Commander Naval Air Forces wants more F/A-18s

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marauder2048

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Unread post12 Feb 2018, 09:57

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that the J-20 would ever be carrier capable
only that it has long range and could be buddy refueled by the J-15s.
The PLAN's apparent shift to CATOBAR carriers makes a mission tanker
of some form seem not unlikely.

The viewpoint that the J-20 has long-range maritime strike capability comes from
a RAND 2015 paper "The PLA and China's Rejuvenation." It's been echoed in other
analysis I've seen from RAND.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post12 Feb 2018, 10:04

marauder2048 wrote:To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that the J-20 would ever be carrier capable
only that it has long range and could be buddy refueled by the J-15s.
The PLAN's apparent shift to CATOBAR carriers makes a mission tanker
of some form seem not unlikely.

The viewpoint that the J-20 has long-range maritime strike capability comes from
a RAND 2015 paper "The PLA and China's Rejuvenation." It's been echoed in other
analysis I've seen from RAND.



I understood your remarks. Yet, many believe the J-20 will be the next Naval Fighter for the PLAN. I was just expressing my opinion. That I didn't believe that to be the case......
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Unread post13 Feb 2018, 21:23

Most of this post is elsewhere: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=53856&p=388271&hilit=SFIM#p388271
Pentagon Budget 2019: US Navy requests 29 F-35s
13 Feb 2018 Pat Host

"...The USN is requesting 24 Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet fighters in FY 2019, 10 more than the service requested in FY 2019. The navy said in its budget overview book that its strike fighter inventory management (SFIM) strategy remains challenged with Super Hornet aircraft that reach the end of their service lives before sufficient F-35 aircraft can be delivered into service...."

Source: http://www.janes.com/article/77856/pent ... s-29-f-35s
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 02:49

In the PB released Monday, the Navy is requesting a new MYP for purchasing 72 Super Hornets between FY19-21. MVP IV will cover 24 jets per year for 3 years, at an average cost saving of 9% under the MYP. Additional jets are planned after MYP 4 expires. Flyaway Unit Cost in FY19 is $68,643,542 for the F/A-18E/F in the Block 3 configuration. For comparison, Flyaway Unit Cost for F-35C in FY19 is $120,992,667. F-35Cs are roughly 60% more expensive than the F/A-18E/F.
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 03:49

Don't forget to add LTP, pylon, EFT, CFT, EWP, IRST, etc costs.

btw, They will not be Block 3. The $51 mil is just to make them compatible with an eventual Block 3 upgrade.
FY2019 Non-Recurring costs support Block III production NRE to integrate network infrastructure and cockpit station improvements into production aircraft. Funding request is based on Rough Order of Magnitude (ROM) pricing.


Block 3 will not finish development & testing until Q4 2023.... by which time the F-35 will already be on Block 4.2 and have gone through Tech Refresh 3.
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 04:01

Who nose to what 'maus92' refers so I'll just doddle along with 'wotIfind' HOKAY.... Be Prepared. I started here: [& I see 'SWP' has jumped in with good stuff afore me] This is fun fun fun - there at least a ZILLION documents to look at etc.

Fully searchable justification material available at:
http://www.secnav.navy.mil/fmc/fmb/Page ... -2019.aspx

http://www.secnav.navy.mil/fmc/fmb/Page ... -2018.aspx & I'll look here:
http://www.secnav.navy.mil/fmc/fmb/Page ... -2019.aspx BUT Youse Could Look Elsewhere.... meanwhile:
Highlights of the Department of the Navy FY 2018 Budget
FY 2018 Department of the Navy Budget

"AIR OPERATIONS Active Tactical Air Forces
The budget provides for the operation, maintenance, and training of nine active Navy Carrier Air Wings (CVWs) and three Marine Corps Air Wings in FY 2018, as reflected in Figure 21. Challenges persist Navy and Marine Corps strike-fighter mission capable aircraft inventories. The F-35C carrier variant provides a multi-role stealthy strike fighter to complement the F/A-18. Until F-35C aircraft are available in required numbers, the Navy plans to mitigate the inventory challenge with service life extension of legacy F/A-18 A-D airframes to 8,000-10,000 hours (over original design of 6,000 hours) and procurement of additional F/A-18E/F aircraft. Extension of legacy Hornet life requires additional inspections and deep maintenance that were not originally envisioned for the aircraft. Average repair time has significantly increased because of required engineering of unanticipated repairs, material lead times, and increased corrosion of airframes. Throughput at Navy aviation depots alone is insufficient to improve mission capable inventories to required levels." page 34-35

Source: http://www.secnav.navy.mil/fmc/fmb/Docu ... s_book.pdf (4.7Mb)

Another link: http://www.secnav.navy.mil/fmc/fmb/Docu ... _Brief.pdf (2019 7.5Mb)

Someone got there panties in a twist in the 2019 Budget Highlights [& LAFFs] PDF.
AIR OPERATIONS Active Tactical Air Forces
"The budget provides for the operation, maintenance, and training of nine active Navy Carrier Air Wings (CVWs) and three Marine Corps Air Wings in FY 2019. Challenges persist with Navy and Marine Corps strike‐fighter mission capable aircraft inventories. The F‐35C carrier variant provides a multi‐role stealthy strike fighter to complement, but not replace, the F/A‐18. [WAIT - Wut?!] Until F‐35C aircraft are available in required numbers, the Navy plans to mitigate the inventory challenge with service life extension of legacy F/A‐18 A‐D airframes to 8,000‐10,000 hours (over original design of 6,000 hours), Service Life Modification (SLM) of F/A‐18E/F to 9,000 hours, and procurement of additional F/A‐18E/F aircraft. Extension of legacy Hornet life requires additional inspections and deep maintenance that were not originally envisioned for the aircraft. Average repair time has significantly increased because of required engineering of unanticipated repairs, material lead times, and increased corrosion of airframes. SLM combines a service life extension with a capability upgrade to a Block III configuration for the F/A‐18E/F."

Source: http://www.secnav.navy.mil/fmc/fmb/Docu ... s_book.pdf (7.4Mb)
Attachments
USN2019pressBriefAircraftBuy.gif
USN2019BudgetHighLightAircraftBuy.gif
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maus92

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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 04:59

SpudmanWP wrote:Don't forget to add LTP, pylon, EFT, CFT, EWP, IRST, etc costs.

btw, They will not be Block 3. The $51 mil is just to make them compatible with an eventual Block 3 upgrade.
FY2019 Non-Recurring costs support Block III production NRE to integrate network infrastructure and cockpit station improvements into production aircraft. Funding request is based on Rough Order of Magnitude (ROM) pricing.


Block 3 will not finish development & testing until Q4 2023.... by which time the F-35 will already be on Block 4.2 and have gone through Tech Refresh 3.


What's your source for Q4 2023 - are you sure that's for new jets, or SLM jets?

"Block III will be initially introduced through new aircraft off the line, followed by the Block II to III conversions, Gillian says. The president’s fiscal year 2018 budget funded 80 Super Hornets over the next five years, with 14 aircraft in FY2018 and 66 new Block III aircraft spread across FY2019 through FY2022." [The number of jets planned between FY19-22 has increased to 93.]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ng-444447/

"Speaking at the company's St Louis facility in Missouri, Larry Burt, director of Global Sales & Marketing for the Global Strike division, said that, while the USN's focus is currently on the Block 3 upgrade that it set to begin rolling off the production line in 2020, further enhancements are very likely as the USN looks to maintain the combat aircraft in service out into the 2040s."

http://www.janes.com/article/70504/boei ... -platforms

FY19 jets start to be delivered in January 2021.
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 05:11

maus92 wrote:In the PB released Monday, the Navy is requesting a new MYP for purchasing 72 Super Hornets between FY19-21. MVP IV will cover 24 jets per year for 3 years, at an average cost saving of 9% under the MYP. Additional jets are planned after MYP 4 expires. Flyaway Unit Cost in FY19 is $68,643,542 for the F/A-18E/F in the Block 3 configuration. For comparison, Flyaway Unit Cost for F-35C in FY19 is $120,992,667. F-35Cs are roughly 60% more expensive than the F/A-18E/F.

The link to this information would be useful or otherwise are YOU imagining it? Liars Dice 101.
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 05:46

USN R&D Book 7, starting on Page 145.

Basically, Block 3 is not a singular upgrade, but a series of already planned (ie IRST, radar upgrades, etc) updates combined with new items (ie Conformal Fuel Tanks, new cockpit displays, etc). These items are called ECPs (Engineering Change Proposals) and are added as their individual development is done.

Future integrated Carrier Air Wing CONOPS demand certain changes to the base line Block II Super Hornet. In response, the Block III Super Hornet is submitted. While none of the changes to the aircraft are considered revolutionary, the combined impact to the capability of the aircraft and its contribution to the Airwing are significant. The initial F/A-18 Block III concept includes low risk changes which can be incorporated in the near term with a combination of forward fit production line incorporation and via retrofit modifications to the aircraft already planned as part of the Service Life Modification (SLM) Plan. The FY19 budget request funds NonRecurring (NRE) for these ECPs.

....

F/A-18 Block III is a series of several of Engineering Change Proposals (ECPs) that bring several planned upgrades to the F/A-18E/F. The combined impact of these upgrades brings significant capability to the aircraft. Block III is a follow-on to Block II upgrades. The FY18 budget request funds Non-Recurring Engineering (NRE) for these ECPs which include Advanced Network Architecture, aircraft Signature Enhancements, Advanced Cockpit Displays, and Conformal Fuel tanks.
http://www.secnav.navy.mil/fmc/fmb/Docu ... 7_book.pdf


Before you ask, the "F/A-18 Block III" line item is only for the HArdware that is not related to the IRST or Radar (as they have their own line items). Also, there is no mention of Enclosed Weapon Pods, a MAWS, internal IRST, or improved engines.

Image

As you can see in the following pic, the Software drop "H20" will start IT in 2022 and based on the timeframe of HT18, it will not release from OT until 2026, assuming it's the last H drop that relates to Block 3.

{sorry, I posted the wrong pic, it's fixed now}
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Last edited by SpudmanWP on 14 Feb 2018, 07:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 05:57

Still seems a waste to buy more Super Hornets. As the USN is down to just 3-4 Hornet Squadrons. Which, will quickly be replaced with the F-35C's that are coming online in the next few years. Also, the buy rate of 24 F-35C post 2021 means the USN will have enough Lightning in every Wing post 2030. Which, tells me the USN will be replacing Super Hornets after that.....


So, we are buying brand New Super Hornets until the mid 2025 at least. Only to start retiring them post 2030! :doh:


Nothing wrong with upgrading current Super Hornets to Block III. Yet, buying new aircraft is nothing less than Corporate Welfare!
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 06:09

Now I am more confused??? :?
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 07:07

I've seen the F/A-18 Super Duper flyaway cost game played before.

To be clear, what is included with an F/A-18E/F Block III for $69M? Does that figure included the engines? Radar? All avionics? I see that Spud has stated it does not include an IRST, nor EFTs or CFTs.
Take an F-16, add a dollop of A-7, a big gob of F-22, sprinkle on some AV-8B, stir well, then bake. What do you get? An F-35.
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 07:24

Thanks for all that info 'SWP'.
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 07:28

steve2267 wrote:I've seen the F/A-18 Super Duper flyaway cost game played before.

To be clear, what is included with an F/A-18E/F Block III for $69M? Does that figure included the engines? Radar? All avionics? I see that Spud has stated it does not include an IRST, nor EFTs or CFTs.



Let's also not forget that the price of the F-35C is so high. Because the USN keeps ordering very small numbers!
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 07:36

steve2267 wrote:Does that figure included the engines? Radar? All avionics?


It "should" as there are line items for engines, GFE (Government Funded Electronics) and CFE (Company Funded Electronics), etc.

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