Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

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marsavian

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Unread post03 Jan 2020, 18:36

The article mentioned superior performance as in payload and range i.e. a rangy bomb truck that can also be quite quick and agile once ordnance is dropped. I suppose they don't feel that intimidated by Syrian S-300 to want an exclusive 5th gen fleet going forward. They also implicitly want to be able to touch Iran with standoff weapons. This also tells me that there would be an export market already lined up for a much longer range PCA in the future i.e. F-15 replacements.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post03 Jan 2020, 20:19

steve2267 wrote:The only parts of an F-15IA purchase that makes any sense to me is reports that the Israelis can much more easily integrate their own toys onto the F-15, a second seat from which to operate said toys, and possibly being able to carry some weapons that cannot be toted by the F-35 (GBU-28?). [gravity nuke?]

Now... if Israel has created a tanker version of the F-15, from which they plan to refuel Adirs on their way to the Persian sandbox... then I say have at it. Boing can lug mo gas for LM. :devil: But then I kinda woulda expected there to have been a Super Duper order... :drool:

ADIRs do not have probes to be refuelled from any SupaDupa. How will an F-15 be modified to carry a boom for refuelling?
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steve2267

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Unread post03 Jan 2020, 20:33

spazsinbad wrote:
steve2267 wrote:The only parts of an F-15IA purchase that makes any sense to me is reports that the Israelis can much more easily integrate their own toys onto the F-15, a second seat from which to operate said toys, and possibly being able to carry some weapons that cannot be toted by the F-35 (GBU-28?). [gravity nuke?]

Now... if Israel has created a tanker version of the F-15, from which they plan to refuel Adirs on their way to the Persian sandbox... then I say have at it. Boing can lug mo gas for LM. :devil: But then I kinda woulda expected there to have been a Super Duper order... :drool:

ADIRs do not have probes to be refuelled from any SupaDupa. How will an F-15 be modified to carry a boom for refuelling?


STOP making sense! You're ruining my meme! :doh:

:bang:
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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wrightwing

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Unread post03 Jan 2020, 21:33

steve2267 wrote:The only parts of an F-15IA purchase that makes any sense to me is reports that the Israelis can much more easily integrate their own toys onto the F-15, a second seat from which to operate said toys, and possibly being able to carry some weapons that cannot be toted by the F-35 (GBU-28?). And from a kinematic performance point of view, I don't see why an F-35 could not be certified to carry any store by the F-15, but maybe there are some really long toys that might require the F-15's larger size. Dunno.


The only thing that's currently stopping F-35s from carrying GBU-28s, are funding/integration priorities. The inner hardpoints, are capable of handling GBU-28s.
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steve2267

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Unread post03 Jan 2020, 22:03

wrightwing wrote:The only thing that's currently stopping F-35s from carrying GBU-28s, are funding/integration priorities. The inner hardpoints, are capable of handling GBU-28s.


Weight wise, I agree with you. Are there any "length" issues? Only thing I see as potential show stoppers could be carry aerodynamics (e.g. unexpected buffeting of horizontal stabs) or separation dynamics. But even then, I think those risks are minimal.

Only other thought that occurs to me has to do with how/where do you want to use your stealth assets? I recall the Dutch (or was it Norwegian?) exercise in Arizona where four F-35's "opened a wormhole" through which attacking F-16's flew. The eight defending F-16's never saw the attacking Vipers on radar, and did not know they were being jammed / manipulated. From that perspective, do you want to use your F-35's to haul bombs (stealth negated with GBU-28's hanging on pylons), or let the Eagles haul the iron, and Lightnings escort the Eagles, and do other things like take down IADS and conduct ISR? But if we're talking new jets... and the F-35's cost less per plane... I dunno. It's beyond me.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post04 Jan 2020, 00:59

steve2267 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:The only thing that's currently stopping F-35s from carrying GBU-28s, are funding/integration priorities. The inner hardpoints, are capable of handling GBU-28s.


Weight wise, I agree with you. Are there any "length" issues? Only thing I see as potential show stoppers could be carry aerodynamics (e.g. unexpected buffeting of horizontal stabs) or separation dynamics. But even then, I think those risks are minimal.

Only other thought that occurs to me has to do with how/where do you want to use your stealth assets? I recall the Dutch (or was it Norwegian?) exercise in Arizona where four F-35's "opened a wormhole" through which attacking F-16's flew. The eight defending F-16's never saw the attacking Vipers on radar, and did not know they were being jammed / manipulated. From that perspective, do you want to use your F-35's to haul bombs (stealth negated with GBU-28's hanging on pylons), or let the Eagles haul the iron, and Lightnings escort the Eagles, and do other things like take down IADS and conduct ISR? But if we're talking new jets... and the F-35's cost less per plane... I dunno. It's beyond me.


Image

The GBU-28 is damn near the length of the F-15 fuselage...
Image
I am no flight or aerodynamic whiz. I am just a former army ground pounder with a fascination for modern western military air power.

Also I've never heard about that event with Norwegian F-35s. I would very much like to read about it. Got any article links?

The current situation in the ME is indeed a very hot flash point right now. I believe the F-35 has capabilities head and shoulders above just about anything out there. Sending up a flight of F-35s and have them make a show of force would send a powerful message to Iran. Send them up in stealthy configurations and ghost Iranian radar sites.
Send some rapid Raptor package for good measure.
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marsavian

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Unread post04 Jan 2020, 01:55

Re: Dutch (two) F-35 EW vs (eight) F-16

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=54012

download/file.php?id=26975
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steve2267

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Unread post04 Jan 2020, 06:20

charlielima223 wrote:
Also I've never heard about that event with Norwegian F-35s. I would very much like to read about it. Got any article links?



Charlie, it was the Dutch. I confused the Dutch -- Gladys Knight (& the Pips) -- with Norway -- Dolbe Hanche. (No offense intended!)

What Mars posted...
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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wrightwing

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Unread post05 Jan 2020, 20:55

charlielima223 wrote:


Image
If the mission is bunker busting, then the GBU-28 is absolutely suitable.
The GBU-28 is damn near the length of the F-15 fuselage...
Image
I am no flight or aerodynamic whiz. I am just a former army ground pounder with a fascination for modern western military air power.


The GBU-28 is clearly not almost the same length as the F-15s fuselage. It's not even 1/3 the length. It's obviously not the first choice for a Day 1 mission, but that's not really the point of the discussion.
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Unread post05 Jan 2020, 22:18

wrightwing wrote:
If the mission is bunker busting, then the GBU-28 is absolutely suitable.

The GBU-28 is clearly not almost the same length as the F-15s fuselage. It's not even 1/3 the length. It's obviously not the first choice for a Day 1 mission, but that's not really the point of the discussion.


I was questioning the suitability of an F-35 carrying the GBU-28. Just because it can doesnt mean it should.

All i know is that the GBU-28 is a big-a$$ bomb...

Image
Image

The F-35 has a fairly large iwb for an aircraft of it's size. I dont know if the F-35 is currently cleared to carry any deep pentrating munitions. I would guess F-35Is with deep earth penetrating munitions would be on a top 10 list of capabilities for Israel... especially with current events right now.
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steve2267

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Unread post05 Jan 2020, 22:45

charlielima223 wrote: I dont know if the F-35 is currently cleared to carry any deep pentrating munitions. I would guess F-35Is with deep earth penetrating munitions would be on a top 10 list of capabilities for Israel... especially with current events right now.


I guess it depends on what you mean by "deep penetrating munitions." We know the F-35A/C is cleared to carry the Mk84 / GBU-31 JDAM, so I imagine that includes the BLU-109 (and by extension) the BLU-116 penetrator and BLU-118 thermobaric penetrator. I think the Block IV roadmap listed the GBU-28/B, the 5000lb penetrator, but am not sure. I think from the GBU-28, the US Big Blu series of weapons jumps all the way to the GBU-57/B MOP. Latest versions of the MOP were listed at 37,000lb. All MOPS are too large for the F-35 (should be obvious).

[Edit: corrected typo: changed "A/B" to "A/C"]
Last edited by steve2267 on 06 Jan 2020, 02:43, edited 1 time in total.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post06 Jan 2020, 01:30

We should think low tech raw energy coupled to what we already have off the shelf. Can any production booster take one of those tapered-steel telephone poles to about 300,00 feet and let them impact from a nice vertical vantage point? Roll it out of the back of a C-130, parachutes get it upright, zoom to altitude, flip over, and let gravity do it's thing. This is one situation where DU is perfect for the penetrator role in a shaped charge. We don't want any clowns crawling back into those tunnels when the smoke clears.
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marsavian

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Unread post06 Jan 2020, 01:37

steve2267 wrote:We know the F-35A/B is cleared to carry the Mk84 / GBU-31 JDAM, so I imagine that includes the BLU-109 (and by extension) the BLU-116 penetrator and BLU-118 thermobaric penetrator.


Not internally for the F-35B, did you mean F-35C or externally on the inner pylons ?
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steve2267

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Unread post06 Jan 2020, 02:46

marsavian wrote:
steve2267 wrote:We know the F-35A/B is cleared to carry the Mk84 / GBU-31 JDAM, so I imagine that includes the BLU-109 (and by extension) the BLU-116 penetrator and BLU-118 thermobaric penetrator.


Not internally for the F-35B, did you mean F-35C or externally on the inner pylons ?


My bad: typo. Meant "A/C" rather than "A/B".
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post06 Jan 2020, 03:00

Wonder if the recent events in the Middle East will have an impact on buying any new F-15's???
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