Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

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weasel1962

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Unread post21 Nov 2018, 09:27

steve2267 wrote:Within the context of Israel wanting additional F-15's, this desire may very well stem from the need to carry 5,000lb munitions such as the deep penetrating GBU-28.

From the last Weapons Carriage Requirements slide I had downloaded from this forum, the GBU-28 does not appear to be slated for carry by the F-35. So if Israel needs to deliver those somewhere, the F-15 appears to be their ride.

Based on comments by Gunn, Berke, Mau et al, it seems clear that the F-35 has much better legs than the F-15C. However, even if the GBU-28 could be carried by the F-35, and while there does not appear to be any show-stopper preventing the Lightning from being able to do so -- other than dot-your-i-and-cross-your-t's engineering work, it is not clear the F-35 with GBU-28's would have better range than F-15E's hauling one or two GBU-28's with external 600gal tanks. (As I'm editing this post for written clarity... the only thing that causes me pause is... the GBU-28 is quite long: could there by any fitment / separation issues / aero issues with such a long munition extending backwards from the F-35 wing towards the stabilator?)

From what I can tell, an F-15E may be able to haul
  • two GBU-28 on STA 2 & 8 with a 600 gal tank on STA 5 for 27430lbs of gas total --OR--
  • one GBU-28 on STA 5 with two 600 gal tanks on STA 2&8 for 31510lbs of gas total

I have no idea how far a Strike Eagle could deliver that payload, or how it would compare to an F-35 with two GBU-28's on STA 3&9.

But in the context of why Israel may be interested in more F-15s... it may be to lug GBU-28's around Iran...


Looks like 3 GBU-28s on the new F-15s.
http://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingd ... poster.pdf

http://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingd ... raphic.pdf

Good to know IF some of the comments on this forum are accurate (present company excepted) that the F-35s have a unrefuelled combat radius greater than 1,100nm and can do loiter of 1-2 hours at 1,000nm from base since they have longer legs than the F-15...... :bang:
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marauder2048

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Unread post21 Nov 2018, 10:05

GBU-28 wouldn't have been particularly useful even against the deeper bunkers Hezbollah dug 15 years ago.

A state with access to modern tunneling and earth moving equipment/materials can readily outdig and
outharden the penetrating capability of a 5,000 lb weapon.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post21 Nov 2018, 10:27

The F-35's inner most pylons can carry 5,000 lbs class weapons. So, the GBU-28's wouldn't be a problem. This whole idea that the F-15 can carry a heavier payload than the F-35 at greater range. Isn't supported by the facts....


Also, many factors that haven't even been touched on. For example price....no new version of the F-15 Strike Eagle has come under $100 Million. Also, does anybody believe the total cost of ownership of the F-15 with two F100/F110's is cheaper than the F-35 to operate and maintain??? (I don't)


In short the F-35 would be cheaper to own and operate. Being "twenty" times more capable with internal stores. Now with external stores the difference is negligible at best......


As I have said before only way I see Israel acquiring New F-15's. Is under considerable pressure from the US. In order to keep the St Louis Production Line going.....Yet, it hardly has anything to do with merits of the F-15 over the F-35. (laughable)
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chucky2

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Unread post21 Nov 2018, 16:55

weasel1962 wrote:
Looks like 3 GBU-28s on the new F-15s.
http://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingd ... poster.pdf

http://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingd ... raphic.pdf

Good to know IF some of the comments on this forum are accurate (present company excepted) that the F-35s have a unrefuelled combat radius greater than 1,100nm and can do loiter of 1-2 hours at 1,000nm from base since they have longer legs than the F-15...... :bang:


That second pdf is interesting for the IRST. They didn't put a pod on there and have the line go to that, they make it look as if the F-15 Advanced has a under nose mounted window solution like F-35 does. Has anyone heard of that before?
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post21 Nov 2018, 17:08

Chalk it up to artistic license as the other pdf clearly shows the IRST mounted in the left pylon above the Sniper pod (ie "Tiger Eyes").
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Unread post21 Nov 2018, 17:13

I find the range and loiter figured highly suspect. One, it doesn't mention any loading configuration. Two, it indicates a drastic, and I do mean drastic, improvement over the F-15E, which can only loiter for 3hrs at 150nm with 4 AAMs, CFTs, and wing tanks.

The IRST is in the pylon of the targeting pod.

*Edit* The loiter figure I listed is for retaining the wing tanks throughout the mission. IF we assume they are dropped when empty, then maybe we can get a loiter of 3hrs at 200nm with a light air to air load.
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Unread post22 Nov 2018, 16:28

IDF: No decision on advanced F-15s as yet
22 Nov 2018 Yaakov Lappin, Tel Aviv and Jeremy Binnie

"Israel has not made a final decision on acquiring a more advanced version of the Boeing F-15 multirole fighter, the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) told Jane's. "All possibilities regarding this issue are under IDF, IAF [Israeli Air Force], and the defence establishment's examination, and their position has yet to be decided," the IDF said in a statement on 20 November.

The Ynet news website reported on 19 November that there had been an official announcement that the IAF would acquire a more advanced version of the fighter called the F-15IA in addition to more Lockheed Martin F-35s, 50 of which have already been ordered.

It indicated that the F-15IA is the Israeli designation for the F-15 Advanced Eagle. A Saudi version called the F-15SA is already in production and Qatar has ordered one called the F-15QA, the main difference between the two being the Qataris have opted for the Large Area Display cockpit made by the Israeli company Elbit.

Ynet said there was initially US opposition to Israel's acquisition of the F-15IA if it resulted in a reduction of Israel's F-35 order. It cited a document approved by Defence Minister Avigdor Lieberman shortly before he resigned on 14 November as saying that the IAF still intends to field three F-35 squadrons, each with 25 aircraft...."

Source: https://www.janes.com/article/84771/idf ... 15s-as-yet
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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jakobs

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Unread post22 Nov 2018, 18:14

Israel won't buy any more F-15's until the line is closing for real. That's when they will order them. Until that it will just be talks about it.
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Unread post21 Jan 2019, 11:57

Wild weekend over Damascus, Israel Air Force bombed multiple targets, including a couple of Pantsirs. Contrary to the previous years when attacks were neither denied nor confirmed, this time IDF not only acknowledged attacks but also revealed quite interesting details, like the fact Syrians were told Israel was afrer Iranian targets and that no harm would come their way if they stay put. Obviously they didn't, and as a result we have another round of self-proclaimed world's best air defense systems vs actual world's best air force.

IDF Twitter:
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1087208743018917888

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1087208824182919168

Video:


Also allegedly Iranian forces launched a SSM which was intercepted by Iron Dome over Mount Hermon ski resort:
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1087208734298906625

According to the video published, two Pantsir (TEL vehivles) were destroyed, and it is even more amusing that the first Pantsir was distinctly aware of the fact it was targeted - at least two SAMs were launched, all in vain, as the the first TEL explodes even before the PGM that video comes from hits.

Allow me to post a couple of snippets from "KBP Tula" website:

Local armed conflicts of recent years (Iraq 1991, 1998 yrs., Yugoslavia 1999) distinctly demonstrated that modern means of air assault striking the entire depth of country's territory are capable of achieving their main task — destroying its military capability and industrial base without conducting a wide-scale ground campaign.
Keeping that in mind a question is due: is it presently possible to create an effective and resilient SAM system, and what traits should it have?
The answer is clear: certainly it is. However such a SAM system should have the following attributes:

- EA resistant in severe EW environment;
- ensure survivability in case of massed attack with PGMs (i.e. ARM "HARM");
- ensure physical destruction of PGMs - CM "Tomahawk", GBU "Walleye 2", AGM "Maverick" etc.;
- ensure destruction of airplanes, helicopters, UAVs etc.;
- be effective in every time of day and in easy and difficult weather conditions;
- be highly mobile, especially while providing cover for mechanized and armored units;
- be highly combat ready and reliable;

[...]

SAA/M «Панцирь-С1» — leading SHORAD system of the world. It is the embodiment of every principle a modern SAA/M must have according to the concept (see above) envisioned in our KBP, thus making it superior to every foreign competitor. It has filled the previously missing link in the IADS, that ensures their fullest efficiency and resilience against EA and air attack and adaptability of the entire IADS in the quickly changing realm of air attack munition specifications and tactics of their employment. All in all, due to high tactical-technical specifications and high level of adaptability of the C2 system in various combat environments achieved in SAA/M «Панцирь-С1» makes it one of the most promising intelligent weapon systems of the XXI century.

http://www.kbptula.ru/index.php/ru/razr ... pleksy-pvo

Quite telling that the "most intelligent" SAM system is supposed to intercept AGM-62 Walleye. The two SAMs that veered wildly off course either means that 1) not so resilient against EA 2) "high level of automation" does not mean crews of SAA "qualification" can operate this kind of weapon 3) EO fire control channel is sh*t, can be jammed or was not made available to the export customers.
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ricnunes

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Unread post21 Jan 2019, 18:00

hythelday wrote:Wild weekend over Damascus, Israel Air Force bombed multiple targets, including a couple of Pantsirs. Contrary to the previous years when attacks were neither denied nor confirmed, this time IDF not only acknowledged attacks but also revealed quite interesting details, like the fact Syrians were told Israel was afrer Iranian targets and that no harm would come their way if they stay put. Obviously they didn't, and as a result we have another round of self-proclaimed world's best air defense systems vs actual world's best air force.

IDF Twitter:
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1087208743018917888

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1087208824182919168

Video:


LOL, there's goes the myth that Super Uber Pantsir shots down every incoming missile, bomb or otherwise any other aerial weapon. :roll: :mrgreen:

Two missiles shot at relatively good range (for a short defense system) against a straight flying and potentially high RCS weapon which could be either a Dalilah cruise missile or a GBU-15 (since IMO, this seem to clearly be a Man-in-the-loop weapon and these are probably the most used of such weapons within the Israeli arsenal) and all of them MISSED!

Imagine what would be the "performance" of those Pantsirs against low RCS (and small) weapons such as SDB's - They would be get with their "Pantsies down" :devil:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post21 Jan 2019, 18:07

Not to mention SDBs "escorted" by MALD-Js.
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hythelday

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Unread post21 Jan 2019, 18:32

To be fair Russians manage to shoot down small drones over Khmeimim (after a couple of incidents) and even systems with poor specs can score a hit (F-117 incident, or Israeli Sufa that crashed over Israel as a result of S-175 (or was it S-200?) last year), given the right combination of skill, luck and targeted aircraft negligence.

However this a third destroyed Pantsir on video (probably more) which means it's neither an easy to use, nor super effective system against first grade opponent, even when *potentially* supported by all the C2 and early warning the S-300/400 system provides.

This yet again reinforces the notion that IADS loses to a persistent and well-equipped air force, which is good news for NATO air forces, and potentionally bad news for the navies.
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Unread post21 Jan 2019, 23:40

A lot of SAMs doing some strange things in Syria lately, wonder if F-35s are lurking in the background doing their best Growler impersonation on Syria's IADS. It's like giving your old 4th gen air force protective hidden angels magnifying their effectiveness and F-35s are all over the world now projecting their power.
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Unread post22 Jan 2019, 00:25

Is that an open door I see on the SA-22? Looks like the driver was smart enough to leg it out of there.
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steve2267

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Unread post22 Jan 2019, 05:44

marsavian wrote:A lot of SAMs doing some strange things in Syria lately, wonder if F-35s are lurking in the background doing their best Growler impersonation on Syria's IADS. It's like giving your old 4th gen air force protective hidden angels magnifying their effectiveness and F-35s are all over the world now projecting their power.


We have already read the account by the Danish Colonel about his flight of Lightnings protecting / hiding a flight of four Vipers from an inbound OPFOR of Vipers. This Syrian account seems in line with some of that Lightning goodness...
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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