Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

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Corsair1963

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Unread post23 Dec 2019, 01:50

marsavian wrote:I was talking about all roles and how the F-15 can beat the F-35 in all of them from a simple speed / range /payload parameter pov. The F-15EX does not have to carry any speed sapping external stores if the mission requires it. It can fight with internal fuel, recessed missiles and wing missiles and hit Mach 2.5 over short range. It can add CFTs and hit Mach 1.9 with the same missile load out with even more fuel than any F-35 variant. The F-35 does not carry six internal missiles now, that's just a LMT unfunded concept. As to wasting time err that would be you with your continual non-factual biased statements for your obvious dog in this hunt. The rest of us just want to get to the unvarnished facts but we have to constantly wade through those pom-poms you keep waving in our face.


What part didn't you get that the F-15C/EX will "never" reach Mach 2.5??? Nor, will it reach Mach 1.9 with CFT's and a Weapons Load???
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marsavian

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Unread post23 Dec 2019, 02:12

I just produced an official Boeing flight diagram that proved it can do Mach 1.9/2.0 with CFT/sparrows/sidewinders which is an air superiority weapons load. There have also been flight charts posted in this forum that show the F-15 can hit Mach 2.4/2.5 with these same missiles. That's what the official flight charts show and I will believe them before any unproven rantings of a biased lobbyist.

Mach 2.5 from 45000 to 65000 ft for the F-15E with -229, Mach 2.3 at 35000 ft.

Image
Last edited by marsavian on 23 Dec 2019, 03:01, edited 2 times in total.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post23 Dec 2019, 02:24

marsavian wrote:I just produced an official Boeing flight diagram that proved it can do Mach 1.9/2.0 with CFT/sparrows/sidewinders which is an air superiority weapons load. There have also been flight charts posted in this forum that show the F-15 can hit Mach 2.4/2.5 with these same missiles. That's what the official flight charts show and I will believe them before any unproven rantings of a biased lobbyist.



Only one F-15 was ever reached Mach 2.5 to my knowledge and it was a clean development aircraft with no missiles. That was just to confirm it could reach that speed. (requirement)


Nonetheless, it has no practical application in the real world. As you never fly clean in combat. Plus, even if you did you would consume all of your fuel in mere minutes! Nor, can you turn at those speeds....
Last edited by Corsair1963 on 23 Dec 2019, 03:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post23 Dec 2019, 02:38

marsavian wrote:I just produced an official Boeing flight diagram that proved it can do Mach 1.9/2.0 with CFT/sparrows/sidewinders which is an air superiority weapons load. There have also been flight charts posted in this forum that show the F-15 can hit Mach 2.4/2.5 with these same missiles. That's what the official flight charts show and I will believe them before any unproven rantings of a biased lobbyist.

Mach 2.5 from 28000 to 65000 ft for the F-15E with -229.


I suggest you go ask Bazdriver or TEG and quit wasting my time.........
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marsavian

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Unread post23 Dec 2019, 03:18

Carrying 4 recessed amraams (same payload as F-35) there would be no drag penalty for the internal fuel F-15EX so it could hit briefly hit Mach 2.3-2.5 with them for a short very fast intercept, the capability is there if the Israelis need it along with a 1000nm+ radius strike with full fuel and a light bomb load. The Israelis are in continual war, they know what works for them and what they need and I would rather study intently what they say and learn from it rather than second guess and lecture them on their 'misguided' choices as judged by armchair air marshals.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post23 Dec 2019, 03:26

I suggest you read this and in particular the comments made by members like Bazdriver and TEG (that engine guy)
.....


viewtopic.php?t=13446
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charlielima223

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Unread post23 Dec 2019, 03:28

Corsair1963 wrote:
All that matters is how the F-35A and F-15EX perform in the "Real World". :wink:


A more accurate statement is, how will the F-35I and F-15I(X) perform in the real world together. Israel has already used F-35s for combat operations before, with other Israeli aircraft. We all know Israel isn't going to give up their F-15s. So what is the best combination of aircraft for what kind of mission.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post23 Dec 2019, 03:33

charlielima223 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
All that matters is how the F-35A and F-15EX perform in the "Real World". :wink:


A more accurate statement is, how will the F-35I and F-15I(X) perform in the real world together. Israel has already used F-35s for combat operations before, with other Israeli aircraft. We all know Israel isn't going to give up their F-15s. So what is the best combination of aircraft for what kind of mission.



Israel would surely replace all it's F-15's with new F-35's. If, it could only afford too. Regardless, the IAF doesn't need anymore 4th Generation Fighters. It needs as many 5th Generation Fighters (i.e. F-35) as it can get...

Nothing surprising about that......
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Corsair1963

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Unread post23 Dec 2019, 03:39

BTW The second hand fighter market will soon be flooded with old F-15's. Which, Israel could easily acquire and upgrade to boost the current fleet.


Which, they're already doing.........


Israel Is Treating America's Throwaway F-15D Eagles As New Found Treasure

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/1 ... d-treasure


F15IX.png
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marauder2048

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Unread post23 Dec 2019, 03:39

Building an argument with charts based around the "US Standard Day" for the Israeli climatic context is a bit suspect.
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charlielima223

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Unread post23 Dec 2019, 03:49

Corsair1963 wrote:
As the Eagle will still have to carry external pylons and weapons and usually "external fuel". At very least a single centerline fuel tank. This dramatically impacts the performance of the F-15C or F-15EX.

Also, the F-35A can carry "six" internal Air to Air Missiles. This and the other points I've made are well known to this forum. Yet, you make a claim you know to be wrong! In addition the US is developing new Air to Air Missiles that are half the size of the Amraam but with similar range. This will increase the load from 6 -12 more than enough for any mission.


Even with 1 centerline tank and 6 air to air missiles, an F-15 is still pretty fast. With CFTs and 6 air to air missiles, I'd wager an F-15I will still outrun an F-35I with full internal in the long run. Also the F-35 cannot carry 6 internal AAMs yet, nor do SACMs exist yet. An outsider trying to look in would see an F-15I being upgraded to EX specs would be better in short term and the F-35 better in the long run. Also one thing I am seeing in this discussion/debate is no mention of the improved engine F-15Is might/could get and more importantly the tactics the Israeli Airforce use...
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charlielima223

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Unread post23 Dec 2019, 03:54

Corsair1963 wrote:BTW The second hand fighter market will soon be flooded with old F-15's. Which, Israel could easily acquire and upgrade to boost the current fleet.


Which, they're already doing.........


Israel Is Treating America's Throwaway F-15D Eagles As New Found Treasure

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/1 ... d-treasure


F15IX.png


So wouldnt it be cheaper and quicker to modify those aircraft to the F-15I or IX standard? Im not seeing any report about F-35Is replacing Israeli Eagles... it would appear their F-35Is are replacing their F-16s.
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marsavian

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Unread post23 Dec 2019, 04:08

Corsair1963 wrote:I suggest you read this and in particular the comments made by members like Bazdriver and TEG (that engine guy)
.....

viewtopic.php?t=13446


Very interesting thread (thanks) which in conclusion states that Mach 2.5 was just a one minute transient capability as indicated by the F-15E color speed chart above. Mach 2.3 was the sustainable maximum for both airframe and engines as well as for firing missiles. So with Amraams, Mach 2.3 for internal fuel, Mach 1.9 for CFT, these are still superior kinematically to F-35 for just getting to a point in the air faster to launch your missiles at incoming missiles/aircraft.
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steve2267

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Unread post23 Dec 2019, 04:47

Does the USAF or IAF (or anyone, for that matter), fly F-15E's (or the equivalent) in an operational context without EFT's (either a centerline, or two wing tanks)?

Missing from this brouhaha is any discussion of the poor SA an F-15E crew has compared to a Lightning driver. (That is, unless the IAF has incorporated some secret Israeli avionics that adds MADL (or the equivalent) to it's F-15's along with a bunch of other avionics.)

In the context of Israel in this discussion, I question whether the IAF has the physical space to accelerate an F-15 to 2+ Mach in any meaningful context. Maybe if they start over the Mediterranean and get a running start. The only other possibility that I can think of is if they were defending a multiple prong attack and had to shift fighters from, say the Sinai, to the Golan or vice-versa. But if Eagles are carrying any external bags of gas to give them maximum time on station, then they are going to be slower than Lightnings.

Israel is going to do what Israel is going to do, despite what any here may think they should do. Twill be interesting to see what they do do. And any explanations they offer by way of explanation.

IMO, any notional 1000+nm mission radius for an Eagle is only meaningful if they can haul a GBU-28 (or two) that distance -- and then only if they have added CFT's to the Lighting so they can escort the Eagles and SEAD/DEAD the battlespace ahead of the Eagles.

Perhaps this "test" F-35I being delivered to Israel in the 2020 or 2021 timeframe will be used by the IAF to clear F-35I for external carriage of the GBU-28 and/or addition of CFTs?

If Israel can scarf up F-15D's at a song, with decent airframe life left, and mod them to their needs, that would seem to be far more cost effective than adding F-15EX's at a price higher than new F-35I's, not to mention the Lightnings are available today, and the EX Eagle is what -- 4 or 5 years away?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post23 Dec 2019, 05:02

marsavian wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:I suggest you read this and in particular the comments made by members like Bazdriver and TEG (that engine guy)
.....

viewtopic.php?t=13446


Very interesting thread (thanks) which in conclusion states that Mach 2.5 was just a one minute transient capability as indicated by the F-15E color speed chart above. Mach 2.3 was the sustainable maximum for both airframe and engines as well as for firing missiles. So with Amraams, Mach 2.3 for internal fuel, Mach 1.9 for CFT, these are still superior kinematically to F-35 for just getting to a point in the air faster to launch your missiles at incoming missiles/aircraft.


The tread about the F-15's Maximum Speed made it clear the F-15 doesn't even fly around at Mach 2.3 (Sustainable Top Speed) Nor. does it support that a combat loaded Eagle with CFT's could maintain Mach 1.9 let alone for any useful period.

What you believe and what actually is are two very different things........... :doh:
Last edited by Corsair1963 on 23 Dec 2019, 05:13, edited 1 time in total.
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