Swiss Lightning?

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
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playloud

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Unread post13 Jun 2019, 19:29

doge wrote:Stunning views... 8)

Are those the tears of Gripen fanboys?
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mixelflick

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Unread post14 Jun 2019, 14:13

How does a small, relatively incapable fighter wind up with so many fan(boys)? And how does the F-35 wind up with so many detractors, especially at the stage its at??

Is SAAB's PR dept that good?
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marsavian

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Unread post14 Jun 2019, 14:19

Maybe it's the David vs Goliath syndrome where people are rooting for the underdog. I like both fighters so I don't get involved in the back and forth unless discussing interesting technical issues.
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playloud

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Unread post14 Jun 2019, 16:41

marsavian wrote:Maybe it's the David vs Goliath syndrome where people are rooting for the underdog. I like both fighters so I don't get involved in the back and forth unless discussing interesting technical issues.

I definitely think this is the case. Following BF4C for quite some time now, it is quite amusing.

Some of the claims I have seen made... wow.

- The Gripen C (small legacy radar) can see farther than an E-3 Sentry.
- The Gripen C (small legacy radar, not stealth) vs F-35 (larger AESA radar, stealth). If they were pointed at each other, the Gripen would see the F-35 on radar before the F-35 would see the Gripen.
- When LM/USAF/Pilot makes a claim about the F-35, they're lying! When Saab/SwAF/Pilot makes a claim about the Gripen, it's either gospel, or they are actually understating how awesome it is!

A few years ago (when I first found the group), a common argument was the F-35 isn't ready, so it should be disqualified as a choice. But then when you ask them which platform they prefer, it's the Gripen E! YEARS BEFORE ITS FIRST FLIGHT. I had to remind them why they thought the F-35 shouldn't be considered.

Some of them seem to think the Gripen E is going to be supercruising around with a 900 nmi combat radius. Try to explain that the jet can't supercruise with external tanks, and that it's supercruise speed of Mach 1.1 is a terrible place to be for gas mileage. It usually falls of deaf ears.
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ricnunes

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Unread post14 Jun 2019, 16:45

playloud wrote:
doge wrote:Stunning views... 8)

Are those the tears of Gripen fanboys?


LOL, good one! :mrgreen:

marsavian wrote:Maybe it's the David vs Goliath syndrome where people are rooting for the underdog.


Yeah, it's probably like those Hollywood action movies where the "good guy" only armed with a pistol faces a bunch of "bad guys" all armed with assault rifles. :roll:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post14 Jun 2019, 20:02

mixelflick wrote:Is SAAB's PR dept that good?
Underdog syndrome combined with ABJ.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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alex_f

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Unread post15 Jun 2019, 03:48

playloud wrote:A few years ago (when I first found the group), a common argument was the F-35 isn't ready, so it should be disqualified as a choice. But then when you ask them which platform they prefer, it's the Gripen E! YEARS BEFORE ITS FIRST FLIGHT. I had to remind them why they thought the F-35 shouldn't be considered.


Most interesting, as a journo stated today is the following fact: When we voted about the Gripen, they said the aircraft would have been in use by 2018 (!). Now, it's already one year after that promised first into-service-date, and the aircraft is still not ready yet. Maybe the decision not to buy the Gripen was correct, in hindsight.

Now that the French Air Force bought some PC-21, the probabilty of the Rafale is a bit better. After all, it won the first evaluation. A bit embarassing the whole procedure... :doh:
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XanderCrews

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Unread post15 Jun 2019, 15:22

playloud wrote:
marsavian wrote:Maybe it's the David vs Goliath syndrome where people are rooting for the underdog. I like both fighters so I don't get involved in the back and forth unless discussing interesting technical issues.

I definitely think this is the case. Following BF4C for quite some time now, it is quite amusing.

Some of the claims I have seen made... wow.

- The Gripen C (small legacy radar) can see farther than an E-3 Sentry.
- The Gripen C (small legacy radar, not stealth) vs F-35 (larger AESA radar, stealth). If they were pointed at each other, the Gripen would see the F-35 on radar before the F-35 would see the Gripen.
- When LM/USAF/Pilot makes a claim about the F-35, they're lying! When Saab/SwAF/Pilot makes a claim about the Gripen, it's either gospel, or they are actually understating how awesome it is!

A few years ago (when I first found the group), a common argument was the F-35 isn't ready, so it should be disqualified as a choice. But then when you ask them which platform they prefer, it's the Gripen E! YEARS BEFORE ITS FIRST FLIGHT. I had to remind them why they thought the F-35 shouldn't be considered.

Some of them seem to think the Gripen E is going to be supercruising around with a 900 nmi combat radius. Try to explain that the jet can't supercruise with external tanks, and that it's supercruise speed of Mach 1.1 is a terrible place to be for gas mileage. It usually falls of deaf ears.



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I guess I need to make my way back over to BF4C....

Image

just gotta get dressed
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ricnunes

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Unread post15 Jun 2019, 15:35

alex_f wrote:Most interesting, as a journo stated today is the following fact: When we voted about the Gripen, they said the aircraft would have been in use by 2018 (!). Now, it's already one year after that promised first into-service-date, and the aircraft is still not ready yet. Maybe the decision not to buy the Gripen was correct, in hindsight.


I'm glad that you mentioned the above.
In another thread in same this forum I stated exactly that - that the Gripen E was supposed to be in service by 2019 - but someone with a name started by "lo" and ended by "ke" told me I was wrong and that the Gripen E was supposed to be in service by 2025 but this data was actually anticipated to 2023, LoL!

Anyway, I'm happy because either:
- I'm definitely not wrong
or,
- in the case I'm wrong (which is extremely doubtful) then I'm not the only one (which by its turn makes the chances of being wrong much slimmer) :wink:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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mikc

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Unread post15 Jun 2019, 21:40

ricnunes wrote:
alex_f wrote:Most interesting, as a journo stated today is the following fact: When we voted about the Gripen, they said the aircraft would have been in use by 2018 (!). Now, it's already one year after that promised first into-service-date, and the aircraft is still not ready yet. Maybe the decision not to buy the Gripen was correct, in hindsight.


I'm glad that you mentioned the above.
In another thread in same this forum I stated exactly that - that the Gripen E was supposed to be in service by 2019 - but someone with a name started by "lo" and ended by "ke" told me I was wrong and that the Gripen E was supposed to be in service by 2025 but this data was actually anticipated to 2023, LoL!

Anyway, I'm happy because either:
- I'm definitely not wrong
or,
- in the case I'm wrong (which is extremely doubtful) then I'm not the only one (which by its turn makes the chances of being wrong much slimmer) :wink:


Let's keep our facts straight, can we. It's just a google away, so I guess it's the second alternative.

https://www.fmv.se/en/News-and-media/Ne ... of-Gripen/

"FMV has signed an agreement with Saab to develop and modify 60 JAS 39 Gripen E for the Swedish Armed Forces. The agreement also includes provisions for new production of the JAS 39 Gripen E to Switzerland, provided that Switzerland decides to acquire the Gripen. Deliveries will start in 2018 and are scheduled to continue until 2026."

Delivery, not in service and yes according to that schedule it's a year late by now but the February 2013 contract between SAAB and FMV stipulated that 60 Gripen C´s would be modified with the first delivery being in the last quarter of 2018, that contract was modified several times on the initiativ of FMV and ended up being for the delivery of 60 entirely new builds, the first delivery being in the third quarter of 2019.
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jetblast16

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Unread post16 Jun 2019, 01:10

Have F110, Block 70, will travel
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ricnunes

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Unread post16 Jun 2019, 14:17

mikc wrote:Let's keep our facts straight, can we. It's just a google away, so I guess it's the second alternative.

https://www.fmv.se/en/News-and-media/Ne ... of-Gripen/

"FMV has signed an agreement with Saab to develop and modify 60 JAS 39 Gripen E for the Swedish Armed Forces. The agreement also includes provisions for new production of the JAS 39 Gripen E to Switzerland, provided that Switzerland decides to acquire the Gripen. Deliveries will start in 2018 and are scheduled to continue until 2026."

Delivery, not in service and yes according to that schedule it's a year late by now but the February 2013 contract between SAAB and FMV stipulated that 60 Gripen C´s would be modified with the first delivery being in the last quarter of 2018, that contract was modified several times on the initiativ of FMV and ended up being for the delivery of 60 entirely new builds, the first delivery being in the third quarter of 2019.


And could we stop playing with "semantics", can we?

Yes, "semantically" you may be correct that first deliveries may not directly correspond to initial in service date (or an IOC) however deliveries mean production aircraft and NOT prototypes (which is the only thing that exists regarding the Gripen E and only two of them exist).
So there's still no production Gripen E in existence which means that the program is at least 1 year delayed as you even admitted it - and I seriously bet that it will be more than this or the delay will be quite more than a single year.
But even thou, in programs that don't run on concurrency (like supposedly the Gripen E) the first deliveries aren't usually much/that earlier from an IOC (or something that resembles it).

The end result is that now in 2019, the Gripen E program is delayed and due to this Saab doesn't have any Gripen E to show/demonstrate to the Swiss and hence why it's now out from the Swiss competition, period.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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gc

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Unread post16 Jun 2019, 16:42

Not exactly a respectable source seeing how they sensationalise known F-35 issues recently. But it provides a glimpse of the swiss perspective. Seems like SAAB is spinning it their way on the removal of the Gripen from the competition.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... raft-race/
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Corsair1963

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Unread post17 Jun 2019, 06:00

Why isn't the F-15EX not in the Swiss Fighter Contest? If, it is sooo capable as it's supporters claim! :|
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spazsinbad

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Unread post17 Jun 2019, 06:25

Corsair1963 wrote:Why isn't the F-15EX not in the Swiss Fighter Contest? If, it is sooo capable as it's supporters claim! :|

For same reason the GRIPPING is NOT in the competition? Paper Planes NOT allowed in the Swiss Chocolate Factory. :roll:
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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