Commander Naval Air Forces wants more F/A-18s

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35_aoa

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Unread post09 Dec 2016, 09:47

quicksilver wrote:"...it is much much deeper than that."

That's the kind of thing that is always said. "...it has never been this bad..." Yada yada yada.

Of course it hasn't -- in the experience of those who are seeing it/going through it (for the first time). The reality is that it has been that bad before -- or worse.

Some stick around to make it better...don't they?

:salute:


Never said it hasn't happened before. Of course it has. But I would say it is out of the norm for the last 10-15 years. I'm sure it was way worse in the mid 1970's than it ever will be again to be fair. What I am saying is that we are reaching another crisis of morale. Not naive enough to think it is the first or last, but at the moment, there are a lot of folks that are legitimately frustrated with the way things are going, rather than just looking to seize a better opportunity on the other side. I should hope some stick around to make it better. Out of curiosity, during what timeframe were you a (USMC right?) aviator?
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quicksilver

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Unread post09 Dec 2016, 13:57

"Never said it hasn't happened before."

I didn't say you did; I said those are the kinds of statements that are always made. And next-below are two more you uttered from the pantheon of "woe is us...life sucks in Naval Aviation" --

"But I would say it is out of the norm for the last 10-15 years...What I am saying is that we are reaching another crisis of morale."

I was prepared to rest my case and then you followed up with another gem --

"There are a lot of folks that are legitimately frustrated with the way things are going..."

What? Not enough people thanking you for your service? (sarcasm intended). All those brand-new/well-maintained Super Hornets getting boring for you these days? Seriously though, there are always things to be frustrated about; that's the nature of the career drill. Wanna be frustrated? Stick around for command. Have you been in command yet? Will you be competitive for command? To those who are getting ready to step over the side because "lots of folks...are frustrated", I recommend they think very rationally about the reasons why. There are plenty of good reasons to get out; 'being frustrated' isn't one of them. Wanna see 'frustrated?' You should see some of the silliness that goes on in corporate America. Frustration foments emotion; emotion clouds judgment.

"...rather than just looking to seize a better opportunity on the other side."

I was very clear that there are a host of reasons that cause people to walk, and I would add the truism, 'different strokes for different folks.'

In these 'out' cycles, there is always lotsa group-think going on. People should be careful about the group-think they choose to participate in because as frustrated as they might be, it always gets better. Remember, group-think never feels like group-think while you're in it -- the implicit rationalization being 'everyone is doing it.'

I was prepared to step in the late 80s/early 90s during a previous airline hiring binge. All of the same things were being said, "we're frustrated, etc etc etc." I was fortunate to have had leaders around whom I could talk to -- who had weathered their own mid-career crises back in the day -- who helped me understand the frustrations of the moment (however valid they might have been) in-context. My conclusion/realization was that I was simply going to take my frustrations with me to some other pasture, and in the process irrevocably walk away from alotta stuff that I really, really enjoyed and had worked very hard to be very very good at. I chose to stay and am thankful to this very moment that I did.

Never had another frustration in my entire career. :wink:
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35_aoa

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Unread post10 Dec 2016, 00:06

quicksilver wrote:I was prepared to rest my case and then you followed up with another gem --

"There are a lot of folks that are legitimately frustrated with the way things are going..."

What? Not enough people thanking you for your service? (sarcasm intended). All those brand-new/well-maintained Super Hornets getting boring for you these days? Seriously though, there are always things to be frustrated about; that's the nature of the career drill. Wanna be frustrated? Stick around for command. Have you been in command yet? Will you be competitive for command? To those who are getting ready to step over the side because "lots of folks...are frustrated", I recommend they think very rationally about the reasons why. There are plenty of good reasons to get out; 'being frustrated' isn't one of them. Wanna see 'frustrated?' You should see some of the silliness that goes on in corporate America. Frustration foments emotion; emotion clouds judgment.



All fair points. I also didn't intend to say that I'm someone who feels that way specifically. Just voicing the thoughts of a lot of friends (though I do see certain big Navy decisions as being bothersome, as well as more cultural things like our zero defect mentality that is slowly creeping through the service). And I agree that there is probably a large amount of, as you called it, "group think" leanings towards departing the service. I was actually thinking about that very thing today.

For the record, if nobody ever thanked me for my service again, it would be no skin off my back. I hope none of us are doing this for the "thank you's"…...
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maus92

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Unread post10 Dec 2016, 02:51

58 Super Hornets recommended for the FY2018 Budget

Outgoing SecNav Mabus' budget memo for the incoming Trump Administration is asking for 58 more Super Hornets, no mention of F-35Cs, except to highlight their delays:

"WASHINGTON, D.C. — Outgoing Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus has crafted the Fiscal 2018 Department of the Navy budget submission in line with the stated goals of the new Trump administration rather than the priorities of the current Department of Defense, according to a memo Mabus sent to Pentagon leaders on Thursday.....

"The Navy also added, “a number of items to its budget, including 58 F/A-18 Super Hornet strike fighters, six P-8A maritime multi-mission aircraft and $14 billion in readiness accounts...."

"Ahead of the Trump Pentagon, [VCNO] Moran said the service was working to get its priorities set to present to the new administration.

“When we are asked, we want to have our ducks in a row and end up with priorities that are important with the near term and the far term of the Navy and we’re working on the list,” he said.

“Maintenance and modernization of both ships and submarines and aircraft are at the top of our list. In the strike fighter shortfall world, we need to keep buying Super Hornets to offset the delay in F-35 and the material condition of our current fleet. Those are things we can execute tomorrow. Putting money into readiness, addressing some of our shortfalls in our bases, building munition stocks we have taken risks… those are things we would try to buy back given a higher topline.”"

https://news.usni.org/2016/12/09/navy-b ... s-pentagon
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marauder2048

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Unread post10 Dec 2016, 04:18

Maus92's selective quoting and highlighting omitted the crucial point from the Mabus memo:


"You and I both know that this budget is almost totally a symbolic one, given the time this Administration has left in office."

"You" in this case is SecDef Carter.

Heck, I'm sure we wouldn't begrudge Mabus a few Super Bugs if he got his way on abolishing DOT&E.
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popcorn

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Unread post10 Dec 2016, 04:51

Trump should consider keeping Bob Work around to help the new SECDEF in his transition and even longer if possible. The DoD needs strategic thinkers and not more bureaucrats. He knows where the holes are as well.

https://news.usni.org/2016/12/06/depsec ... capability
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XanderCrews

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Unread post10 Dec 2016, 06:56

35_aoa wrote:So while I don't largely disagree with you, I'd argue a couple counterpoints if you will hear me out…..

1) I hope we aren't legitimately, when all is said and done, complaining about range. The -35C has a lot of gas compared to the F/A-18, even an -E, and it has a lot less drag without externals. I think we will be fine in that respect.

2) I too think that the USN should have left OEF/OIF (particularly OEF) about 10 years before they actually did. I flew an OEF mission on the last day the Navy ever flew one from a CVN, and that was in 2014. It was, as you stated, an absurd use of assets from my perspective as a fleet pilot. With that having been said, a former CAG did say that the DoD had determined that it was actually cheaper to use Navy assets and tankers than it was to land base everyone (specifically in Afghanistan) and pay for overland fuel trucks through Kyber pass/etc. I don't know how true that is, but I can see it being somewhat truthful. That also doesn't take into account the extreme $$$'s spent in flying a fleet of newish super hornets into the ground. Not all were, but many were. That is the biggest mismanagement I see, and why that particular line of thinking may have been flawed when we talk about the forest vs the trees.

3) I saw first hand how having a CVN can be a significant advantage over land based assets. We were on station flying over Iraq within about 30 hours when ISIS was lighting refinery fires and closing in on Baghdad. Granted we *did* have USAF tanker support, but the calculus is more complex than that. It was months before USAF strike assets were authorized by their host nations to launch on offensive missions with ordnance loaded. Meanwhile we were flying in country every day, all day, with weapons and no restrictions. We also didn't require the tanker bridge and massive airlift effort that took place for over a month after we were already there and ready. Even the forward deployed USMC assets were subject to the same host nation restrictions. A VFA squadron from my airwing ended up dropping the first bombs that kicked off what would become OIR months later. I thought that experience was pretty neat. We aren't the answer for every scenario, but the CVN/CSG is a nice tool to carry in your diplomacy quiver. I will never go so far as to say we are a replacement for the massive amount of assets that the USAF can put in theater, but we are a pretty good first responder.

Just some thoughts to marinate on. I think we are generally arguing the same thing, but that's my perspective. As an aside, I was in a briefing with the CNO and CNAF yesterday, and it was pretty interesting to hear their perspectives. They are smart dudes, and pretty reasonable in my estimate. Hopefully that will carry forth into the next administration, even if you don't agree with some of the "social" policy decisions that have come out of the Pentagon as of late.



Didn't get a chance to thank you for taking the time here. Appreciate it. I can't respond at the moment but the insight is invaluable
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post10 Dec 2016, 06:58

maus92 wrote:we need to keep buying Super Hornets to offset the delay in F-35


Funny how he does not mention that it was the DoD that delayed the F-35C's (as well as all the F-35's) ramp-up.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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XanderCrews

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Unread post10 Dec 2016, 15:50

58? Well it's Christmas time lol
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quicksilver

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Unread post10 Dec 2016, 18:45

SpudmanWP wrote:
maus92 wrote:we need to keep buying Super Hornets to offset the delay in F-35


Funny how he does not mention that it was the DoD that delayed the F-35C's (as well as all the F-35's) ramp-up.


No, actually it has been the Navy that has 'delayed' F-35C. Their position is but another in a long line of self-licking ice cream cones.

Notably, they now find themselves aligned programmatically with that staunch advocate for the western alliance, Justin Trudeau.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post10 Dec 2016, 20:08

quicksilver wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:
maus92 wrote:we need to keep buying Super Hornets to offset the delay in F-35


Funny how he does not mention that it was the DoD that delayed the F-35C's (as well as all the F-35's) ramp-up.


No, actually it has been the Navy that has 'delayed' F-35C. Their position is but another in a long line of self-licking ice cream cones.

Notably, they now find themselves aligned programmatically with that staunch advocate for the western alliance, Justin Trudeau.


OUCH
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optimist

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Unread post11 Dec 2016, 07:27

my take on it is that the USN will take them in 3f. Unless things have changed, block 4/5 is where they get the maritime kit and weapons they want. So there may be a gap, besides simply numbers, that the fa-18 can fill?
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Unread post11 Dec 2016, 08:37

3F will have the JSOW-C which is enough to get the job done for the Classic Hornets that it is replacing when it comes to a "maritime" mission not to mention Paveways.
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Unread post11 Dec 2016, 11:44

If 3f gives then what they want. Then I can't think of a reason to buy fa-18 over f-35 now. as the delivery will be in the same time frame, It must be politics
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cosmicdwarf

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Unread post11 Dec 2016, 14:34

optimist wrote:If 3f gives then what they want. Then I can't think of a reason to buy fa-18 over f-35 now. as the delivery will be in the same time frame, It must be politics

The part that maus ignored in the same sentence was that they also need them to replace current equipment. Basically they Navy wants more Super Hornets so they have more Super Hornets later as some of the older ones age out faster than they wanted.
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