Denmark reconsidering JSF?

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hatchet

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Unread post04 Dec 2005, 01:43

Apparently, we've requested information about the JAS-39, that Gripen International have happily given. Article on Gripen.com

:cheers:
Martin
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boff180

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Unread post04 Dec 2005, 10:34

They also requested an RFI from Eurofighter last month :)

And Norway are making a decision in the next 12 months of F-35 or Typhoon... which may be Typhoon as they already have a substantial workshare on it without committing to orders.

Also, the US may have shot themselves in the foot over exporting the F-35... this article appeared in the Sunday Times today:
Britain in battle with US over fighter plane
Peter Almond and Dominic O'Connell

BRITAIN is threatening to pull out of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), a co-operative combat-aircraft project with America that is one of the largest military programmes in the world.

The move, confirmed to The Sunday Times by senior defence officials, could have serious repercussions for BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce, Britain’s two main contributors to the project.

BAE is part of the consortium developing the plane, and had expected revenues of about $24 billion (£13.8 billion) in development and production contracts.

Rolls-Royce is developing the lift fan for the vertical take-off version, and is working with its American rival, General Electric, on an alternative engine for the aircraft.

The JSF is a versatile plane aimed at replacing several types of aircraft currently in use, and could achieve total sales of more than $300 billion, according to some forecasts.

While the development is being driven by the Pentagon, it is being built by a multinational team in which Britain is the sole “Tier One� partner. The government has already provided $2 billion in development funding, and had been slated to buy 150 aircraft for the RAF and Royal Navy.

But Britain is now threatening to withdraw after rows over the Pentagon’s reluctance to agree to the transfer of technology, and because of likely increases in the price of each plane.

According to senior Ministry of Defence officials, instructions have been given for alternative strategies for projects affected by American technology- transfer problems, the most important of which is the JSF.

Dropping the JSF would stun the defence industry, but a senior official told The Sunday Times it was time to “think the unthinkable�. “I know how the Americans negotiate,� said the official. “They will not do a deal unless they know the other side has a serious alternative. It’s like a high-stakes poker game . . . it’s essential to have a Plan B because it’s very important not to travel in hope.�

The JSF was to have equipped the Royal Navy’s two new aircraft carriers. The “Plan B� being worked on is a version of the Eurofighter Typhoon adapted for the navy. The Typhoon recently entered service with the RAF after long delays and cost overruns.

Defence-industry sources say negotiations on the “Tranche 3� Eurofighter contract, under which Britain will take the last 88 of the 232 orders, now encompassed the issues needed to be addressed to make the aircraft fly from a carrier.

Sources close to the Eurofighter programme say there are no major obstacles to the operation, although some elements of the carrier design would have to be changed.

BAE Systems is likely to stand behind the government’s tough line on the negotiations with the Americans. The company is eager to secure more defence technology to allow it to play a full role in the JSF programme if it continues.

But Rolls-Royce could be an early casualty. Defence-industry sources in Washington said last week that the US budget row could threaten funding for the F-136 engine that it is developing in conjunction with General Electric.


Andy
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locum

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Unread post04 Dec 2005, 11:05

At friday 18 november 05, Norwagian deputy secretary of Defense Espen Bath Eide told the press, that the government is reconsidering the participation in the JSF program.
In June'05, the Norwegians already cutback their annual contribution to the JSF by 50% and increased their investment in the further development of the Eurofighter Typhoon.
Bath Eide said that the decision for a new tactical fighter in 2008, will based on financial-economical reasons rather than foreign-political reasons.

US Deputy secretary of Defense Gordon England stated recently to his Dutch collegue Cees van der Knaap, that the Pentagon is reconsidering the JSF project.
Van der Knaap was told that the JSF program will be cut partially or totally, the final decision will be taken at the end of February 2006 by the Pentagon.

C. van der Knaap told the Dutch press, that their purchase of a new fighter will be done in 2 batches and the total number of planes will go down from 80/85 to approx 66.
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Unread post04 Dec 2005, 11:19

The only one who will benefit from either choices are BAE as they hold stakes in all 3; Gripen, Typhoon and the F-35.
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Unread post05 Dec 2005, 06:04

Martin, the Gripen is a very affordable and effective fighter for the money. No shame in some JAS-39C's on the ramp!

Andy, I think the UK is posturing (not that I wouldn't, too). They want full transfer of technology and control (therefor competition for LM) on their F-35's and the US is balking in making BAE any more competitive with US companies than it already is. The Typhoon is a great jet but anytime you decide to make a CV variant of a land based design it:
1) Never goes well (look at the T-45 Goshawk)
2) Never is cheap
3) Never happens quickly
A Naval Typhoon would arrive many years after a F-35C and be much more expensive (No shared R&D costs, 2 motors vice one). It sure won't be faster or cheaper for the UK, but if the US refuses to totally share (which might not be in their best interest) it might be in the UK's best interest to pay the extra to go it alone.
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Unread post05 Dec 2005, 10:56

Damn, BAE is practically an American company anyway ;)

Seeming as there is now a British JSF thread I'll reply to the subject there, but I can't disagree with Velvet (though I never realised there were issues with the Goshawk - not that I ever looked TBH)
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Unread post10 Dec 2005, 04:12

For the money the Gripen is an awesome jet. From what I hear, its very reliable. So we cant blame the guys from Denmark. A few other countries are also thinking of dropping the F35.
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Unread post10 Dec 2005, 04:57

The problem with the F-35 is it meets the A-G capabilities required by the US military, and therefore, is easy to sell here, the original target audience. However, the A-A capability of the F-35 is not what other countries are expecting for a 5th generation fighter, and every country out there has learned that you need a good air dominance fighter to maintain air superiority in a warzone. This makes some of the aero-amazing designs of foreign competetors very appetizing. IMO had they just given the F-35 TV then it would be easy to convince people to buy it. A stealth fighter that can turn on a dime. But I think many foreign governments are reluctant that stealth allone can single handidly make something a good defense fighter.

-Aaron
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Unread post10 Dec 2005, 07:00

But I think many foreign governments are reluctant that stealth allone can single handidly make something a good defense fighter.


So u think that it is LO that is the only thing going for the F-35?? What about the top Notch avionics suite giving it tremendous situational awareness and Integration of avionics coupled with a 4th generation Active Radar (while the competition is slowly working its way into developing a first generation active fighter radar)...All in all the F-35 is a neet little machine even for a2a ops..Low RCS combined with a relatrivly drag free (compared to ext storage) airframe (2 9x's) and top notch avionics and radars..HMD's are a great leveler .. If people tend to give the mig-21 a fair chance against a f-15 (re cope india) with HMS and HOBS then the JSF is definately gonna get an advantage from this!!!..Looking around at its competition I see no western aircraft other then the F/a-22 that currently uses thrust vectoring (harrier aside)..None of the eurocanards have it and they seem to be doing just fine..If u want a stealth fighter that is hands down point blank a2a sniper then u do need to spend that 119 million and get the f/a-22 however if u want a stealthy airframe coupled with top notch avionics and radar and want flexibility at a price which u can afford (Relativly) then u go in for the F-35..It gives nothing away in BVR (second only to the F/a-22) while can still hold its own in WVR thx to HMS and HOBS missile (the odds of comming out alive of a WVR are not as good as it is - too many variables)...Come 2015-2020 any country using such fighters as EF typhoon , rafale , F-35 , PAKFA will/should have atleast some sort of AEW or GBR system going in for it and should atleast hold plenty of BVR assets otherwise the entire objective of getting these fighters is pointless...The entire objective of these fifth generation fighters is to make it harder and harder for the other guy to take you into the WVR regime and deal with u there..I aint saying that WVR combat is gonna get less important however comparitive to say the flanker,Eurofighter,gripen,rafale and other legacy jets the only Place where the F-35A is found wanting (relativly found wanting) is in the last regime of the episodal/transition of a2a combat which is the WVR regime...Now it is easy to say that it lacks TVC and straight up pointability however u need to get it to WVR first and lets see wether those above mentioned assets can get it there consistently (Surviving BVR (Both ways) ) ROE's aside :D ...

JSF: Integrated Avionics Par Excellence

http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/av/show_mag.cgi?pub=av&mon=0903&file=0903jsf.htm


Anyway The J-UCAS would be equiped with a new Fluidic Thrust Vectoring Nozzel (yaw only) similar and comparable to those researched in the past but only fraction of their weight and much more long lasting...Given the ammount of Viper upgrades we've esen over the years i wouldnt be a bit surprised to see such a system adopted onto the F-35 in the future...
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Unread post10 Dec 2005, 22:40

In the above mentioned link to JSF: Integrated Avionics etc., they write about 'intuitive tactical picture on the cockpit display' and in the section "Wrapping Sensors Up" they write about 'tactical decision aids' 'planners'.
Is artificial intelligence/ expert system software applied in the F-35 and what about the F-22? In the second half of the eighties DARPA started research projects in which artificial intelligence was applied: Autonomous Land Vehicle; Battle Management System, an electronic tactician on board of aircraft carriers; and the Pilot's Associate, a 'virtual second crewmember'.
Because in those Internet Jets just 1 pilot will fly & fight in all-weather multi-role missions and he/she will deal with a flood of info.
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Unread post12 Dec 2005, 21:45

TenguNoHi wrote:The problem with the F-35 is it meets the A-G capabilities required by the US military, and therefore, is easy to sell here, the original target audience. However, the A-A capability of the F-35 is not what other countries are expecting for a 5th generation fighter, and every country out there has learned that you need a good air dominance fighter to maintain air superiority in a warzone. This makes some of the aero-amazing designs of foreign competetors very appetizing. IMO had they just given the F-35 TV then it would be easy to convince people to buy it. A stealth fighter that can turn on a dime. But I think many foreign governments are reluctant that stealth allone can single handidly make something a good defense fighter.

-Aaron



Turning to the uber-nth degree is over-rated considering high end HOBS-helmet heater combos will be common. The nozzles are just yet one more thing that would be a maintenance task for not enough payback on the expense. Any turning ability a F-35 has.... or has not... will have to wait for real flight testing. Considering it would be doing A2A as a clean config vs a legacy jet that might or might not, have draggy stores, I don't see much of a problem. However the design indicates it will be the Buick of Stealth ( you did want a inexpensive jet did you not? ) :lol:
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Unread post13 Dec 2005, 16:34

Buick of stealth...Thats a good one ELP..
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Unread post14 Mar 2013, 19:17

The Danish government have announced that they are restarting the process to select the next fighter aircraft after it was put on hold back in 2010. In short they are including four candidates, namely the FA-18E/F, F-35, JAS-39 and the EuroFighter

http://www.fmn.dk/nyheder/Pages/Valgetafnytkampflystarterigen.aspx In Danish
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Unread post15 Mar 2013, 03:56

lamoey wrote:The Danish government have announced that they are restarting the process to select the next fighter aircraft after it was put on hold back in 2010. In short they are including four candidates, namely the FA-18E/F, F-35, JAS-39 and the EuroFighter

http://www.fmn.dk/nyheder/Pages/Valgetafnytkampflystarterigen.aspx In Danish


"Round up the usual suspects..." :)
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Unread post15 Mar 2013, 04:20

popcorn wrote:
lamoey wrote:The Danish government have announced that they are restarting the process to select the next fighter aircraft after it was put on hold back in 2010. In short they are including four candidates, namely the FA-18E/F, F-35, JAS-39 and the EuroFighter

http://www.fmn.dk/nyheder/Pages/Valgetafnytkampflystarterigen.aspx In Danish


"Round up the usual suspects..." :)


:lol:

One things is for sure, if the F-35 wins it won't mean anything. However if it loses its a indictment against the entire JSF program, and another contribution to its inevitable cancellation

:lol:
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