Denmark reconsidering JSF?

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hb_pencil

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Unread post16 Mar 2013, 18:57

XanderCrews wrote:
hb_pencil wrote:
popcorn wrote:Why is the Rafale excluded?


This is partly conjecture/ fact/ rumor; Dassault seems to be really cagey at marketing the Rafale vs the F-35. They did not compete in the Japanese or Korean competition. They weren't too welcoming to the Canadians' request for information during the initial stages of the NGFC.

lookieloo wrote:So... when do we get the Canadian/Dutch/Danish workshares back stateside?


You can have them when we chose something else. Not before, as specified in the MOU.


When does the "now or never" point hit for F-35 partners that are supposed to be building the thing, but don't think they need to buy it anyway?


Legally? That's a bit of a grey area in the MOU. I suspect the spirit of the MOU suggests when RDT&E ends and the aircraft is accepted, as a number of mechanisms come into place in the program. Even then its not exactly clear as it hinges on one not that well worded paragraph in the MOU. In a way, you can buy just one F-35 and meet your MOU obligations, but no country would ever dare to do that.

In practice this is all moot. Industrial considerations are secondary to actual defence requirements; a country would decide to purchase long before this occurs based on their actual military considerations.
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Unread post16 Mar 2013, 20:05

Mind you, I know that recently when Australia asked for pricing on more Super Hornets, LM got spooked and started telling direct suppliers to find other industry suppliers then those in Australia.

This was just because Australia simply asked for some pricing (nothing like the extent of what Canada has done). IMHO this was a very stupid thing for LM to do...and they were told so by both the Aust Govt and Industry and as a result have retracted their direction (some US suppliers to their credit also told LM to stop being ridiculous). It does however show how fast things can move on this front. If a partner nation did decide to pull out altogether I think you would find contracts start drying up very quickly for that country's industry.
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Unread post17 Mar 2013, 00:49

Danish Fighter Restart Could Hurt F-35
ANDREW CHUTER | Defense News

"LONDON — Denmark fired the starting pistol on a new competition to replace its aging F-16 fighter jets last week, in a move that pitches European and U.S. companies against the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter for the chance to snare one of the troubled program’s partner nations as a customer."

"“It’s yet another test of whether a small country wants to keep the code of coalition war-fighting and U.S. commonality, or whether it wants to simply look for having a modest airpower capability at a lower price,” said Richard Aboulafia, vice president for analysis at the Virginia-based Teal Group think tank.

“The conundrum is being faced by a lot of countries. Unfortunately for Lockheed Martin, a lot of them are F-35 countries, Canada being the perfect example,” he said.

Countries such as Denmark and Canada “might just look more at bang for buck rather than keeping that code,” Aboulafia said."

"Aside from the other competitors, Dassault Aviation’s position with the Rafale fighter is unclear, but a spokesman for the French company said if the “conditions are such that there is an open competition for an alternative to the F-35, we will obviously be a candidate.”"

"“Everybody is having to justify their procurements, and a competition involving the F-35 will either provide ammunition to those who say it is too expensive or even those who say it may be more expensive than we want, but it remains the aircraft we require,” he said."

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2013 ... CFRONTPAGE
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Unread post17 Mar 2013, 00:58

Fingers crossed for an actual F-35 vs Eurofighter vs Rafale vs Superhornet flyoff.

We can finally put all the blustering to bed. :)
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Unread post17 Mar 2013, 01:03

SpudmanWP wrote:Fingers crossed for an actual F-35 vs Eurofighter vs RAfale vs Superhornet flyoff.

We can finally put all the blustering to bed. :)


Nah, because even when the F-35 wins they will say that there were special issues...or that the competition was rigged...or that LM bribed their way...or...
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Unread post17 Mar 2013, 20:52

gtx wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Fingers crossed for an actual F-35 vs Eurofighter vs RAfale vs Superhornet flyoff.

We can finally put all the blustering to bed. :)


Nah, because even when the F-35 wins they will say that there were special issues...or that the competition was rigged...or that LM bribed their way...or...

None of these type fly offs are done 1v1, like Rhino vs F-35.

I realize its not always the case, but fly offs are usually just to verify performance for the customer (USAF, Indian AF etc.), and not a direct challenge for air superiority.

Lets assume the F-22 is off the table. The F-35 is the best jet out there for countries that can get past the sticker shock, followed by a F/A-18E/F. The Su-30 has some advantages in speed, range etc. but doesn't have the avionics suite that the Block II F/A-18 has, and the avionics systems are not fully integrated.
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Unread post17 Mar 2013, 21:10

gtx wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Fingers crossed for an actual F-35 vs Eurofighter vs RAfale vs Superhornet flyoff.

We can finally put all the blustering to bed. :)


Nah, because even when the F-35 wins they will say that there were special issues...or that the competition was rigged...or that LM bribed their way...or...


Agreed. governments signing on after the initial partners hasn't helped the F-35 in the court of public opinion.
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Unread post18 Mar 2013, 15:49

More from Flight Global:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ht-383554/

As noted earlier, Dassault have not been invited.
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Unread post18 Mar 2013, 15:52

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Unread post20 Mar 2013, 21:05

Bunch O'stuff here FITER NORDIC: http://www.fighternordic.com/MediaCenter.aspx Fighter Nordic 2013 is sponsored by Saab
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Nordic Air Forces to Address Urgent Airpower Capability at Copenhagen Summit 03/20/2013 PR Newswire Europe

https://research.zecco.com/research/quo ... =undefined

"...Identifying the shared need for a capable multirole fleet, Denmark has since reopened the competition to supply its air force with thirty new fighters, notifying Boeing, Eurofighter and Saab to pitch proposals. Lockheed Martin's Joint Strike Fighter programme office will also be reaffirming their interest in this project.

Additionally, in recent weeks, both the Supreme Commander of the Swedish Armed Forces and an academic report announced that the current defence budget is leaving Sweden unable to effectively defend itself, forcing the government to reconsider its expenditure. One of the major shortfalls was found to be the number of fighters the country has to secure its airspace. Read more on this development here: http://www.fighternordic.com

The conference will also see representatives from Canada, the US, the UK and France, with discussion revolving around future multinational defence capabilities and investment...."
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Unread post09 May 2013, 21:56

Danish Chief of Defense: Fighter Replacement on Track

Finding a design that is used by many partners would be a positive in the eyes of the Danish military, he added.

“There will be tons of parameters,” Bartram said. “But if you’re looking at the smart defense aspect, it will be an advantage in that very focused area. Of course it will have an impact.”

That may give the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter an edge in the competition. In his speech, Bartram identified the US, UK and France as the three biggest allies for the Danish military, and both the US and UK plan to purchase large numbers of F-35s.


http://www.defensenews.com/article/20130509/DEFREG/305090013/Danish-Chief-Defence-Fighter-Replacement-Track
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Unread post09 May 2013, 22:08

Repost 'in the right country' thread - please forgive me DaneLanders....

Danish Chief of Defence: Fighter Replacement on Track 09 May 2013 By AARON MEHTA
"WASHINGTON — Denmark’s ranking military officer “strongly believes” his country will settle on its next-generation fighter design by mid-2015, expressing confidence in a timetable laid out earlier this year.

“I don’t sense any weaknesses in having this decision,” Gen. Peter Bartram, Danish chief of defense, said this morning. “I believe it will be there.”

Holding to that date is important as the life-cycle costs on the F-16 will reach untenable levels within the next decade, Bartram said.

“The reason why 2015 is relevant is, we all know it takes time to implement a new type of aircraft,” he said. “I can look at the life-cycle cost of my F-16s, which have been brilliant aircraft, and it is becoming extremely expensive.”

“I could probably prolong the time the F-16 could be active, but the spare parts, the logistics and the cost of having to keep them operational” would quickly become too expensive, he said. “We need to move forward.”

Bartram made his comments during an event hosted by the American-Danish Business Council at the Danish Embassy in Washington....

...Finding a design that is used by many partners would be a positive in the eyes of the Danish military, he added....

...That may give the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter an edge in the competition. In his speech, Bartram identified the US, UK and France as the three biggest allies for the Danish military, and both the US and UK plan to purchase large numbers of F-35s.

The JSF also has the advantage of economic ties to Denmark. The country is one of eight partner nations involved in funding the fifth-generation jet, and Denmark’s largest defense company Terma is part of the global supply chain for the fighter. Norway and the Netherlands, which share a water border with Denmark, are also partners on the program...."

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2013 ... ment-Track
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Unread post14 May 2013, 15:34

Oh well - that is that then. China knows all the F-35 secrets via Denmark.... they should throw in the towel... nice.

Chinese hack new Danish super fighter project in China, Denmark / by Anders Holm Nielsen / on May 14, 2013
"As a replacement for the current F16 fighter jet long found in the Danish air force, talks have been to buy the new Joint Strike Fighter Jets, but according to NATO and the American Congress, confidential information about the jets have been systematically hacked by China from the spring of 2009 to the fall of 2012, reports the Danish post Jyllands-Posten....

...”It is a problem that the Chinese might know about the weaknesses of the jet. Of course that could be used in a potential conflict,” said Thomas Elkjer Nissen, an expert in strategic communication at the Academy of Defense....

...”Purchasing new fighter jets is a very large and comprehensive investment. From a Danish point of view, one should ask critical questions of how many states have obtained information about the Joint Strik[en] Fighter program and how much information how much information that has been leaked about the actual jet,” he said.

The Chinese espionage is reported to have started in 2009...."

http://scandasia.com/chinese-hacks-new- ... er-project
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Unread post01 Sep 2013, 20:07

And the beat goes on.... Another long article about all the hoohaa required in mid 2015.... Best read at source.

Denmark Prioritizes Jobs in New Fighter Competition 01 Sep 2013 GERARD O’DWYER
"HELSINKI — Job creation will stand as the chief factor when the Danish government convenes to select a replacement type for its aging F-16 fleet in mid-2015...."

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2013 ... /309010008
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Unread post01 Sep 2013, 22:25

spazsinbad wrote:And the beat goes on.... Another long article about all the hoohaa required in mid 2015.... Best read at source.

Denmark Prioritizes Jobs in New Fighter Competition 01 Sep 2013 GERARD O’DWYER
"HELSINKI — Job creation will stand as the chief factor when the Danish government convenes to select a replacement type for its aging F-16 fleet in mid-2015...."

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2013 ... /309010008
Employment? Well, that puts the F-35A ahead same as Korea's hard price ceiling put SE out front there. Really hard to beat the JSF in terms of longevity/volume-of-production. Lots of jobs that will be around for a long time building lots of parts, especially after Canada pulls out.
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