Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2016, 18:34
by neptune
Israel holds firm on increasing F-35 purchase

15 April, 2016 BY: Arie Egozi, Tel Aviv

Israel's desire to acquire additional ..F-35 is likely to be advanced even if Washington does not agree to increase the level of Foreign Military Financing (FMF) made available to the nation. The Israeli government has asked its US counterpart for a 10-year FMF package that will include an annual grant of $4.1 billion. Negotiations are continuing in an effort to reach agreement while US President Barack Obama is still in office.

However, speaking on 13 April, Israeli sources said the purchase of additional F-35s is "already in the pipeline", regardless of whether the requested funding increase is approved.

Israel has signed contracts for the purchase of 33 conventional take-off and landing F-35As. ..and deliveries are expected to begin early next year. The Israeli air force .. with the further units to enable it to equip two squadrons.

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/israel-holds-firm-on-increasing-f-35-purchase-424268/

......I believe this is the first time for the Israeli F-35 program where they are showing an "evident" interest in the F-35 by spending Israeli money (not in the FMF budget). Has this occurred in previous types, F-15/16s ???

Perhaps a moment of pause for the program doubters, when a user who will "fight" with the a/c pays for additional a/c.
A bit different from those who will cruise around in "airshows (a-a intercepts/ escorts)" or engaging only ground pounders.

:)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2016, 18:48
by vanshilar
neptune wrote:Perhaps a moment of pause for the program doubters, when a user who will "fight" with the a/c pays for additional a/c.
A bit different from those who will cruise around in "airshows (a-a intercepts/ escorts)" or engaging only ground pounders.


Not really, for them any politicians/military brass who want the F-35 were obviously paid off by LockMart, so to them this just means LockMart paid them more and now they're going to go back to the government to wring more money out of the taxpayers.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2016, 23:57
by les_paul59
Haha, so true vanshilar....What the basement dwellers don't realize is the fact that the Israelis are buying the f-35 is one of the greatest endorsements of its capability.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Apr 2016, 04:18
by XanderCrews
vanshilar wrote:
neptune wrote:Perhaps a moment of pause for the program doubters, when a user who will "fight" with the a/c pays for additional a/c.
A bit different from those who will cruise around in "airshows (a-a intercepts/ escorts)" or engaging only ground pounders.


Not really, for them any politicians/military brass who want the F-35 were obviously paid off by LockMart, so to them this just means LockMart paid them more and now they're going to go back to the government to wring more money out of the taxpayers.



The goal posts shift all the time. First it was "let's see what the test pilots say!" Then they approved. So it was "let's see what the operational pilots say!" Then they approved so it was "let's see what the F-22 pilots say!" And they approved. then it shifTed with the A-10 to "well let's see what the grunts say!" And the JTACS and A-10 guys approved. Hell even the DOT&E guys are saying F-35 is going to be great. The international partners especially israel which is well respected approve.

So they are all bribed now lol

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2016, 19:57
by spazsinbad
Israel prepares ground for F-35I testing
31 May 2016 Arie Egozi

"The Israeli air force's chief flight test engineer wants an early as possible delivery of its Lockheed Martin F-35 test asset, to expedite the process of adapting locally-produced weapon systems to the aircraft.

Israel's contracts for the F-35I "Adir" include a test example, which will be operated by its flight-test centre.

According to the centre's chief flight-test engineer – identified only as Lt Col Ori – the test aircraft will also have an operational capability, but its main duty will be to enable the development of Israeli systems to enhance the F-35's combat capabilities for Israel.

"We will have to test Israeli-made weapons systems, so that they can be carried in the weapons bay of the aircraft – and test it under different situations," he says.

Israel's first two F-35s are scheduled to land in the nation on 12 December. Adaptations for its air force include enabling the fighter to carry Rafael's Python 5 and Derby air-to-air missiles, along with the same company's Litening 5 targeting pod.

Another six F-35s will be delivered to Israel in 2017, with its air force having so far committed to acquiring an additional 25 conventional take-off and landing examples."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ng-425887/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2016, 01:23
by spazsinbad
It’s two weeks to the touchdown of the world’s most advanced fighter jet in Israel.
29 Nov 2016 ANNA AHRONHEIM

"...Nonetheless, Israel is still said to be considering acquiring the F-35B Lightning II short takeoff/vertical landing jets. According to Lockheed Martin, the B variant “is designed to operate from austere bases and a range of air-capable ships near front line combat zones. It can also take off and land conventionally from longer runways on major bases.” This could be crucial at times of war when air force bases – and particularly runways – will likely be hit by enemy missiles and rockets.

On Sunday, the security cabinet decided unanimously to purchase an additional 17 F-35s, bringing the number of the advanced jets in the IAF to 50On Sunday, the security cabinet decided unanimously to purchase an additional 17 F-35s, bringing the number of the advanced jets in the IAF to 50."

Source: http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Israel ... ars-473983

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2016, 04:03
by steve2267
spazsinbad wrote:
Israel prepares ground for F-35I testing
31 May 2016 Arie Egozi

<snip>

Israel's first two F-35s are scheduled to land in the nation on 12 December. Adaptations for its air force include enabling the fighter to carry Rafael's Python 5 and Derby air-to-air missiles, along with the same company's Litening 5 targeting pod.

<snip>

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ng-425887/


What am I missing here? Why would Israel need or want a targeting pod on their F-35's? Isn't that built-in to the F-35?

Or is the US disabling that feature or capability on Israeli Xwings? Or is it a software release issue - that functionality will not be available for a few years and the Israelis need it from day one?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2016, 04:19
by spazsinbad
I do not know what an Israel LITENING 5 targeting pod has innit. However searching/riffing usembassy one will find a graphic showing what is to come in BLOCK 4 that is not likely in BLOCK 3F. Probably 'SWP' later Block 4 graphic (in the BLOCK FOUR? thread viewtopic.php?f=62&t=27390 ) is probably more up to date. viewtopic.php?f=54&t=14259&p=303841&hilit=usembassy#p303841

IF the pod has comms then these are important to Israel CONOPs:
Rafael Unveiling Litening 5, RecceLite XR
15 Jun 2015 Noam Eshel

"...Rafael’s “image-based common targeting language,” also known as Matchguide, is integrated in the new pod. This allows rapid target handoff between the targeting pod or ground-based forward air controller and guided weapons carried on board. Matchguide is fully integrated in the Litening 5, enabling the pilot or ground controller to designate a target simply by touching its image on a display to deliver the targeting as coordinates or a scene to the attacking weapon. This method dramatically shortens the “sensor to shooter cycle.”..."

Source: http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show- ... ccelite-xr


'SWP' graphic: http://i.imgur.com/SKSuldO.png & http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt27 ... c5bbbf.jpg

download/file.php?id=21723&t=1

Image

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2016, 04:46
by SpudmanWP
Rafael has talked about an upgrade to EOTS based on their LITENING tech. Would this mean that lightning can strike twice? 8)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2016, 05:08
by spazsinbad
LITENING

",,,Future developments
Rafael sees an increased market in the future because of the move to stealth platforms which must have targeting systems built in. The company is developing a new model to compete for the F-35 requirement. At present prototype F-35's have the equivalent of a Lockheed Martin Sniper XR built in."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LITENING

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2016, 05:32
by popcorn
spazsinbad wrote:
LITENING

",,,Future developments
Rafael sees an increased market in the future because of the move to stealth platforms which must have targeting systems built in. The company is developing a new model to compete for the F-35 requirement. At present prototype F-35's have the equivalent of a Lockheed Martin Sniper XR built in."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LITENING

Terma has a LO pod unless Rafael wants to reinvent the wheel.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2016, 06:05
by SpudmanWP
Rafael is talking about a complete swap of the current EOTS, not a strap-on pod unless they want a larger aperture for recce work.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2016, 12:03
by spazsinbad
Betcha youse did'na know this...
OPINION: Western fighter manufacturers can breathe easier
05 Dec 2015 Flight International [flite gobeldegook more likely]

"...The longer-than-expected development path for the Lockheed Martin F-35 has played some part in the good fortunes of its rivals – but bar Canada, all its expected participants remain on board. Japan has just received its first example to support training, and the lead two F-15Is will head for Israel in mid-December. The Lightning II has a long way to go on its path to becoming combat-ready, but our directory shows the in-service fleet as having now reached 167 units...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -e-432014/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 09 Dec 2016, 21:43
by spazsinbad
Israel 'Ready' to Operate F-35s Without Ever Actually Flying Them
08 Dec 2016 Barbara Opall-Rome

"TEL AVIV – Israel’s scheduled Dec. 12 receipt of its first pair of F-35I Adir (Awesome) fighters caps nearly a decade of planning, and that’s all before a single Israel Air Force pilot has actually taken to the skies in its new stealth weapon.

Israeli pilots have been training at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona for more than a year, but unlike F-35 compatriots from the US, Norway, Australia and other nations who are actually flying the fifth-generation fighter, Israel has elected to limit pilot training to course work and the high-fidelity simulator built by prime contractor Lockheed Martin.

“We haven’t yet flown on the plane. That was our choice,” a general officer on the Israel Air Force (IAF) headquarters staff told Defense News.


“Decades ago, when we prepared for our first F-15s and F-16s, we needed to fly in the aircraft. But today, the situation is different for two key reasons: Firstly, the simulators are so reliable and secondly, it’s a single-seater. So it doesn’t matter if we fly here or there, because there’s no instructor up there with you in the cockpit,” the senior officer said.

He added, “We’ve gone through extensive simulator training and we’ve received all the information we needed through wonderful cooperation. … From our point of view, once they land here on 12 December, we’re ready to fly.”...

...Col. Asaf, the deputy commander of the F-35I’s designated home base at Nevatim, told reporters here that work to stand up the new Adir Squadron started about 18 months ago. The officer, whose surname was withheld for security reasons, said the sprawling base – one of three built after the 1979 peace treaty with Egypt – would house five operational squadrons, including the new 140th Squadron of new F-35Is....

...The F-35 simulator will feature prominently in the expanded Nevatim base, officers here said.

By the end of next year, with nine F-35Is delivered into Israeli hands, the service expects to be in a position to declare Initial Operational Capability (IOC), officers here said....

...Future plans include acquisition of another 25 F-35Is – possibly F-35B-model short-takeoff and landing versions – which would up Israel’s stealth force to a full 75 aircraft."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/articles/isr ... lly-flying

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2016, 05:32
by steve2267
spazsinbad wrote:
Israel 'Ready' to Operate F-35s Without Ever Actually Flying Them
08 Dec 2016 Barbara Opall-Rome

<snip>

By the end of next year, with nine F-35Is delivered into Israeli hands, the service expects to be in a position to declare Initial Operational Capability (IOC), officers here said....

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/articles/isr ... lly-flying


Wait, wait! Can they do that?!? Are they sure? Gilmore says the F-35 is behind schedule and may never fulfill its full combat potential! :mrgreen: :devil:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2016, 06:15
by spazsinbad
Sucks to be Israel paying for their exorbitantly priced jets - according to this reporter - whatup - Gifts/Horses/Don't look?
First two F-35 jets en route to Israel
08 Dec 29=016 Judah Ari Gross & Times of Israel staff

"...The purchase of the exorbitantly expensive planes — at more than NIS 380 million ($100 million) per plane — is possible, in part, due to the defense aid package given by the United States to Israel each year....

“It is clear and obvious to us, and to the entire region, that the new F-35 — the Adir — will create real deterrence and enhance our capabilities for a long time,” [Israeli DefMin] Liberman said."

Source: http://www.timesofisrael.com/first-two- ... to-israel/


Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2016, 21:04
by spazsinbad
F-35 Triggers Conceptual Overhaul in Israel Air Force
11 Dec 2016 Barbara Opall-Rome

TEL AVIV — Nearly a decade of planning preceded Monday's scheduled delivery of the first F-35Is to the Israel Air Force (IAF), but once they touch down at the stealth fighter’s desert base at Nevatim, another process will just begin, with vast implications on how Israel wields airpower near and very far from home.

From the single network that will support the IAF’s ability to use the fifth-generation Adir (Awesome/Magnificent) alongside fourth-generation fighters to hunt and fight in packs to the means by which it trains and maintains its combined force, the new F-35Is will be driving wholesale changes throughout the mightiest air force in the Middle East.

“The IAF needs to adapt itself to this fifth-generation plane, and not vice versa,” a general officer on the IAF Air Staff told Defense News.

“We need to look at all our existing concepts and to re-evaluate them as a result of this capability. We’ll ask questions we never asked before, because we’ve been used to training, operating and supporting according to fourth-generation concepts.”

From “Day 1” of the Adir’s arrival, the general officer said the new fighters will be co-located with an F-16I “escorting squadron” to allow the service to determine all it needs for seamless integration of its frontline fighter force.

“We need this quality team from Day 1 to live together, train together and learn all they need to speak the same language,” the officer said.

“We’ve defined the team’s mission as escorting the Adir and leading the way to joining fourth- and fifth-generation elements of our force,” he said.

“Of course, this F-16I squadron will have other missions. It’s not a dedicated team in the purest sense, since we don’t have the luxury of a stand-alone squadron. But their mission is clear: As smartly and as quickly as possible, we need to create a truly integrated force of fourth- and fifth-generation assets.”

As an example of “refusing to be locked into old concepts,” the officer cited the distances at which IAF fighters currently fly in operational formation; distances now determined by visual contact.

“We shouldn’t be using this plane in visual range. So it’s likely that we’ll fly differently in the formation,” he said.

Composition of force packages will also change, since the F-35I’s stealth capabilities should lessen the need in many combat scenarios for beefed up support and special mission aircraft.

All that, he emphasizes, is predicated on Israel’s ability to integrate its own communication system produced by state-owned Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and electronic warfare capabilities by Elbit’s Elisra in the new Adir force.

“At this point, it’s still theoretical. The F-35s that arrive here are basic aircraft. We need to integrate all these capabilities so have self-sufficiency with communications and electronic warfare. This is crucial for us to allow the networked connection with our four-generation force.

“Otherwise, if the F-35 is detached from the rest of our force, it has no significance in terms of networked operations force-wide,” he added.

In terms of maintenance, the officer noted that the new F-35I comes with its own simulator for technicians; something that the service may seek to replicate for fourth-generation fighters.

“Before, when we thought about simulators, we thought about pilot training. But now there is a simulator for technicians, and we may want this for our fourth-generation aircraft,” he said.

And unlike other partner members of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program, where depot-level maintenance will be performed at designed depots, Israel has been working with the US government and Lockheed Martin to ensure that no F-35I aircraft will ever leave the country.

“The intention is that the platform stays here. That’s obvious, due to our clear and compelling need for self-sufficiency,” the general officer said.

“Of course, some elements we may need to send to another place to fix. But in most cases, we should we able to replace them from what’s on the shelf … The important thing is that we will not send aircraft out of the country.”

He noted that because the aircraft are new, depot-level maintenance should not be relevant for years — perhaps more than a decade — to come, given the manufacturers advertised lifespan of some 50 years. But once it becomes relevant, Israel hopes to have put in place a process whereby depot-level work will be done in-country...."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/articles/f-3 ... -air-force

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2016, 03:07
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:.....

All that, he emphasizes, is predicated on Israel’s ability to integrate its own communication system produced by state-owned Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and electronic warfare capabilities by Elbit’s Elisra in the new Adir force. ..


...per this article we again hear about the "Israeli" modifications;

1. "to integrate its own communication system produced by state-owned Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI)"...is this similar to the 5th gen to 4th gen comm. issue that is being worked similarly by the program users and JPO.. (a different software set)...?

2. "electronic warfare capabilities by Elbit’s Elisra"...might this be a unique data set from Israeli intelligence for their specialized operations that would be similar to the mission data sets that would be built for the other program users..(a different software set)..?

.....perhaps neither of these are the radical "rip out and replace" hardware butchering that was mentioned long ago!
Not that I would waste time trying to anticipate/ imagine "Any" Israeli "improvements"!

:shock:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2016, 03:20
by spazsinbad
Don't know why you use colourful language however several posts in the past have given details somewhat about a black box interface enabling the Israeli modifications. No butchering required. Here is a clue: articles in forum at the time...

You will find this article below replicated a few times when forum searched for ALON three pages of results found so look at the 3rd the last page for them. Ensure last search box all available characters of posts ticked.
Israel To Buy F-35s With Cockpit Mods
27 Aug 2010 Alon Ben-David

"Israel is pressing ahead with its purchase of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, after securing U.S. approval to install Israeli munitions on the aircraft and a pledge to adjust the electronic warfare suite to emerging Middle East threats.

"The aircraft will be designated F-35I, as there will be unique Israeli features installed in them," a senior Israel air force official tells Aviation Week.

Israel's initial batch will be almost identical to the international JSF offered to other countries, with one difference: The F-35s manufactured for Israel will include several cockpit interfaces to accommodate the air force's command, control, communications, computer and intelligence systems. The F-35 main computer will enable a plug-and-play feature for Israeli equipment...."

Source: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... 249396.xml no longer there but replicated here: http://list.freeman.org/pipermail/freem ... 13664.html

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2016, 21:43
by zerion
Israel's first F-35 jets land as Trump blasts costs

In Israel, the first two F-35s landed at Nevatim air base at around 8.15 pm (1845 GMT), around six hours late after being delayed by bad weather in Italy, believed to be fog.

Some 4,000 people had been expected to watch the landings but the crowds thinned as the landing was delayed, leaving only around half the seats full by nightfall.

The two planes came to a halt in front of the spectators, one on each side of the stage erected for speeches of welcome.

"The aircraft landing here will change the rules of the game," President Reuven Rivlin said...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/israels-firs ... 24043.html


Photo at link

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2016, 22:07
by SpudmanWP
Looks like it did not get it's logos restored at the FACO.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2016, 22:25
by zerion

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2016, 22:40
by SpudmanWP
They put it on in Israel as part of the ceremony.

Image

IAF Commander, Maj. Gen. Amir Eshel & President of Israel, Reuven (Ruvi) Rivlin gluing the IAF roundel on the “Adir” | Photography: Mor Tzidon

Image
The "Adir" (F-35I) | Photography: Mor Tzidon

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2016, 02:38
by spazsinbad
From 'zerion' post above.
The “Adir” Has Landed
12 Dec 2016 Zohar Boneh

"...Combining Man and Machine
The pair of “Adir” (F-35I) jets that landed today are the first of 50 aircraft whose acquisition has been agreed upon so far. They will bring the IAF into the fifth generation of fighter aircraft and consist of a significant quantum jump in capability. The jets hold advanced capabilities new to the IAF such as sensor fusion, stealth and situation awareness. In addition, their arrival will bring new concepts into the IAF in various fields such as logistics, training and instruction. An example for such a conceptual change is the heightened significance of simulators in “Adir” pilot training. The IAF aspires to perform 50% of “Adir” flight hours in simulators....

...From the First Flight to Operational Activity
Six years after the acquisition deal was signed and a year and a half since the “Golden Eagle” Squadron (that will receive and operate the “Adir”) was established, the jets have arrived in Israel. Until now, the squadron personnel: pilots, ground crews, intelligence and operations personnel studied the advanced stealth fighter in order to achieve their goal – the “Adir”, operational by December 2017. “The IAF Commander gave us a goal – to take off for our first flight tomorrow and we definitely intended to reach it”, shared Lt. Col. Yotam, the first “Adir” Squadron Commander. “We must quickly transition from the exciting atmosphere to operational work in order to stay on schedule”.

During the coming year, the squadron is expected to hold various test and training flights, in order to better grasp how to make the aircraft’s activity more efficient and adapt it to the IAF’s needs and the current arena. Simultaneously, the IAF will continue training additional aircrews for the F-35 and developing the abilities of all “Adir” personnel, on the ground and in the air. “We will first make sure that we are providing the proper safety conditions for the jet’s activity, train ourselves and develop combat doctrines”, shared Lt. Col. Yotam. “We will begin operational activity only after deeply examining the aircraft and making sure that we are ready”."

Source: http://www.iaf.org.il/4451-48791-en/IAF.aspx

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2016, 02:59
by spazsinbad
Air Mobility Command enables delivery of Israel’s first F-35s
12 Dec 2016 1st Lt Erik Anthony, 618th Air Operations Center Public Affairs

"SCOTT AIR FORCE BASE, Ill. -- Air Mobility Command Airmen worked around the clock to ensure Israel’s first two F-35 aircraft were delivered Dec. 12, making the U.S. ally the only country in the Middle East flying a fifth generation fighter aircraft.

The 618th Air Operations Center, based out of Scott AFB, Illinois, assigned the Tennessee Air National Guard’s 134th Air Refueling Wing, New Hampshire ANG’s 157th ARW and Pennsylvania ANG’s 171st ARW the critical mission of providing critical aerial refueling support en route to Israel.

The 618th AOC planned the mission and provided command and control for the KC-135s, while they dispensed the fuel needed to ensure an effective multi-day mission to deliver the two new Israeli F-35s.

“We always need to be at the top of our game,” said Maj. John Hale, aircraft commander for the Tennessee ANG KC-135. “That’s especially the case when enabling the delivery of Israel’s first fifth generation fighters with a 52-year-old aircraft.”

Even with the overall KC-135 fleet exceeding 60 years old, the aircraft and its Airmen continue to provide refueling capabilities to nine combatant commanders worldwide. Every 2.8 minutes there is some type of Air Mobility Command aircraft supporting an operation somewhere on the globe. Mobility forces work with international partners to enhance their defense capability and capacity to conduct missions.

The U.S. and Israel have a military relationship developed through decades of cooperation. The delivery of capable and effective fighter aircraft will bring new capabilities to Israel and deepen the ties between the two countries.

"It is an honor to help ensure the delivery of F-35s to a valued ally,” said Gen. Carlton Everhart, Air Mobility Command commander. “Aerial refueling missions enable global reach for the United States and partner nations. Air Mobility Command Airmen and aircraft enable global effects and create bridges of support for partner nations on a daily basis."

Sharing the same aircraft with partner nations allows the U.S. to fly and fight in the same airframe with common tactics, capabilities, and resources, ensuring an interoperable coalition.

Members from AMC’s 618th AOC work 24 hours a day, 365 days a year to plan, task, assess, and provide command and control for airlift and tanker missions worldwide, making combat operations and partner nation support possible."

" Two Israeli F-35 “Adirs” fly in formation and display the U.S. and Israeli flags after receiving fuel from a Tennessee Air National Guard KC-135, Dec, 6, 2016. The U.S. and Israel have a military relationship built on trust developed through decades of cooperation. (U.S. Air Force photo by 1st Lt. Erik D. Anthony)" PHOTO: https://media.defense.gov/2016/Dec/12/2 ... 11-003.JPG (0.463Mb)


Source: http://www.amc.af.mil/News/Article-Disp ... rst-f-35s/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2016, 03:10
by neptune
zerion wrote:
Israel's first F-35 jets land as Trump blasts costs

In Israel, the first two F-35s landed at Nevatim air base at around 8.15 pm (1845 GMT), around six hours late after being delayed by bad weather in Italy, believed to be fog.

Some 4,000 people had been expected to watch the landings but the crowds thinned as the landing was delayed, leaving only around half the seats full by nightfall.....


..two F-35s have arrived ..
After a slight delay due to heavy fog in Italy, ....
On hand to welcome the aircraft were Primer Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the President of Israel Reuven (Ruvi) Rivlin, the Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman and U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter.
:)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2016, 06:54
by spazsinbad
VIDEO: Opall-Rome talks about F-35i: http://www.defensenews.com/video/the-f- ... priorities

Follow on video F-35 LM VP Jack Crisler interviewed by Opall-Rome: same URL above....

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2016, 08:22
by SpudmanWP
The F-35 and Israel’s Broader Military Priorities




F-35 Delivery Lockheed on Israel


Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2016, 16:27
by geokav
neptune wrote:
zerion wrote:
Israel's first F-35 jets land as Trump blasts costs

In Israel, the first two F-35s landed at Nevatim air base at around 8.15 pm (1845 GMT), around six hours late after being delayed by bad weather in Italy, believed to be fog.

Some 4,000 people had been expected to watch the landings but the crowds thinned as the landing was delayed, leaving only around half the seats full by nightfall.....


..two F-35s have arrived ..
After a slight delay due to heavy fog in Italy, ....
On hand to welcome the aircraft were Primer Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the President of Israel Reuven (Ruvi) Rivlin, the Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman and U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter.
:)


Rumors say, that a HAF Erieye was patrolling south east of Crete, yesterday late afternoon...

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2016, 17:25
by steve2267
geokav wrote:
Rumors say, that a HAF Erieye was patrolling south east of Crete, yesterday late afternoon...


And?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2016, 18:04
by Boman
Israel and Greece have excellent military cooperation, but Greece is certainly interested in finding out how stealthy the F-35 really is compared to their equipment, given that Turkey is to aquire the fighter.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2016, 19:03
by bring_it_on

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2016, 19:06
by bring_it_on
Boman wrote:Israel and Greece have excellent military cooperation, but Greece is certainly interested in finding out how stealthy the F-35 really is compared to their equipment, given that Turkey is to aquire the fighter.


And how will it do that?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2016, 19:52
by steve2267
bring_it_on wrote:

Yeah, but who won the dogfight? :devil:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2016, 20:08
by spazsinbad
Boman wrote:Israel and Greece have excellent military cooperation, but Greece is certainly interested in finding out how stealthy the F-35 really is compared to their equipment, given that Turkey is to aquire the fighter.

Sorry but... these two had Luneberg / Luneburg Lens fitted... therefore not stealthy:
https://media.defense.gov/2016/Dec/12/2 ... 11-003.JPG

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 14 Dec 2016, 07:16
by spazsinbad
PICTURES: First two F-35s delivered to Israel
13 Dec 2016 Arie Egozi

"...According to the air force, each of the pilots performed 32 simulator missions while there, but did not actually fly the aircraft. As training continues, US instructors will assist in the first airborne sorties carried out by Israeli personnel."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... el-432373/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 14 Dec 2016, 10:32
by hythelday
Even with a set of CFTs (450 gallons) and 300 + 2x370 drop tanks and internal storage, Sufa in that video still has less fuel than F-35A in internal stores with zero drag penalty. While targeting pod can be mounted on dedicated hardpoint on the intake, I am not sure EW pod can, so that leaves exactly one weapon station available (3 AA missiles + AG weapon/ 4 AA missiles). F-35A can match payload now and will exceed it in the near future... all internal, not to mention other things like quality of avionics, stealth and so on. :shock:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 14 Dec 2016, 21:32
by bring_it_on
Analysis: Israeli F-35s to become 'big data' gatherers



In a move that reflected the Israeli Air Force's (IAF's) intention to use its newest aircraft to empower its entire fleet, its first two Lockheed Martin F-35A 'Adir' Joint Strike Fighters flew their first training flight alongside F-16I 'Sufa' multirole fighters on 13 December, just a day after they arrived at Nevatim Air Base.

The arrival of the new aircraft made Israel the first country to have F-35s based outside the United States.

The hour-long joint flight with the F-16Is was symbolic of the ongoing initiative to integrate fourth- and fifth-generation aircraft, an effort that began years before the F-35's arrival. The inter-connectivity programme is led by the IAF's Ofek (Horizon) computer programming unit.

Ofek is creating a network that will enable F-35 jets to share the large quantity of data they are expected to gather during flights with the IAF's F-16s and F-15s, thereby improving the older aircraft's situational awareness.

The ability of F-35s to share their data with the rest of the IAF has been a key Israeli focus, and the Israel Defense Forces intend to connect ground forces to the F-35-fed intelligence picture as well.

Speaking in June, IAF Chief Major General Amir Eshel said the F-35 will significantly upgrade intelligence-gathering, as well as the ability to strike very large numbers of targets with guided air-to-surface weapons.

He said that the F-35s will be a key component in the IAF's goal of creating "intelligence 24-7" and said the data they will gather will be sent to ground-based processing centres within seconds of being obtained, where it will be rapidly turned into operational intelligence.

IHS Jane's understands that the IAF will probably begin using the new aircraft soon for advanced intelligence gathering missions.

Officially, the IAF has said that the new platforms will become operational in December 2017.

Lieutenant Colonel Yotam (full name withheld), who commands the IAF's first F-35 squadron, dubbed 'Golden Eagle', outlined the steps that need to be taken to get the aircraft operational to the IAF's official website.

"We will, at first, ensure that we are providing the appropriate safety envelope for the plane's activities. We will train ourselves, and we will develop combat doctrines. Only after the plane receives an in-depth check, and after we feel ready, will we embark on operational activities," he said.

After touching down at Nevatim on 12 December, the IAF's two F-35s were taken to an underground facility where technical personnel began preparing them for the training flight with the assistance of teams from Lockheed Martin and the US Air Force.

Earlier this year, the IAF Chief of Staff Brigadier General Tal Kelman confirmed that Israel will install its own cyber defences on the aircraft.

Israeli ministers from the cabinet's National Security Committee approved on 27 November the acquisition of 17 additional F-35As fighter jets, which will bring the total on order up to 50, sufficient for two squadrons.

The Israeli government is also weighing a request by the IAF to purchase a squadron of the F-35B short take-off and vertical landing variant, which would be useful if runways are damaged by missile attacks.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 14 Dec 2016, 21:43
by spazsinbad
Thanks for that 'bring_it_on' and I always like these sentiments for other air forces - to encourage the others to do same.
"...The Israeli government is also weighing a request by the IAF to purchase a squadron of the F-35B short take-off and vertical landing variant, which would be useful if runways are damaged by missile attacks."

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2016, 02:45
by zerion

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2016, 21:25
by spazsinbad
Israel’s First F-35s Delivered to VIP Reception
15 Dec 2016 Chris Pocock

"...The F-35s for Israel are being flown directly to the country for flight training; those for other F-35 partner nations that have already received F-35s remain in the U.S. for this purpose. The first pair for the IAF was ferried by U.S. pilots via Lajes AFB, refueled by U.S. Air Force tankers. However, a cadre of pilots from the first IAF squadron—No 140 “Golden Eagles”—did conduct 32 simulator sorties each at Luke AFB over a four-month period. This allowed two of them to make their first F-35 flights from Nevatim just 16 hours after the new jets arrived. American F-35 instructor pilots have been sent to Nevatim to aid the training. The IAF is planning to conduct 50percent of its F-35 pilot training in simulators, in the U.S. until 2018 and thereafter in a purpose-built facility at Nevatim.

Israel’s “acquisition” of F-35s is effectively a military aid transfer from the U.S., and most of the 50 that the IAF is expected to receive will be paid for from within the new 10-year, $38 billion security assistance pact that Washington agreed with Tel Aviv last September. Lockheed Martin will receive an average of $110 million per aircraft from the U.S. government. The first 19 to arrive will be F-35A models, whereas the second batch of 14 will be delivered to the F-35I standard with Israeli-specific avionic, C4I and other systems. The 19 F-35As will subsequently be modified as F-35Is. The IAF has not yet formally committed to a further 17 aircraft that would form a third squadron. There has been speculation that these could be F-35B STOVL versions, to provided added operational insurance in case of an disabling attack on Israeli air bases.

In another departure from the procedures being established for the main F-35 international partners, the U.S. will allow Israel to perform depth maintenance (eg D-checks) on its F-35s in-country. A new facility is also being added at Nevatim for this purpose, and the airbase is also having new hardened aircraft shelters (HAS) constructed to house the “Adirs.”..."

Source: http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... -reception

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2017, 10:33
by popcorn
http://www.defencetalk.com/israeli-air- ... tie-68832/

Israeli Air Force Flies First F-35 Night Sortie

The pair of “Adir” (F-35I) stealth fighters took off for their first night flight in the IAF this evening, only a month after landing in Israel. “We are performing a night flight very quickly in comparison to other aircraft that were integrated in the IAF”, said Lt. Col. Yotam, Commander of the “Golden Eagle” Squadron that received the “Adir”. “It’s a significant statement that says that to us, there is no difference between a day flight and a night flight”.

“Night flights are not unusual occurrences”, stated Lt. Col. Yotam. “The aircraft’s systems allow for comfortable flight at night, that is almost identical to a day flight. Despite this, like in every mission, we operate slowly and in a supervised manner, while performing in-depth risk management. Tonight, we are examining how the aircraft’s night vision systems fit with the flight familiar to us”...

“The F-35 program is in development”, said IAF Chief of Air Staff, Brig. Gen. Tal Kelman. “As expected from a complex, in-development program of a fighter aircraft, defects are being discovered, similarly to other development programs of different platforms we acquired in the past. The majority of the defects are software defects, and if necessary, corrections and changes are made. The program maintains complete transparency with its customers and is obligated to provide full security in the operation of the aircraft.”

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2017, 02:43
by steve2267
No complaints about the HMDS being too bright? :-D

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2017, 07:19
by spazsinbad
The brightness issue emanates when looking at dim ship lights in an otherwise 'black hole' no moon no horizon no stars overcast black night at sea. You perhaps need to see it to believe it. :devil: Trust me it is black as the ACE of SPADES.


Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 22 Jan 2017, 04:23
by spazsinbad
2 page PDF of the entire article is attached below....
Mighty vision for Israel’s new Adir
24-30 Jan 2017 ARIE EGOZI

"...Israeli air force (IAF) commander Maj Gen Amir Eshel summed up the significance of the event: “The Adir is about to become a powerful accelerator for the entire IAF. We plan on leveraging our systemic abilities to new heights in attack and defence.

“Our aerial force will be much deadlier, combined and more relevant than ever.”

Israel has big plans for the jets, including some “customisation” to meet its specific requirements. But those responsible for making the F-35 the “accelerator” that Eshel expects must rue the day, back in 2010, that Israel turned down the chance – it is thought for financial reasons – to become a full partner in the programme. At that time Israel passed up the opportunity to put its mark on the F-35’s design, but that is turning out to be the least of its problems.

FALLING BEHIND
At that time, Israeli industry sources described the non-partnership status as anything from a “big problem” to a “disaster”. They were not talking about the money they would lose by not being able to put, for example, some “super advanced” missiles on the stealth fighter. Rather, their concern was, and remains, that if Israel were not a full member of the programme, its ability to develop top-of- the-line systems would remain at least one technological generation behind.

...While Israel may not enjoy the benefits of full programme partnership, it is making every possible effort to leverage the massive purchase of the aircraft for the development of new systems. One example is a command, control, communications and computing system developed for the Adir by IAI.

IAI says the system will enable the air force to better manage, and rapidly field, networked applications that interface with core services over proprietary protocols developed especially for it. Using generic communications infrastructure based on the latest software-defined radios, IAI’s new system will provide the backbone of Israel’s future airborne communications network.

IAI claims this network will be a dramatic improvement over legacy systems now operating with its fleet of earlier-generation F-15s and F-16s.

NETWORKED WARFARE
The new open-architecture system promises rapid software and hardware development cycles that will also provide more affordable modernisation and support of systems over the platform’s life cycle. And, IAI says, it also paves the way for additional advanced capabilities to be embedded in the F-35I.

“This cutting-edge avionic system represents an ‘operational quantum leap’ in the capability of air power to conduct networked-centric air warfare,” Cohen says. “It is part of a major change that takes place once in a decade, which includes the upgrading of fourth generation systems. This programme will be critical to our national security, as it represents a shift in air force concepts of operations and operational capabilities.”

The system has been designed based on the vast operational experience of the air force in a large range of combat missions. The service wants its F-35 test aircraft delivered as early as possible, to begin adapting Israeli weapon systems to the platform.

The F-35I contract for Israel includes one test aircraft that will be operated by the air force’s flight test centre. According to Lt Col Ori, the chief flight test engineer at the centre, the test asset will have an operational capability. But its main mission will be to enable the development of Israeli systems that will enhance the F-35’s capabilities.

“We will have to test Israeli-made weapons systems, so that they can be carried in the weapons bay of the aircraft and test it under different situations,” Ori says.

Immediately after the first F-35 contract was signed with the US, the Israeli defence ministry and the air force approved the development of special versions of Israeli weapon systems for the aircraft. For example, Rafael is working on adapting its Python 5 and Derby air-to-air missiles. The company’s Litening 5 targeting pod is also in the adaptation process.

The delivery of the first two F-35s to Israel is the beginning of a “crawling” process that will adapt the stealth fighter to the nation’s unique operational requirements. The USA may not be entirely happy to allow Israel to penetrate some core systems of the aircraft, but judging from the past experience with types like the F-15 and F-16, the local effort should bring some additional capabilities to the Adir."

Source: 24-30 January 2017 | Flight International

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 23 Jan 2017, 18:40
by spazsinbad
Entire article above in PDF (I guess) is now available here:

ANALYSIS: Israel wings it on F-35 23 Jan 2017 Arie Egozi

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 35-433077/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2017, 16:14
by fang
January 25th, 2017 Adir #3 (903) made FF, February 5th, 2017 Adir #4 (904) made FF
They are part of LRIP-9 group and schedule to arrive Israel in early April 2017 together with Adir #5 (905) and Adir #6 (906)
Images of 903 & 904 FF (credit on the pic)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2017, 18:04
by mrbuno
fang wrote:January 25th, 2017 Adir #3 (903) made FF, February 5th, 2017 Adir #4 (904) made FF
They are part of LRIP-9 group and schedule to arrive Israel in early April 2017 together with Adir #5 (905) and Adir #6 (906)
Images of 903 & 904 FF (credit on the pic)


903 was already seen flying on January 16th and 904 on February 1st:

903: https://www.flickr.com/photos/36600796@N04/31513405964/

904: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mjd312/31814487324/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 09 Feb 2017, 06:46
by fang
mrbuno you are so right, thanks for correcting.
As a reward enjoy the IAF pic of 901&902 kissing in Nevatim AFB

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2017, 08:03
by neptune
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/isr ... -1-billion

Israeli F-35 buy-back surpasses $1 billion

By: Barbara Opall-Rome
February 12, 2017

TEL AVIV – Israel’s Defense Ministry announced Sunday that completed industrial cooperation or buy-back contracts with Lockheed Martin on the F-35 program surpassed the $1 billion benchmark since Israel signed its first contract in 2010 for an initial 19 fighters. According to Avi Dadon, MoD’s deputy director of purchasing, Israeli firms entered into $258 million worth of new contracts during 2016, a 33 percent surge from the previous year. “The scope of industrial cooperation between [Lockheed Martin] and Israeli industries, just in the past year, illustrates the big, raw potential of this deal to the Israeli economy,” Dadon said.

Key Israeli suppliers to Lockheed Martin for the year that just closed include Elbit Systems, which together with Rockwell Collins expanded their production contract for sensor-fuzed helmets by $206 million; and Israel Aerospace Industries, which received a $26 million follow-on contract for wing sets. Two other Elbit subsidiaries – Cyclone and Tadiran – also scored orders exceeding $20 million last year for structural components and radio amplifiers respectively.

Dadon noted that several Lockheed Martin contracts were extended to small firms in northern Israel to support industries near the “line of confrontation” along the border with Lebanon. He said the Ministry aimed to work in the coming year “to further deepen” industrial cooperation associated with Israel’s F-35 program. Israel is now negotiating its third contract for another 17 F-35A fighters, which will bring the Israel Air Force’s inventory to 50.

In an interview late last year, Jack Crisler, Lockheed Martin’s vice president for F-35 business development, said Israeli technology was benefiting not only those planes destined for the Israel Air Force, but in many cases, all partner and customer nations of the fifth-generation fighter.

:)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Feb 2017, 21:12
by fang
The Israeli Air Force grounded one of the F-35 pilots after he published in a local magazine an article about his flight impressions in The Adir (F-35i) without a proper authorisation.
No classified information revealed since the article been approved by the military censor but not by the IAF spokesperson unit (The IAF public affairs officer).
The pilot (Major E) is well valued by the IAF after serving over 20 years as F-16 pilot in many roles, he says that his intention was innocent but some how he missed the regulations.
Most of the people think this punish (1 year grounding) is too heavy.

A brief of the article (in Hebrew)
http://www.yediot.co.il/articles/0,7340 ... 42,00.html

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Feb 2017, 21:24
by SpudmanWP
Google Translate:

I first sit in the cockpit and the first thing I notice that it's beyond the standard throttle gum, as I have known each other aircraft, there's no buttons or watches. As befits the plane of the iPhone generation, all the engineers left this one big touch screen, 16 inches.

As smartphone is now also an encyclopedia and a camera and a phone, then on F-35 screen is also a fuel gauge and radar and missile system. All presented a pilot application and convenient, intuitive and requires some learning. If something is displayed on the screen in red - this is very bad; if it's green - everything is fine; yellow - understanding alone. this way the pilot process facilitates the flow of information in real time, and in the case of Adir "I realize very quickly that this is not allowed. F-35 one knows gather more information four legacy jets together, and without a clear view and comfortable cockpit would get lost in the tsunami of information thrown at him.

F-35 is a single-seat. This plane is so sophisticated and easy to operate, with simulators so accurate, not only did he single-seat - not even two-seater built one for training. She even first solo flight.

Instead navigate or guide there's a robot. Remember the famous scene in Star Wars: A New Hope "as the battles of Luke Skywalker compromised and R2D2 out a screwdriver and fixes the wiring during the flight? The robot here called ICP and runs alongside the pilot from turning the key to that return the aircraft to the parking lot. No, actually the plane. There Kuden with 16 digits, it's like remember your credit card number. ICP actually found the whole operation and the pilot wants to make the plane. And some of them simply will not perform, for example, if it is too busy or did not liked them. Operations that may cause the aircraft to lose control and crash entering this niche of not pleasing.

Because of this, ICP detects a fault When he did not drop it as your default. At first he treats himself, and notify you if further action is needed. If the computer revealed radar target, it will show you that just as it is important enough and close, so do not waste valuable time even you.

By now I was used to having one radar screen, both the map and your location, and the third warning about the missiles. You would need to cross-reference all three function in all discarded information you need from three directions while you are driving a car moved at 900 mph and under rocket attack at 3000 mph or more. As a young pilot, you usually course information overload and freezes on the controls.

In F-35 does not have to build and maintain the image at the top of the battle. Do not even have to press a button. More than that, I do not even know where the information came from. He could have reached the missile warning system, radar or radar ever got another aircraft structure and automatically transferred. All that remains to do is pilot to decide what to do with the information. Is it a missile launch, throw the bomb or it may just turn around and go home. So when it comes to calculating ability and willingness to make decisions - even before we started to try to shoot down other aircraft - pilot of the F-35 has been in the lead.

Let's talk a minute about stealth. Stealth fighter made of special materials and designed in a way that passes the less reimbursement radars, so they see it only in a much shorter relative to the plane normal. This is a very significant advantage on the battlefield because until today - and in the visible range of years - it is very difficult to locate and harm plane without radar detection. There are other means to bring down airplanes, such as guns or heat seeking missiles, but they have a very close very purpose, which is difficult to achieve without it rises on the radar. The bottom line is, when you take off the job at F-35 , you see the enemy from a great distance and can harm them while they are very close to you will need to see you and hurt you. you will have all the tools to overthrow them before they enter the range that might jeopardize you.

Difficult to explain the change that this brings to the battlefield and how much it significantly. It's a bit like playing with cheats, or be a superhero. In F-16 was spitting blood to win - a training flight or simulator, and together with another plane - a pair of planes that simulate enemy. Many times I was on the kidnaps. Outstanding "pair against pair it just is not training. Magic of the aircraft make it child's play. Please bring six enemy planes, otherwise it does not Forces.

F-35 is not the world's best fighter plane in each category, but he is not the first time is probably second. F-15 could perhaps carry a bit more bombs, F-16, maybe a little smaller and agile. But war is not sterile world of individual ability. How exactly could the F-15 missile batteries to penetrate the enemy with modern radar sees him hundreds of miles away? What will help with F-16 its excellent maneuverability, if an enemy plane would knock him long before he knows we have to maneuver? As a whole war, Outstanding "brings capabilities that no other aircraft. and the area that is constant arms race and war tradition of summer, it's definitely an advantage that makes you feel good. At least for a moment

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2017, 00:40
by spazsinbad
Yeah but no but yeah but - can he fly in the FMS? "...Most of the people think this punish (1 year grounding) is too heavy."

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2017, 06:52
by spazsinbad
305Kb 4 page PDF of entire article: http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... sraeli.pdf (300Kb)
OR
http://www.jsf.mil/news/docs/20170301_T ... _F-35s.pdf (187Kb)
The Israeli F-35s
April 2017 Gideon Grudo

"...some observers say Israel is the only country whose variant is unique. According to Lockheed Martin spokesperson Eric Schnaible, the company modified the F-35 for Israel in three main areas: command, control, communications, computers, and intelligence (C4I), electronic warfare, and weapons integration.

Initially, the US refused to allow Israeli modifications to the F-35. The compromise reached involved not changing anything inside the aircraft, but allowing the Israelis to add capabilities on top of the existing infrastructure.

State-run Israel Aerospace Industries, for example, is working on a C4I overlay for the F-35, with Lockheed Martin. “It’s open architecture, which sits on the F-35’s central system, much like an application on your iPhone,” Benni Cohen, general manager of IAI’s Lahav Division, told Defense News last year.

“The F-35 Adir aircraft has also been provisioned to allow updates to EW and weapons interfaces,” Schnaible said. “The design of aircraft installations, power, and cooling have been modified to provide IAF the ability to incorporate indigenous weapons.”

The types of weapons Israel will be adding to the F-35 are either classified or not yet known, and Moti wouldn’t confirm either.

“It’s like a view to the future. We know we want to fly with Israeli weapons in this aircraft,” he said. “Because it’s so complex, we started working today on understanding how we can integrate future weapons.” The same goes for communications, the challenge being figuring out a way for the F-35 to communicate with the F-15s and F-16s it’s going to fly alongside.

“We need to have Israeli communications,” Moti said. “The aircraft are supposed to speak in the same protocols.” As the F-35 is akin to “a flying computer,” Moti explained, “if you’re not speaking the same language as this computer, you cannot do anything.”... [well I say, I say son (do your best Foghorn Leghorn impression here "This is gonna cause more confusion than a mouse at a burlesque show." http://www.barbneal.com/wp-content/uploads/fogleg16.mp3 (59Kb))

...Reinventing the Air Force
The introduction of a unique aircraft like the F-35 will affect the nature of communication and war planning within the IDF.

“Now we are going to have a mixed fleet,” said retired IAF Brig. Gen. Ephraim Segoli. He served in IAF for 25 years and in 1997 studied as a fellow at the School of Advanced Air and Space Studies, Maxwell AFB, Ala. In Israel, he eventually joined the Fisher Institute for Air and Space Strategic Studies, where he heads the Airpower and Asymmetric Conflict Research Center.

“The F-35 is bringing a new culture. It is a big challenge. Not just a technical challenge, like how we talk,” but also how airmen and other branches of the military will use information, in what order, and with what aims. Like everything else with the F-35, “time and experience” will reveal the potential advantages and limitations of the aircraft, he said....

...The amount of information the F-35 is designed to gather and disseminate to the rest of IAF and IDF may also change the way IAF operates within the IDF. “In my opinion, the air force has a very unique part in any campaign planning,” said Segoli.

“It was not done and it is not done,” he told Air Force Magazine in a January interview, referring to IAF’s role in holistically advising on military campaigns. “The air force must understand [the F-35] is not just there to improve one, two, or three capabilities.”

While the F-35 can allow IAF to penetrate threats now being developed, Segoli emphasized he sees no current threats the F-35 is capable of attacking alone. Rather, he emphasized the role of the aircraft in deterring those rising threats. If Iran is considering rolling out nuclear capabilities, the F-35’s ability to fly past the country’s surface-to-air defense system may affect such plans....

...It may be years before the F-35 program settles into enough of a routine for today’s questions about unit costs and planned inventories to be resolved. But whatever quantities and capabilities the F-35 ends up offering later, within the IAF there is considerable agreement that it’ll be “adir.”"

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... F-35s.aspx

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2017, 11:24
by fang
Feb 24, 2017 Texas: IAF's Adir (F-35i) #905 made first flight, next to fly is #906 during the coming two weeks
All the 4 planes (903-906) schedule to arrive Israel next month

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2017, 14:09
by mixelflick
SpudmanWP wrote:Google Translate:

I first sit in the cockpit and the first thing I notice that it's beyond the standard throttle gum, as I have known each other aircraft, there's no buttons or watches. As befits the plane of the iPhone generation, all the engineers left this one big touch screen, 16 inches.

As smartphone is now also an encyclopedia and a camera and a phone, then on F-35 screen is also a fuel gauge and radar and missile system. All presented a pilot application and convenient, intuitive and requires some learning. If something is displayed on the screen in red - this is very bad; if it's green - everything is fine; yellow - understanding alone. this way the pilot process facilitates the flow of information in real time, and in the case of Adir "I realize very quickly that this is not allowed. F-35 one knows gather more information four legacy jets together, and without a clear view and comfortable cockpit would get lost in the tsunami of information thrown at him.

F-35 is a single-seat. This plane is so sophisticated and easy to operate, with simulators so accurate, not only did he single-seat - not even two-seater built one for training. She even first solo flight.

Instead navigate or guide there's a robot. Remember the famous scene in Star Wars: A New Hope "as the battles of Luke Skywalker compromised and R2D2 out a screwdriver and fixes the wiring during the flight? The robot here called ICP and runs alongside the pilot from turning the key to that return the aircraft to the parking lot. No, actually the plane. There Kuden with 16 digits, it's like remember your credit card number. ICP actually found the whole operation and the pilot wants to make the plane. And some of them simply will not perform, for example, if it is too busy or did not liked them. Operations that may cause the aircraft to lose control and crash entering this niche of not pleasing.

Because of this, ICP detects a fault When he did not drop it as your default. At first he treats himself, and notify you if further action is needed. If the computer revealed radar target, it will show you that just as it is important enough and close, so do not waste valuable time even you.

By now I was used to having one radar screen, both the map and your location, and the third warning about the missiles. You would need to cross-reference all three function in all discarded information you need from three directions while you are driving a car moved at 900 mph and under rocket attack at 3000 mph or more. As a young pilot, you usually course information overload and freezes on the controls.

In F-35 does not have to build and maintain the image at the top of the battle. Do not even have to press a button. More than that, I do not even know where the information came from. He could have reached the missile warning system, radar or radar ever got another aircraft structure and automatically transferred. All that remains to do is pilot to decide what to do with the information. Is it a missile launch, throw the bomb or it may just turn around and go home. So when it comes to calculating ability and willingness to make decisions - even before we started to try to shoot down other aircraft - pilot of the F-35 has been in the lead.

Let's talk a minute about stealth. Stealth fighter made of special materials and designed in a way that passes the less reimbursement radars, so they see it only in a much shorter relative to the plane normal. This is a very significant advantage on the battlefield because until today - and in the visible range of years - it is very difficult to locate and harm plane without radar detection. There are other means to bring down airplanes, such as guns or heat seeking missiles, but they have a very close very purpose, which is difficult to achieve without it rises on the radar. The bottom line is, when you take off the job at F-35 , you see the enemy from a great distance and can harm them while they are very close to you will need to see you and hurt you. you will have all the tools to overthrow them before they enter the range that might jeopardize you.

Difficult to explain the change that this brings to the battlefield and how much it significantly. It's a bit like playing with cheats, or be a superhero. In F-16 was spitting blood to win - a training flight or simulator, and together with another plane - a pair of planes that simulate enemy. Many times I was on the kidnaps. Outstanding "pair against pair it just is not training. Magic of the aircraft make it child's play. Please bring six enemy planes, otherwise it does not Forces.

F-35 is not the world's best fighter plane in each category, but he is not the first time is probably second. F-15 could perhaps carry a bit more bombs, F-16, maybe a little smaller and agile. But war is not sterile world of individual ability. How exactly could the F-15 missile batteries to penetrate the enemy with modern radar sees him hundreds of miles away? What will help with F-16 its excellent maneuverability, if an enemy plane would knock him long before he knows we have to maneuver? As a whole war, Outstanding "brings capabilities that no other aircraft. and the area that is constant arms race and war tradition of summer, it's definitely an advantage that makes you feel good. At least for a moment


Ground him for a year? For this??

They should promote him, given I'm now more confused about Israel's F-35's than I was before reading it...

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2017, 06:51
by fang
mixelflick wrote:Ground him for a year? For this??
They should promote him, given I'm now more confused about Israel's F-35's than I was before reading it...

It's not the air force, It's a direct order from the IDF chief of staff, he is freak about the media and takes extreme measures against who violate the regulations.
I'm with you, this pilot got great flying skills but he is also a good writer, instead of ban him they should make him write about it regulary in a special column within the regulations.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2017, 10:22
by spazsinbad
Jeepers - how did we miss this GEM of a post?! I should check & check again because I'm laffing too much... FUD supreme.
Unanswered Questions About the F-35’s Six-Day Flight to Israel [TOLDYA this is an excellent clickbaiter - FUD]
16 Dec 2016 Giovanni de Briganti

"After a six-day ferry flight from the United States – as long as it took Israel to win the 1967 war [GOD supposedly made creation in SIX DAYS - get over it Giovanni] -- the first two Lockheed F-35Is for the Israeli Air Force finally arrived at Nevatim air base, in southern Israel, six hours late. Many contradictory explanations have been provided for this delay.... [contradictory in that no one wants to tell you nuttin' - you obviously won't understand so why bother]

...Looking into why a routine delivery flight took so long, we ran into a wall of obfuscation, contradictory explanations, deflections and unanswered questions that, given the F-35 enterprise’s past record, suggested that something was being hidden.

While no evidence of any failure has emerged, we have found no plausible explanation of why the F-3 [this is that stupid alien show all over again - no explanation so I'll invent one] -- often billed as the world’s most advanced fighter -- took six days to fly from Texas to Israel, nor why, despite its much-vaunted “5th-generation” avionics, it was unable to take off on the final leg of its flight because of fog – fog which did not affect scheduled and[sic] air traffic at a nearby civil airport.... [GIOVANNI these are expensive jets when safety in SDD phase is an ongoing concern - deal with it]

...on Dec 16 by another Lockheed spokesman, Eric W. Schnaible, who said the jets arrived at Lajes on Dec. 6 and at Cameri on Dec. 8, where they remained until taking off for Israel on Dec. 12.

But their takeoff, originally scheduled for 07:00, was delayed for six hours because of heavy fog which, however, did not affect commercial flights at Milan Malpensa international airport, 8.5 km away, as shown by this screen grab:... [GIOVANNI has not been a pilot we can guess - he knows they are super human and the weather is the same all over - even in fog at departure and enroute what was weather and at arrival point?]

...Lockheed’s Schnaible also belatedly provided additional information about the flight that was previously unavailable. He said:
“The US Military Defense Contract Management Agency (DCMA) F-35 ferry pilots planned, coordinated USAF tanker support for trans-Atlantic Ocean aerial refuelings and accomplished the delivery in three legs to meet the IAF's request for a 12 Dec 1400 arrival.

“1st leg had 5 refuels for each jet. Flight time was 7.2 hours from Fort Worth to Lajes; 2nd leg had 3 refuels with flight time of 4.5 hours Azores to Cameri AB, Italy on 8 Dec. 3rd leg was planned for 12 Dec.”


...[Then there are a bunch of mostly idiotic questions so go there to find out if GIOVANNI is an idiot - I like the way Schnaible answers questions] Asked to comment, Lockheed’s Schnaible said he did not know why Cameri was preferred, “but the FACO may have been a better F-35 support facility if needed.” The FACO is the F-35 Final Assembly and Check-Out facility also located on Cameri air base.

Regarding the delivery’s six-day duration, Schnaible said “the flights were planned to support [Israel’s timing] request. To ensure safety of flight, aircrew rest rules are followed between flight legs so the pilots are fully refreshed for their flights.”

Lockheed’s Schnaible said that “There were no technical delays, and I am told the jets arrived Code One, meaning no discrepancies.” He referred further questions about the Cameri layover to the Italian air force whose press office, as stated above, declined to comment....

[Then there is a long ramble about 'why was there a delay in the foggy departure' - it is hilarious]

...Yet more questions about F-35 operations that will remain unanswered." [I CANNOT NOT WAIT! - I'm outta here]

Source: http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... srael.html

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2017, 16:15
by steve2267
spazsinbad wrote:
Unanswered Questions About the F-35’s Six-Day Flight to Israel [TOLDYA this is an excellent clickbaiter - FUD]
16 Dec 2016 Giovanni de Briganti
...Lockheed’s Schnaible also belatedly provided additional information about the flight that was previously unavailable. He said:
“The US Military Defense Contract Management Agency (DCMA) F-35 ferry pilots planned, coordinated USAF tanker support for trans-Atlantic Ocean aerial refuelings and accomplished the delivery in three legs to meet the IAF's request for a 12 Dec 1400 arrival.

“1st leg had 5 refuels for each jet. Flight time was 7.2 hours from Fort Worth to Lajes; 2nd leg had 3 refuels with flight time of 4.5 hours Azores to Cameri AB, Italy on 8 Dec. 3rd leg was planned for 12 Dec.”


Source: http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... srael.html


That guy's a piece of work for sure. Who knows about the fog. Maybe their tankers were flying with them, and they could not depart in the fog? So the F-35's were grounded because their escort was grounded. F-35's can't fly un-escorted, dontchaknow. :roll:

The refueling comments by Schnaible intrigue me though. Sounds like they tanked over the east coast of the US, then roughly every 600nm after that, as they still had Halifax Intl (Nova Scotia) and St Johns (Newfoundland) as divert options. Once past St Johns they had the Azores made (gas wise). The second leg from the Azores probably had one, maybe two IFRs, before they made the coast of Portugal or Spain, and then two (or one) more fillups to get them all the way to Cameri AB.

2016_IAF_F-35A_Texas-Azores.jpg

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2017, 18:50
by blindpilot
spazsinbad wrote:Jeepers - how did we miss this GEM of a post?! I should check & check again because I'm laffing too much... FUD supreme.
Unanswered Questions About the F-35’s Six-Day Flight to Israel [TOLDYA this is an excellent clickbaiter - FUD]
16 Dec 2016 Giovanni de Briganti
"After a six-day ferry flight from the United States –...
While no evidence of any failure has emerged, we have found no plausible explanation ...
[Then there is a long ramble about 'why was there a delay in the foggy departure' - it is hilarious]
...Yet more questions about F-35 operations that will remain unanswered." [I CANNOT [b]NOT
WAIT! - I'm outta here]
Source: http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... srael.html


<SARC ON> This Just In!!! I asked the janitor at Cameri AFB whether they had rats or mice at the hangar. He refused to answer but looked at me with a strange look as if he was hiding something. We CAN ONLY WONDER whether in fact there are not rats in the weapons bay of one or both of the Israeli F-35s, and probably every F-35 assembled there, that have eaten the wiring going to some control surface, endangering the children who are swimming on the beaches of California, which have also been known to have rats! You can count on me to keep at this story until Lockheed provides an answer! <SARC OFF>

Ain't it the truth!,
BP

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Mar 2017, 20:13
by spazsinbad
How will this story be spun by others above - gold into straw - a specialty of RumpleSweetmanSkin (graphic on request)...
Israel continues talks over additional F-15s
17 Mar 2017 Arie Egozi

"...In November 2016, the Israeli government approved the purchase of another 17 F-35Is, bringing to 50 the number of “Adir” strike aircraft planned for its air force.

The service has been evaluating a purchase of more F-15Is to maintain its desired mix of strike aircraft with the F-35 to satisfy future operational needs. Its initial requirement was identified as for 75 F-35s, but the need to replace the oldest examples of its Boeing-built fighter has become a high priority issue. Israel has operated the twin-engined type since 1976.

It has been decided that an evaluation of an advanced version of the F-15 should be completed before any additional F-35s are purchased. Israeli sources say ongoing talks with the US Department of Defense are related to a potentially 20- to 25-aircraft deal....

...Meanwhile, the Israeli air force in early March opened a dedicated maintenance training centre for the F-35I at Nevatim air base. The first such facility to be established outside the USA, this will support personnel training related to 25 different technical professions, the air force says. Israel requires line- and depot-level maintenance for the new type to be performed in-country, with only subsystems to be sent for support and repair overseas. Its air force took delivery of its first pair of Adirs last December."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 5s-435303/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 18 Mar 2017, 11:44
by fang
How will this story be spun others above - gold into straw - a specialty of RumpleSweetmanSkin (graphic on request)...

The IAF want eventually 75 F-35's (most of them A and probably few B) and 50 advanced F-15i (upgrading the existing and acquire another 25)
The upgrade process will include a new systems from the F-15SA such as AESA radar and local new systems.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 18 Mar 2017, 20:41
by SpudmanWP
I think that their biggest impetus for updated F-35s is to have the US pay for it.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2017, 17:02
by mixelflick
Here's where I'm confused..

They want 75 F-35's, and more "advanced" F-15's. I'm guessing the F-35 is going to be their primary strike bird. Reasons being the obvious (stealth) but also has the legs and sensors. The "advanced" F-15's I've seen flying look to be Super Strike Eagles, ala Saudi Arabia's F-15SA's. So... two strike birds? Doesn't make sense to me, doubly so given their F-16's are strikers too.

So perhaps they'll use these "advanced" F-15's in that 16 AAM loadout, for homeland defense and beating back airstrikes?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2017, 17:34
by quicksilver
Different 'factions' (whether they be part of a government or industry) often plant stories that support one position or another wrt future acquisitions.

As the acting SECAF and CSAF have said in recent days, new 4th gen anything are increasingly unattractive alternatives because it is clear that 4th gen capabilities are not competitive and the price point for F-35 is coming down. An F-15 is a large expensive aircraft.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2017, 22:29
by SpudmanWP
F-35Is can "kick the door down" for the follow-on F-15Is and also provide better SA for the entire package.

The F-15I can also carry 5k bunker busters.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2017, 23:05
by quicksilver
Why would a country pay more for the follow-on bomb truck than it would for the 'boot at the door,' particularly when they could turn the 'boot at the door' into a bomb truck with the addition of a couple pylons?

What's an FMS Eagle...120M?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 07:54
by Corsair1963
New F-15I's would cost more than the F-35's. So, what would be the point??? My guess is Israel is really taking about upgrading a number of her newer F-15I's already in service to a New Standard. (2040C?)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 07:56
by Corsair1963
Also, many seem to think the F-15I can carry a much larger external weapons load than the F-35A. Which, is not to the case at all....

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 11:51
by hornetfinn
Corsair1963 wrote:Also, many seem to think the F-15I can carry a much larger external weapons load than the F-35A. Which, is not to the case at all....


I've seen this countless times. I think it's because F-35 is said to replace F-16, F/A-18 and AV-8B, all of which have significantly smaller weapons load compared to F-15E variants. People don't seem to grasp the fact that F-35A and C are very close to F-15E in both payload and range.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 12:03
by botsing
SpudmanWP wrote:The F-15I can also carry 5k bunker busters.

Is there any plan/ability for the F-35 to also carry the 5k bunker buster? If not then we might have an answer.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 13:37
by hythelday
botsing wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:The F-15I can also carry 5k bunker busters.

Is there any plan/ability for the F-35 to also carry the 5k bunker buster? If not then we might have an answer.


Staition 3 & 9 are rated for 5000 pounds?

Might have more to do with sustaining capability now while Adirs are still few.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2017, 15:38
by Dragon029
Yep:

Image

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2017, 01:42
by SpudmanWP
Given that Israel has stated the desire to design & build large EFTs for the F-35s, they would take the same 5/9 station that a 5k bomb would so they could no be used together.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2017, 02:07
by popcorn
botsing wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:The F-15I can also carry 5k bunker busters.

Is there any plan/ability for the F-35 to also carry the 5k bunker buster? If not then we might have an answer.

The future is HVPW.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2017, 04:47
by Corsair1963
hornetfinn wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Also, many seem to think the F-15I can carry a much larger external weapons load than the F-35A. Which, is not to the case at all....


I've seen this countless times. I think it's because F-35 is said to replace F-16, F/A-18 and AV-8B, all of which have significantly smaller weapons load compared to F-15E variants. People don't seem to grasp the fact that F-35A and C are very close to F-15E in both payload and range.



Likely, better because the Strike Eagle usually has to carry both CFT's and External Fuel Tanks. Which, quickly get's it up to the gross weight of the aircraft. Leaving not much room for Weapons.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2017, 23:20
by zerion
Israel to get 3 more F-35 jets on Sunday

Jerusalem, Undefined | AFP | Israel is to take delivery of three more F-35 stealth fighters from the United States on Sunday, adding to two which arrived in December, an army statement said.

They are among 50 that Israel has agreed to buy from aerospace giant Lockheed Martin...

https://www.independent.co.ug/israel-ge ... ts-sunday/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2017, 21:17
by fang
IDF on youtube - the F-35i's during air refueling training in Texas


The IDF published this pic of the three F-35i's over the Atlantic ocean on the way to Israel
Note they carry US marking, Arrival to Nevatim AFB gonna be tomorrow afternoon

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2017, 19:28
by neptune
http://www.timesofisrael.com/three-more ... in-israel/

Three more F-35 fighter jets touch down in Israel

By Judah Ari Gross and AFP
April 23, 2017, 8:08 pm 2

Sunday’s acquisition brings total number of ‘Adir’ stealth aircraft up to five, out of 50 ordered by IAF. Three F-35 stealth fighter jets touched down at the Nevatim Air Force base in southern Israel on Sunday, joining the two that arrived late last year. In total, Israel has agreed to purchase 50 of the fifth generation stealth aircraft, known in Israel as the “Adir,” or “mighty one.” Israel is the first country outside the United States to receive the state-of-the-art fighter jet, which is manufactured by Lockheed Martin. The jets are flown by American pilots to Israel. Upon landing, they officially become the property of the Israeli government. The state-of-the-art F-35 is poised to become a central pillar of Israel’s air strategy, a senior air force official told reporters last November. The stealth fighter is considered one of the most advanced aircraft in the world, capable of taking on most missile defense batteries, including the Russian S-300, which was recently acquired by Iran, and which has been used in Syria, where Israeli planes reportedly fly sorties. The first of these landed in Israel last December. There were no high-ranking officials to greet the incoming fighter jets on Sunday, unlike when the first two F-35s landed. That reception ceremony was presided over by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, President Reuven Rivlin, Defense Minister Avigdor Liberman and then-US secretary of defense Ashton Carter.

Over the coming years, the remaining 45 planes will make their way to Israel — a handful every few months. According to IAF officials, it will take months — but likely less than a year — before the aircraft is declared combat operational, as the pilots and maintenance teams put the jet through its paces. Israeli components will be integrated in the aircraft, which will be known as the F-35I. Among its main features are advanced stealth capabilities to help pilots evade sophisticated missile systems. The single-pilot jets can carry an array of weapons and travel at a supersonic speed of Mach 1.6, or around 1,900 kilometers per hour (1,200 miles per hour). A pilot’s ultra-high-tech helmet, at a cost of some $400,000 each, includes its own operating system, with data that appears on the visor and is also shared elsewhere. Thermal and night vision as well as 360-degree views are possible with cameras mounted on the plane. Once servicing and maintenance costs are factored in over the aircraft’s lifespan through 2070, overall program costs are expected to soar to $1.5 trillion. Israel is buying its first 33 F-35s at an average price of about $110 million (NIS 400 million) each, though the rest are expected to be slightly cheaper. US President Donald Trump has publicly has upbraided Lockheed over “out of control” costs of the plane. It is the most expensive weapons program in history. The company has said it will bring down the price in the future, as its production costs are expected to go down.

https://youtu.be/HmhFfK76XXw

Mazel tov!

:)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2017, 21:55
by spazsinbad
Israel launches missile attacks on Syria
23 Apr 2017 Big News Network.com

"TEL AVIV, Israel - Syria has been rocked by a surprise missile attack by the Israel Air Force on Syrian army posts on Sunday. The bombing of the army posts follows a similar attack on Friday night, which Syrian government forces say caused considerable material damage....

...Sunday's bombing was believed to have been carried out by one of the two newly arrived U.S. F-35 stealth fighter planes which were provided to Israel by the United States last year. Coincidently, 3 more F-35 planes arrived in Israel on Sunday, boosting the number of F-35s in the Israel Air Force to five. Another 45 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters are on order for the Jewish State which last year secured under the Obama administration a 10 year program of annual grants for U.S. military assistance of $3.8 billion a year. Each of the F-35s is produced at a cost of $90 million making the total order worth $4.5 billion."

Source: http://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/2529 ... s-on-syria

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2017, 02:05
by neptune
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... F-35s.aspx

The Israeli F-35s

April 2017
By Gideon Grudo

With stealth and electronic capabilities far surpassing Israel’s other aircraft, the F-35 will introduce massive advances for the IAF.

In December, Israel took delivery, through the foreign military sales program, of its first two of a planned 50 F-35s. It was nearly 14 years after the Middle Eastern democracy first got involved in the fifth generation fighter program. What exactly this advanced aircraft is going to do for the Israeli Air Force (IAF) is, well, open to speculation. Some things are obvious. The F-35 will be expected to secure Israeli airspace and accurately attack ground targets, for example. But according to defense experts and the IAF officer in charge of the F-35 program, the fighter’s capability and capacity are so new and untested in the region (or elsewhere, really) that time will show exactly what else the F-35 is able to offer. IAF is certain the F-35’s impact will be mighty. So much so, in fact, that the Israelis named the F-35I (for Israel) Adir. It translates as “mighty” from Hebrew and is derived from the biblical book of Psalms. Accordingly, when the first two aircraft landed Dec. 12, 2016, at Nevatim Air Base, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu proclaimed, “Our long arm has now become longer and mightier.” In a January interview with Air Force Magazine, IAF Major Moti (the Israeli Air Force does not typically release the last names of its airmen), the air force’s program officer for the F-35, explained the service’s mood regarding the F-35: “There’s a lot of excitement.” While the IAF flies an arsenal of advanced fourth gen F-15s and F-16s, “this is the first fighter [that will offer Israel] stealth capability,” Moti said, and F-15s and F-16s simply don’t have the type of sensors the F-35s have. Compared to legacy fighters, F-35s will be able to safely enter threat arenas guarded by more advanced defenses and weapons. Moti said, “We need the advantage,” a reasonable necessity considering dangers such as those lurking to Israel’s north and east, including Hezbollah and Russian-armed Syria and Iran. There are 12 national customers of the F-35. Nine original partner nations had a role in setting up the specifications and procurement policies: Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Turkey, the UK, and the US. The three foreign military sales partners so far are Israel, Japan, and South Korea. Of the 12, some observers say Israel is the only country whose variant is unique. According to Lockheed Martin spokesperson Eric Schnaible, the company modified the F-35 for Israel in three main areas: command, control, communications, computers, and intelligence (C4I), electronic warfare, and weapons integration. Initially, the US refused to allow Israeli modifications to the F-35. The compromise reached involved not changing anything inside the aircraft, but allowing the Israelis to add capabilities on top of the existing infrastructure. State-run Israel Aerospace Industries, for example, is working on a C4I overlay for the F-35, with Lockheed Martin. “It’s open architecture, which sits on the F-35’s central system, much like an application on your iPhone,” Benni Cohen, general manager of IAI’s Lahav Division, told Defense News last year. “The F-35 Adir aircraft has also been provisioned to allow updates to EW and weapons interfaces,” Schnaible said. “The design of aircraft installations, power, and cooling have been modified to provide IAF the ability to incorporate indigenous weapons.” The types of weapons Israel will be adding to the F-35 are either classified or not yet known, and Moti wouldn’t confirm either. “It’s like a view to the future. We know we want to fly with Israeli weapons in this aircraft,” he said. “Because it’s so complex, we started working today on understanding how we can integrate future weapons.” The same goes for communications, the challenge being figuring out a way for the F-35 to communicate with the F-15s and F-16s it’s going to fly alongside. “We need to have Israeli communications,” Moti said. “The aircraft are supposed to speak in the same protocols.” As the F-35 is akin to “a flying computer,” Moti explained, “if you’re not speaking the same language as this computer, you cannot do anything.” Maintenance of the aircraft is going to be performed in Israel, at the Nevatim base. According to the Jerusalem Post, “Other countries that purchased the aircraft will have their maintenance done at regional centers, often outside their borders.”

Ahead of the Threats

In an August 2016 American Enterprise Institute study titled “The Strategic Impact of the S-300 in Iran,” author Christopher Harmer writes in the synopsis: “The deployment of S-300 [air defense system] components to Iran is a strategic game changer in the Middle East, giving Iran a significant strategic advantage against regional states and significantly complicating US air operations.” He adds: “Deployment of the S-300 in Iran means the US will need to recalibrate its current mix of airframes in the Middle East.” Harmer considers the S-300 “the most advanced surface-to-air missile system available for export to potential enemies of the United States.” The threat posed by advanced Russian S-300 series, surface-to-air missile systems applies equally to US allies such as Israel. For that reason, retired USAF Lt. Gen. David A. Deptula, dean of the Air Force Association’s Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies, called the F-35’s stealth an “enormous advantage.” This is because, with it, Israel “will be the only nation to be able to deal with some of the advanced surface-to-air and air-to-air dangers being introduced directly to the north,” he told Air Force Magazine.
But stealth is “only one part” of what the F-35 offers, Deptula argued. The aircraft “needs to be thought of as a sensor-shooter,” he said. The F-35 should actually be thought of as an “F-B-E/A-RC-E-AWACS-35,” as it will integrate capabilities seen in traditional fighters, bombers, electronic warfare aircraft, reconnaissance planes, and special electronic and airborne warning and control system platforms. If a missile is shot at it, for example, the F-35 can automatically detect where it came from and the pilot can automatically target that location. Communications links on the aircraft will allow it to gather information on hostiles even while it’s still on the ground. After it takes off, it learns more. “No other aircraft that the Israelis possess enables this,” Deptula said. This presents a “paradigm shift” in IAF’s situational awareness. After sensing danger, the F-35 will then be able to synthesize the information, applying it and sharing it with ground, naval, and air units outside that specific aircraft. In other words, an airborne F-35 isn’t an isolated capability, but a pair of eyes the entire Israel Defense Forces (IDF) will now have to equip the given theater. This type of knowledge advantage is essential for a country having “no depth to fall back on” in war, according to Deptula, and a potential Iranian conflict is real. “We have to pay very close attention and hold Iran to the letter of agreement,” he said of the recent deal governing Iran’s nuclear weapons research. “History indicates they will take every advantage to break out of the current agreement or, as soon as it expires, to bring rapid production of nuclear weapons,” Deptula said. “Iran is an existential threat to Israel.”

Reinventing the Air Force

The introduction of a unique aircraft like the F-35 will affect the nature of communication and war planning within the IDF. “Now we are going to have a mixed fleet,” said retired IAF Brig. Gen. Ephraim Segoli. He served in IAF for 25 years and in 1997 studied as a fellow at the School of Advanced Air and Space Studies, Maxwell AFB, Ala. In Israel, he eventually joined the Fisher Institute for Air and Space Strategic Studies, where he heads the Airpower and Asymmetric Conflict Research Center. “The F-35 is bringing a new culture. It is a big challenge. Not just a technical challenge, like how we talk,” but also how airmen and other branches of the military will use information, in what order, and with what aims. Like everything else with the F-35, “time and experience” will reveal the potential advantages and limitations of the aircraft, he said. The dichotomy within IAF on the new aircraft is a conflict between efficiency and operational capability, the former necessarily detracting from the reality of the latter. The longer you test, the longer it takes to bring an aircraft to operational status. Nine F-35Is are expected to reach initial operational capability in 2017, according to Brig. Gen. Tal Kelman, IAF’s chief of staff, which will make Israel the first country outside the US to have operational F-35s. “The level of uncertainty is very high,” Segoli said. “It’s very difficult to understand the real potential of this system.” The amount of information the F-35 is designed to gather and disseminate to the rest of IAF and IDF may also change the way IAF operates within the IDF. “In my opinion, the air force has a very unique part in any campaign planning,” said Segoli. “It was not done and it is not done,” he told Air Force Magazine in a January interview, referring to IAF’s role in holistically advising on military campaigns. “The air force must understand [the F-35] is not just there to improve one, two, or three capabilities.” While the F-35 can allow IAF to penetrate threats now being developed, Segoli emphasized he sees no current threats the F-35 is capable of attacking alone. Rather, he emphasized the role of the aircraft in deterring those rising threats. If Iran is considering rolling out nuclear capabilities, the F-35’s ability to fly past the country’s surface-to-air defense system may affect such plans.

The Cost Question

US President Donald Trump implied in a December 2016 tweet he may reduce the number of US F-35 purchases, and if that happens, Segoli explained, the value of the F-35 will be further scrutinized in Israel. “If you sell less, there will be an effect on the price,” Segoli said. If cost increases, this might become a problem. Some Israeli experts are already questioning the purchase, not seeing an immediate need for the deep capabilities of the F-35 when considering asymmetric opponents like Hamas and Hezbollah. Lockheed Martin plans to bring down the cost of the F-35 to around $85 million per unit by 2019. If that happens, Israel may save $435 million on 29 F-35s. “Before [an F-35I] even shoots a missile or drops a bomb,” Deptula said, the F-35 program is bringing nations together. This he termed “the greatest strategic value of the F-35.” Many countries operating common equipment such as the F-35 “engenders common defense strategies” that then encourage those nations to partner and work closer together, Deptula noted. He called this an “enormous value” and an intangible—but said that if he had to think of it in dollars, it’d be in the trillions. Still, at nearly $100 million a pop, the $5 billion price tag for 50 aircraft is a sticking point for many Israeli civilians. The populace is aware that the agreements in place to allow Israel to perform its own maintenance on the aircraft will raise Israeli sustainment costs. It may be years before the F-35 program settles into enough of a routine for today’s questions about unit costs and planned inventories to be resolved. But whatever quantities and capabilities the F-35 ends up offering later, within the IAF there is considerable agreement that it’ll be “adir.”

0417_Grudo_Israeli.pdf
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:)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2017, 02:22
by spazsinbad
On page four of this thread the SAME article appears in excerpts - what is your problem? Search on author name ffsake:

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=29374&p=363608&hilit=Grudo#p363608

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2017, 04:44
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:On page four of this thread the SAME article appears in excerpts - what is your problem? Search on author name ffsake:

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=29374&p=363608&hilit=Grudo#p363608


...well, IMHO the article deserves more than that abbreviated blurb...so that is "ffsake"...next time waste your efforts on something that matters.... :bang:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2017, 05:49
by spazsinbad
Let us face it - you are just making excuses. As I have said a few times now I'm FORBIDDEN to excerpt more than 50% of articles and to excerpt those parts that make my point. Perhaps the same MODERATOR rule should apply to you?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2017, 15:47
by steve2267
From spaz' quoted news article above:

Israel launches missile attacks on Syria
23 Apr 2017 Big News Network.com

...Sunday's bombing was believed to have been carried out by one of the two newly arrived U.S. F-35 stealth fighter planes which were provided to Israel by the United States last year. Coincidently, 3 more F-35 planes arrived in Israel on Sunday, boosting the number of F-35s in the Israel Air Force to five. ...

Source: http://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/2529 ... s-on-syria


From the DailyMail:
Netanyahu threatens to 'destroy' anyone who threatens Israel and 'directs a hatred of Jews' towards them in Holocaust Remembrance Day speech

By Rod Ardehali 24 April 2017

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has threatened to destroy enemies of the Jewish state.

In a speech marking the annual Holocaust Remembrance Day, the former special forces soldier turned politician warned: 'Those who threaten to destroy us risk being destroyed themselves.'

At the Yom Hashoah ceremony in Yad Vashem, Mr Netanyahu said: 'Iran and the Islamic state want to destroy us, and a hatred for Jews is being directed towards the Jewish state today.

'From being defenceless people, we have become a state with a defensive capacity that is among the strongest in the world,' he added.

Netanyahu said the lesson of the Holocaust is that 'we must be able to defend ourselves by ourselves against all threats and any enemy.'

Adding this lesson guides him 'every morning and every evening.'

...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4439274/Netanyahu-threatens-want-destroy-Israel.html


From the article (re-)quoted by Neptune:
The Israeli F-35s

By Gideon Grudo April 2017

... Accordingly, when the first two aircraft landed Dec. 12, 2016, at Nevatim Air Base, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu proclaimed, “Our long arm has now become longer and mightier.” ...

... According to Lockheed Martin spokesperson Eric Schnaible, the company modified the F-35 for Israel in three main areas: command, control, communications, computers, and intelligence (C4I), electronic warfare, and weapons integration. ...

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2017/April%202017/The-Israeli-F-35s.aspx


I don't think there can be any doubt that one of the Israeli's first priorities will be to integrate their "domestic" nuclear capability with the F-35, thereby directly threatening Iran (or any other ME actor), S-300 not-withstanding. The Persian's aren't stupid, so hopefully they "get it" and a sort of MAD stability settles over the ME.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2017, 17:18
by mixelflick
So these will be primarily air to ground birds, or air to air? Both??

From the write up, it's going to be doing a whole lot more than air to ground/interdiction work. Israel is widely known to have the best fighter pilots, but their hardware is rapidly ageing. Sure, the avionics etc have been updated but the basic F-15 and 16 airframes seem long in the tooth. Then again, I see no Super Flankers anywhere in Syria or other near enemy state. Russian SU-35's however, pose a more credible threat.

In that event, do you think the Adir would be pressed into an air superiority role? Perhaps similar to how F-22's team with USAF F-15's today???

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2017, 16:34
by spazsinbad
Lockheed VP: 'There’s a part of Israel in every F-35'
04 May 2017 Barbara Opall-Rome

"...As for the remaining 25 aircraft pre-approved for Israel by Washington, Israel Air Force officials are beginning to speak openly about its desire for the F-35B-Short Takeoff and Landing (STOVL) model.

“We understand that [STOVL] brings a different concept for fighter planes in general and for the F-35 in particular… I expect we will be involved in this here in Israel as we go forward,” Brig. Gen. Eyal Grinboym, commander of the F-35’s home base at Nevatim, told the same air power gathering.

In his address, Grimboym praised the aircraft for its performance, “fully-autonomous attack capabilities” and “the new concept” that it is introducing into the service’s entire frontline fighter force. He noted that the Israel Air Force is working to build new structures at his desert base in southern Israel to more appropriately accommodate the F-35 fleet.

As for North, the title of his lecture to the gathering was simply “F-35B STOVL,” further indication of the growing interest here in the short-takeoff and landing variant. In an interview prior to his conference address, North declined to say how far along the firm was in discussions with Israel on potential acquisition of the F-35B.

Nevertheless, North, a former commander of U.S. Air Force operations in the Pacific and Middle East theaters, said the B-model offers unique added value in scenarios where assets may have to operate from dispersed locations.

“The recent US Tomahawk strike into Syria demonstrates that fixed airfields could be destroyed or made unusable for a short period of time. So the B-model, with short takeoff and vertical landing, is a phenomenal platform that brings operational flexibility.”"

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/articles/loc ... every-f-35

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2017, 15:56
by spazsinbad
Israeli air force to receive unique test F-35
24 May 2017 Arie Egozi

"Israel's air force will take delivery of an additional Lockheed Martin F-35 in 2020 with a special suite of test instrumentation. "This unique aircraft, which was not part of any other F-35 contract, will enable us to begin the work of upgrading the capabilities of this aircraft so that it answers our special operational requirements," says the commander of the air force's test centre, identified only as Lt Col Shlomy.

The unique test aircraft is being manufactured according to specifications that took two years to prepare, he adds. It will be used to enhance the type's capabilities during air-to-air and air-to-ground missions.

"All our platforms have been upgraded to enable stretching the flight envelope while using the unique weapon systems made by Israeli industry," Shlomy says.

Planned updates to Israel's operational F-35I "Adir" fighters will be "directly connected" to the type's scheduled maintenance programme, "in order to not disrupt the aim of the shortest time on the ground between complex missions"."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 35-437569/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2017, 17:38
by neptune
In August 2012 Lockheed Martin received a $206 million award from the U.S. Navy Naval Air Systems Command, covering the development and integration of Israeli systems in the F-35A. Part of a larger package, the integration support agreement with Lockheed Martin covers a $450 million program to enhance Electronic Warfare (EW) equipment on the F-35, and integrate Israeli-unique systems beginning in 2016.

--...To further extend the F-35’s range, Lockheed Martin is exploring an innovative concept from Israel, of using unique drop tanks, developed by Elbit Systems Cyclone. Designed in a similar concept to the F-22 under-wing drop tanks, these tanks, each containing 425 gal. of fuel, will use special attachment pylons that would completely separate from the wing, regaining full stealth capability after separation. An additional 900 (850) gal. of fuel (EFT)will significantly extend the F-35I range, enabling the IAF to operate its new stealth fighter at the “outer ring” of operation without mandatory aerial refueling."

....So what other "current" Israeli weapons can be tested and added to the F-35I??

- "The Israeli Air Force plans to arm the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II fighters with Python-5 missiles."
- "the I-Derby RAFAEL utilized a new, Software Defined Active Radar seeker, based on combat-proven seeker developed by RAFAEL for the Tamir missile, used with the company’s Iron Dome counter Rocket, Artillery and Missile (C-RAM) system. Using an active radar for target seeking, the missiles enables multi-shot engagement from - air-launched platforms. With this sensor and its signal processing algorithms the missile enables look-down/shoot-down capability, and advanced operating modes, adding to the ‘fire and forget’. Further improvements are enabled for the missile’s ECCM capability, tailoring the weapon’s behavior to the customer’s operational requirements.
- The I-Derby ER incorporates the innovative I-Derby RF seeker combined with a dramatic increase of kinematic performance (up to 100Km)
- The Advanced Naval Attack Missile is a new member in MBT Missile's family of naval attack missiles. The missile uses an advanced active radar seeker and a sophisticated weapon control system to achieve very high operational effectiveness. With dimensions similar to the Exocet and Harpoon, Gabriel-5 represents the latest member to IAI's Gabriel Missile family of naval attack missiles. The new Gabriel 5 is designed to offer superior performance compared to most contemporary missiles, particularly when employed in littoral waters against sophisticated soft- and hard-kill protected targets.
- SPICE is fully operational and has recently demonstrated outstanding combat performance in all parameters to become one of the Israeli Air Force's leading air-to-surface weapon systems. Spice guidance kits convert 1000 lb and 2000 lb general purpose and penetration warheads into precision stand-off strike weapons (Spice-1000 and Spice-2000). SPICE-1000 kit for 1000 lb. general purpose or penetration warheads, such as MK-83 and RAP1000, with a stand-off range of 100 kilometers. SPICE-2000 kit for 2000 lb. general purpose or penetration warheads, such as MK-84, RAP2000 and BLU-109, with a stand-off range of 60 kilometers.
- SPICE-250 - the latest addition to the SPICE family - is a new generation stand-off Precision Guided Munition (PGM). SPICE-250 has a standoff range of 100 kilometers. The SPICE-250 is an autonomous weapon with real time target position update capability. SPICE-250 is a unitary munition and can be equipped with either general purpose or penetration warheads. Aircraft increase load-out and wide target set provide the optimal solution for high volume precise strike for the dynamic battlefield. SPICE is easily integrated onto a wide range of single and dual-seated fighter aircraft, and requires no aircraft modifications. SPICE-250 uses a common aircraft interface and sophisticated Smart Quad Rack (SQR) that simplifies the effort needed for aircraft integration. Four SPICE-250 weapons are carried on each SQR. SPICE-250 can be directly mounted on light attack aircraft store stations, due to its small size and light weight. SPICE is fully operational and has recently demonstrated outstanding combat performance in all parameters to become one the Israeli Air Force's leading air-to-surface weapon systems.

...I'm sure there are others but these seem to cover the gamut of US weapons, todate.
...what no lasers, no chameleon camo, no twice as fast and twice as far Israeli magic??
:)

...has UAI been released to the NATO allies?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 16:16
by zerion
Israel Completes Order For 50 Lockheed Martin F-35 Fighter jets

Israel's Ministry of Defense recently sent a letter to the US Department of Defense to complete the purchase of 17 F-35 jets, Israel's Walla News reported on Thursday. Each plane costs approximately US$100 million. The acquisition was first announced in November 2016, and brings the total number of F-35s purchased by Israel to 50.
Israel is the only country in the Middle East to have the jet, which was not included in the recent arms deal signed between the US and Saudi Arabia.
The Israeli version of the F-35, the "Adir", had its first test flight at the Lockheed Martin facility in Fort Worth, Texas in July 2016. Five of the planes are currently in operation out of southern Israel's Nevatim air base, with two more due to arrive in August, a further two in September, and nine additional planes in 2018.
Israel is also expected to receive a test plane for experimenting with new technologies.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/19526/ ... Tq7ietHarU

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 00:41
by popcorn

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 03 Aug 2017, 17:05
by spazsinbad
The cryptic 'popcorn' URL above also mentions F-35Bs for Israel & here we go again - despite the naysayers - Bs ROOL! :doh:
Israel weighing interest in STOVL-variant F-35
03 Aug 2017 Arie Egozi

"New threats faced by Israel have placed the potential purchase of short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) variant Lockheed Martin F-35Bs as a high priority. Discussions are under way, with Israel's defence ministry hoping to reach a decision before a new 10-year Foreign Military Financing agreement with the USA comes into effect in 2019.

Deliveries of conventional take-off and landing F-35Is to the Israeli air force continue, with the service having so far placed orders for 50 examples. The “Golden Eagle” squadron which operates the "Adir" and the air force's flight test squadron continue to adapt the stealth fighter to meet the nation's specific requirements, with this work including the addition of a number of Israeli-developed systems....

...Sources indicate that the Israeli air force will have to choose between obtaining additional F-35s – potentially including STOVL examples – or an advanced version of the F-15... capable of carrying an expanded weapons load."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 35-439959/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 03 Aug 2017, 18:00
by mixelflick
I always said the Israeli's would be first to bloody the F-35, now I just hope they can use it air to air.

It speaks volumes IMO that they're upping their order. I would expect an additional order for up to 25 B's in lieu of more F-15's, as Israel has to have a backup plan if her airfields are hit/put out of commission. Seeing as Israel is just focused on survival instead of grabbing large swath's of land, her F-15's and 16's can handle the air defense mission.

It is only a matter of time before the Iranian reactor is hit, and you can bet once the F-35 reaches critical mass there (25 airframes?), they'll use it to finish the job...

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 05 Aug 2017, 12:59
by nutshell
mixelflick wrote:I always said the Israeli's would be first to bloody the F-35, now I just hope they can use it air to air.

It speaks volumes IMO that they're upping their order. I would expect an additional order for up to 25 B's in lieu of more F-15's, as Israel has to have a backup plan if her airfields are hit/put out of commission. Seeing as Israel is just focused on survival instead of grabbing large swath's of land, her F-15's and 16's can handle the air defense mission.

It is only a matter of time before the Iranian reactor is hit, and you can bet once the F-35 reaches critical mass there (25 airframes?), they'll use it to finish the job...


Israel is by itself a sort of benchmark. If they buy something for their military and ask for more, then you already have a hint or two on how good the product is.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 05 Aug 2017, 17:12
by talkitron
nutshell wrote:Israel is by itself a sort of benchmark. If they buy something for their military and ask for more, then you already have a hint or two on how good the product is.


Israel has good tastes within the spectrum of US weapons. Except for submarines from Germany, Israel is doing little importing of weapon systems from countries other than the US. This is likely because of massive US military aid that comes with buy American type clauses and a strong-per-citizen domestic arms industry.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 05 Aug 2017, 18:53
by blindpilot
talkitron wrote:... Except for submarines from Germany, Israel is doing little importing of weapon systems... because of massive US military aid that comes with buy American type clauses ...


That's a loop hole you could drive a bus through. Those subs are ... first two totally paid for by Germany, and last ones Germany pays 1/3 the price. AND Israel used "US Aid" to help pay for the other 2/3. And it's not just because the US doesn't offer "non-nuclear powered subs" to compete. Israel does the same thing with ships, missiles, radars etc.

I agree with the basic premise that Israel looks to "dance with the one that brung her," but she would buy German subsidized Eurofighters in a heartbeat if they were considered better, and use US Aid to help pay for them. (see Eurocopter AS565, Italian M-346 etc.)

Israel always buys what she considers "the Best Available."

Just saying,
BP

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 05 Aug 2017, 20:04
by SpudmanWP
Keep in mind that the US does not build or have expertise in AIP or diesel subs, let alone littoral subs.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2017, 01:35
by alloycowboy
blindpilot wrote:
talkitron wrote:... Except for submarines from Germany, Israel is doing little importing of weapon systems... because of massive US military aid that comes with buy American type clauses ...


That's a loop hole you could drive a bus through. Those subs are ... first two totally paid for by Germany, and last ones Germany pays 1/3 the price. AND Israel used "US Aid" to help pay for the other 2/3. And it's not just because the US doesn't offer "non-nuclear powered subs" to compete. Israel does the same thing with ships, missiles, radars etc.

I agree with the basic premise that Israel looks to "dance with the one that brung her," but she would buy German subsidized Eurofighters in a heartbeat if they were considered better, and use US Aid to help pay for them. (see Eurocopter AS565, Italian M-346 etc.)

Israel always buys what she considers "the Best Available."

Just saying,
BP


Also like the Gopro and the Iphone the market for F-35 accessories is going to be huge ($$$,$$$,$$$,$$$) and it would be foolish for Isreali aerospace companies not to grab a big piece of that market. (Ie. large stealth drop tanks)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2017, 02:15
by vanshilar
alloycowboy wrote:(Ie. large stealth drop tanks)


I always wonder if stealth drop tanks will be "export controlled" i.e. not allowed to drop it in enemy territory :mrgreen:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2017, 04:35
by talkitron
SpudmanWP wrote:Keep in mind that the US does not build or have expertise in AIP or diesel subs, let alone littoral subs.


Israeli subs seem to have a strategic nuclear role, i.e. a retaliatory strike against Iran. Part of the controversial, recent German deal seems to be about keeping a sub in the Persian Gulf to keep Iran on its good behavior.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 09 Aug 2017, 10:38
by doge
http://english.pnn.ps/2017/08/09/three- ... g-on-gaza/
Army spokesperson also said that the F35 aircrafts were used for the first time in an attack on Gaza.

!?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 09 Aug 2017, 11:13
by hythelday
doge wrote:http://english.pnn.ps/2017/08/09/three-palestinians-wounded-in-israeli-shelling-on-gaza/
Army spokesperson also said that the F35 aircrafts were used for the first time in an attack on Gaza.

!?


Questionable source.

Jerusalem Post also said "F-35 were reported", but by whom? Haaretz and Times of Israel didn't mention aircraft models.

Most importantly IDF official channels did not report about aircraft either:

https://mobile.twitter.com/IDFSpokesper ... 4713980928

Unfortunately Israel MoD and IAF websites are void of news regarding this event.

Article with plenty of of vids:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-je ... et-strike/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 09 Aug 2017, 16:52
by nutshell
I talk directly from my personal experience (worked on OTO melara- Finemccanica; targetting and comms systems and maintenance).

Israelis are picky, stubborn, arrogant too but they only buy the stuff they think is best.

They dont give a **** of your british or german or american.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2017, 01:15
by spazsinbad
Procurement a key priority for Israel's new air force chief
15 Aug 2017 Arie Egozi

"The appointment of Maj Gen Amikam Norkin as the Israeli air force's new commander could expedite some of its procurement plans, including for the Boeing KC-46A tanker, Lockheed Martin F-35 and longer-endurance unmanned air vehicles....

...The air force's most urgent decisions are related to the procurement of more F-35Is, beyond the 50 that are already included in signed contracts, purchasing KC-46A tankers and developing and buying long-endurance UAVs with multiple payloads. The service has also recently shown an interest in acquiring the short take-off and vertical landing variant of the F-35."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... rc-440297/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2017, 16:24
by mixelflick
I say they buy a minimum of 25 B's, perhaps up to 50.

The A's will fly the strike on the Iranian nuclear reactor. The B's... God only knows. Perhaps point defense protecting Israel, in the event missiles/enemy aircraft knock out her airfields...

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2017, 16:38
by jakobs
I still don't see the need for the B's.


It seems to me it would just be better to build up a network of road bases to use with the regular A's and don't have to deal with the drawbacks of the B's.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2017, 16:49
by spazsinbad
It seems to me that Israel wants to deal with the POSITIVES of the F-35Bs despite your negative perceptions of the F-35B.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2017, 16:51
by SpudmanWP
jakobs wrote:I still don't see the need for the B's.


[cough]LHA[/cough]

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2017, 20:34
by wewuzkangz
@neptune

"The stealth fighter is considered one of the most advanced aircraft in the world, capable of taking on most missile defense batteries, including the Russian S-300, which was recently acquired by Iran, and which has been used in Syria, where Israeli planes reportedly fly sorties."

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/03/17 ... es-second/ Israel denied the claims of any f-16s getting shot down however Libermans pissed response sort of counteracts the denial claim http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/84 ... king-twice ......Its pretty funny when I think about it reports came of f-35s destroying s-300s in march 7 than 10 later reports of s-300 downing f-16s. I have only heard of pantsir-s1, s-300 and s-400 being delivered to syria that is all.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2017, 21:57
by botsing
wewuzkangz wrote:Its pretty funny when I think about it reports came of f-35s destroying s-300s in march 7 than 10 later reports of s-300 downing f-16s. I have only heard of pantsir-s1, s-300 and s-400 being delivered to syria that is all.

Let me check...

* F-35 destroying S-300? No reliable sources for that.
* F-16 shot down by S-300? No reliable sources for that.
* S-400 delivered to Syria? You might mean that Russia operates one inside Syria, though knowing your posting history this probably flew over your head and you misinterpreted it.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 02:27
by XanderCrews
wewuzkangz wrote:@..Its pretty funny when I think about it reports came of f-35s destroying s-300s in march 7 than 10 later reports of s-300 downing f-16s. I have only heard of pantsir-s1, s-300 and s-400 being delivered to syria that is all.


It's pretty funny how you believe everything you hear and start getting contradictions

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 02:29
by XanderCrews
jakobs wrote:I still don't see the need for the B's.


It seems to me it would just be better to build up a network of road bases to use with the regular A's and don't have to deal with the drawbacks of the B's.



Buy the B's and not have to deal with the drawbacks of road bases

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 04:21
by rheonomic
Everyone has to sh*t on the B; ironically it's probably the most impressive variant in terms of the engineering required.

Isreal should buy even more. :D

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 07:49
by hythelday
Maj, Gen. Amir Eshel, former chief of IAF, says:

"Israel struck arms convoys on several enemy fronts nearly 100 times in past five years ... when Israel has a vested interest, it acts irrespective of the risks"

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.807246

Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who even remotely monitors ME news. All those explosions in downtown Damascus weren't from neglect of fire safety rules.

Iran is in dire need those ROFAR 3D radars right about now.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 10:34
by mk82
hythelday wrote:Maj, Gen. Amir Eshel, former chief of IAF, says:

"Israel struck arms convoys on several enemy fronts nearly 100 times in past five years ... when Israel has a vested interest, it acts irrespective of the risks"

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.807246

Shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who even remotely monitors ME news. All those explosions in downtown Damascus weren't from neglect of fire safety rules.

Iran is in dire need those ROFAR 3D radars right about now.


Iran subsequently discovered that their ROFAR 3D radars are actually shiny disco balls that shoot out feeble photons....good enough for a dance session in Studio 54 bwahahahaha :mrgreen:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2017, 00:03
by USMilFan
nutshell wrote:Israel is by itself a sort of benchmark. If they buy something for their military and ask for more, then you already have a hint or two on how good the product is.


I fully agree that Israel is a reliable benchmark, especially for armchair outsiders like me who have no experience in or exposure to aviation. I only know that Israel depends on its air force for its very survival. While I find pilots like Chip Berke utterly persuasive, Israel's commitment to the F-35 is what gives me total confidence in the plane.

It is noteworthy that Israel's choice to buy F-35's implies that its forces will have abandoned its traditional doctrines of aerial warfare and embraced the revolutionary advancements brought by fifth-gen warfare concepts. This is no small thing to a country that has for decades depended on its very survival by adhering faithfully to pre-fifth-gen concepts of warfare.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2017, 04:38
by nutshell
USMilFan wrote: This is no small thing to a country that has for decades depended on its very survival by adhering faithfully to pre-fifth-gen concepts of warfare.


They surely are not in the position where they could have a F104 or a legacy Hornet.
Their doctrine was always quite clean "Sheer overwhelming quality". The F35 brings them 3 things: quality,quality and quality.

jakobs wrote:I still don't see the need for the B's.


It seems to me it would just be better to build up a network of road bases to use with the regular A's and don't have to deal with the drawbacks of the B's.


For a country like mine its a god send.

I mean, we built the Cavour carrier around the massive flexibility of the Bee.

Furthermore, when you operate in hostile territory, you don't always have the luxury of bigger airstrips. So the B is nothing but the most advanced strike aircraft able to operate pretty much everywhere, even in my backyard.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2017, 04:57
by neptune
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... es-440473/

Israel tests F-35I refueling procedures

22 AUGUST, 2017
BY: ARIE EGOZI TEL AVIV

Israel has begun an evaluation campaign using its air force's fleet of Lockheed Martin F-35I "Adirs" to test locally developed systems and aerial refuelling procedures for the type. The trials are a key step as the air force works towards initial operational capability for its Joint Strike Fighters. Aerial refuelling tests have been conducted from Tel-Nof air base using one of the service's Boeing 707 tankers. Israel received its first of an eventual 50 of the conventional take-off and landing A-model F-35s in late 2016.
:)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2017, 05:18
by arrow-nautics
jakobs wrote:I still don't see the need for the B's. It seems to me it would just be better to build up a network of road bases to use with the regular A's and don't have to deal with the drawbacks of the B's.


When you study & reflect on Israel's wars & history it makes sense they want a short range killer. There's always going to be a Golan Heights regardless off who holds it! It's always been a key strategic point. Defensively & offensively it does make sense for Israel IMO

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2017, 13:44
by steve2267
arrow-nautics wrote:
jakobs wrote:I still don't see the need for the B's. It seems to me it would just be better to build up a network of road bases to use with the regular A's and don't have to deal with the drawbacks of the B's.


When you study & reflect on Israel's wars & history it makes sense they want a short range killer. There's always going to be a Golan Heights regardless off who holds it! It's always been a key strategic point. Defensively & offensively it does make sense for Israel IMO


A "short range" aircraft with longer legs than a SHornet?

People are always hitting on the F-35B for being "short range" when it has better range than most (if not all) western 4th gen aircraft (certainly if they weren't lugging around bags). It's only "short range" compared to the "-A" and "-C" models.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2017, 14:22
by botsing
steve2267 wrote:
arrow-nautics wrote:
jakobs wrote:I still don't see the need for the B's. It seems to me it would just be better to build up a network of road bases to use with the regular A's and don't have to deal with the drawbacks of the B's.


When you study & reflect on Israel's wars & history it makes sense they want a short range killer. There's always going to be a Golan Heights regardless off who holds it! It's always been a key strategic point. Defensively & offensively it does make sense for Israel IMO


A "short range" aircraft with longer legs than a SHornet?

People are always hitting on the F-35B for being "short range" when it has better range than most (if not all) western 4th gen aircraft (certainly if they weren't lugging around bags). It's only "short range" compared to the "-A" and "-C" models.

A "short-range" as in "closer to the front" can mean a higher sortie rate and faster response, the F-35B would be perfect for that job.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2017, 14:32
by SpudmanWP
I think "short range" refers to the AAM (ie ASRAAM, 9X, etc) and not the plane caring the AAM.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2017, 16:38
by XanderCrews
Israel figured out a long time ago that sortie generation trumps fleets. Take 1 airplane and have it do 10 missions instead of 10 airplanes doing one.

The F-35B is a natural fit.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 24 Aug 2017, 16:02
by hythelday
Maj. Gen. Amir Eshel expands on his 5 year tenure as IAF commandder, says this about F-35:

“[The Americans] embarked on something very ambitious in its capabilities. We already see what this plane has. Not everything is perfect. There are things you learn along the way. That’s been the case with every plane we acquired. But when you take off in this plane from Nevatim [base], you can’t believe it. At 5,000 feet, the whole Middle East is there for you in the cockpit. You see things, it’s inconceivable. American pilots who visit us haven’t seen anything like it, because they fly over Arizona or Florida, and here they suddenly see the [entire] Middle East as a combat zone – the threats, the different players, at both close range and long range. Only then do you grasp the enormous potential of this machine. We’re already seeing it with our eyes.”


http://www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/ ... m-1.808556

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2017, 13:31
by fang
Israel finalizes agreements to buy 17 more F-35 jets
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-fin ... f-35-jets/

On tuesday (Aug 29) another two F-35i's (should be AS-6 & AS-7) will depart Texas on the way to Nevatim AFB in Israel.
In October two more F-35i's (AS-8 & AS-9) will join the fleet in Israel.
IOC to be declared in 12/2017 with all the 9 aircrafts.

Head of the F-35 JPO Visits Israel
http://www.iaf.org.il/4463-49463-en/IAF.aspx

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 27 Aug 2017, 23:38
by SpudmanWP
fang wrote:Israel finalizes agreements to buy 17 more F-35 jets


DEATH SPIRAL............... :mrgreen:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2017, 05:45
by gc
hythelday wrote:Maj. Gen. Amir Eshel expands on his 5 year tenure as IAF commandder, says this about F-35:

“[The Americans] embarked on something very ambitious in its capabilities. We already see what this plane has. Not everything is perfect. There are things you learn along the way. That’s been the case with every plane we acquired. But when you take off in this plane from Nevatim [base], you can’t believe it. At 5,000 feet, the whole Middle East is there for you in the cockpit. You see things, it’s inconceivable. American pilots who visit us haven’t seen anything like it, because they fly over Arizona or Florida, and here they suddenly see the [entire] Middle East as a combat zone – the threats, the different players, at both close range and long range. Only then do you grasp the enormous potential of this machine. We’re already seeing it with our eyes.”


http://www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/ ... m-1.808556


With the advanced ESM systems aboard the F-22 and F-35, I do not see why they cannot be used over the eastern Europe and western pacific region to gather intel on threat emitter characteristics and location data. Using these stealth fighter platforms seems much safer than using lumbering RC-135s and EP-3Es which are prone to dangerous air to air intercepts by Russian and Chinese fighters. Anyone knows if the ALR-94 and ASQ-239 system can collect and store raw data for analysis in the lab in a similar manner to traditional SIGINT platforms?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2017, 09:55
by hythelday
gc wrote: Anyone knows if the ALR-94 and ASQ-239 system can collect and store raw data for analysis in the lab in a similar manner to traditional SIGINT platforms?


Nice try, SVR :mrgreen:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2017, 11:45
by spazsinbad
Purchase finalized for 17 more F-35 stealth fighter jets
27 Aug 2017 Yoav Zitun

"...According to the contract, the planes' delivery will be completed by December 2024. "This is the third deal for F-35 purchases the Ministry of Defense has penned in the past decade alone," said Dubi Lavie, the head of the Israeli delegation to the US.

"With every series of jets coming off the production line, the American manufacturer has committed to bringing the price for an individual plane down," Lavie added. "We're happy to announce that on this particular deal, the American project manager has successfully negotiated with the manufacturing company to bring down the average per-plane price to below $100 million. This is a significant reduction compared to the planes Israel has brought thus far."

In the first deal, Israel paid $125 million per plane for 19 F-35s in total. In the second deal, the price went down to $112 million per plane for 14 jets. Israel expects the price to drop below $90 million per plane when it approaches the US again for planes for a third flight squadron.

This price reduction came after the Pentagon ordered 50 new jets from manufacturer Lockheed Martin. F-35 jets are considered to be more expensive for the Israeli Air Force compared to those purchased by the US Air Force due to the number of unique systems [BLACK BOX Interface] installed onboard the planes as per the operational requirements made by the IDF....

...All 50 planes the Ministry of Defense procured for the air force are of the A model but were integrated with unique capabilities and advanced Israeli weapon systems."

Source: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 50,00.html

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2017, 14:10
by sunstersun
I think Israel will eventually get up to 100 F-35's.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2017, 23:17
by afjag
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Two-F- ... yed-503713

TWO F-35S DUE TO LAND IN ISRAEL NEXT WEEK DELAYED

The arrival of two F-35 “Adir” stealth fighter jets expected to land in Israel in the coming days has been delayed due to technical problems found in other F-35s.

While there were no problems discovered in the Israeli jets, “according to the decision of the US Air Force, the arrival of the two F-35 ‘Adir’ jets will be delayed for a short period of time in order to complete the technical inspection of aircraft,” the IDF said on Tuesday.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2017, 13:23
by fang
Delivery of two F-35 jets delayed over issue in different model
https://www.timesofisrael.com/delivery- ... ent-model/

Does anyone know what's the problems with the other US aircraft?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 13:21
by mas
F-35 offers Israel 'entire Middle East' from the cockpit

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origina ... ority.html

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 17:45
by spazsinbad
Perhaps the 'unknown' reason and just my WAG is that the aircraft delivered need to be 'operational' when they arrive?
Israel orders additional F-35s
29 Aug 2017 Yaakov Lappin

"...The military source told Jane’s in July that the five that have already been delivered will be declared fully operational in December and that all aircraft that will subsequently be delivered will be considered operational when they arrive...."

Source: http://www.janes.com/article/73407/isra ... onal-f-35s

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 18:17
by botsing
spazsinbad wrote:Perhaps the 'unknown' reason and just my WAG is that the aircraft delivered need to be 'operational' when they arrive?
Israel orders additional F-35s
29 Aug 2017 Yaakov Lappin

"...The military source told Jane’s in July that the five that have already been delivered will be declared fully operational in December and that all aircraft that will subsequently be delivered will be considered operational when they arrive...."

Source: http://www.janes.com/article/73407/isra ... onal-f-35s

You mean with block 3F loaded? Good thinking!

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 19:31
by mas
fang wrote:Delivery of two F-35 jets delayed over issue in different model
https://www.timesofisrael.com/delivery- ... ent-model/

Does anyone know what's the problems with the other US aircraft?


“The manufacturer found a trivial mishap in the fuel pipe of model B planes, while our planes are model A. But the manufacturer wanted to be sure that the model A's don’t have the same problem, so he asked our approval to delay the arrival to next week. Of course, we agreed.”

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origina ... ority.html

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 21:05
by neptune
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Two-F- ... yed-503713

Two F-35s due to land in Israel next week delayed

By Anna Ahronheim
August 29, 2017 19:32

USAF takes decision after technical problems found in other jets.

The arrival of two F-35 “Adir” stealth fighter jets expected to land in Israel next week have been delayed by the United States Air Force in order to complete technical tests in one of the planes. afjag

While there were no problems discovered in the Israeli jets, “according to the decision of the US Air Force, the arrival of the two F-35 ‘Adir’ jets will be delayed for a short period of time in order to complete the technical inspection of aircraft,” the IDF said on Tuesday. Israel, which has already received five F-35 “Adir” jets now being tested by the IAF, was supposed to receive the two jets in the coming days and another two jets by November. afjag

The Jewish state is expected to announce initial operation capability of the first squadron by December 7. The delay will not affect the planned IOC declaration in December, the IDF said. While touted as the world’s most advanced jet, the F-35 is a controversial plane with a long series of failures and delays.

..... On Sunday, Israel completed the acquisition process of an additional 17 F-35 stealth jets whose delivery is to be made by December 2024, bring the total in the Israel Air Force to 50. The planes are being purchased as part of the military aid agreement with the United States. In the first deal, Israel purchased 19 F-35s at a cost of $125 million each, and a second agreement for 14 jets saw Jerusalem pay $112m. per plane. The cost of the plane is expected to drop to around $80m. in the coming years.

Built in the United States by Lockheed Martin, the Israeli F-35s have components built by Israeli companies, including Israel Aerospace Industries, which produced the outer wings, Elbit System-Cyclone, which built the center fuselage composite components and Elbit Systems Ltd., which manufactured the helmets worn by the pilots. The jets were designed to Israel’s specifications and will be embedded with Israeli-made electronic warfare pods as well as Israeli weaponry, all set to be installed once the planes are in Israel...
:)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 21:40
by ricnunes
gc wrote: Anyone knows if the ALR-94 and ASQ-239 system can collect and store raw data for analysis in the lab in a similar manner to traditional SIGINT platforms?


Actually I have the exact same question :wink:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 23:31
by popcorn
5Gens have been called 'antenna farms' so maybe they're hinting at some thing.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2017, 21:57
by mas
The Israeli Air Force (IAF) has hurried to smooth any ruffled feathers. “Everything is fine, and there is no malfunctioning that is relevant to us,” a high-level IAF source told Al-Monitor, speaking on the condition of anonymity. “The manufacturer found a trivial mishap in the fuel pipe of model B planes, while our planes are model A. But the manufacturer wanted to be sure that the model A's don’t have the same problem, so he asked our approval to delay the arrival to next week. Of course, we agreed.”

http://tinyurl.com/y98ev6jo

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2017, 16:03
by sunstersun
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.810426

The A version, which is what the 50 F-35s Israel is committed to buying are, is not only the most expensive version of the aircraft but the least sophisticated; version B will have the ability to take off and land on shorter runways and even vertically.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.810426

The pure ignorance surrounding this program is insane.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2017, 16:12
by spazsinbad
I cannot read the article - only this part from the Headline & sub headline I guess:
F-35 Jets Deal: Did Israel Waste $200 Million by Buying Too Soon?
04 Sep 2017 Hagai Amit

"Critics of the follow-on order for 17 of the fighter jets, whose terms were completed last week, say the air force should have waited till the price fell and the bugs were fixed...."

Source: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.810426


That may be a point however there is no time like the present as has been explained by a few Israeli Air Force generals. A link in the above article points to this one - which I can read - go figure.
Israel Takes Delivery of Three New F-35 Stealth Fighter Jets
23 Apr 2017 Gili Cohen

"...An IAF officer who was involved in the procurement process and who spoke on the condition of anonymity said that whereas in the first F-35 procurement deal, consisting of 33 planes, each plane cost around $100 million, in the deal signed in November for the purchase of 17 planes the per-unit cost dropped to around $85 million. The planes are purchased as part of the military aid agreement between Israel and the United States."

Source: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.785194

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2017, 17:30
by pmi
The A version, which is what the 50 F-35s Israel is committed to buying are, is not only the most expensive version of the aircraft but the least sophisticated;


Where in the world did they come up with that idea?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2017, 19:38
by neptune
pmi wrote:
The A version, which is what the 50 F-35s Israel is committed to buying are, is not only the most expensive version of the aircraft but the least sophisticated;


Where in the world did they come up with that idea?


...consider the source!
:)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2017, 17:44
by mixelflick
OK so Israel is paying for additional F-35's. And what I got out of this thread was that they're acquiring them ASAP regardless of unit cost dropping as time goes on. The comment about seeing the entire middle east once airborne, their zeal about buying more/considering the B speaks volumes.

Lets be honest: Acquiring the F-35 means they now have the ability to hit Iran's nuclear sites. Sure, the range is a stretch but we've seen how they've done it before. To me, their enthusiasm for the says it all.

The US has a winner, and it won't be long before there will be thousands in service - leap frogging Russian 4++ designs in the process

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2017, 15:42
by sunstersun

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2017, 17:06
by wrightwing
sunstersun wrote:http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.810426

The A version, which is what the 50 F-35s Israel is committed to buying are, is not only the most expensive version of the aircraft but the least sophisticated; version B will have the ability to take off and land on shorter runways and even vertically.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.810426

The pure ignorance surrounding this program is insane.

The pure ignorance surrounding this post is insane. The A model is the least expensive (the C model is the most expensive), and all 3 variants have the exact same avionics/sensors/etc.....

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2017, 17:30
by sunstersun
wrightwing wrote:
sunstersun wrote:http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.810426

The A version, which is what the 50 F-35s Israel is committed to buying are, is not only the most expensive version of the aircraft but the least sophisticated; version B will have the ability to take off and land on shorter runways and even vertically.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.810426

The pure ignorance surrounding this program is insane.

The pure ignorance surrounding this post is insane. The A model is the least expensive (the C model is the most expensive), and all 3 variants have the exact same avionics/sensors/etc.....


In fact the A model is the only plane with internal guns.

People say wikipedia shouldn't be a valid source, yet actual journalists would benefit from it.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2017, 17:39
by SpudmanWP
sunstersun wrote:People say wikipedia shouldn't be a valid source, yet actual journalists would benefit from it.

Maybe if you had used it then you would have known that the F-35A is the least expensive of the three and that they all share the same avionics (ie "sophistication"). :doh:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2017, 18:31
by sunstersun
SpudmanWP wrote:
sunstersun wrote:People say wikipedia shouldn't be a valid source, yet actual journalists would benefit from it.

Maybe if you had used it then you would have known that the F-35A is the least expensive of the three and that they all share the same avionics (ie "sophistication"). :doh:


what i know that. it was the article who claimed the f-35A was the most expensive.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2017, 19:03
by SpudmanWP
OK.. The quotes and the way you referenced the article made it seem like you were agreeing with it.

Sorry for the confusion.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2017, 09:47
by fang
AS-6 & AS-7 landed yesterday at Nevatim AFB, Israel.
140FS got now 7 F-35i's and in the coming two months will get two more.
IOC probably in Dec. 2017

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Sep 2017, 06:58
by spazsinbad
New additions boost Israel's F-35 fleet
15 Sep 2017 Arie Egozi

"Israel's latest pair of Lockheed Martin F-35s landed at Nevatim air base on 14 September. The arrivals brought the total number of "Adir" jets operated by the nation's air force to seven....

...By the end of this year, a further two F-35Is will join the air force's "Golden Eagle" squadron. The service plans to conduct an inspection in December, ahead of declaring initial operational capability (IOC) with the stealthy type.

A US delegation led by F-35 Joint Programme Office head Vice Adm Mathias Winter recently visited Israel and met with squadron personnel. The officials were briefed about the efforts the service is making to achieve its IOC goal, and the Israeli-made systems which are being incorporated into the type. They also visited the Israel Aerospace Industries facility which manufactures wings for the F-35 programme...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... et-441185/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2017, 10:08
by spazsinbad
Complicated article best read at source. F-35s good to 50 but any more must be assessed using .... and political guidance.
Israeli lawmakers: F-35 get is fine, but must ‘meticulously assess’ follow-on buys
25 Sep 2017 Barbara Opall-Rome

"
TEL AVIV, Israel — Parliamentary findings released Monday on long-term planning within the Israeli military validated the nation’s need for 50 F-35 Adir fighter jets, yet urged a comprehensive review of alternatives — including drones and “other sources of precision fire” — before a government decision to purchase another 25 to 50 aircraft, as requested by the Israeli Air Force.

“The Adir is not just another platform, but brings new capabilities to the battlefield due to its stealth,” members of a parliamentary subcommittee found following a two-year review of the Israel Defense Forces‘ multiyear organization and spending plan.

In a section devoted to the Air Force, lawmakers noted that the F-35, “with all the existing limitations and against anti-aircraft missiles projected in the future, returns the Israel Air Force, through proper planning and with the recognition of its vulnerability points, to a capability for ‘stand-in’ operations.”

While lawmakers endorsed the government’s recent actions to acquire another 17 aircraft and thereby ensure two full stealth squadrons for the Air Force, they insisted follow-on purchases must be assessed in terms of how they contribute to national defense policy relative to alternatives....

...Findings on the F-35 were just a small part of a special report published Sept. 25 by the subcommittee, which falls under the purview of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee. The subcommittee is charged with oversight of defense policy and force structure...."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/global/midea ... w-on-buys/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2017, 01:40
by sunstersun
I always thought Israel would be the best PR for the F-35.

They will bloody em first, rack up insane KDA like they did with the F-15 and declare IOC as a foreign nation first.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2017, 07:27
by fang
The IDF PR published that two weeks ago one of the Israeli F-35i's been damaged by bird strike during landing.
The pilot is OK.
A team from LM will help to rebuilt the RAM coating.

F-35 Windscreen Birdstrike Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXsFmIqTHIE

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2017, 09:03
by Dragon029
http://www.kan.org.il/Item/?itemId=23623

A mediocre Google translated version:

First publication: "Adir" plane was grounded because of a bird hit

The Air Force fears that the F-35 evader, considered the most advanced in the world, has lost its capabilities and is waiting for Lockheed Martin's opinion

Amir Bar Shalom

October 16, 2017 19:00
An Israeli stealth aircraft of the F-35 (Adir), considered to be the most advanced in the world, was hit two weeks ago during a bird-training exercise - this was reported for the first time in the program "Seven Current" here 11. There were no casualties in the incident and the pilot managed to land the The plane is safe. However, the plane is grounded since the incident and it is unclear when it will resume activity - if at all.

The Air Force fears that despite the planned re-use of the evaporator, it is not clear whether it will retain its evasive ability. The IDF confirmed the details and said that at no stage was life threatening to the pilot and are now awaiting the opinion of Lockheed Martin, the manufacturer of the plane, regarding the extent of the damage caused to it.

Today, the Air Force has seven huge planes, each costing $ 110 million. In August, a deal was completed for the purchase of another 17 such aircraft for the Israeli Air Force, and in total, 50 such aircraft will be served in two pilots. The total amount of the deal to purchase the 50 aircraft is estimated at seven billion dollars.

The IDF Spokesperson's Office stated: "These allegations are incorrect. In preparation for a routine landing of the F-35, two injuries were found in the fuselage following a collision with the birds. The plane made a normal landing at the base and was sent to the usual maintenance treatment following such injuries. The plane will be used and will return for flight in the coming days. "

"In terms of damage to a bird, there is no difference between hitting 35 or any other aircraft - the risk is the same risk," said Neri Yarkoni, a reserve colonel in the reserves. "What you have to do is simply not meet them, you can keep them away from the takeoff and landings, and the paths of bird migration are pretty constant," he said


I'm assuming the "two injuries" is meant to translate into two impact marks.

Edit:

According to a guy on Reddit, there's been at least 2 bird strikes already / prior to this, with both instances having a bird bounce off the canopy, without causing damage (as the above PDF and video would have us expect).

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2017, 17:38
by Dragon029
And cue conspiracy theories because it's Israel:

https://southfront.org/israel-hiding-st ... e-reports/

ISRAEL IS HIDING THAT ITS STATE-OF-ART F-35 WARPLANE WAS HIT BY SYRIAN S-200 MISSILE – REPORTS

It looks that the Israeli “demonstration of power” during the recent visit of Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu has turned into a total failure.

On October 16, Shoigu arrived Israel for meetings with Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. The sides were reportedly set to discuss the situation in the region, including Syria, the fight against terrorism as well as military and technical cooperation.

At the same day, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) claimed that its warplanes targeted an anti-aircraft battery of the Syrian Air Defense Forces that had launched a missile at Israeli aircraft flying over Lebanon.

16 Oct
IDF ✔ @IDFSpokesperson
Earlier today,an anti-aircraft missile was launched from Syria towards IDF aircraft during a routine flight over Lebanon. No hits confirmed

IDF ✔@IDFSpokesperson
In response, IDF aircraft targeted the anti-aircraft battery in Syria.
19:45 - 16 Oct 2017
12 12 Replies 88 88 Retweets 149 149 likes


The IDF added that the Syrian missile didn’t hit any Israeli aircraft.

IDF ✔@IDFSpokesperson
Earlier today,an anti-aircraft missile was launched from Syria towards IDF aircraft during a routine flight over Lebanon. No hits confirmed
19:37 - 16 Oct 2017


“The army targeted the battery with four bombs and, according to the IDF, the battery was damaged to the extent it was no longer operational. The army said the battery targeted was the same that fired at Israeli jets last March, prompting Israel make use of its Arrow anti-missile system for the first time,” the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported on the issue.

The Syrian military confirmed the Israeli strikes and said that they caused “material damage.”

It’s interesting to note that, according to the Syrian Defense Ministry statement, Israeli warplanes violated Syria’s airspace on the border with Lebanon in Baalbek area. The incident took place at 8:51 am local time.

Could the Israeli Air Force intentionally provoke the reaction from the Syrian military in order to justify the strike on the Syrian air defense battery?

Furthermore, some pro-Israeli experts and media activists clearly linked the incident with the visit of the Russian defense minister to Tel Aviv saying that it was a nice demonstration of power to the Russian-Iranian-Syrian alliance.

However, somesing went wrong.

According to the available information, the Syrian Defense Forces used a S-200 missile against the Israeli warplane. This Soviet-made missile is the most advanced long range anti-aircraft system opearated by the Syrian military. Even in this case, it’s old-fashioned in terms of the modern warfare.

Despite this, the Syrian Defense Ministry said in its statement that government forces responded to the violation of the airspace and “directly hit one of the jets, forcing [Israeli aircraft] to retreat.” This statement contradicts to the Israeli claim that “no hit” was confirmed.

Few hours after the missile incident with Syria, the Israeli media reported that the Israeli Air Force’s F-35 stealth multirole fighter went unserviceable as a result of an alleged bird collision during a training flight.

The incident allegedly took place “two weeks ago” but was publicly reported only on October 16. However, Israeli sources were not able to show a photo of the F-35 warplane after the “bird collision”.

Furthermore, it is not clear if the F-35 can become operational again because its stealth coating was damaged. Thus, according to the Israeli version, the warplane reportedly became no longer operational after the bird collision despite the fact that the F-35 earlier passed the bird strike sertification with great results (official info here). The F-35 is the the world’s most expensive warplane. The price of developing the F-35 is now about $406.5 billion.

Israel is actively buying the world’s self-proclaimed most advanced fighter paying about $100 million for each plane.

So what did really hit the F-35?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2017, 18:04
by neurotech
Dragon029 wrote:And cue conspiracy theories because it's Israel:

Super Hornets have been damaged by flightline mishaps and bird strikes, resulting in the jet being no longer mission capable due to radar signature issues. In some cases the jets had to be returned to depot for somewhat lengthy and costly repairs. I can't imagine the F-35 being any different. If a bird hit certain parts of the aircraft, getting spare panels may be difficult.

Also, the Israeli F-35s have been seen flying with external stores and pylons, so they wouldn't be "Stealth" in that configuration.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2017, 20:49
by krorvik
From southfront's about page:

"CNN’s fake newscast from the First Gulf War"

"The BBC has also been caught staging fake news about Syria to justify military intervention"

"Everybody can become a volunteer in our project and share their own story and perspective with the world."

"common people with inquisitive minds are able to produce balanced content in a modern information-oriented society."

Mhm.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2017, 22:38
by vanshilar
Hmm. Both Israel and Syria have trustworthy news sources. The only logical explanation is that Syrian S-200 systems fire birds instead of missiles and one of them happen to hit an Israeli F-35 while landing. The bird's feathers got stuck to the RAM coating and now they're trying to figure out how to scrape it off without damaging the RAM.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 18 Oct 2017, 02:26
by blindpilot
Dragon029 wrote:And cue conspiracy theories because it's Israel:

https://southfront.org/israel-hiding-st ... e-reports/

...


SouthFront ? !!!! We're quoting SouthFront now? !!!

from their own web page- About:
" SouthFront aims to reveal the real events occurring in the world; to show you what is hidden behind the veil of disinformation and nuanced propaganda. Everybody can become a volunteer in our project and share their own story and perspective with the world... mainstream media that attempts to hide the real truth... They create a false image ...engineer the consent of people... by controlling the narrative of events. ...

Like in the ground-breaking movie, SouthFront offers you the choice of taking the “red pill”.


Oooooh .... kay! Step away from the keyboard ...

:o :o
MHO
BP

PS : Wait! wait I just saw a story in the Inquirer!! but it's hidden on the last page right after the three headed alien story...

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 18 Oct 2017, 03:17
by Dragon029
As I said; "cue conspiracy theories" - I quoted the article so that you all didn't have to give them click revenue and I only posted the article because it's exploded somewhat (someone even edited the Wikipedia page of the SA-5 to claim that it was "unilaterally confirmed" that it hit an F-35 :roll: ; I'm in the process of repairing that entry).

I will say though, I am a little confused now, because a Times of Israel article has just come out and it claims that the birdstrike (with 2 storks apparently) occurred Tuesday, rather than 2 weeks ago. I'm assuming that's misreporting on the original kan.org.il article.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 18 Oct 2017, 04:16
by tincansailor
Hard to imagine the damage from a SAM hit could be passed off as a bird strike. Why would an F-35I operating over Lebanon be carrying external ordnance? If true it was an act of tactical arrogance on the part of Israel. It wouldn't be the first time overconfidence has led the Israel military to make a major blunder. If it was a bird strike this is the downside of a military policy of keeping everything secret. With no real information everything feeds the rumor mill. Ether way this isn't good publicity for the F-35.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 18 Oct 2017, 04:51
by blindpilot
Dragon029 wrote:As I said; "cue conspiracy theories" - I quoted the article so that you all didn't have to give them click revenue and I only posted the article because it's exploded somewhat (someone even edited the Wikipedia page of the SA-5 to claim that it was "unilaterally confirmed" that it hit an F-35 :roll: ; I'm in the process of repairing that entry).

I will say though, I am a little confused now, because a Times of Israel article has just come out and it claims that the birdstrike (with 2 storks apparently) occurred Tuesday, rather than 2 weeks ago. I'm assuming that's misreporting on the original kan.org.il article.


Good catch on the Wiki page Dragon. I see the "event" page has been deleted. Hope you get the entry dumped.
Unbelievable how super market tabloids have taken over as "sources." We may be in worse trouble than we've imagined. Journalism may be at the edge of death.

Thanks for the heads up. Apologies for the snark.

BP

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 18 Oct 2017, 07:15
by optimist
Who would believe that Israel sent even a manned jet, into Lebanese airspace on a recognisance mission?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 18 Oct 2017, 07:40
by krorvik
blindpilot wrote:SouthFront ? !!!! We're quoting SouthFront now? !!!


Considered to be little else than a russian propaganda-channel, aimed at defense-savvy readers.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 18 Oct 2017, 09:05
by tincansailor
optimist wrote:Who would believe that Israel sent even a manned jet, into Lebanese airspace on a recognisance mission?



Good point. Especially sending a stealth fighter with external bombs on it, so the enemy can track it? Sort of defeats the whole idea of using stealth aircraft in high threat environments? You don't put bombs, and fuel tanks under the wings till after you destroy the IADS, not before. If it's true, the nicest thing you can call it is poor tactics. If your not being kind you can call it stupid.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 13:51
by fang
Today (Dec 6th, 2017) Israeli Air Force F-35i Adir declared operational.
Meaning all the 9 Adirs of 140FS can be part of the IAF operational activity anywhere anytime.
Israel is the second country after US to declare the F-35 operational, next year Israel will get another 6 A/C.
http://www.iaf.org.il/4467-49791-en/IAF.aspx

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 14:00
by hythelday
fang wrote:Today (Dec 6th, 2017) Israeli Air Force F-35i Adir declared operational.
Meaning all the 9 Adirs of 140FS can be part of the IAF operational activity anywhere anytime.
Israel is the second country after US to declare the F-35 operational, next year Israel will get another 6 A/C.
http://www.iaf.org.il/4467-49791-en/IAF.aspx


In case anyone missex it, two things happened during past 7 days:

1) Houthis launched Iranian supplied land based cruise missile at UAE
2) Israel bombed Iranian/Hezbollah targets in the vicinity of Damascus on 1st, 3rd and 4th of December.

Which probably means next time you hear something "unexpectedly" exploding in Syria there will be F-35s involved, either directly or as eyes in the sky.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 17:41
by spazsinbad
Israel declares F-35s ready for operations
06 Dec 2017 Barbara Opall-Rome

"...In a recent interview, retired Maj. Gen. Ido Nehushtan, the former Israeli Air Force commander who signed off on the decision to procure the F-35, told this reporter that the fifth-generation fighter offers “unique strategic advantage here in this neighborhood, both in terms of deterrence and also operational capabilities.”

According to Nehushtan, the service is working methodically and capably to integrate “unique Israeli capabilities” into the new F-35 force and to integrate the new fighters into a network that encompasses the rest of Israel’s combat air power.

“We certainly will see the benefits of having the unique virtues of these F-35 capabilities in the Middle East,” he said. “This know-how is developing, and I’m sure the IAF will know how best to utilize the F-35 and integrate it into the greater IAF and to apply these holistic capabilities to the challenges Israel faces.”

When asked whether the F-35 would play a lead role in a possible strike on Iran, the former Air Force commander replied: “If or when the state of Israel determines the need to exercise its sovereign right to self-defense, the F-35 absolutely will be a key player.”

He noted, however, that given Iran’s apparent compliance with the 2015 nuclear deal between world powers and Tehran, he doesn’t foresee near-term use of military force. “The agreement actually put Iran at some distance away [from a nuclear bomb] in the short term. But in the long term, it certainly has holes. Nevertheless, we’re now living in an international context of the agreement. So I don’t see, in that context, any attack coming soon.”

Israel has contracted for 50 F-35s, and long-term plans envision another 25 aircraft later in the coming decade."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/12 ... perations/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 00:44
by spazsinbad
Israel declares its F-35I fleet combat-ready
07 Dec 2017 Arie Egozi

"The Israeli air force on 6 December declared its Lockheed Martin F-35I "Adir" combat aircraft as having achieved initial operational capability. Air force commander Maj Gen Amikam Norkin confirmed the milestone involving the stealthy type, nine of which are assigned to its 140th "Golden Eagle" squadron at Nevatim air base. The declaration followed an inspection performed on five of the unit's jets, after which the service says "the aircraft was found fit for operational activity"....

...[Lt Col Yotam] notes: "We still have tests, development of combat doctrines and extensive learning before us."...

...Israel has asked the USA to allow it to integrate further Israeli-developed weapons and electronic warfare systems on its Adir fleet. The nation is already working to add Rafael's Python 5 and Derby air-to-air missiles to the aircraft, along with the company's Litening 5 targeting pod. Israeli sources say the new request is being evaluated "by the highest echelons", and would require access to the "heart" of the stealth fighter's software.

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... dy-443979/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 05:22
by steve2267
What does Litening 5 do that Lightning EOTS does not do?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 08:19
by SpudmanWP
Pay money to an Israeli company.

More than likely what we will see is an Advanced EOTS based on the Lightning5.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 09:42
by hornetfinn
SpudmanWP wrote:Pay money to an Israeli company.

More than likely what we will see is an Advanced EOTS based on the Lightning5.


Very true. It seems like Litening 5 is very much like what Advanced EOTS is going to be. It has these over current EOTS:

- SWIR
- Color CCD-TV (visible light camera for daylight use)
- It might also have somewhat larger sensor for improved range (not certain, but possible)

First two would improve performance against ground targets, especially for recognition and identification. SWIR and color CCD-TV have higher resolution and contrast than MWIR camera and have some other advantages like being able to see through glass (might be useful in urban environment). I'd say that if all of these can be fuzed using sensor fusion techniques, the end result would be very good especially for target recogniton and identification. For detecting regular military targets the improvement would not be that big though since MWIR is generally the best optical system for that. But naturally recognition and identification are extremely important and improving performance there will be big thing.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 17:40
by neptune
SpudmanWP wrote:Pay money to an Israeli company.

More than likely what we will see is an Advanced EOTS based on the Lightning5.


....question "NOT" about Advanced EOTS!; earlier in the JSF program (3-5 yrs.) an improvement was made in the EOTS and was cutin to the production line per my memory. I can't "search" this event and less memory about the "improvement", any link to this earlier event would be appreciated.

Now back to the program, Advanced EOTS Block 4.x!

Thanks,
Neptune

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2017, 18:10
by SpudmanWP
Without an idea of what item was changed... No clue.

Here is a doc from 2015 that shows a lot it internal views of the EOTS and later in the doc also goes into some updates that have been done to EOTS.

F-35_Lightning_II_EOTS.pdf
(1.91 MiB) Downloaded 1628 times

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2017, 16:35
by nutshell
SpudmanWP wrote:Pay money to an Israeli company.

More than likely what we will see is an Advanced EOTS based on the Lightning5.


That's a reason and it's understandable.

Also, 100% proprietary coding.

Honestly speaking, the Israeli were smart about that.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 22:37
by spazsinbad
An 'ordinary' article about personnel training for the F-35i, did not know that English is a requirement - but makes sense.
Fifth Generation Instruction: “Adir” (F-35I) technician training and instruction in the IAF are on the cutting edge of today’s technology
19 Dec 2017 Carmel Stern & Nadav Shaham

"In the past few months, “Adir” (F-35I) pilots have begun performing sorties in the advanced simulator established in Nevatim AFB. An instruction center for the technicians responsible for maintaining the aircraft now operates under the same roof as well. “This instruction center is the first of its kind in the technical division. It allows us to do things we haven’t done before in training. We teach 25 different professions that have to do with the ‘Adir’ aircraft division here”, shared Maj. Tsahi Gino, Commander of the “Adir” Technician Instruction Center.

Every “Adir” (F-35I) technician is chosen for the role ahead of time, for prior knowledge of the English language, among other things. The qualification process includes a ten week-long course in the instruction center. “The fact that we operate from an operational base contributes to the quality of our instruction. We visit the squadron every day; feel the aircraft and the connection with the squadron”, added Maj. Gino....

...In addition, we have already performed a pilot of a basic training program for officers from HQ, with the goal of exposing them to the ‘Adir’”, explained Master Sergeant Haim Sabah from the Material Directorate.

End-to-End Training
The center holds a number of courses simultaneously. “The center provides end-to-end instruction. The technicians arrive when they draft and we escort them throughout their service. After completing a basic training period, they can sign off on an aircraft in their first week in the squadron”, emphasized Maj. Gino. “Thanks to advanced simulation technology we can train the technicians with minimum interaction with the aircraft”."

Source: http://www.iaf.org.il/pZnTQ/4467-49819-en/IAF.aspx

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 18:21
by mixelflick
The fact Israel wants more F-35's is really all you need to know.

I do question their interest in B's as it seems for 6 decades they've lived without a VSTOL fighter. I suppose they have their reasons, but I was hoping to see that $ go to an F-15 2040C type buy.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2017, 18:51
by SpudmanWP
They are probability shopping for a mini-carrier :)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 10:47
by sunstersun

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2018, 11:07
by Corsair1963
sunstersun wrote:https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israeli-air-force-leaning-toward-f-15-over-f-35-for-next-acquisition-1.5769565


Israel isn't going to spend more money on new less capable F-15's than buying F-35's....


Yet, we could see them acquire more secondhand F-15C/D's and upgrade them to Israeli Standards. Which, they recently did with some ex-USAF F-15D's.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 04:29
by popcorn
Surely they are aware of how the F-35 compares in beast mode? So a new F-15i is cheaper than a F-35?


https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/isr ... -1.5769565

Israeli Air Force Leaning Toward Upgraded F-15 Over F-35 for Next Fighter Jet Acquisition

The Israel Air Force is to decide in a few months between purchasing a third squadron of F-35 fighter jets or the F-15I, which, while less advanced, has other advantages.

The acquisition requires the approval of the General Staff and a ministerial committee, but the recommendation of the air force generally carries the day.

IAF Commander Maj. Gen. Amikam Norkin, who reportedly is leaning toward the F-15, is to submit a recommendation in May...

The F-15, though older, has two advantages over the F-35: a longer flight range and the ability to carry larger bombs.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 04:42
by spazsinbad
Well there is this bit in the above artickle:
"...The F-15I is also cheaper to operate than the F-35. But the plane is currently being upgraded by the manufacturer, Boeing, and its purchase price is expected to rise in any future deal. Thus it [improved F-15] could end up costing the same as the F-35 does next time around...."

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 05:02
by neptune
popcorn wrote: The F-15, though older, has two advantages over the F-35: a longer flight range and the ability to carry larger bombs.


....if they consider the "Lite" as an on-scene C-C/ tactical bomber/ CAP, then perhaps the Eagle is the area strategic bomber??
:?:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 05:10
by SpudmanWP
How do they figure it's less expensive to operate?

Image

The F-35A is $29k

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 07:47
by Corsair1963
popcorn wrote: The F-15, though older, has two advantages over the F-35: a longer flight range and the ability to carry larger bombs.




The F-15 does not have longer range or a heavier bomb load than the F-35 in the "Real World". That is just plain fact and is supported by the numbers and first hand accounts from pilots.

:doh:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 08:49
by neptune
SpudmanWP wrote:How do they figure it's less expensive to operate?..The F-35A is $29k


....they are $720M (9X$80M-ish) ahead in that the F-15Ds are "free"..

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17 ... d-treasure

"The Israel Air Force is working hard to regenerate and drastically upgrade nine ex-U.S. Air National Guard F-15Ds that previously served with the 173rd Fight Wing in Klamath Falls, Oregon."..."Today, Israel's uniquely configured F-15Ds are among the IAF's most flexible and capable multi-role fighters. "

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/05 ... aled-f-15/

"Meet the Israel Air Force unit that frankensteined a totaled F-15B"..."Orgad estimates the entire project cost less than $1 million, all inclusive of labor and spare parts. "Today, to buy an aircraft like this would cost more than $40 million," he noted. "

...thrifty!
:)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 11:25
by hythelday
Corsair1963 wrote:
popcorn wrote: The F-15, though older, has two advantages over the F-35: a longer flight range and the ability to carry larger bombs.




The F-15 does not have longer range or a heavier bomb load than the F-35 in the "Real World". That is just plain fact and is supported by the numbers and first hand accounts from pilots.

:doh:


F-35 did "out-fly" F-15Cs, but F-15Es with CFTs and 3 tanks have quite a bit more fuel e.g. during Operation Wooden Leg Ra'ams flew ~2,200 nm with two refuels, including low level flight (with external ordance, obviously).

I do not think this juxtaposition should be understood as "Israel is buying F-15 instead of F-35s, forever". IAF has option for both planes - perhaps IAF chiefs feel confident that 50 F-35 will get the job done, for now, while they need to revitilize/expand F-15 fleet.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 12:27
by element1loop
The difference in cost per hour ($11,000 per hr) means that $720 million not spent, could then provide for an attractive 65,450 hours of flight time (hey, these are jews were talking about ... ya gotta haggle! ...).

Plus they hedge, with more than one type ... just in case of Murphy, plus they have a protracted transition phase, like any other force. F-35 can dominate air, and kick door down for eagles.

Not bad at all.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 17:25
by stevedapirate
I imagine an IAF order for a squadron of F-15s rather than F-35s has more to do with delivery date than platform capability. The F-15 production line is about to shut down for lack of orders, so any that are received will go into production almost immediately.

If the IAF put an order in for another squadron of F-35s tomorrow, they'd still be at the end of a very long line. If they are feeling the pressure from events in Syria or Iran today they may not be willing to wait.

From the Haaretz article:
"The argument within the air force apparently isn’t over whether a third F-35 squadron is needed, but over how soon it is needed.

Proponents of the F-15 prefer to postpone buying the third F-35 squadron until near the end of the next decade."

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 17:41
by SpudmanWP
It takes just as long to get an F-15 as an F-35, if not longer.

I think this is tied to "If we can get them for free" rather than pay full price, just like the last surplus F-15Ds.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 18:33
by stevedapirate
SpudmanWP wrote:It takes just as long to get an F-15 as an F-35, if not longer.


How do you figure?

New orders for F-35s probably won't even go into production for a decade at this point unless the USAF decides to give some of their slots away. Particularly since the IAF already possesses some birds for training and familiarization.

New F-15's are going to be built slower, but I'd assume work would start on them soon to keep the production line operating without gaps.

SpudmanWP wrote:I think this is tied to "If we can get them for free" rather than pay full price, just like the last surplus F-15Ds.


This is a distinct possibility.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 20:07
by SpudmanWP
If they order "new" F-35s today, then delivery will be in 3 years (1 year of Long Lead items and 2 for production).

There are plenty of slots available.

Image

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2018, 03:43
by marauder2048
stevedapirate wrote:I The F-15 production line is about to shut down for lack of orders, so any that are received will go into production almost immediately.


Has Boeing really made that much of a dent in the combined Saudi and Qatari order?
The new-build Saudi aircraft just started delivering at the end of 2016 and while
I know deliveries can lag production Boeing delivered 16 total F-15s in 2017.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2018, 09:05
by neptune
F-15D 92 built in 1979–85

US ANG squadrons are:
ACC 114th FS ANG, Or F-15C/D
ACC 122d FS ANG, La F-15C/D
ACC 123d FS ANG, Or F-15C/D
ACC 131st FS ANG, Ma F-15C/D
ACC 159th FS ANG, Fl F-15C/D
ACC 194th FS ANG, Ca F-15C/D



- "Known as the Baz 2000 program, this reworking of the best of the IAF’s Baz fleet would give F-15A/B/C/D aircraft a common cockpit configuration,"
- "...Many of the upgrades were ported over from the F-15I, "
- "Because the Baz still has similar range as its more contemporary successors, the F-15I ..., it can work as a forward deployed networking and command and control node, absorbing the battle picture via data-link from fighters within its line of sight and then beaming this information up to a satellite, which then beams it back down to Israeli commanders hundreds, or even thousands of miles away. This can also go in the opposite direction, with new orders, alerts of pop-up air defenses, and other updates being sent from behind friendly lines or from orbiting strategic intelligence aircraft to the F-15D Baz. From here, the Baz can disperse this information to the rest of the non-satellite communications equipped strike package."
- "This high bandwidth satellite communications modification can be seen on F-15Ds packing a large bulbous R2-D2 like satellite communications dome just behind the jet's environmental cooling system vent, located on the jet’s forward spine..."
Isarael F-15D Baz 2018.jpg


....any one care to bet it has integrated MADL for data/ comm with the F-35I Adir!
:wink: :)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2018, 18:54
by zerion
No, Israel's Interest In Buying New F-15s Isn't A Referendum On The F-35

The F-15 provides unique capabilities to the IAF, and considering production could end in the coming decade, buying more F-15s now may be a necessity.

BY TYLER ROGOWAYJANUARY 31, 2018

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18 ... n-the-f-35

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2018, 08:20
by citanon
Israeli F35s about to see action for reals?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43014081

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2018, 08:32
by tsl256
Looks like Israel needs to start putting their F-35s to good use, to avoid situations like this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.haaret ... -1.5806508

This would have ended differently, had Israel used F-35s. Thank goodness the pilots where able to eject and survive.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2018, 21:54
by sunstersun
tsl256 wrote:Looks like Israel needs to start putting their F-35s to good use, to avoid situations like this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.haaret ... -1.5806508

This would have ended differently, had Israel used F-35s. Thank goodness the pilots where able to eject and survive.


Pilot is in critical condition. I hope he survives.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2018, 16:09
by maus92
tsl256 wrote:Looks like Israel needs to start putting their F-35s to good use, to avoid situations like this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.haaret ... -1.5806508

This would have ended differently, had Israel used F-35s. Thank goodness the pilots where able to eject and survive.


Indicates that the Israelis were either surprised, or the F-35I is not actually operational / cannot deploy appropriate weps for the mission.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2018, 17:05
by botsing
maus92 wrote:Indicates that the Israelis were either surprised, or the F-35I is not actually operational / cannot deploy appropriate weps for the mission.

Or it indicates that you are pretty bad with the cherry-picking and confirmation bias. ;)

You do not know what the F-35's were doing at that moment, they could be doing anything between staying in their shelters to C4ISR. So how can you know if these "indications" of yours, that so lovingly suits your mindset, are actually viable?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2018, 17:29
by ricnunes
botsing wrote:
maus92 wrote:Indicates that the Israelis were either surprised, or the F-35I is not actually operational / cannot deploy appropriate weps for the mission.

Or it indicates that you are pretty bad with the cherry-picking and confirmation bias. ;)

You do not know what the F-35's were doing at that moment, they could be doing anything between staying in their shelters to C4ISR. So how can you know if these "indications" of yours, that so lovingly suits your mindset, are actually viable?


DITTO!

I fell like arguing with maus92 is like playing "whack-a-mole". We never know when he pops up but when he does his actions (or in this case his arguments/ramblings) are always the same :roll:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2018, 17:46
by quicksilver
maus92 wrote:
tsl256 wrote:Looks like Israel needs to start putting their F-35s to good use, to avoid situations like this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.haaret ... -1.5806508

This would have ended differently, had Israel used F-35s. Thank goodness the pilots where able to eject and survive.


Indicates that the Israelis were either surprised, or the F-35I is not actually operational / cannot deploy appropriate weps for the mission.


Whether of not they were surprised, of course, is a matter of conjecture. But living in a part of the world where the fight is "just down the block" the IAF are anything but complacent about the threat. The broader implications of the shoot-down are for "all non-5th Gen aircraft", which includes super duper F-15s and F-18s and the potential sales of such things anywhere in the world.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2018, 20:10
by tsl256
quicksilver wrote:
maus92 wrote:
tsl256 wrote:Looks like Israel needs to start putting their F-35s to good use, to avoid situations like this.

<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/red-alert-sirens-sound-heavy-aerial-activity-in-northern-israel-1.5806508</span>

This would have ended differently, had Israel used F-35s. Thank goodness the pilots where able to eject and survive.


Indicates that the Israelis were either surprised, or the F-35I is not actually operational / cannot deploy appropriate weps for the mission.


Whether of not they were surprised, of course, is a matter of conjecture. But living in a part of the world where the fight is "just down the block" the IAF are anything but complacent about the threat. The broader implications of the shoot-down are for "all non-5th Gen aircraft", which includes super duper F-15s and F-18s and the potential sales of such things anywhere in the world.


This latest shoot down may tip the scales in favor of buying more F-35s, rather than heavily upgraded F-15s for the IAF.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2018, 20:39
by 131stfwfan
marauder2048 wrote:
stevedapirate wrote:I The F-15 production line is about to shut down for lack of orders, so any that are received will go into production almost immediately.


Has Boeing really made that much of a dent in the combined Saudi and Qatari order?
The new-build Saudi aircraft just started delivering at the end of 2016 and while
I know deliveries can lag production Boeing delivered 16 total F-15s in 2017.


Yes, they have. The F-15SA went into production a year before the contract was signed with the first examples rolling off the line in Q2 2012. They have about 20 F-15SA's left to build, plus 36 more for Qatar which will extend the line until Q3 2022. 2017's production rate was the highest since 1999 for the program.

Delivery wise, they still have 55+ left to ferry over to Saudi, so any Isreali order would be in tandem with the others at this point. There are also discussions for additional F-15SA aircraft, but Airbus has yet to solidify their end at that for more Typhoon's. I would think a 25 aircraft order from the IAF would be the final examples. Still 50+ years of continuous production (- FY 2001) is nothing to sneeze at.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2018, 04:10
by Corsair1963
tsl256 wrote:
This latest shoot down may tip the scales in favor of buying more F-35s, rather than heavily upgraded F-15s for the IAF.


Honestly, I've seen nothing that makes me believe that Israel is in fact interested in more New F-15's. :doh:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2018, 10:04
by marauder2048
131stfwfan wrote:Yes, they have. The F-15SA went into production a year before the contract was signed with the first examples rolling off the line in Q2 2012. They have about 20 F-15SA's left to build, plus 36 more for Qatar which will extend the line until Q3 2022. 2017's production rate was the highest since 1999 for the program.


I'm extremely grateful for the info.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2018, 03:27
by spazsinbad
So many questions pondered by the reporter however to my mind the credible answer is in the last paragraphs below.
Syrian downing of F-16I begs question: Why didn’t Israel deploy F-35s?
13 Feb 2018 Barbara Opall-Rome

"TEL AVIV, Israel — As the Israeli Air Force continues to investigate the Feb. 10 loss of an F-16I to Syrian anti-aircraft fire, experts here are privately questioning why, given the operational circumstances that denied Israel the element of strategic surprise, it did not opt to deploy its newest front-line fighter: the stealthy F-35I.

In early December, the Air Force declared initial operational capability of the nine F-35s now in its possession. And from the aerial activity reported by residents near its home base at Nevatim, southern Israel, the aircraft are accruing significant flight time....

...The official answer to all these questions, according to Israel Defense Forces spokesman Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus, is: “No comment.”...

...Retired Israeli Air Force Brig. Gen. Abraham Assael, IAF Reserve Brig. Gen. Abraham Assael, CEO of the Fisher Institute for Air and Space Strategic Studies, was the only officer who agreed to be identified by name. According to the former fighter pilot, the Air Force had no reason to risk “strategic assets” against what was termed a “strategically insignificant” target. “In the past, everything went very well, so why jeopardize something so valuable and precious in an operation that used to entail no significant obstacles?” Assael said.

He cited the small number of F-35s in Israel’s possession and the relatively meager operational experience accrued on the aircraft as reasons for not including them in the Feb. 10 strike operations. “If they thought that the targets were so strategically important, I’m sure they’d consider using them. But they weren’t. So why risk use of the F-35s at such an early point in their operational maturity?” “Glitches and mishaps happen,” he added. “So now they’re investigating, and it could be one of the lessons will be that in this new strategic environment, we’ll see the F-35 called into action.”"

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/mide ... loy-f-35s/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2018, 11:40
by citanon
Any word on whether F35 was used in the second round of strikes?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2018, 12:09
by spazsinbad
Always pays to read the entire article at source (for example I'm not allowed to post an entire article [unless very short]).
"...Nor were they [F-35s] tasked to lead the follow-on wave of strikes on 12 separate Syrian and Iranian assets in the punitive operation launched later that day in response to the F-16I downing...."

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2018, 13:16
by citanon
Ahh, missed that part. Thanks!

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2018, 13:56
by spazsinbad
:devil: No wonder. :doh: I had trouble finding the text amongst all those stooped crappy ads mangling the text. :drool: :mrgreen:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2018, 14:17
by nathan77
From what I've read elsewhere, the existing standing Israeli squadrons have been performing these strikes for quite some time now - and with good success. These are squadrons that have been stood up and training for these missions for years.

This time the Syrian's got lucky.

Nothing to do with the F-35 - they barely have a handful yet. They don't yet have the training and operational experience of the existing squadrons.

It's not like if you claim that if the Israeli's had acquired another aircraft (for example, Maus' beloved Super-Hornet) that it wouldn't have happened.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2018, 21:49
by spazsinbad
How does one escape TWENTY missiles in a fourth gen fighter?
ANALYSIS: How F-16I loss will reshape Israel's offensive strategy
14 Feb 2018 Arie Egozi

"...An F-16I "Sufa" fighter arrived at the border area from a base in northern Israel a few minutes later, and was met with heavy fire from Syrian surface-to-air missile batteries: mainly Russian-made SA-5 systems.

While an investigation is ongoing, Israeli sources indicate that at least 20 missiles were launched towards the fighter, which was damaged after one exploded close to it. Both crew members ejected before the aircraft crashed. One of them was severely wounded and the other escaped with only minor injuries....

...While the Syrian army has been badly damaged during the ongoing civil war, the nation's surface-to-air missile capability has remained almost intact, with equipment including SA-5 and SA-17 batteries supplied by Russia. Its military appears to be prepared to mirror Iranian doctrine by launching large salvoes of weapons against airborne threats: a practice which could encourage Israel to employ surface-to-surface missiles where possible – protecting its air force assets from attacking such targets up to a distance of 400km (216nm). Defence minister Avigdor Lieberman earlier this year expressed his full support for the development of such a capability...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... en-445921/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2018, 23:54
by count_to_10
spazsinbad wrote:How does one escape TWENTY missiles in a fourth gen fighter?
ANALYSIS: How F-16I loss will reshape Israel's offensive strategy
14 Feb 2018 Arie Egozi

"...An F-16I "Sufa" fighter arrived at the border area from a base in northern Israel a few minutes later, and was met with heavy fire from Syrian surface-to-air missile batteries: mainly Russian-made SA-5 systems.

While an investigation is ongoing, Israeli sources indicate that at least 20 missiles were launched towards the fighter, which was damaged after one exploded close to it. Both crew members ejected before the aircraft crashed. One of them was severely wounded and the other escaped with only minor injuries....

...While the Syrian army has been badly damaged during the ongoing civil war, the nation's surface-to-air missile capability has remained almost intact, with equipment including SA-5 and SA-17 batteries supplied by Russia. Its military appears to be prepared to mirror Iranian doctrine by launching large salvoes of weapons against airborne threats: a practice which could encourage Israel to employ surface-to-surface missiles where possible – protecting its air force assets from attacking such targets up to a distance of 400km (216nm). Defence minister Avigdor Lieberman earlier this year expressed his full support for the development of such a capability...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... en-445921/

20?!
How much do those missiles cost? That’s got to be a fair fraction of the price of the aircraft downed.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 00:19
by spazsinbad
Yeah BUT - the publicity/propaganda is PRICELESS!

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 04:30
by tsl256
The initial assessment states that the F-16 was shot down because it was flying too high.

https://www.haaretz.com/whdcMobileSite/ ... -1.5808981

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 09:48
by element1loop
Given the battle was fairly close to Israel I'm guessing they had a large excess of fuel to burn to make the missiles work hard (loose energy and extend time and distance) to get close, and be almost spent on arrival. Altitude would help a lot. Turning ... not so much.

Even then you'd need excellent SA to know where the SAMS are, and where to go.

Netted sensors in a 4th gen and support aircraft might be able to provide the SAM SA advantage to the pilots, that gives EA a chance to work.

And did they use AAMs to home on emitter, and force them to pull the plug on SARH missiles?

Edit: IDF are pretty good at getting cheap missiles to hit rockets.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 11:46
by marsavian
In the past much was made of how the F-35 was not quite the air superiority weapon F-22 is however modern warfare appears to be like this incident, states using proxy combatants aka terrorists against other states where the prime requirement is to take out these hostile combatants and their machinery under ground fire. For this the stealthy survivable strike fighter is the best answer and F-35 is now available in a little quantity in Israel and other world hotspots for US and all its allies. Its time has come and is now, the US military got this F-22/F-35 Hi-Lo formula right again after the F-15/F-16 one even if the F-22 ratio of this mix is a bit light due to bad political strategical thinking. Nevermind, the PCA will correct that in the future.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 21:25
by castlebravo
This conflict in Syria has me thinking about what the future looks like. We know Russia has S400 batteries in country. While we are not attacking them directly, and they are not attacking us directly, what if some components of that IADS start being used to support missile systems operated by the enemy we are fighting? Consider a scenario where the enemy we are actively fighting has a bunch of TELARs distributed across the battlefield while all the search radars and C4 support are off-limits due to political realities. Such a situation could be even more challenging than a direct shooting war against the near peer adversary providing support. Legacy platforms may soon be obsolete for everything but the lowest of low intensity conflicts.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Feb 2018, 05:51
by element1loop
castlebravo wrote:This conflict in Syria has me thinking about what the future looks like. We know Russia has S400 batteries in country. While we are not attacking them directly, and they are not attacking us directly, what if some components of that IADS start being used to support missile systems operated by the enemy we are fighting? Consider a scenario where the enemy we are actively fighting has a bunch of TELARs distributed across the battlefield while all the search radars and C4 support are off-limits due to political realities. Such a situation could be even more challenging than a direct shooting war against the near peer adversary providing support. Legacy platforms may soon be obsolete for everything but the lowest of low intensity conflicts.


The 'international incident' dimension and responsibility applies to the guy with S400 sensor net supporting systems firing at you, too.

If one guy shoots and another guy targets, both are combatants operating weapon systems within a kill chain. Both are targets.

The S400 owners better be using it for own force protection only.

But even if they did, or were, it still comes down to the lock sensor, launcher complex and the missiles supported by it, datalinks, and terminal mechanisms. The solutions to these remain the same as before.

Are the SAMs more ready? Probably.

But only until comms support is disrupted (eliminate comms networks) or S400 sensor has a bad-hair day from a salvo of anon (little-green-men style) artillery rockets (I'm sure a rapid solution is in place already).

They know not to test the boundries. Would they want to have to explain how their expensive impenetrable S400 got smoked?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Feb 2018, 16:05
by castlebravo
element1loop wrote:
castlebravo wrote:This conflict in Syria has me thinking about what the future looks like. We know Russia has S400 batteries in country. While we are not attacking them directly, and they are not attacking us directly, what if some components of that IADS start being used to support missile systems operated by the enemy we are fighting? Consider a scenario where the enemy we are actively fighting has a bunch of TELARs distributed across the battlefield while all the search radars and C4 support are off-limits due to political realities. Such a situation could be even more challenging than a direct shooting war against the near peer adversary providing support. Legacy platforms may soon be obsolete for everything but the lowest of low intensity conflicts.


The 'international incident' dimension and responsibility applies to the guy with S400 sensor net supporting systems firing at you, too.

If one guy shoots and another guy targets, both are combatants operating weapon systems within a kill chain. Both are targets.

The S400 owners better be using it for own force protection only.

But even if they did, or were, it still comes down to the lock sensor, launcher complex and the missiles supported by it, datalinks, and terminal mechanisms. The solutions to these remain the same as before.

Are the SAMs more ready? Probably.

But only until comms support is disrupted (eliminate comms networks) or S400 sensor has a bad-hair day from a salvo of anon (little-green-men style) artillery rockets (I'm sure a rapid solution is in place already).

They know not to test the boundries. Would they want to have to explain how their expensive impenetrable S400 got smoked?


I'm not talking about Russian fire control radars illuminating targets for Syrians missiles, I'm talking about Syrian systems being alerted when a target enters their effective range. This doesn't even have to involve the normal data link methods used for a full-on IADS, it could be a guy with a radio or even a cell phone making the call. It could also be a Russian fighter or AEW&C calling out contacts in the clear on their version of a guard channel. If a Russian system is tracking our aircraft, it is a safe bet that they sharing that information with their allies.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2018, 11:05
by scx
The Israeli news site "Walla" post yesterday that the Adir - F-35I made its first operational mission recently. what exactly was the mission we don't know, it is classified.

Here's the link, it's in Hebrew, but you can auto translate.
https://news.walla.co.il/item/3141868

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2018, 14:36
by white_lightning35
Hey if this is posted enough, eventually the media will be right. Flawless plan

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 23:15
by loke
Israel’s Lockheed Martin F-35I "Adir" is reported to have made its combat debut during strikes conducted against Syrian air defence systems last month. The action was mounted following a border clash that culminated in an Israeli air force Lockheed F-16 being shot down by a surface-to-air missile.

The F-35I's suggested offensive debut has not been confirmed officially, with Israeli air force commander Maj Gen Amikam Norkin having classified all operations with the type.

Air force officials have described the stealth fighter as a "super-intelligence collector" and a "game-changer", pointing to its ability to acquire and distribute data to other assets in the air and on the ground.


Full story: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ut-446817/

The capabilities of the F-35 are far above and beyond other fighters'....

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2018, 18:06
by zerion
REPORT: ISRAELI STEALTH FIGHTERS FLY OVER IRAN

1 minute read.
By YASSER OKBI/ MAARIV HASHAVUA,JPOST.COM STAFF

Two Israeli F-35 fighter jets entered Iranian airspace over the past month, Kuwaiti newspaper Al-Jarida reported on Thursday. The act is a signal of heightened regional tensions, especially in light of recent Israeli military attacks in Syria, including against Iranian bases in the country.

Sources quoted in Al-Jarida stated that two stealth fighters flew over Syrian and Iraqi airspace to reach Iran, and even targeted locations in the Iranian cities Bandar Abbas, Esfahan and Shiraz...

http://m.jpost.com/Middle-East/Report-I ... ran-547421


Skeptical I am.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2018, 19:32
by marsavian
Notice has been served ...

Sources quoted in Al-Jarida stated that two stealth fighters flew over Syrian and Iraqi airspace to reach Iran, and even targeted locations in the Iranian cities Bandar Abbas, Esfahan and Shiraz.

The report states that the two fighter jets, among the most advanced in the world, circled at high altitude above Persian Gulf sites suspected of being associated with the Iranian nuclear program.

It also states that the two jets went undetected by radar, including by the Russian radar system located in Syria. The source refused to confirm if the operation was undertaken in coordination with the US army, which has recently conducted joint exercises with the IDF.

The source added that the seven F-35 fighters in active service in the IAF have conducted a number of missions in Syria and on the Lebanese-Syrian border. He underlined that the fighter jets can travel from Israel to Iran twice without refueling.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2018, 19:47
by SpudmanWP
They should have checked a map before claiming Bandar Abbas as an un-refueled target

Image

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2018, 22:21
by magitsu
SpudmanWP wrote:They should have checked a map before claiming Bandar Abbas as an un-refueled target

They didn't. Your pic alludes that it can indeed travel to little beyond the Iran's border and back. Just not Bandar Abbas. But it was "can travel from Israel to Iran". Unless they meant twice back and forth, which would be clearly too much.

Ok, Bandar Abbas can be done, but requires refuel.

It makes very little sense overall. Just need to take a look at the countries whose airspaces it would need to violate. Why do it for this? Certainly you couldn't sneak in a tanker.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2018, 22:39
by marsavian
Long range strike missions, spoofing S-400s, this is kind of what the F-35 was built for, not pointless mock dogfights with legacy fighters as the ill informed general press obsess about ! 8)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2018, 03:11
by element1loop
SpudmanWP wrote:They should have checked a map before claiming Bandar Abbas as an un-refueled target.]


Depends on mission and profile. If it is intended as undetected high-altitude VLO recon, the pilots can fly for best range speed and best range altitude, both ways, for the mission, with 4 slammers each.

That 760 nm radius is an inefficient intercept dash speed radius, as far a I'm concerned, a lot less than acheivable radius if flying for best specific consumption, at all times, at all altitudes, in all prevailing conditions, each way. Which fortunately is ideal for lowest observability.

Time to accept that F-35A VLO recon can do that.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2018, 03:27
by quicksilver
“That 760 nm radius is an inefficient intercept dash speed radius...”

And you base this on what knowledge of the jet?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2018, 05:21
by element1loop
quicksilver wrote:“That 760 nm radius is an inefficient intercept dash speed radius...”

And you base this on what knowledge of the jet?


I could ask same re conditions, profile and conservative assumptions as to what constitutes that 760 nm air combat radius?

Somehow I doubt its' definition involves 'flying on the numbers' for best specific-consumption air-speed at best-range-altitude, to obtain maximum unrefuelled RECON range. Which is what the IDF did to get that far, and back, unrefuelled. Then leaking it for effect ... and for bragging rights.

On what knowledge other than that poster of air combat radius, do you dispute the IDFs admission of extraordinary achievable RECON range?

Ask them as they say they did it, no matter what an LM combat radius poster claims.

Absolutes like "760 nm" don't exist for range numbers, in practice, but they do exist for specific consumption numbers for given start weight, ISA, FL and cruise KTAS.

Those are the only numbers that matter in this, and that's what the mission planning software and the pilots were concerned with. They could not give a stuff what an LM graphic says the F-35A's range is. Nor would I.

IAF would have had several runs a this at 85%, 90℅, 95% range, returning unrefuelled, before committing to this radius for recon mission(s). They would have looked for the combination of ideal winds aloft, to get them there, and back, with the desired fuel margins for each part of each leg.

They will now know what conditions aloft they need to make a strike, with a cruise weapon, or a power-assisted glide-weapon.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2018, 08:24
by spazsinbad
However you are guessing - which is all anyone can do given none of us (including you) have access to the F-35A Flight Manual. IF you do have access then please post the PDF here. Thanks. How do you know the IAF does these "85%, 90℅, 95% range" runs? Winds aloft can be critical if strong, jetstreams are significant if blowing at altitude, many variables in this.

BTW the Israelis along with all F-35A operators know the performance figures - whether these have been finalized or provisional we also do not know. There are margins for error also which could be significant depending on route taken.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2018, 09:19
by element1loop
spazsinbad wrote:However you are guessing - which is all anyone can do given none of us (including you) have access to the F-35A Flight Manual. IF you do have access then please post the PDF here. Thanks. How do you know the IAF does these "85%, 90℅, 95% range" runs? Winds aloft can be critical if strong, jetstreams are significant if blowing at altitude, many variables in this.

BTW the Israelis along with all F-35A operators know the performance figures - whether these have been finalized or provisional we also do not know. There are margins for error also which could be significant depending on route taken.


I have no problem with what you say there, and am well aware of the range of variables, as are you, QS and Spud, I'm sure. However I'm not 'guessing', just pointing-out implications of the Israeli claim(s).

Plus pointing out the thorough inadequacy of buying into or insisting on adhering to a glib 760 nm range radius figure. Like all such official figs they are very conservstive rules-of-thumb, for certain A2A combat configs, assuming certain flight conditions (very much typical and non-optimised ones), and probably also includes a substancial allowance for an A2A exchange phase and fast egress, prior to return, otherwise it would be thoroughly meaningless and misleading as an A2A COMBAT radius. It's roughly valid, if you have an A2A fight, also.

So this Israeli recon range claim, should not be much of a surprise, to any one who's being realistic about the range implications.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2018, 09:37
by spazsinbad
I don't 'believe' the Israelis 'claimed' anything. 'Sources' to a newspaper did but given this: "...Israeli air force commander Maj Gen Amikam Norkin having classified all operations with the [F-35i] type...." I'm not considering it at all until official.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2018, 10:11
by element1loop
Sure, someone in Kuwait wanted to say look what we can do.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2018, 10:42
by spazsinbad
IF we are free to speculate we may ponder the use of CFT/EFT, developed with LM help (perhaps installed in Israel?). I recall there was a holdup at manufacture end for the last couple of F-35i, so perhaps the plumbing/attachment points for stealthy CFTs/EFTs were a bit problematic? However I'm just guessing because someone in Oz wants to do that for me.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2018, 11:28
by mk82
marsavian wrote:Long range strike missions, spoofing S-400s, this is kind of what the F-35 was built for, not pointless mock dogfights with legacy fighters as the ill informed general press obsess about ! 8)


Word!!!

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2018, 14:11
by Dragon029
So I noticed in the Jerusalem Post article that the terminology was "the fighter jets can travel from Israel to Iran twice without refueling". Note how it isn't "from Israel to Iran and back twice" - sure it's implied that they're talking about two return trips, but the oddity of that statement lead me to track down the original article, which is located here:

http://www.aljarida.com/articles/1522266292204212000/

In the article there's this line:
وذكر أن مقاتلات F35 السبع التي دخلت الخدمة في إسرائيل، والتي نفذ بعضها أخيراً ضربات جوية في سورية وعلى الحدود اللبنانية - السورية، تستطيع التحليق دون توقف للتزود بالوقود ما يعادل مرتين في كل اتجاه من إسرائيل إلى إيران.

I ran that through Google translate and noticed that it said this:
The seven F35 fighter jets that have entered service in Israel, some of which have recently carried out air strikes in Syria and on the Lebanese-Syrian border, can fly nonstop twice a day in each direction from Israel to Iran.

I've also put up a request for a human to perform a translation. That last part though is interesting:

"can fly nonstop twice a day in each direction from Israel to Iran" - assuming the translation is correct, that does kill off my idea that they meant twice the one-way distance, but it also opens up the interpretation that the source was talking about the sortie rate of the F-35; that they can fly two separate unrefuelled (in the air, but refuelled on the ground) sorties into Iran per day (which is well within possibility; it's 560nmi from Nevatim to Iran's border).

Don't suppose anyone here reads Arabic well?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2018, 14:14
by magitsu
Here’s Why The Claim That Two Israeli F-35 Stealth Jets Entered Iranian Airspace Does Not Make Any Sense
https://theaviationist.com/2018/03/29/h ... any-sense/

This one is good. First: the source is a known psyop delivery vector.
There are many weird things.

First of all the source. Al-Jarida is often used to deliver Israeli propaganda/PSYOPS messages, according to several sources. For instance, here’s how Haaretz commented a previous scoop of the Kuwaiti outlet (again, highlight mine):

“Al-Jarida, which in recent years had broken exclusive stories from Israel, quoted a source in Jerusalem as saying that “there is an American-Israeli agreement” that Soleimani is a “threat to the two countries’ interests in the region.” It is generally assumed in the Arab world that the paper is used as an Israeli platform for conveying messages to other countries in the Middle East.

The main argument, which I consider very rational, is that it would be very reckless to commit their most advanced reserve for such a low-value use like this. It would be plain stupid to send them sightseeing through Iraq or SA airspace. They would be handing valuable intel to their adversaries right out of the gate.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2018, 14:24
by Dragon029
Is it a low-value use though? The story is that Israel was using these F-35s for reconnaissance over Iranian areas suspected of being part of Iran's nuclear program (which is naturally of key interest to Israel). If Israel suspected Iran of nuclear wrongdoings, using a stealth jet would certainly improve their chances of getting imagery without having jets / drones shot down and without Iran being able to quickly hide certain activities / assets in response to an airspace incursion or known satellite pass. Whether or not it was reckless depends on whether or not Iran's air defences pose a serious threat to the F-35; maybe it particularly doesn't.

There's also the value proposition of these supposed activities (if real) and leak being a message to Iran and everyone else in the region; deterrence is pretty valuable.

Edit: To be clear, I do have my doubts about the story, particularly when there's been multiple other stories about Israeli F-35s being shot down or performing airstrikes, etc, but it's one of the more strategically / politically reasonable stories I've read so far in my opinion.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2018, 19:08
by magitsu
Seems like it paid off to believe the simplest explanation. Very likely didn't happen as per:

https://twitter.com/OpallRome/status/979422684068110336

"Highly dubious. Although IAF declared OIC for 9 F-35I Adirs last year (not 7 as reported), they are not yet mission-ready. Doubt they would risk even recce flights over areas reported. Nevertheless, great PR to fortify deterrence. Thanks al-Jarida! And Happy Passover."

Yes, there might be value in taking a look at Iran, but the usual wisdom of not playing all of your cards should apply in this case in the context of how immature F-35I still is. Why risk negative results related to F-35, when the locals haven't yet formed an opinion about it. The payoff in this case is likely not good enough. But it's a nice card to play psychologically.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2018, 19:56
by SpudmanWP
IOC but not "mission ready"...

:crazypilot: Dumbass Blonde :crazypilot:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2018, 20:16
by magitsu
SpudmanWP wrote:IOC but not "mission ready"...

:crazypilot: Dumbass Blonde :crazypilot:

Good point. :D

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2018, 02:56
by Corsair1963
magitsu wrote:Seems like it paid off to believe the simplest explanation. Very likely didn't happen as per:

https://twitter.com/OpallRome/status/979422684068110336

"Highly dubious. Although IAF declared OIC for 9 F-35I Adirs last year (not 7 as reported), they are not yet mission-ready. Doubt they would risk even recce flights over areas reported. Nevertheless, great PR to fortify deterrence. Thanks al-Jarida! And Happy Passover."

Yes, there might be value in taking a look at Iran, but the usual wisdom of not playing all of your cards should apply in this case in the context of how immature F-35I still is. Why risk negative results related to F-35, when the locals haven't yet formed an opinion about it. The payoff in this case is likely not good enough. But it's a nice card to play psychologically.


Don't expect to get much respect from many members here. By making such ridiculous comments........... :doh:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2018, 04:01
by element1loop
A reply to Iranian RQ-170-ski drone infiltration failure?

"Look what we can do", via a prior-used media outlet, to point-out the Iranian IADS doesn't work and even Tehran can be reached.

Haifa to Bandar Abbas = 1,158 nm (direct great-circle)
Haifa to Tehran = 827 nm (direct great-circle)

The real message being transmitted is that we can do a lot more than recon. (And the path to Tehran is much more direct, much less risky re winds, much more flexible to reach)

_____
Note: I'm using Haifa rather than Nevatim (Beer Shiva), because to go via Syria they must launch from Nevatim then presumably refuelled near to cruise altitude in northern Israel (back west from Golan) before setting off into Syria, so Haifa maybe provides a usefull 'start point', but according to the story it was all indirect, presumably down the eastern coast, and inland the Gulf.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2018, 04:03
by vanshilar
element1loop wrote:I could ask same re conditions, profile and conservative assumptions as to what constitutes that 760 nm air combat radius?

Somehow I doubt its' definition involves 'flying on the numbers' for best specific-consumption air-speed at best-range-altitude, to obtain maximum unrefuelled RECON range.


Thing is since LM was using this in a slide to talk up the F-35's range, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they used a relatively optimized air-to-air profile. They have every incentive to maximize the reported figure. Such profiles are usually optimum cruise to target, then about a minute of combat, then optimum cruise home.

It *is* true however that a pure recon mission profile would have a farther range than an air-to-air profile. This is because:
1. No weapons -- though the effect is minor because the weight of the missiles aren't that much compared to the airplane anyway, and they're internal so no drag to worry about.
2. No minute of combat -- usually this part is assumed to be in afterburner and the plane is making several hard turns.
3. If they're planning for a specific route, they can make use of any trade winds etc., whereas theoretical profiles assume no wind.
4. If they're going for a max range mission, they can play around with reducing the reserve fuel, though they'd better be careful.

The biggest one though, I think, is that the plane doesn't need to directly overfly the target. It could have been a significant distance away and still have gotten good intelligence data. So that extends its effective range, in terms of recon, by quite a bit.

Even so, with air-to-air missions at roughly 750 nm, the ~1100 nm distance to Bandar Abbas is still a bit of a stretch. So some skepticism is warranted.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2018, 04:28
by element1loop
vanshilar wrote:Thing is since LM was using this in a slide to talk up the F-35's range, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that they used a relatively optimized air-to-air profile. They have every incentive to maximize the reported figure. ...
... So some skepticism is warranted.


Conversely, if LM is pitching to an Allied military will they use pubic released figures to highlight its real combat capabilities. Skepticism is warranted there too because the public figures will be far from the full story.

Note that higher speed long-range cruise, via clean low-drag blended higher percent laminar-flow design, typically makes a vast change to Specific-Consumption, and thus greatly extends achievable range. You can't expect similar effect here on specific consumption as would be seen with any prior fighter type attempting similar recon role (except F-22 that is). Apples and oranges in that respect.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2018, 04:35
by SpudmanWP
It's not just LM, but several independent sectors of the DoD. The SAR is a case in point where they report on the range in exact miles and not a rounded number.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2018, 05:16
by element1loop
If we start seeing occassional embarrassing mystery weapon explosions in facilities deep inside Iran, after an escalation, that maybe the only clarification we get for the next decade or so.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2018, 05:41
by element1loop
SpudmanWP wrote:The SAR is a case in point where they report on the range in exact miles and not a rounded number.


Questions:

1. Is there a Public version, and a Classified/redacted version of SAR reports?

2. What was the official public range claim for the F-16A at IOC?

3. Was the SAR of the day a mirror image of this?

4. Does that original pubic figure during F-16A IOC, correspond with observed fuel flow rates reported since, and imply the same, or even a similar range?

5. Or was the actual range of the IOC F-16A significantly higher than the official figure, given via independent open sources of the day?

---

Skepticism is warranted. ;-)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2018, 11:52
by optimist
The 2018 SAR said the f-35a had a combat radius of 669nm or 1239km. The actual specs for the combat mission is available. It is aa A2G mission with additional A2A and burner with reserve fuel left. Just about any A2A would be further.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2018, 15:05
by steve2267
element1loop wrote:
vanshilar wrote:
Note that higher speed long-range cruise, via clean low-drag blended higher percent laminar-flow design, typically makes a vast change to Specific-Consumption, and thus greatly extends achievable range. You can't expect similar effect here on specific consumption as would be seen with any prior fighter type attempting similar recon role (except F-22 that is).


Laminar flow is certainly a design goal of high-performance sailplanes. And air transports will take it if they can get it. However, I have not heard of laminar flow being a design goal of tactical combat aircraft.

Could you please post some links or reference your sources to
  1. F-35 airfoil specifications (NACA 6-series? Eppler design? Completely in-house?)
  2. Wind tunnel test results (or technical papers) showing % chord laminar flow? (CFD results if WTT not available.)

Thanks.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2018, 19:54
by vanshilar
element1loop wrote:Note that higher speed long-range cruise, via clean low-drag blended higher percent laminar-flow design, typically makes a vast change to Specific-Consumption, and thus greatly extends achievable range. You can't expect similar effect here on specific consumption as would be seen with any prior fighter type attempting similar recon role (except F-22 that is).


I'm not sure what you're saying here. The F-35 will already be using optimum cruise conditions for most of an air-to-air flight profile. You're claiming that somehow removing the weight of the missiles (which are carried internally so no additional drag beyond induced) and the minute of combat will somehow increase the radius by 45% -- or that somehow the public numbers are understating the F-35's range by that much. What does laminar-flow design have to do with this?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2018, 20:50
by magitsu
Many seem to desperately want to believe that F-35 did it, when the easier explanation is that this well known foreign psyop vector was once again used for the same purpose.

Most of the value in this case comes from it being semi-plausible if it needed to happen. But why actually risk it at this point? It's only reasonable to keep some assets in the reserve and show them only if things escalate further. Going out with F-35 shortly after one of their F-16 crashed would in some eyes amount to getting baited.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2018, 21:15
by juretrn
Yeah yeah, F-35s actually have a range of 1100nm, and the SU-57 can supercruise that far :roll: . We all know how such stories go.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 03:59
by element1loop
steve2267 wrote:Laminar flow is certainly a design goal of high-performance sailplanes. And air transports will take it if they can get it. However, I have not heard of laminar flow being a design goal of tactical combat aircraft.


Really?

Optimising for PASSIVE "natural laminar flow", as a percent of total flow present behind leading edges has been a part of fighter design since WWII. P-51 and P-60 were optimised for a higher percent of laminar flow behind the leading edge, to increase cruise range without negatively affecting AOA detactment when fighting.

The F-111 and F-14 designs both attempted to achieve a degree of natural laminar flow percent optimisation. Namely to optimise percent flow close to transonic long-range cruise airspeed to improve specific consumption. Thats what it does. If you are assuming It requires shaping the wing, that is not what I'm referring to at all.

ANY curved surface (i.e. not a wing) can be optimised for higher percent laminar flow in a given flow speed range.

" ... an aircraft based upon the P-40 design but featuring a low drag laminar flow wing, ... "

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtiss_P-60

This contains introduction historical summary:
https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/89231main_TF-2004-12-DFRC.pdf

The F-16XL specifically investigated generating ACTIVE laminar flow at supersonic speeds, 1988 thru 1996, and did so successfully (ut that's not at all what I'm referring to).

Its not about creating a laminar flow airfoil, it's optimising the leading edge shapes to create the laminar flow optimisations that you can, once other design requirements are met, such as VLO

Using epoxy-type leading edge materials for LO provides the capacity to make such transonic cruise-speed shape optimisations.

One other benefit being that thermal hotspots created from the kinetics of air turbulence and detachment, decreases if the flow is more laminar and turbulance delayed immediately behind the leading edge, around design sub-sonic cruise speed range.

Good reasons to optimise laminar flow PERCENT, where you can, and not just for airfoil shape, for such innately low drag at cruise speed VLO designs.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 04:23
by element1loop
juretrn wrote:Yeah yeah, F-35s actually have a range of 1100nm, and the SU-57 can supercruise that far :roll: . We all know how such stories go.


You realise that specific consumption charts for turbine aircraft routinely show that maximun range at ~30 k feet is typically 50% less than maximum range with same fuel and weight at 45 k feet?

I have seen instances where the range difference is >75%

It is entirely probable that the official pubic numbers are correct (within definition) and accurate, but probably with respect to flying a 30 k ft profile. (note the F-16 example already mentioned)

It's amazing to me (laughable) that people actually think public-released fighter numbers are the final word, or tell more than a small unrepresentative fraction of the whole story. Rediculous. I've looked at waaay too many AFMs to be so gullible about absolutist buying-into of single aircraft range claim figures.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 13:51
by mixelflick
Getting back on topic..

You know. it's real telling how this whole Israel/F-35 thing has gone. At one point (and I think this was prior to receiving it), the Israeli's expressed interest in the Silent Eagle. Then, there was a lot of talk about getting more F-15I's. As soon as they got their paws on it, that narrative switched to.... "can we have more F-35's please"? LOL

They're getting what, 50 F-35A's? That's a respectable figure, but probably not optimal. So now they're talking about buying 25 or so B's. Which won't fit the long range strike role as well as the F-35A given its reduced range (still impressive, but falls critically short of striking Iran). Likely more concerning from their perspective, the F-35B has no internal gun - albeit they could fly with the gun pod. Given the range of the B, do you see it moreso as a point defense interceptor?

And does anyone know whether that gun pod is low observable? I'd think it would need to be, but hate making assumptions..

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 13:59
by spazsinbad
Yes the gun pod is LO - made by TERMA - you can search the forum with that term....

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=21604&p=238837&hilit=Terma+Observable#p238837

https://www.terma.com/media/210092/pods ... a4.pdf.pdf (200Kb) ATTACHED
"...Low observable radar (Stealth) designs available..."


https://www.terma.com/press/news-2012/f ... n-display/

Various websites describe: "...The gun pod is housed in a semi-low observable (stealthy) enclosure attached to the F-35B and C’s centerlines..." http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/46 ... first-time
OR
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... s-air.html

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 14:18
by mixelflick
Many thanks, and I'll be searching more vigorously next time...

Having said that, I think it's going to be awful interesting to see how often it's carried. I understand a gun kill hasn't been reported since 1988. I get it. But as say an F-35C pilot who's flying offensive or defensive counter air, I'd want it. Because the F-35 can't use it's speed like and F-22 can to dictate the terms. It may get run down by a super-cruising J-20 after expending all of her missiles.

Plus, I can't imagine the drag index is very big. Nor does it take up room for stores, given the F-35 has 6 other hardpoints.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 14:45
by steve2267
mixelflick wrote:Having said that, I think it's going to be awful interesting to see how often it's carried. I understand a gun kill hasn't been reported since 1988.

If an aerial target presents itself within the parameters of the gun, I'm sure a flying Leatherneck would use it to great effect. That said, I think it would be utilized in a ground support role more often than not. Crews has stated that the AV-8B always flew with the gun in theater (e.g. Afganistan).

mixelflick wrote:Because the F-35 can't use it's speed like and F-22 can to dictate the terms.

It's not all about speed.

mixelflick wrote:It may get run down by a super-cruising J-20 after expending all of her missiles.


J-20 will have to find it first, eh?

F-35Is over Iran?

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 16:13
by Smithsguy
Hi all,

See this sort of article on occaision - http://www.arabnews.com/node/1277401/middle-east - any thoughts as to whether there's any truth to them?

Regards,
Smithsguy

Re: F-35Is over Iran?

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 16:23
by SpudmanWP
Could it have happened, sure.

Did it.. Not likely.

Some of the original sources were claiming an unrefueled mission to the three cities cited (Bandar Abbas, Isfahan and Shiraz), This is obviously well outside the stated range of the F-35 so did not happen "unrefueled".

Here is the unrefueled A2A profile of the F-35 in relation to Israel with the three cities marked.

Image

btw, already reported here:

viewtopic.php?p=391954#p391954

Re: F-35Is over Iran?

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 16:31
by marsavian
Discussed previously

viewtopic.php?p=391954#p391954

However your link has one important additional information, the launching country Azerbaijan which could explain how the F-35s got so far.

Image

The planes took off from Azerbaijan and succeeded in carrying reconnaissance missions in Iran close to Iran-Iraq border. The media report detailed that the undetectable stealth planes flew close to sensitive Iranian installations in Bandar Abbas, Isfahan and Shiraz.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbai ... _relations
http://m.jpost.com/Blogs/News-from-Arye ... jan-504474

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 17:45
by milosh
I doubt US would allow Israel to send newest US fighter on some recon mission deep in Iran, last thing JSF program need is wreckage on Iran TV.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 17:52
by marsavian
Not their choice, once they are handed over it's their business what they do with them. Remember Israel was publicly prepared to previously take out Iran's nuclear facilities against Obama's wishes. I would say that this story is more likely to be true than not although the actual details could be inaccurate. Israel has consistently faced an existential crisis bordered by unfriendly Muslim nations, add Turkey to that list now, so it needs to be proactive in its security and defense.

Re: F-35Is over Iran?

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 23:47
by optimist
My money is on, it didn't happen. Israel would get access to the US surveillance.

Re: F-35Is over Iran?

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 00:29
by count_to_10
Here’s a wild theory for you: Saudi Arabia let them land and refuel secretly in exchange for some of the intelligence. :devil:

Re: F-35Is over Iran?

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 02:17
by nutshell
Nah dont think so.

Iirc, the rumor cams from a kuwait newspaper.

This is sputnik/rt level of information

Re: F-35Is over Iran?

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 02:54
by Corsair1963
Could we see one or both of the F-35's Weapons Bays. Adapted to carry an external fuel tank internally??? Which, could extent the range of the Lightning even further. Remember, without the drag of carrying them externally. They would gain more range for the fuel carried vs a 4th Gen Fighter.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 07:11
by nutshell
This story can't be taken seriously. Else we should really start to consider the F35 detectable by old S200 but capable of shrug 215kg warheads off like nothing happened.

Since the program is not called the Joint Strike Panzer, Adirs did not went for a friendly grand tour crossing the whole M.E. un-refueled.

Re: F-35Is over Iran?

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 08:32
by kimjongnumbaun
Corsair1963 wrote:Could we see one or both of the F-35's Weapons Bays. Adapted to carry an external fuel tank internally??? Which, could extent the range of the Lightning even further. Remember, without the drag of carrying them externally. They would gain more range for the fuel carried vs a 4th Gen Fighter.


I don't think the internal bay is plumbed for fuel.

Re: F-35Is over Iran?

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 08:44
by Corsair1963
kimjongnumbaun wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Could we see one or both of the F-35's Weapons Bays. Adapted to carry an external fuel tank internally??? Which, could extent the range of the Lightning even further. Remember, without the drag of carrying them externally. They would gain more range for the fuel carried vs a 4th Gen Fighter.


I don't think the internal bay is plumbed for fuel.



No, it isn't.....My point was maybe they would consider it???

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2018, 12:41
by mk82
nutshell wrote:This story can't be taken seriously. Else we should really start to consider the F35 detectable by old S200 but capable of shrug 215kg warheads off like nothing happened.

Since the program is not called the Joint Strike Panzer, Adirs did not went for a friendly grand tour crossing the whole M.E. un-refueled.


I am all for the F35 shrugging off 215kg warheads like nothing happened LOL! Eat your heart out A10.... :P

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2018, 08:18
by hythelday
Syrian regime confirms strikes against T4 AB; US and France deny responsibility for strikes:

http://m.jpost.com/Middle-East/Syrian-m ... ght-549216

https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/syria-s ... -1.5979493

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43694588

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mide ... SKBN1HG0D8

http://m.dw.com/en/missiles-fired-at-mi ... a-43302966

"14 casualties, including Iranians" is from SORH, which isn't the most unbiased source, but Assad regime confirms strikes against the base (of course, they also reported they shot down attackers and their missiles). TBH this strike package was much more likely to contain F-35s rather than the Iranian recce mission.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2018, 08:38
by hornetfinn
hythelday wrote:Syrian regime confirms strikes against T4 AB; US and France deny responsibility for strikes:


I really wonder who could be responsible for this... :wink:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:30
by element1loop
hythelday wrote:TBH this strike package was much more likely to contain F-35s rather than the Iranian recce mission.


If this is Israel's work it doesn't require jets inside Syria as Delilah ALCM has up to 300 km standoff. They also have at least two truck-mobile ground-launched missiles that could reach T4 from Golan. One with ~1 meter CEP.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2018, 17:55
by hythelday
element1loop wrote:
hythelday wrote:TBH this strike package was much more likely to contain F-35s rather than the Iranian recce mission.


If this is Israel's work it doesn't require jets inside Syria as Delilah ALCM has up to 300 km standoff. They also have at least two truck-mobile ground-launched missiles that could reach T4 from Golan. One with ~1 meter CEP.


But IF it was it was much more likely to have contained F-35s, unlike Iran overflight which probably didn't happen at all. Israel could have used other kind of weapons, but then again IAF conducted "more than 100 airstrikes in Syria over past 5 years" according to their former Air Force chief.

Unless US and French strong worded condemnations aren't another bogus "red line" like a couple dozen before this one, then, in my personal opinion, asking Israel nicely to send over the best ISTAR and ESM platform in the theater prior to more extended action is likely.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2018, 19:09
by marsavian
From the reports the Russians said they were F-15s launching from Lebanon. One would expect the S-400 radar to have spotted them before launching the missiles, of which 5 out of 8 were intercepted apparently.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2018, 05:12
by citanon
Has anyone else posted this?

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/04/wil ... p-balance/

The Israeli F-35A, known as the F-35I Adir, recently took part in the attacks on Syrian ground-air systems that followed the downing of an Israeli F-16 by a Syrian ground -air SA-5 missile.

The IAF refused to be specific but said that the stealth fighter’s capabilities are a “game changer.”

In mid-March, several IAF sources described the F-35 as a “super intelligence collector” in stealth mode and with the capability to disperse the data to forces in the air and on the ground.

IAF Commander Maj. Gen. Amikam Norkin has decided to classify all F-35 operations so as not to give away data an enemy could use to decrease the stealth fighter’s capabilities.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2018, 11:35
by Dragon029
I'd be interested in seeing who they consider to be a source behind that statement; I've only ever seen unsupported speculation behind that claim.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2018, 16:17
by element1loop
Interesting little clash of views re merits and real effects of F-35A.

" ... He added that even the Americans have not yet learned the full operational capabilities of the F-35 “and what they do know they not always share with us. So we have to learn by ourselves and this is being done everyday”

He said that it will be a mistake to invest in another platform based on its capability to carry heavy loads of weapons systems: “The Israeli defense forces have enough ways to use massive fire power against faraway targets”.

Modified Israeli F-15Ds known as F-15 Baz

Another retired IAF brigadier general, who asked not to be identified, said that he was against the acquisition of the F-35 from the outset: “This is a very expensive aircraft that will not really change the capability of the IAF in the coming 20 years.” With the current Israeli defense budget there is no way to create a critical mass buying F-35s. “This is a niche system that cannot serve as a game changer. The combat now is based on standoff weapon systems, which makes the presence of an aircraft like the F-35 in the fighting area less important,” the retired general said.

The contrasting views of the two former high ranking IAF officers symbolize the debate within the IAF. The crucial factor may be the senior leadership of the Israeli Defense Forces and Israel’s intelligence community. ..."


https://breakingdefense.com/2018/04/wil ... p-balance/
----

Depends how deep, how far, and who you want to strike without losing jets or battles. And not to be seen to be ineffective. Obviously not all war is standoff precision air attack. It could be argued the F-35A A2A and ISR is a niche requirement, when IDF can win the air battles already, and has advanced ISR drones and SATS.

Do ya need it?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2018, 18:26
by blindpilot
element1loop wrote:Interesting little clash of views re merits and real effects of F-35A.

[i]" ... we have to learn by ourselves and this is being done everyday”

Another ... “... an aircraft like the F-35 in the fighting area less important,[/b]”



Do ya need it?


How soon they forget 1973 Yom Kippur and the changes that can appear suddenly ... operation Nickel Grass and over 100 replacement aircraft (including right off the assembly line 40 F-4's and 46 A-4's) and 200 replacement tanks. Yes the Israelis could have gone nuclear(and some say were considered it). That's their unique existential circumstance. But ...

When things change ... they change FAST. I don't think they want to wait for replacement F-15s, from a factory that is about to shut down. Especially if those aircraft are going down so fast they need replacement ...

I often tell my 92 year old dad ..."I know you don't really need that cane/walker .... until you do! So use it!" :D :D

MHO,
BP

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2018, 21:47
by sunstersun
It doesn't really matter. Israel is going to order another 25 planes no matter what. Obviously for optics I'd prefer the F-35, but ultimately there are also benefits in keeping the F-15 line open longer.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2018, 23:12
by marauder2048
Another aspect is that the Israelis don't want to endanger their export market for standoff
weaponry; with the exception of the Turks, F-35 weaponry is almost all Western and the
Israelis don't seem to have competitive offerings in that space.


And the other open question is how well Israeli airfields that can host F-15Ds heavily laden
with standoff will stand up to rocket/missile barrages.

And if its about standoff then it's unclear why a nation unconstrained by the INF treaty
wouldn't rely on surface-to-surface missiles.

Fast-jets are the most expensive way to deliver standoff and there are cheaper options
open to the Israelis if it has to be an airborne delivery platform.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 02:58
by element1loop
The geography of the battle seems to be a huge factor in answering the question. Do ya need it?

If you have strategic depth and long-range sensors and comms network the F-35A is the obvious tactical choice, and holds a genuine game-changing capability over every other strike fighter in existence. In Australia's geography I can't imagine ADF being sure of winning a joint air-sea battle without F-35As. But flat top F-35Bs, backed with AWD and frigates, plus Romeo and P-8, would send a strong message to deter anyone even getting into an air-sea-gap battle with Australia, in SE Asia, SW Pacific, and NE Indian ocean.

Seems Israeli, Korean and Taiwanese geography would benefit greatly from 50 or so F-35B, not necessarily the A, but a mix of both would be the ideal. Same for in-your-face USMC attack--a mix of B and C is vastly better than a mix of AV8B (poor range, loiter and small payload) and the knackered classic hornets. 420 F-35B/C ... holy crap.

But then there's the extra cost of the B for the small states.

Short to medium standoff, via ground launch, seems a good cheap-ish insurance policy, and one that's in place now for all such states. But you need more than that if you want to make the situation clear, via having a 'niche' capabiliy to knock out the industrial core production and economy of an enema, that's up to 1,O00 nm away, using adequate internal standoff stealth weapons unrefuelled, for a nice hard-core deter and punish mechanism.

Fortunately Canada and Germany won't need to defend themselves again or win a war before 2060, so they can spend much more $ and € on importing ME refos. Gotta get yer priorities right.

Japan is a frontline major regional power with some standoff and strategic depth, but Japans' also well inside the strike range of several really gigantic enemas. So F-35A seems a no brainer for Japan. Plus flat tops with F-35B. I can't see them holding their own in future, without a preponderance of F-35s in Japan, including Allied.

But on top of this, the J20, J31 force developments make F-35s essential, else suck up to CHICOMs, and take it up the Khyber pass. Fun times. But 4th-gens alone, of whatever flavor you've got, is a losing formula in East and SE Asia from here.

Israel doesn't have that problem, yet.

But in Asia, despite the current ructions, I think F-35s will be the primary stabiliser and enforcer of the peace, untill 2050.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

But it may take one solid demonstration of why a global allied force armed with F-35s will quickly win high-end, before everyone fully agrees. If that's clearly demonstrated, Israel would see the deterring benefits as well. Then more F-35s would make some justifiable sense to IDF, verses more F-15. Because F-15s are going to be increasingly taking a back-row position in Asia as the enforcer of the rules as to where the agreed borders exist, or don't.

F-35B seems to be a better longer-term tactical-mix option for Israel, from here.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 07:10
by hornetfinn
element1loop wrote:Interesting little clash of views re merits and real effects of F-35A.

" ... He added that even the Americans have not yet learned the full operational capabilities of the F-35 “and what they do know they not always share with us. So we have to learn by ourselves and this is being done everyday”

He said that it will be a mistake to invest in another platform based on its capability to carry heavy loads of weapons systems: “The Israeli defense forces have enough ways to use massive fire power against faraway targets”.

Modified Israeli F-15Ds known as F-15 Baz

Another retired IAF brigadier general, who asked not to be identified, said that he was against the acquisition of the F-35 from the outset: “This is a very expensive aircraft that will not really change the capability of the IAF in the coming 20 years.” With the current Israeli defense budget there is no way to create a critical mass buying F-35s. “This is a niche system that cannot serve as a game changer. The combat now is based on standoff weapon systems, which makes the presence of an aircraft like the F-35 in the fighting area less important,” the retired general said.

The contrasting views of the two former high ranking IAF officers symbolize the debate within the IAF. The crucial factor may be the senior leadership of the Israeli Defense Forces and Israel’s intelligence community. ..."


https://breakingdefense.com/2018/04/wil ... p-balance/
----

Depends how deep, how far, and who you want to strike without losing jets or battles. And not to be seen to be ineffective. Obviously not all war is standoff precision air attack. It could be argued the F-35A A2A and ISR is a niche requirement, when IDF can win the air battles already, and has advanced ISR drones and SATS.

Do ya need it?


I think such statements could be found from almost every F-35 user country from some retired generals. Who knows how long ago he retired and what he did and does still. He clearly has no idea about many things regarding F-35 like costs or ability to use stand-off weapons better than previous systems. Besides currently the rather low-intensity fighting against relatively low-tech enemy with small resources Israel has done during the last 35 years can probably be done with F-16s and F-15s in the future pretty well with stand-off weapons. However, what if that changes and there is need to fight against high-tech enemy with large numbers (like the largest wars Israel has been in, or worse)? That might not seem that likely now, but it's still possibility given the volatility of the region. And besides,what's the alternatives for the next 30-40 years?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 08:47
by popcorn
I suspect it's a generational thing.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 09:25
by element1loop
hornetfinn wrote:I think such statements could be found from almost every F-35 user country from some retired generals. Who knows how long ago he retired and what he did and does still. He clearly has no idea about many things regarding F-35 like costs or ability to use stand-off weapons better than previous systems.


I agree with your remarks, we had a lot of those.

However, that does not mean he's in the retired wingnut camp. He may think F-35 is incredible, just surplus to the likely outcomes, particularly if he sees half the bucks for the same bang, with surplus F-15s, plus a strong Allied support sentiment. Then his remarks are not necessarily wrong, nor unreasonable, just a different take, and one worth putting in thread.

BUT ...

If near (i.e. in range) neighbour is 'Erdogan-for-Life', armed with E-7A, F-35A, SOM and JSOW, then by default Israel needs some minimum number of F-35s.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 18:12
by SpudmanWP
popcorn wrote:I suspect it's a generational thing.

He probably still uses a flip phone. :doh:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 18:59
by marauder2048
popcorn wrote:I suspect it's a generational thing.


I dig the double meaning!

Part of the debate in Israel is probably stimulated by the incipient Missile Corp
where the IAF is supposed to be using air-launched derivatives of Israel's Extra
MLRS rocket that will be produced in quantity for the Israeli Navy and ground forces.

I think the argument goes that missile attacks on Israel's air bases will reduce
the sortie generation rate which when combined with the transit time for
a fighter to deliver GBUs starts to eat into the amount of payload you can
put on targets per day.

But fighters equipped with Extra would have relatively brief sorties where they mainly
get into position to fire Extra off-axis.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 20:12
by michaelemouse
element1loop wrote:Interesting little clash of views re merits and real effects of F-35A.

" ... He added that even the Americans have not yet learned the full operational capabilities of the F-35 “and what they do know they not always share with us. So we have to learn by ourselves and this is being done everyday”

He said that it will be a mistake to invest in another platform based on its capability to carry heavy loads of weapons systems: “The Israeli defense forces have enough ways to use massive fire power against faraway targets”.

Modified Israeli F-15Ds known as F-15 Baz

Another retired IAF brigadier general, who asked not to be identified, said that he was against the acquisition of the F-35 from the outset: “This is a very expensive aircraft that will not really change the capability of the IAF in the coming 20 years.” With the current Israeli defense budget there is no way to create a critical mass buying F-35s. “This is a niche system that cannot serve as a game changer. The combat now is based on standoff weapon systems, which makes the presence of an aircraft like the F-35 in the fighting area less important,” the retired general said.

The contrasting views of the two former high ranking IAF officers symbolize the debate within the IAF. The crucial factor may be the senior leadership of the Israeli Defense Forces and Israel’s intelligence community. ..."


https://breakingdefense.com/2018/04/wil ... p-balance/
----

Depends how deep, how far, and who you want to strike without losing jets or battles. And not to be seen to be ineffective. Obviously not all war is standoff precision air attack. It could be argued the F-35A A2A and ISR is a niche requirement, when IDF can win the air battles already, and has advanced ISR drones and SATS.

Do ya need it?


Wouldn't a stealthy platform with C4ISTAR capabilities like the F-35 combine with stand-off weapons like peanut butter and chocolate? Send F-35s deep into enemy territory and at high altitude to detect important targets and guide munitions onto them while 4th gen jets/drones/"missile trucks" stay further back at low altitude until they get a request to launch their stand-off munition toward the enemy. That could mess up a country's IADS and airfields very quickly.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2018, 23:32
by element1loop
michaelemouse wrote:
element1loop wrote:Interesting little clash of views re merits and real effects of F-35A.

" ... He added that even the Americans have not yet learned the full operational capabilities of the F-35 “and what they do know they not always share with us. So we have to learn by ourselves and this is being done everyday”

He said that it will be a mistake to invest in another platform based on its capability to carry heavy loads of weapons systems: “The Israeli defense forces have enough ways to use massive fire power against faraway targets”.

Modified Israeli F-15Ds known as F-15 Baz

Another retired IAF brigadier general, who asked not to be identified, said that he was against the acquisition of the F-35 from the outset: “This is a very expensive aircraft that will not really change the capability of the IAF in the coming 20 years.” With the current Israeli defense budget there is no way to create a critical mass buying F-35s. “This is a niche system that cannot serve as a game changer. The combat now is based on standoff weapon systems, which makes the presence of an aircraft like the F-35 in the fighting area less important,” the retired general said.

The contrasting views of the two former high ranking IAF officers symbolize the debate within the IAF. The crucial factor may be the senior leadership of the Israeli Defense Forces and Israel’s intelligence community. ..."


https://breakingdefense.com/2018/04/wil ... p-balance/
----

Depends how deep, how far, and who you want to strike without losing jets or battles. And not to be seen to be ineffective. Obviously not all war is standoff precision air attack. It could be argued the F-35A A2A and ISR is a niche requirement, when IDF can win the air battles already, and has advanced ISR drones and SATS.

Do ya need it?


Wouldn't a stealthy platform with C4ISTAR capabilities like the F-35 combine with stand-off weapons like peanut butter and chocolate? Send F-35s deep into enemy territory and at high altitude to detect important targets and guide munitions onto them while 4th gen jets/drones/"missile trucks" stay further back at low altitude until they get a request to launch their stand-off munition toward the enemy. That could mess up a country's IADS and airfields very quickly.


Of course, the point being made by the former IDF officer is, do you need an F-35Ai to do that? Or can existing IDF ISR drone's precision targetting already achieve that outcome cheaper, and drone attrition not matter so much as a trade-off for the effects and forces degradation achieved.

" ... like peanut butter and chocolate? ..." :shock:

:doh: ... you're talking to vegemite on toast, mate.

Decadent girlie-man. :lmao:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2018, 02:34
by marauder2048
element1loop wrote:
michaelemouse wrote:
element1loop wrote:Interesting little clash of views re merits and real effects of F-35A.

[quote

Wouldn't a stealthy platform with C4ISTAR capabilities like the F-35 combine with stand-off weapons like peanut butter and chocolate? Send F-35s deep into enemy territory and at high altitude to detect important targets and guide munitions onto them while 4th gen jets/drones/"missile trucks" stay further back at low altitude until they get a request to launch their stand-off munition toward the enemy. That could mess up a country's IADS and airfields very quickly.


Of course, the point being made by the former IDF officer is, do you need an F-35Ai to do that? Or can existing IDF ISR drone's precision targetting already achieve that outcome cheaper, and drone attrition not matter so much as a trade-off for the effects and forces degradation achieved.

" ... like peanut butter and chocolate? ..." :shock:

:doh: ... you're talking to vegemite on toast, mate.

Decadent girlie-man. :lmao:


Are the drones with sufficient ISR capability, fast enough transit and long enough endurance (in an advanced IADS environment/C-UAS environment) really that attritable and runway independent?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2018, 03:54
by blindpilot
michaelemouse wrote:..

Wouldn't a stealthy platform with C4ISTAR capabilities like the F-35 combine with stand-off weapons like peanut butter and chocolate? Send F-35s deep into enemy territory and at high altitude to detect important targets and guide munitions onto them while 4th gen jets/drones/"missile trucks" stay further back at low altitude until they get a request to launch their stand-off munition toward the enemy. That could mess up a country's IADS and airfields very quickly.

marauder2048 wrote:...
Are the drones with sufficient ISR capability, fast enough transit and long enough endurance (in an advanced IADS environment/C-UAS environment) really that attritable and runway independent?


And I can make a phone call on my flip phone, check GPS with my Garmin, and get internet on my old 7 inch Samsung Galaxy SII, while listening to my iPod(if I can find them) .... all cheaper for the bunch than the new iPhone.

If we keep on that path we will continue to miss the point of what is happening ...

FWIW, MHO
BP

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2018, 08:50
by kimjongnumbaun
The issue being drones have lag time and can be jammed. A manned platform like the F-35 can prosecute a dynamic mission as long the pilot is aware of the commander's intent. While drones are useful and cheap, they aren't an end all to every solution.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2018, 08:56
by element1loop
blindpilot wrote: ... all cheaper for the bunch than the new iPhone.

If we keep on that path we will continue to miss the point of what is happening ...

FWIW, MHO
BP


Which is conversely what the unnamed Israeli Brig-Gen Ret. is saying, " ... we can't afford an iPhone, too'.

All academic now, because they have them AND they need them.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2018, 09:10
by element1loop
marauder2048 wrote:Are the drones with sufficient ISR capability, fast enough transit and long enough endurance (in an advanced IADS environment/C-UAS environment) really that attritable and runway independent?


Sure, though it's an assumption IAF doesn't have survivable targetting drones, that are far ahead of the old T-models we see puttering over Gaza. Advanced IADS have been on IDFs doorstep for a very long time. What would you have done about it?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2018, 09:26
by element1loop
kimjongnumbaun wrote:The issue being drones have lag time and can be jammed. A manned platform like the F-35 can prosecute a dynamic mission as long the pilot is aware of the commander's intent. While drones are useful and cheap, they aren't an end all to every solution.


Agree your points, but I think we're much more squemish about autonomy than they, even in EMS disrupted environments. If their missiles can do autonomy, why not the l drones too---most of the time? Lots of scope to develop that. As for lag, they can have drones up 24/7 during escalating tension. And I'm pretty sure Iran doesn't have the better western developed drone.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2018, 10:18
by quicksilver
“Interesting little clash of views re merits and real effects of F-35A.”

Yeah, and the debate isn’t about drones — it’s about F-15s, which are even more expensive than F-35.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2018, 11:41
by hornetfinn
element1loop wrote:Of course, the point being made by the former IDF officer is, do you need an F-35Ai to do that? Or can existing IDF ISR drone's precision targetting already achieve that outcome cheaper, and drone attrition not matter so much as a trade-off for the effects and forces degradation achieved.


I think that depends on what kind of wars and conflicts IDF is going to preapare for. For many low-end conflicts drones and other assets can probably do a good job. However if they want to have high capability in all situations, that's just not going to work well with current or near future drone technology.

Also current F-15s and F-16s are going to need replacement and some point and F-35 is definitely the best possible replacement for both, especially for Israel. Buying newer versions of F-15s and F-16s isn't going to be any cheaper and would have no other benefits either especially in the long run. Of course it's debatable how fast Israel should or could transform the IAF.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2018, 14:14
by element1loop
quicksilver wrote:“Interesting little clash of views re merits and real effects of F-35A.”

Yeah, and the debate isn’t about drones — it’s about F-15s, which are even more expensive than F-35.


No, not really. He's interested in affiordable standoff strike "critical mass" in the next 20 year interval. He doesn't seem to care how it happens, just that cheaper means more standoff weapon strike in a high-intensity war of the future.

"... is a niche system that cannot serve as a game changer. The combat now is based on standoff weapon systems, which makes the presence of an aircraft like the F-35 in the fighting area less important ..."


Not unimportant, just surplus to requirements for the same outcome (in his view). He's certainly incorrect about cost. I'd say he's wrong about ISR/SA benefit too. So the nub of his argument is defunct.

'He', who ever he is, is discounting the need for on the spot ISR and SA. Why? Because it's redundant for practical purposes, as it is an ...

" ... aircraft that will not really change the capability of the IAF n the coming 20 years. ..."


Not necessarily now.

For practical purposes it gives them nothing in attack that they can't already do. The C4ISR needed to find and hit targets precisely, with standoff weapons, is already in place via other means. Whether it's via drones or something else is immaterial.

He's thus sayng the sensors and weapons matter much more than platforms. A truck is as good as a jet, better, as its much cheaper. For Israel's geography he's not necessarily wrong. He's more interested in affordable "critical mass", in a future major war, as he seems to think the cost of new jets will take away from hitting-power between now and 2038.

I don't think he wants more F-15s at all he just wants to lower the cost of standoff targets killed, to ensure a "critical mass" will exist in 2038.

Frankly, I'd like to hear him without a media filter and see where he's really coming from. But that's me, I always want to figure out what will work better to win faster and stick the result.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2018, 17:52
by SpudmanWP
element1loop wrote:he just wants to lower the cost of standoff targets killed, to ensure a "critical mass" will exist in 2038.

The F-35, in multiple LFEs, has proven itself to be the "cheaper" option when prosecuting a mission since they don't need supporting assets like ISR, IFR, escorts, EW support, etc.

The Dutch showed (and the F-15Cs in Japan agree) that the F-35 can act as a force multiplier by protecting & hiding the 4th gen assets which makes the existing 4th gen for more lethal.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 06:07
by element1loop
SpudmanWP wrote:
element1loop wrote:he just wants to lower the cost of standoff targets killed, to ensure a "critical mass" will exist in 2038.

The F-35, in multiple LFEs, has proven itself to be the "cheaper" option when prosecuting a mission since they don't need supporting assets like ISR, IFR, escorts, EW support, etc.

The Dutch showed (and the F-15Cs in Japan agree) that the F-35 can act as a force multiplier by protecting & hiding the 4th gen assets which makes the existing 4th gen for more lethal.


Preaching to the converted. :wink:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 12:02
by ricnunes
element1loop wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:Are the drones with sufficient ISR capability, fast enough transit and long enough endurance (in an advanced IADS environment/C-UAS environment) really that attritable and runway independent?


Sure, though it's an assumption IAF doesn't have survivable targetting drones, that are far ahead of the old T-models we see puttering over Gaza. Advanced IADS have been on IDFs doorstep for a very long time. What would you have done about it?


I don't believe that the IAF (or any other service/country) has drones with are or could be highly survivable against modern IADS. IMO, the reason is more economical than technical since in order for anyone to design a drone which could be highly survivable against modern IADS, the drone would need to have extensive stealth features (the same as a manned fighter), extensive and advanced EW suites (the same or even better than manned fighter), etc... which means that in the end you would end up with a drone which by itself would be just as expensive as a manner fighter and in the end more expensive than a manner fighter because you have to add the respective control center's cost to the drone itself.
Resuming, a highly survivable drone (again modern IADS) would be more expensive than a manned fighter which by itself defeats one of the main purposes of drones (which is being "cheap").


element1loop wrote:No, not really. He's interested in affiordable standoff strike "critical mass" in the next 20 year interval. He doesn't seem to care how it happens, just that cheaper means more standoff weapon strike in a high-intensity war of the future.


From what I get or understand here you/author are referring to other means of standoff long range attack like for example, submarine launched cruise missiles like the Tomahawk or even long range ballistic missile like IRBMs (hopefully armed with conventional warheads instead of nukes).

But the problem here is that these solutions seems to be more expensive than a cruise missile launched from a F-35. Let's look for example at the following simplistic and academic example, comparing a F-35 armed with a JSM missile and a Submarine armed with Tomahawk (or "Tomahawk-class" missiles) in terms of costs:
- While I couldn't find a unit cost for the JSM, I found a USD $350,000 per unit cost for the NSM (which the JSM is based on), so I going to assume a unit cost for the JSM to be around USD $500,000. Adding to this cost we have the cost per flight hour (CPFH) of the F-35. I going to assume a 2.5 hour mission at a CPFH of around $25,000 which gives a total in terms of CPFH for the F-35 of $62,500, add this value to the cost of the JSM and we would have have a total mission cost (for these two parameters) of a rounded value of $563,000.
- Now compare the value above ($563,000) with the cost of a single Tomahawk seems to be around USD $1.87 Million per unit. That in itself is already much higher than the combined CPFH+JSM of the F-35. But in order to have an apples-to-apples comparison for this academic and simplistic example you also need to add the operational cost of the Submarine. How much is this? To be honest I don't have a clue but I'm willing to bet that cheap it isn't :wink:

I would also bet that IRBMs would be even more expensive and also brings the added and perceived risk by the enemy of an incoming IRBM to be carrying nukes instead of conventional warhead a situation which could trigger a nuclear war!


Regarding the F-35 with cruise missiles, it theory you could do a similar mission with F-15s or F-16s also armed with cruise missiles. But like hornetfinn said, legacy fighter aircraft like the F-15/F-16 will need replacement and this rather soon than later and these legacy fighter aircraft are only becoming more expensive to manufacture and maintain (namely with their production lines dwindling as time goes by) and this not to mention that their survivability against emerging enemy fighter aircraft will be limited at best but more likely they'll be at a severe disadvantage against these new emerging enemy fighter aircraft.
Resuming it will be cheaper to purchase and maintain F-35s than to purchase and maintain new F-15s/F-16s or even cheaper than updating old F-15s/F-16s this in the long run, not to mention safer and much more effective.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 14:51
by mixelflick
What about the cost of acquiring an F-35 itself? Israel has paid north of $100 million for each so far, but let's call it an even $100 million.

**What if** they lose an F-35, to say nothing of the pilot? Doesn't the cruise missile option now become the more cost/effective solution? I thought that was the whole premise of the ALCM/GLCM/SLCM - it doesn't put a big $ platform or human at risk of being captured/killed??

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 16:15
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:What about the cost of acquiring an F-35 itself? Israel has paid north of $100 million for each so far, but let's call it an even $100 million.

**What if** they lose an F-35, to say nothing of the pilot? Doesn't the cruise missile option now become the more cost/effective solution? I thought that was the whole premise of the ALCM/GLCM/SLCM - it doesn't put a big $ platform or human at risk of being captured/killed??

That's single entry bookkeeping. What are the costs if Israel doesn't have that capability? What are the costs if one of their foes prosecutes successful attacks? What are the costs if multiple 4th generation aircraft/pilots are lost?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 16:44
by michaelemouse
mixelflick wrote:What about the cost of acquiring an F-35 itself? Israel has paid north of $100 million for each so far, but let's call it an even $100 million.

**What if** they lose an F-35, to say nothing of the pilot? Doesn't the cruise missile option now become the more cost/effective solution? I thought that was the whole premise of the ALCM/GLCM/SLCM - it doesn't put a big $ platform or human at risk of being captured/killed??


Cruise missiles (CMs )can still be useful against stationary targets or mobile targets which haven't moved much and have been geolocated (for GPS guidance) and are emitting (for anti-radiation missiles). One thing CMs are ill-suited to do is finding the target, identifying it and targeting it.

CMs might do it, you could perhaps launch a 1 million dollar munition in the direction of the enemy and hope you find worthwhile targets before fuel runs out. Perhaps at some point in the future, the opening salvos of a war will be conducted like that. But for the foreseeable future, you'll need some reusable platform to find the targets if they haven't been courteous enough to highlight themselves for you.

That's where having a platform with good data gathering ability, LPI communications, stealth and the ability to dodge enemy missiles and rush out is useful. You could see the F-35 as a special forces team which can do a lot more damage by infiltrating and designating targets than it can with its own organic weapons.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Apr 2018, 22:46
by ricnunes
mixelflick wrote:What about the cost of acquiring an F-35 itself? Israel has paid north of $100 million for each so far, but let's call it an even $100 million.


Then you should also ask about the acquisition cost of the Submarine, no?
If you noticed I also didn't include the acquisition cost of the Submarine which is obviously much more expensive than the acquisition cost of a F-35.
According to some sources a batch of two Dolphin-class submarines (the Submarines used by Israel) cost €1.3 billion (650 million Euros or around $801 million USD per each submarine) while the last submarine of this same class (the 6th) cost $1 Billion USD:
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,734 ... 89,00.html

As you can also see, I included the operational cost (cost per flight hour) of the F-35 plus the F-35 weapon against a Submarine launched cruise missile without including the submarine's operational cost (which again I don't know). So my comparison was already giving a better case scenario for the sub/cruise missile compared to the F-35.

mixelflick wrote:**What if** they lose an F-35, to say nothing of the pilot? Doesn't the cruise missile option now become the more cost/effective solution? I thought that was the whole premise of the ALCM/GLCM/SLCM - it doesn't put a big $ platform or human at risk of being captured/killed??


And again "what if" they lose the submarine?? A type 212 submarine (which the Dolphin-class is somehow based on) has a crew complement of 27 souls. It is not known the number of crewmen that the Dolphin-class submarine has but it is known to be higher than the Type 212 (even because the Dolphin is larger than the Type 212).
So if the submarine is lost we're probably talking about more than 30 souls, much worse than a single F-35 pilot isn't it?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2018, 04:06
by viper12
ricnunes wrote:while the last submarine of this same class (the 6th) cost $1 Million USD:
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,734 ... 89,00.html


$1 Billion USD, with a B. :mrgreen:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2018, 04:55
by element1loop
ricnunes wrote:But the problem here is that these solutions seems to be more expensive than a cruise missile launched from a F-35. Let's look for example... // --> down the rabbit hole ...


omg :doh: :roll:

Have you not heard of a truck? And yes, IDF cruise missiles can currently be launched from trucks (or from a drone, if they wanted to).

scheeesh

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2018, 17:15
by ricnunes
viper12 wrote:
ricnunes wrote:while the last submarine of this same class (the 6th) cost $1 Million USD:
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,734 ... 89,00.html


$1 Billion USD, with a B. :mrgreen:


Oops! Thanks Viper for the correction :thumb:

Edited my previous post to correct this.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2018, 17:18
by ricnunes
element1loop wrote:
ricnunes wrote:But the problem here is that these solutions seems to be more expensive than a cruise missile launched from a F-35. Let's look for example... // --> down the rabbit hole ...


omg :doh: :roll:

Have you not heard of a truck? And yes, IDF cruise missiles can currently be launched from trucks (or from a drone, if they wanted to).

scheeesh


Omg, have heard about range??

Good luck reaching farther targets such as Iran with cruise missiles fired from trucks :doh:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2018, 23:22
by element1loop
Have you heard of boosters and drones?

IDF's been able to hit Iran for at least 20 years if they really needed to (but to sustain the strawman about subs and SLCMs, i.e. to avoid the point, bring up Iran to move the goal post and make new strawman---will Pakistan be the next "range" goal post?).

As someone already pointed out you can toss large ALCMs (with a booster) out of a C-130 for long-range high tempo attack, with high repeatable numbers. Some people even put them on container ships---the cargo charges must be outrageous.

But no, TLAMs from a fleet of BIG nuke subs make more sense to you--nonsense.

The Israeli guy's whole point was to use a CHEAPER means to employ precision standoff, in higher (i.e. "critical mass") numbers fast, in 20 years time. So instead, you immediately go to the most expensive delivery platform in existence for a very limited standoff capability with very slow reload salvo times that are measured in weeks.

i.e. precisely the opposite of what he was talking about.

Seems a bit disingenuous. :doh: :roll:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Apr 2018, 02:08
by ricnunes
@element1loop,

Please go an re-read my previous posts AGAIN!
For example, you failed to realise the disadvantages that I (and others) said about drones - They are not nearly as survivable as F-35s. And I would even add another disadvantage to drones: In order have a drone capable of carrying long range cruise missiles you'll need a much larger and therefore more expensive drones than the "cheap" ones that are often mentioned.

You also failed to realise one of the points of one of my previous post:
- Those "large ALCMs" by themselves (and as such EXCLUDING the launch platform!) are more expensive than the combination of a long range weapon employed by the F-35 such as the JSM plus the F-35's CPFH needed to release such long range weapon (JSM or other similar weapons).


But no, TLAMs from a fleet of BIG nuke subs make more sense to you--nonsense.


Who mentioned nuclear subs here?? Really?? :roll:
First, Israel doesn't have nuclear subs! The most advanced Israeli sub class is the Dolphin-Class which are CONVENTIONAL submarines and these submarines have capability to employ a weapons similar to the TLAM with either conventional or even nuclear warhead, one of such weapons is a modified version of the Popeye air launched missile, the Popeye Turbo SLCM which the Israelis developed because the Americans refused to sell them TLAMs in the past.
Besides, those Dolphin-Class subs are not that "big".

Also and apparently from what I've read, the combination of subs and SLCMs are seen as one of the most important deterrence means by Israel against Iran.

So before you accuse others of posting nonsense perhaps you could actually learn some reading skills, not to mention to learn "politeness skills" as well... :roll:


The Israeli guy's whole point was to use a CHEAPER means to employ precision standoff, in higher (i.e. "critical mass") numbers fast, in 20 years time. So instead, you immediately go to the most expensive delivery platform in existence for a very limited standoff capability with very slow reload salvo times that are measured in weeks.


And again if you actually read others posts you'll see that:
1- There's no actual or hardly a CHEAPER mean to deliver long range weapons than a F-35 (my main point in previous posts). So I clearly disagree with that "Israeli guy".
2- Others such as michaelemouse mentioned another very important point: Those "other means" are also very limited in terms of effectiveness when used against targets that can either move and/or relocate with ease. And again they are NOT cheaper!

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Apr 2018, 04:36
by element1loop
ricnunes wrote:Please go an re-read my previous posts AGAIN!!


Not a chance am I wasting my time reading your gibberish again, if you can't comprehend that trucks are cheaper than subs you're not going to be taken seriously.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Apr 2018, 16:15
by michaelemouse
The F-35, without pylons (and you wouldn't use pylons on a stealth aircraft when taking on an IADS) can carry 2 air-to-air missiles and 2 2000lbs air-to-ground munitions in its internal weapons bay. That really isn't much which suggests that the F-35 isn't being considered by Israel mainly as a shooting platform but as an ISR with the stealth, agility and speed to be survivable. Related to what I said earlier, the main bottleneck in modern war is often not one of payload, range or speed but of spotting, identifying and guiding.

Element1loop, you seem to be of the opinion that drones with equivalent C4ISTAR capabilities can have a better survivability/cost ratio than the F-35. I don't know of any drone which has that and I'd like to find out more about them. Could you provide some links?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Apr 2018, 16:21
by SpudmanWP
Block 3F has 8 internal SDBs (40-60nm depending on altitude & speed of release). Everything delivered since last Aug/Sep is Block 3F.

Block 4 brings Spear3 and SDB2

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Apr 2018, 22:24
by ricnunes
element1loop wrote:
ricnunes wrote:Please go an re-read my previous posts AGAIN!!


Not a chance am I wasting my time reading your gibberish again, if you can't comprehend that trucks are cheaper than subs you're not going to be taken seriously.


Jesus, where did I say that trucks are not cheaper than submarines?? :bang:

What I said is that one of those long range truck launched missiles is more expensive than one of the long range weapons of the F-35 (I mentioned JSM but there are also other options) plus the operational F-35 cost to launch that same weapon.
I'm sorry to hear that your I.Q. and learning skills aren't enough to comprehend this and as such you should not accuse others of "gibberish" when the problem/limitation is on your side. :roll:

Anyway, I feel that you're lost case and as such it's useless to continue this conversation (or any other conversation) with you...

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Apr 2018, 22:32
by ricnunes
SpudmanWP wrote:Block 3F has 8 internal SDBs (40-60nm depending on altitude & speed of release). Everything delivered since last Aug/Sep is Block 3F.

Block 4 brings Spear3 and SDB2


Absolutely!

A F-35 carrying 8 (eight) SDBs (SDBI now and SDBII soon) plus 2 AMRAAMs can deliver quite a punch at a respectable range while maintaining its Stealth.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2018, 05:20
by Corsair1963
michaelemouse wrote:The F-35, without pylons (and you wouldn't use pylons on a stealth aircraft when taking on an IADS) can carry 2 air-to-air missiles and 2 2000lbs air-to-ground munitions in its internal weapons bay. That really isn't much which suggests that the F-35 isn't being considered by Israel mainly as a shooting platform but as an ISR with the stealth, agility and speed to be survivable. Related to what I said earlier, the main bottleneck in modern war is often not one of payload, range or speed but of spotting, identifying and guiding.

Element1loop, you seem to be of the opinion that drones with equivalent C4ISTAR capabilities can have a better survivability/cost ratio than the F-35. I don't know of any drone which has that and I'd like to find out more about them. Could you provide some links?


Sorry, a typical external load for most 4th Generation Fighters like the Viper is ~ 4,000 - 5,000 lbs. Which, is same as the F-35A/C. (not counting external fuel tanks, targeting pods, and/or Jammers) :doh:

F16A.jpg



F16B.jpg

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2018, 05:44
by Corsair1963
Here's a common site for a Rafale with 6 AASM Hammers....(550 lbs each) plus four Air to Air Missiles.


Rafale.jpg



The innermost pylons always carry external fuel on a 4/4.5 Generation Fighter. While, the center wing plyons carry nothing more than a single 2,000 lbs class weapon or 2-3 smaller Weapon of 2,000 lbs or less. This Rafale shows the options available. Yet, you won't see most missions with a bomb load more than 4,000 - 5,000 lbs max. As they couldn't carry external fuel if the did.... :shock:


RAFALE1A.jpg

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2018, 08:45
by quicksilver
“Interesting little clash of views re merits and real effects of F-35A.”

“Yeah, and the debate isn’t about drones — it’s about F-15s, which are even more expensive than F-35.”

“No, not really.”

Yes, really.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2018, 09:09
by hornetfinn
michaelemouse wrote:The F-35, without pylons (and you wouldn't use pylons on a stealth aircraft when taking on an IADS) can carry 2 air-to-air missiles and 2 2000lbs air-to-ground munitions in its internal weapons bay. That really isn't much which suggests that the F-35 isn't being considered by Israel mainly as a shooting platform but as an ISR with the stealth, agility and speed to be survivable. Related to what I said earlier, the main bottleneck in modern war is often not one of payload, range or speed but of spotting, identifying and guiding.


True when talking about single F-35, but with F-35 there are so many options available. Let's say we have 20 F-35s for a mission to take out some high value targets.

Full stealth aircraft to take out toughest targets
4 with 2 AMRAAMs and 2 JDAM/JSOW/LGB/JSM/etc. = 8 AMRAAMs and 8 large weapons
4 with 2 AMRAAMs and 8 SDB/Spear/other small weapon = 8 AMRAAMs and 32 SDB/Spear

Follow-on hard hitters (Of course these could also be something like F-15E/I):
4 with 2 AMRAAMs, 2 AIM-9X and 4-6 JDAM/JSOW/LGB/JSM/etc. = 8 AMRAAMs, 8 AIM-9X and 16-24 large weapons
4 with 2 AMRAAMs, 2 AIM-9X and say 16 SDB/Spear/other small weapon = 8 AMRAAMs, 8 AIM-9X and 64 SDB/Spear

Air-to-air cover with near full stealth:
4 with 4/6 internal AMRAAM and 2 AIM-9X/ASRAAM = 16/24 AMRAAM and 8 AIM-9X/ASRAAM

Total of 48-64 AMRAAMs, 32 AIM-9X/ASRAAM, 24-32 JDAM/JSOW, 96 SDB/Spear class weapons

That would be really overwhelming force against pretty much any current or near future enemy target and defences. F-35s would act as ISR platform, stealth bomber, heavy interdictor, air superiority platform and EW platform in a single mission. All this could be done with Israeli F-35s without outside help.

I agree that spotting, identifying and guiding weapons is the biggest bottleneck with current platforms and F-35 changing all that due to stealth and SA allowing it to go close to targets and use great sensor system to identify and guide weapons to their targets.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2018, 10:17
by Corsair1963
Even the F-15E Strike Eagle isn't going to match the F-35A/C on Payload vs Range. Something you never hear the critics discuss!

Wonder why..... :wink:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2018, 10:21
by Corsair1963
quicksilver wrote:“Interesting little clash of views re merits and real effects of F-35A.”

“Yeah, and the debate isn’t about drones — it’s about F-15s, which are even more expensive than F-35.”

“No, not really.”

Yes, really.



Your not going to buy any version of the Strike Eagle cheaper than the F-35A. Which, is why this whole idea of Israel acquiring more F-15's over F-35's is "ABSURD". :shock:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 13:31
by hythelday
Alleged Iranian SSM depot in Syria under attack last night:

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-new ... -1.6035801
https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Syria ... ses-553080
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/30/worl ... ctionfront
https://apnews.com/89c19b1d9cff48baa624 ... y-Iranians
https://www.afp.com/en/news/23/missile- ... oc-14f8q31
http://www.dw.com/en/syria-state-media- ... a-43586377

While there's been a number of speculations whether or not Adirs have seen combat already (including some reports about shoot-downs, of course), there hasn't been any fool proof evidence of such involvement.

However at this point it is just a matter of time. Iran is firmly implanted in Syria, and it isn't there to spread friendship and co-prosperity. It cannot afford to keep losing expensive and hard to replace assets to Israeli airstrikes, so its options are 1) withdraw 2) defend. Since withdrawing is quite unlikely to say the least, I say it'll try to set up and use air defence bubble which the Israelis will naturally seek to destroy. And while small-scale, thoroughly organized and supported strikes are doable with Sufas and Raams (even then some losses are inevitable, as was recently demonstrated) a dedicated SEAD package will have to contain F-35s.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 17:37
by loke
Corsair1963 wrote:
Your not going to buy any version of the Strike Eagle cheaper than the F-35A. Which, is why this whole idea of Israel acquiring more F-15's over F-35's is "ABSURD". :shock:

So Israel changed their mind about buying more F-15?

In any case, it seems the IAF believes the F-15 can carry more than the F-35:

According to sources close to the issue, while the F-35 can perform best when its stealth feature is essential — in later phases of combat — the IAF believes the need is for other aircraft, ones with advanced avionics that can operate in conjunction with the F-35 and carry heavy loads of weapons.


https://breakingdefense.com/2018/04/wil ... p-balance/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 18:13
by spazsinbad
What happens when BEAST MODE is enabled for the F-35i - is the F-15 more capable? Dunno. You tell me please. Viddy:

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=51255&p=376723&hilit=Beast+Mode#p376723



Image

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 22:14
by blindpilot
spazsinbad wrote:What happens when BEAST MODE is enabled for the F-35i - is the F-15 more capable? Dunno. You tell me please....


Well, by the time you hang on a few sensor/targeting pods, the Eagle's 23,000 lbs is not more than a beast mode F-35A. However, the F-15 can carry special munitions including the 5,000 lb GBU-28 bunker buster, I don't think there is any plans to rate the F-35 external stations to 5,000 lbs. They both carry about the same in SDB/500 lb/ etc. as far as that goes.

FWIW
BP

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 22:36
by vanshilar
blindpilot wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:I don't think there is any plans to rate the F-35 external stations to 5,000 lbs.


The two innermost wing pylons (one on each side) are supposed to be rated for 5,000 lb.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 22:37
by spazsinbad
Thanks 'BP & 'vanshilar''. http://www.gunnies.com.au/docs/F-35_weapons_roadmap.pdf Heheh beat me to it. :doh:

Download URL does not work now so the PDF is attached below. Graphic is on page 8 of 9.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 22:41
by ricnunes
blindpilot wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:What happens when BEAST MODE is enabled for the F-35i - is the F-15 more capable? Dunno. You tell me please....


Well, by the time you hang on a few sensor/targeting pods, the Eagle's 23,000 lbs is not more than a beast mode F-35A. However, the F-15 can carry special munitions including the 5,000 lb GBU-28 bunker buster, I don't think there is any plans to rate the F-35 external stations to 5,000 lbs. They both carry about the same in SDB/500 lb/ etc. as far as that goes.

FWIW
BP


According to the image below the inner wing pylons will be rated to 5000lb:

Image

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2018, 00:41
by marsavian
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... bu-448646/
Israel has proposed a deal to purchase additional Boeing F-15s, in a package that would also include upgrading the Israeli air force's existing I-model examples of the strike aircraft.

Worth almost $4 billion, the potential purchase would include 25 twin-engined F-15Is in an advanced configuration. The new version's airframe would have an extended lifespan and enhanced features including a large-area cockpit display.

The purchase of additional F-15s has recently gained priority for the Israeli air force's high command over ordering aircraft for a third squadron of Lockheed Martin F-35Is. The rationale for this decision is that while the F-35's stealth features are essential at the start of a conflict, the type will need be flown during later combat sorties in conjunction with assets capable of carrying a heavier weapons load.

Flight Fleets Analyzer records the Israeli air force as currently operating 25 F-15Is, aged between 18 and 20 years. These aircraft would be modified to the same enhanced standard as the proposed additional batch, if the deal goes ahead. Sources indicate that a purchase is likely to advance around the mid-way point of a 10-year military spending package recently approved by the USA.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2018, 04:31
by steve2267
Wow. So 25 F-15I's trump 40+ F-35A's. Who woulda thunk it!? Not me...

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2018, 04:42
by SpudmanWP
You missed the point.

They'll buy more F-15Is "IF" the package also includes upgrading all the existing F-15Is to the new standard.

Given that they'll likely end up with 75+ F-35s, these would be a good VLBT (Very Large Bomb Truck) to follow the F-35 through the gap that the F-35's clear. The F-35's would also provide ESM and SA for the F-15s to hit their targets without ever seeing them for themselves.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2018, 14:11
by mixelflick
The telling part of that is this...

They WERE considering additional F-15I's and/or Silent Eagles. Both those options were floated. But as soon as they got their hands on the F-35, all they wanted was.... more F-35's. :)

I'm not sure how they're going to prioritize what it replaces first. It would obviously be their primary and most capable strike platform in any raid on the Iranian nuclear reactors. But it will also be their most effective air to air platform just by virtue of its VLO RCS. If anyone can dis-spell the myth the F-35 can't turn, accelerate, climb and run it's them. If they deem the F-35 superior to the F-15 in these metrics, there will no longer be any doubt it's the better air to air platform.

Yes, yes I know the EM diagrams already tell us this. But I used a very specific word for a reason, doubt. And there will continue to be doubt until it dominates air to air. Perception as they say, is reality. And we are still (to some extent) stuck with that reality...

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2018, 16:29
by hythelday
mixelflick wrote:The telling part of that is this...

They WERE considering additional F-15I's and/or Silent Eagles. Both those options were floated. But as soon as they got their hands on the F-35, all they wanted was.... more F-35's. :)

I'm not sure how they're going to prioritize what it replaces first. It would obviously be their primary and most capable strike platform in any raid on the Iranian nuclear reactors. But it will also be their most effective air to air platform just by virtue of its VLO RCS. If anyone can dis-spell the myth the F-35 can't turn, accelerate, climb and run it's them. If they deem the F-35 superior to the F-15 in these metrics, there will no longer be any doubt it's the better air to air platform.

Yes, yes I know the EM diagrams already tell us this. But I used a very specific word for a reason, doubt. And there will continue to be doubt until it dominates air to air. Perception as they say, is reality. And we are still (to some extent) stuck with that reality...


Well there aren't any F-35 EM diagrams in public domain, so we really can't tell, now can we? Also I do not believe F-35 can carry a couple of 5,000 pound bunker busters as far as Ra'am can.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2018, 13:54
by mixelflick
hythelday wrote:
mixelflick wrote:The telling part of that is this...

They WERE considering additional F-15I's and/or Silent Eagles. Both those options were floated. But as soon as they got their hands on the F-35, all they wanted was.... more F-35's. :)

I'm not sure how they're going to prioritize what it replaces first. It would obviously be their primary and most capable strike platform in any raid on the Iranian nuclear reactors. But it will also be their most effective air to air platform just by virtue of its VLO RCS. If anyone can dis-spell the myth the F-35 can't turn, accelerate, climb and run it's them. If they deem the F-35 superior to the F-15 in these metrics, there will no longer be any doubt it's the better air to air platform.

Yes, yes I know the EM diagrams already tell us this. But I used a very specific word for a reason, doubt. And there will continue to be doubt until it dominates air to air. Perception as they say, is reality. And we are still (to some extent) stuck with that reality...


Well there aren't any F-35 EM diagrams in public domain, so we really can't tell, now can we? Also I do not believe F-35 can carry a couple of 5,000 pound bunker busters as far as Ra'am can.


You may be right. Yet, there is something about the aircraft that they really, really like. All of their comments thus far have been exceedingly positive. "What the Americans have accomplished with this aircraft is very, very special. Shortly after takeoff the entire Middle East is displayed for you..". Something to that effect.

So it's likely the avionics/stealth, but who knows... it may be the kinematics too. I can understand why the EM diagrams are classified, so operational performance is our only clue. I suppose how and what role they deploy the aircraft in first will be indicative of its strengths. That too though, may remain classified..

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 14:18
by fang
IAF F-35i (Adir) made emergency landing in Portsmouth air port (NH) yesterday afternoon.
The plane was together with another two F-35i's on delivery to Nevatim AFB, Israel
http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/2018 ... p-at-pease

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 14:26
by spazsinbad
First line of 'news' says FOUR whilst Three are described locationwise - so where was the fourth location?

"PORTSMOUTH -- Four of what appeared to be the newest models of the Air Force’s F-35 fighter jets made a stop at the Portsmouth International Airport at Pease on Monday.... Bruce Cultrera, the owner of Seacoast Helicopters, said he viewed two of the F-35s located in a hangar close to his, and another was on the runway…."

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 14:44
by fang
spazsinbad wrote:First line of 'news' says FOUR whilst Three are described locationwise - so where was the fourth location?

"PORTSMOUTH -- Four of what appeared to be the newest models of the Air Force’s F-35 fighter jets made a stop at the Portsmouth International Airport at Pease on Monday.... Bruce Cultrera, the owner of Seacoast Helicopters, said he viewed two of the F-35s located in a hangar close to his, and another was on the runway…."

Only three (AS-10,AS-11,AS-12)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 14:52
by steve2267
I marvel at the size and deflection of those rear stabs.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 18:30
by mrbuno
fang wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:First line of 'news' says FOUR whilst Three are described locationwise - so where was the fourth location?

"PORTSMOUTH -- Four of what appeared to be the newest models of the Air Force’s F-35 fighter jets made a stop at the Portsmouth International Airport at Pease on Monday.... Bruce Cultrera, the owner of Seacoast Helicopters, said he viewed two of the F-35s located in a hangar close to his, and another was on the runway…."

Only three (AS-10,AS-11,AS-12)

Is it known which of the three had the IFE?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 19:13
by fang
mrbuno wrote:
fang wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:First line of 'news' says FOUR whilst Three are described locationwise - so where was the fourth location?

"PORTSMOUTH -- Four of what appeared to be the newest models of the Air Force’s F-35 fighter jets made a stop at the Portsmouth International Airport at Pease on Monday.... Bruce Cultrera, the owner of Seacoast Helicopters, said he viewed two of the F-35s located in a hangar close to his, and another was on the runway…."

Only three (AS-10,AS-11,AS-12)

Is it known which of the three had the IFE?

AS-12 Adir 918

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 21:43
by spazsinbad
:devil: Shouldn't it be 911? for EMERGENCIES! :doh: C-5 is for Fire Truck (Keep On Truckin'). :roll:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 21:49
by steve2267
Can anyone describe the purpose of that open panel on the left hand side of the photo Spaz just posted?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 22:02
by SpudmanWP
IIRC the big red connector is for fuel and there are other fueling & diagnostic connections and controls.

It's the same panel that ripped of in Japan while in flight.


Image

Image

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 23:34
by spazsinbad
Can ground crew talk to the pilot through a connection in that panel also? There must be a pic somewhere.....

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 23:49
by SpudmanWP
Once you know what to look for, I found a bunch. This is the best shot of the cable, controller, and connections.

Image

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 00:17
by spazsinbad
Thanks - that is a good one. Looks like he discharges static electricity through the thin wire wot goes to ground out left.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 00:25
by steve2267
So, whaddya think? Another case of in-flight, premature door ejection?

The pilot is kinda glancing over at the panel in the photo, there ain't no re-fueling hose plugged in, nor anyone with comm gear miked up and plugged in...

If that is the case, at least they didn't lose the panel door this time.

Image

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 01:03
by spazsinbad
The first responders talk to pilot to know more - that airfield least familiar with the F-35 most likely although they would have publications to help with 'emergencies' because most likely that airfield is a designated 'emergency airfield' for 'Lantic Xings'. After this talk people with appropriate gear may appear but for now the aircraft is on the ground parked and ain't goin' nowhere fast. Lots more gabbin' phonin' and hoohaa to come methinks. Glad everyone is OK though. Aircraft has a minimal CHOCK of just the nosewheel probably put there by the firemen before the pilot exited. NOICE aren't they.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 01:34
by quicksilver
The open panel is just a maintenance interface panel; it is not designed to withstand air loads. As indicated in the pics, it is manually opened by ground crew using a ‘T’ handle (Hornet guys are very familiar). In one of the pics you can see that there are 11 fasteners on the panel, each simply opened or closed using aforementioned handle.

Inside the panel there are a variety of conduits and controls that allow the maintainers to communicate with the pilot whilst the engine is running or to check, actuate or service different aircraft systems without entering the cockpit — this includes connection of a PMA (portable maintenance aid — i.e. a tough book laptop).

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2018, 07:02
by fang
Fixed and flew away to meet KC-10 from McGuire AFB en route Israel with a weekend stop in Lajes.
Welcome ceremony schedule to Sunday (June 24th) afternoon in Nevatim AFB.
Together With the new three members (916,917,918) 140FS will have 12 Adir birds out of 24.

Rich Barnett was there to catch the moment
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rbjets/42 ... otostream/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2018, 10:53
by spazsinbad
Three more F-35s delivered to Israel

http://alert5.com/2018/06/25/three-more ... more-69746

3 page PDF attached from FLY MAG No.1 2018 (Scandi Av Mag in English) about ADIR F-35i IOC.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2018, 16:27
by spazsinbad
Why The Israelis Want A Larger, More Modern F-15 Fleet
31 Jul 2018 Arie Egozi

"...Since 2016, Israel has been busy with a deep upgrade of its F-15I (Ra’am). The Raytheon APG-82(V)1 active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar had been selected for the program, but replacement of the old APG-70 radar has not yet taken place. The upgrade also includes structural work and installation of new systems, including a new radar.

The decision to embark on this upgrade program was made two years ago, in spite of the nation’s planned purchase of the Lockheed Martin F-35. An Israeli source says the air force is looking as far ahead as 40 years. “The F-15 has a lot of advantages. It can be equipped with Israeli-developed systems, an upgrade that can be performed on the F-35 to a clear limit,” says the source. Israel regards its F-15 fleet to be the backbone of its attacking capability. As such, it is considering the purchase of additional F-15s....

...The clear tendency in the Israeli Air Force is to first purchase additional new F-15s and only then consider whether to fulfill the original plan of 75 F-35s. In November 2016, the Israeli cabinet approved the purchase of another 17 Lockheed Martin F-35s, for a total 50 of the stealth fighters. Israeli sources say talks continue with the U.S. Defense Department about the potential purchase of 20-25 advanced F-15s...."

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/why-isr ... f-15-fleet

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2018, 18:03
by usnvo
spazsinbad wrote:
Why The Israelis Want A Larger, More Modern F-15 Fleet
31 Jul 2018 Arie Egozi

...As such, it is considering the purchase of additional F-15s....

...The clear tendency in the Israeli Air Force is to first purchase additional new F-15s and only then consider whether to fulfill the original plan of 75 F-35s. In November 2016, the Israeli cabinet approved the purchase of another 17 Lockheed Martin F-35s, for a total 50 of the stealth fighters. Israeli sources say talks continue with the U.S. Defense Department about the potential purchase of 20-25 advanced F-15s...."

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/why-isr ... f-15-fleet


I have to laugh at most of the reporting on this. People tend to hear what they want to hear. "The clear tendency", give me a break. They ordered 50 F-35s and no F-15s (nor did they update them in that time). There was much hoopla over new F-15s and then it turns out the US gave them a bunch of surplus ones.

The Israeli Air Force hasn't decided on anything yet nor has there even been a proposal to the Israeli government, but it is reported like it is a done deal. I guess saying certain parts of the Israeli Air Force are arguing for more F-15s just doesn't have the same ring.

From further in the article, we get this Gem (guess no one told all the F-15 fanboys who are drooling over the possible sale of more F-15Is or the idea of an F-15 2040/F-15X (because sources say the USAF "talked" to Boeing)).

"...We also do not believe there is high probability of sale of a new upgraded version of the F-15 to the U.S. Air Force.”

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2018, 19:39
by steve2267
One of the comments to the that latest wreck of an AvLeak article (is it even an article?) commented that the F-15 is a "bomb truck" whereas the F-35 is not. The ignorance is astounding, yet, I guess, not surprising.

Maybe USAF / USMC / USN / LM need to start flying some bombed up F-35's at the airshows. Maybe fly some of those 7 gee airshow routines with a bunch of stores hanging off the wings. Or a follow-the-leader display wherein the first F-35 is clean, and the second F-35 is dirty.

/smh

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2018, 23:04
by juretrn
steve2267 wrote:One of the comments to the that latest wreck of an AvLeak article (is it even an article?) commented that the F-15 is a "bomb truck" whereas the F-35 is not. The ignorance is astounding, yet, I guess, not surprising.

Maybe USAF / USMC / USN / LM need to start flying some bombed up F-35's at the airshows. Maybe fly some of those 7 gee airshow routines with a bunch of stores hanging off the wings. Or a follow-the-leader display wherein the first F-35 is clean, and the second F-35 is dirty.

/smh

Yeah, well, that destroys the F-35s stealth, and then it's useless. Therefore, the F-35 is bad, AND IT NEEDS TO BE BAD BECAUSE HOW ELSE ARE WE GOING TO SELL OUR OLD UPGRADED 4TH GENS AND OH GOD PLEASE MAKE THE F-35 GO AWAY

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 03 Aug 2018, 01:23
by fbw
These articles forget two critical facts:
1. The indigenous defense industry has a vested interest in more F-15’s. Which would Elbit and IAI rather the IAF buy? An aircraft that they have avionics and weapons integrated, or one that has limited opportunities for Israeli sourced equipment.

2. Israel wanted more F-15’s for years. They’ve been grabbing retired F-15B. Obviously they see a niche for their operational requirements outside of the F-35. Ironically, so does the USAF as they have no intention of retiring their F-15E till post 2035.


.....
But of course to the defense journalists, that is not a story, has to be some perceived failing of the F-35.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 03 Aug 2018, 03:14
by SpudmanWP
Don't forget that recent requests for new F-15s have been contingent on upgrading their current F-15Is to the new standard, and on the US aide dime. This will likely turn out to be the same.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2018, 10:38
by spazsinbad
AirForces Monthly Magazine Sep 2018 Photo: Under F-35A ADIR in Burner

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 01:49
by spazsinbad
Israel Keeps Eyes On F-35Bs; Lockheed-Boeing Battle It Out For Fighters, Choppers
10 Sep 2018 Arie Egozi

"...The Lockheed Martin delegation was headed by Orlando Carvalho, the outgoing head of Lockheed’s crucial aeronautics division. He was accompanied by Michele Evans, who will succeed him. Caravalho said F-35A’s that will be ordered starting in 2020 will carry a price tag of $80 million. And he confirmed that the IAF still has “an interest” in the F-35B , the STOVL version....

...So far, Lockheed has delivered 12 F-35 Adirs and three more will be delivered this year. “The IAF is conducting its own F-35 pilot training at Nevatim Air Base – the first F-35 customer outside the U.S. to stand up its own in-country training capability.”...

...In recent deliberations within the IAF’s high command , the leading direction was clear: buy more F-15’s while delaying the purchase of a third F-35 squadron.

The rationale behind this is that, while the F-35 performs best when its stealth characteristics are essential, the need in later phases of combat is for other aircraft with advanced avionics that can operate in conjunction with the F-35 and carry heavy weapons loads."

Source: https://breakingdefense.com/2018/09/isr ... -choppers/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 02:48
by steve2267
spazsinbad wrote:
Israel Keeps Eyes On F-35Bs; Lockheed-Boeing Battle It Out For Fighters, Choppers
10 Sep 2018 Arie Egozi

<snip>

The rationale behind this is that, while the F-35 performs best when its stealth characteristics are essential, the need in later phases of combat is for other aircraft with advanced avionics that can operate in conjunction with the F-35 and carry heavy weapons loads."

Source: https://breakingdefense.com/2018/09/isr ... -choppers/


F-35's with external racks carry beaucou bombs and have advanced avionics. I hear they will only cost $80M when ordered in a couple years. How much are these mythical Boing F-15SD's going for?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 05:57
by Corsair1963
Honestly, I don't believe Israel is serious about acquiring any new F-15 Eagles. First, because why would it want to spend more to get less??? Second, I've seen no pressure from the US on Israel to acquire F-15's instead of F-35's. In order to keep the Saint Louis Production Line open...


So, what's the case to be made???

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 11:26
by element1loop
By Arie Egozi

The rationale behind this is that, while the F-35 performs best when its stealth characteristics are essential, the need in later phases of combat is for other aircraft with advanced avionics that can operate in conjunction with the F-35 and carry heavy weapons loads."
:roll:

What a crock that is.

Have a look at the respective payloads and the pylons on each, and which one has to carry its fuel externally on those pylons,and which one will be able to carry two 5,000 lb weapons simultaneously, and then inspect the Block-4 weapons list, 'Arie'.

If there's a weakling here it's the Eagle not the F-35A.

Numpty time.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 13:34
by sferrin
element1loop wrote:By Arie Egozi

The rationale behind this is that, while the F-35 performs best when its stealth characteristics are essential, the need in later phases of combat is for other aircraft with advanced avionics that can operate in conjunction with the F-35 and carry heavy weapons loads."
:roll:

What a crock that is.

Have a look at the respective payloads and the pylons on each, and which one has to carry its fuel externally on those pylons,and which one will be able to carry two 5,000 lb weapons simultaneously, and then inspect the Block-4 weapons list, 'Arie'.

If there's a weakling here it's the Eagle not the F-35A.

Numpty time.


The F-35 hasn't been tested (or even mentioned) carrying 5,000lb stores on it's inboard pylons. And if it's carrying a pair there it won't be able to carry any external tanks. It ain't going to get far with a pair of 5,000lb bombs and 18,000lbs of gas. The Eagle can still carry a centerline 600 gallon tank and it's CFTs with a pair of 5,000lb bombs.

120815-f-zz999-036_jpg~original.jpg


Or it could carry 4 2,000lb LGBs, 3 600 gallon tanks, and it's CFTs. An F-35 with 4 2,000 pound LGBs won't be able to carry any external fuel. I take that back. It could carry two internally, two on the middle pylons, and a pair of tanks. And four missiles. A late model Eagle would have 8 missiles. I'm sure Spurtz could figure out which would make it further.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 14:56
by steve2267
I concede... if the Eagle can lug a pair of 5000 lb penetrators farther than the F-35... then I can see Israel using the Lightning to smash down IADS and escort the Eagles into Iran. That makes sense.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 16:15
by ricnunes
sferrin wrote:The F-35 hasn't been tested (or even mentioned) carrying 5,000lb stores on it's inboard pylons. And if it's carrying a pair there it won't be able to carry any external tanks. It ain't going to get far with a pair of 5,000lb bombs and 18,000lbs of gas. The Eagle can still carry a centerline 600 gallon tank and it's CFTs with a pair of 5,000lb bombs.


The F-35, more precisely the F-35A and F-35C have been (officially) mentioned that it can carry 5,000lb stores on its inboard pylon, here:
Image

The image above certainly looks like being 'official'.


However I can concede on your other points such as the F-15 having potentially longer range with 5000lb bombs than the F-35.
Or resuming, what you (and others) are trying to say here is that Israel intends to use their F-15s as some sort of a "poor man's" (please note the quotes) "Strategic Bomber", right?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 16:46
by sferrin
"The F-35 hasn't been tested (or even mentioned) carrying 5,000lb stores on it's inboard pylons. "

I should have been more clear and said, "munitions". I knew they were 5,000lb hardpoints but, to my knowledge, there's never been a plan to put 5,000lb class bombs/missiles there. Hell, I don't think the fuel tank weighs 5,000lbs. (Even the 600 gallon tanks on an F-22 or Eagle don't weigh that much.)

Maybe, if they ever make it into service, hypersonic weapons will fit the bill. They won't be small, or light.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 18:57
by ricnunes
sferrin wrote:"The F-35 hasn't been tested (or even mentioned) carrying 5,000lb stores on it's inboard pylons. "

I should have been more clear and said, "munitions". I knew they were 5,000lb hardpoints but, to my knowledge, there's never been a plan to put 5,000lb class bombs/missiles there. Hell, I don't think the fuel tank weighs 5,000lbs. (Even the 600 gallon tanks on an F-22 or Eagle don't weigh that much.)

Maybe, if they ever make it into service, hypersonic weapons will fit the bill. They won't be small, or light.


I don't see any reason why the a 5,000lb bomb cannot be integrated on those F-35's 5,000lb hardpoints.

IMO, the only reason why no 5,000lb class bombs/missiles have been carried by the F-35 is because and only because no such bomb/munition weren't integrated yet since these have a very low priority regarding the list of weapons to be integrated on the F-35. If you look closely, only a small number of weapons was integrated so far on the F-35 (basically: AMRAAMs, AIM-9X, GBU-12/31/32, Paveway IV and JSOW). Many other weapons will be integrated in the future and I'm sure that if a customer (such as Israel) wishes to integrate such 5,000 bombs/munitions on the F-35 that this could be done, much easier and quicker so with the upcoming UAI.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 19:12
by steve2267
ricnunes wrote:
sferrin wrote:"The F-35 hasn't been tested (or even mentioned) carrying 5,000lb stores on it's inboard pylons. "

I should have been more clear and said, "munitions". I knew they were 5,000lb hardpoints but, to my knowledge, there's never been a plan to put 5,000lb class bombs/missiles there. Hell, I don't think the fuel tank weighs 5,000lbs. (Even the 600 gallon tanks on an F-22 or Eagle don't weigh that much.)

Maybe, if they ever make it into service, hypersonic weapons will fit the bill. They won't be small, or light.


I don't seen any reason why the a 5,000lb bomb cannot be integrated on those F-35's 5,000lb hardpoints.



Separation testing, or at least analysis of separation events? While I doubt there are any issues... it would really ruin a pilot's day if said 5,000 lb munition decided to dock with his aircraft post-release...

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 19:31
by ricnunes
steve2267 wrote:
ricnunes wrote:I don't seen any reason why the a 5,000lb bomb cannot be integrated on those F-35's 5,000lb hardpoints.



Separation testing, or at least analysis of separation events? While I doubt there are any issues... it would really ruin a pilot's day if said 5,000 lb munition decided to dock with his aircraft post-release...


Nothing different from when those 5,000lb bombs were integrated for the first time on the Eagle, is it?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 19:42
by SpudmanWP
Actually, it's a little safer on the F-35 as it uses pneumatic ejectors and the 5k pylons have a slight nose-down cant.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2018, 22:02
by popcorn
HVPW would fit the bill nicely. The Combatant Commanders had requested the AF Labs back in the day to prioritize it's development. It would appear to be ready for transition to a formal DOD program and I think it unlikely that the concept would have lost favor with it's intended users.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ng-412565/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 09:49
by element1loop
My point was more general. It is a bollocks argument to paint the F-35 as incapable of matching the weapon payload or load-out and strike potential of an F-15, so therefore IDF must buy F-15s to get it done. That's crap. A single-engine F-16 replacement that can carry more weapon weight than an F-15E is not something you turn your nose up at.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 09:58
by element1loop
sferrin wrote: It ain't going to get far with a pair of 5,000lb bombs and 18,000lbs of gas. The Eagle can still carry a centerline 600 gallon tank and it's CFTs with a pair of 5,000lb bombs.


As I understood it F-15 carried a single GBU-28 on centerline, not two on wings.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 10:17
by Corsair1963
element1loop wrote:
sferrin wrote: It ain't going to get far with a pair of 5,000lb bombs and 18,000lbs of gas. The Eagle can still carry a centerline 600 gallon tank and it's CFTs with a pair of 5,000lb bombs.


As I understood it F-15 carried a single GBU-28 on centerline, not two on wings.



Regardless, the F-35 would have "far less drag" than the Strike Eagle carrying two 5,000 lbs class bombs. While, it's single P&W F135 is likely "much more fuel efficient" than the formers twin F100's.


In short we have no reason to believe the F-15E Strike Eagle has better range than the F-35A/C with twin 5,000 lbs bombs.

This is supported by comments made by Lt Col Christine Mau who has over 2000hrs in F15E and was first female F35A Pilot. Both quotes from presentation to Smithsonian.

At 1.04.33 when quizzed about CAS role and comparison to A10:

...as far as endurance goes...we’ve got a lot of gas, in fact the legs on the F35 are longer than the legs on an F15E, based on my experience. Internally we carry 18,000lbs of gas on the A model, and we’ve got one engine, it’s pretty impressive.


Plus, comments made by "Lt. Col. David “Chip” Berke, USMC (Ret), former F-22 and F-35B pilot now the Force Management Branch Chief on the Joint Staff J-8, and Lt. Col. Scott “CAP” Gunn, USAF, the commander of the 33rd Operational Support Squadron at Eglin AFB, Fla., discuss the capabilities of the F-35 Lightning II fighter with Defense & Aerospace Report Editor Vago Muradian after the conclusion of a panel discussion on 5th generation combat aircraft sponsored by the Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies at the US Capitol."

Q: "How's the range of the aircraft from an operator perspective?"

CAP: "I think people that say it doesn't have the range are someone that probably looks at a single-engine aircraft and think so it's just an F-16. It aint an F-16.

I fly on a regular basis two training stories worth of training that I would do in an F-15C model with two external tanks on it. So I would go up go out and do one offensive push where we do basically one offensive strike into the area and out and hey I'm bingo I've got to go home on fuel with the F-15C.

In the F-35 I'll go out and do two of those without any problem and one of the things that we found out in the exercise up in Wisconsin, was after we were done firing our weapons after we were done getting everybody into and out of the combat area, if we wanted to go on to keep fighting at that point they would ask us to stick around because of all the sensors we could provide and the data link we could provide to help the 4th gen aircraft who still had missiles on board. We still had fuel and the sensors to be able to provide that information form.

So it's got legs, it's got really long legs."

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 10:25
by spazsinbad
Here is the MURADIAN Berke Gunn Video for Quotes: viewtopic.php?t=52482 OR

USMC & USAF Pilots on Capabilities of F-35 Lightning II Fighter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTgDTC8_PM0


Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 11:21
by spazsinbad
Muradian at his best for sure - what an excellent 18 mins or less spent watching this great interview. Meanhile…. RANGE.

F-35A Range Quote Pilots Berke Gunn + Muradian 10 Nov 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX-rlGDcU9A


Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 16:48
by sferrin
element1loop wrote:
sferrin wrote: It ain't going to get far with a pair of 5,000lb bombs and 18,000lbs of gas. The Eagle can still carry a centerline 600 gallon tank and it's CFTs with a pair of 5,000lb bombs.


As I understood it F-15 carried a single GBU-28 on centerline, not two on wings.



You can see on the picture I posted above that it had a 5,000lb bomb on each inboard pylon. One is being dropped and the other is still on the aircraft on the far side.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 16:52
by sferrin
spazsinbad wrote:Muradian at his best for sure - what an excellent 18 mins or less spent watching this great interview. Meanhile…. RANGE.

F-35A Range Quote Pilots Berke Gunn + Muradian 10 Nov 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX-rlGDcU9A



Sure, but that's an F-15C with both aircraft in air-to-air configuration. How's it match up using an F-15E, with it's CFTs, and a pair of 5,000lb bombs on each aircraft?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 16:52
by steve2267
Within the context of Israel wanting additional F-15's, this desire may very well stem from the need to carry 5,000lb munitions such as the deep penetrating GBU-28.

From the last Weapons Carriage Requirements slide I had downloaded from this forum, the GBU-28 does not appear to be slated for carry by the F-35. So if Israel needs to deliver those somewhere, the F-15 appears to be their ride.

Based on comments by Gunn, Berke, Mau et al, it seems clear that the F-35 has much better legs than the F-15C. However, even if the GBU-28 could be carried by the F-35, and while there does not appear to be any show-stopper preventing the Lightning from being able to do so -- other than dot-your-i-and-cross-your-t's engineering work, it is not clear the F-35 with GBU-28's would have better range than F-15E's hauling one or two GBU-28's with external 600gal tanks. (As I'm editing this post for written clarity... the only thing that causes me pause is... the GBU-28 is quite long: could there by any fitment / separation issues / aero issues with such a long munition extending backwards from the F-35 wing towards the stabilator?)

From what I can tell, an F-15E may be able to haul
  • two GBU-28 on STA 2 & 8 with a 600 gal tank on STA 5 for 27430lbs of gas total --OR--
  • one GBU-28 on STA 5 with two 600 gal tanks on STA 2&8 for 31510lbs of gas total

I have no idea how far a Strike Eagle could deliver that payload, or how it would compare to an F-35 with two GBU-28's on STA 3&9.

But in the context of why Israel may be interested in more F-15s... it may be to lug GBU-28's around Iran...

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 16:57
by SpudmanWP
On of the reasons why Israel has talked about extra F-15s is that the deal will also have to include upgrading all of the existing F-15s to whatever new standard is decided upon.

All of that will be paid for by US aid funds.

If Israel upgraded their own F-15s, they would have to pay for it with hard cash with a little aid money for US based items.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 17:58
by sprstdlyscottsmn
sferrin wrote:Sure, but that's an F-15C with both aircraft in air-to-air configuration. How's it match up using an F-15E, with it's CFTs, and a pair of 5,000lb bombs on each aircraft?

Are you purposefully ignoring LtCol Mau's statement? "the legs on the F35 are longer than the legs on an F15E"

Also, do not think that because the F-15E carries 50% more gas than the F-15C that it has 50% more range. It doesn't. It chugs gas like there is no tomorrow once loaded. The F-15E has a lot of weight on a little wing. It is not an unstable design either. It carries a not insignificant induced/trim drag penalty. Look up the optimum cruise information for both.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 18:07
by steve2267
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
sferrin wrote:Sure, but that's an F-15C with both aircraft in air-to-air configuration. How's it match up using an F-15E, with it's CFTs, and a pair of 5,000lb bombs on each aircraft?

Are you purposefully ignoring LtCol Mau's statement? "the legs on the F35 are longer than the legs on an F15E"

Also, do not think that because the F-15E carries 50% more gas than the F-15C that it has 50% more range. It doesn't. It chugs gas like there is no tomorrow once loaded. The F-15E has a lot of weight on a little wing. It is not an unstable design either. It carries a not insignificant induced/trim drag penalty. Look up the optimum cruise information for both.


Lt Col Mau stated, "In fact, the legs on the F-35 are longer than the legs in an F-15 based on my experience, so...": beginning at time 0:04:



Spurts, if you have reference to Lt Col Mau specifically referring to the family model Mudhen... I'm all ears.

And while I acknowledge the F-15E is going to drink fuel faster than an F-35, 31000lbs of go juice with a GBU-28 on STA 5 may do what the Israeli's need, and they use their F-35s for other things (like keeping the Eagles "safe". :devil: )

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 18:27
by playloud
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
sferrin wrote:Sure, but that's an F-15C with both aircraft in air-to-air configuration. How's it match up using an F-15E, with it's CFTs, and a pair of 5,000lb bombs on each aircraft?

Are you purposefully ignoring LtCol Mau's statement? "the legs on the F35 are longer than the legs on an F15E"

Also, do not think that because the F-15E carries 50% more gas than the F-15C that it has 50% more range. It doesn't. It chugs gas like there is no tomorrow once loaded. The F-15E has a lot of weight on a little wing. It is not an unstable design either. It carries a not insignificant induced/trim drag penalty. Look up the optimum cruise information for both.

I don't know if it's ignoring LtCol Mau's statement so much as it is questioning the configurations her statement applies to.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 19:30
by sprstdlyscottsmn
IIRC LtCol Mau's background is 2k hrs F-15E, so I have no issue believing that if she says F-15 in a comparison she means the one she knows. You're thoughts may differ. That's fine I suppose.

Here's what I can say on the topic of the F-15E vs the F-15C. When identically loaded in terms of what is on the pylons and F-15E weighs 20,000lb more due to increased structural weight, CFT weight, and CFT fuel weight.

Looking at the F-15E-1...

With full CFTs, two wing bags, four AAMs, targeting pods, and a GBU-28 is going to weigh 77,000lbs of take-off with a drag index of 88, Drag area of approximately 17.1 ft^2, wing loading of 126.5, lift loading of 77.1, fuel fraction of 0.38. (assuming 1550lb fuel burned before climb)

Opt cruise is a mere 0.05nm/lbf burned at around 31,000ft. It will take 2,750lb to reach that altitude and 75nm. If we assume 50% of total fuel used to reach the target (after which time there is allowance for AB use etc) then the end of this optimum "I have no threats to react to or avoid" ingress has the F-15E burning ~0.06 (I'm rounding up in the Mudhens favor) at 34,000ft. It cannot efficiently fly higher because it weighs too much. So, with 10,980lb of fuel in cruise burning an average of 0.055 nm/lb this gives a cruise leg of 604nm. Add the Climb section of 75nm for a total optimum range with this load of 679nm.

How would an F-35 do? We don't know and I don't even have an estimated model yet. What we have been told is in the F-35A "If the pilot took off with full fuel 2 amraams and 2 2000lbs bombs flew 590nm and came back with a 10 min weapon deployment time they would land with around 7,000-8,000lbs still in the tank. " So, the F-35 can reach 679nm with two one-ton bombs inside and still have fuel to spare. What if two one-tonners isn't the same as one two-point-five-tonner due to the nature of the target? With a minor increase in weight and a currently unkown increase in drag Stubby could theoretically carry a single GBU-28. How much of that spare gas will it eat? I don't know. It is plausible it could do it. Depends on asymmetry limits.

All we can do at this point is make educated guesses.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 20:53
by sferrin
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
sferrin wrote:Sure, but that's an F-15C with both aircraft in air-to-air configuration. How's it match up using an F-15E, with it's CFTs, and a pair of 5,000lb bombs on each aircraft?

Are you purposefully ignoring LtCol Mau's statement? "the legs on the F35 are longer than the legs on an F15E"


Did not hear her's. :shrug:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 21:05
by sprstdlyscottsmn
sferrin wrote:Did not hear her's. :shrug:

I apologize if I came off as confrontational. About three posts or so up from yours was one with her statement so I assumed you read it.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 21:24
by spazsinbad
I hear "F-15E" in this quote .MP4 attached from Smithsonian 'Views from the Cockpit' video referenced earlier. YMMV alas.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 21:42
by steve2267
spazsinbad wrote:I hear "F-15E" in this quote .MP4 attached from Smithsonian 'Views from the Cockpit' video referenced earlier. YMMV alas.


This 17-second video clip is a portion from the longer video clip that Spaz posted eltswhere, and to which I linked above. Before I posted, I listened several times to Col Mau's sentence beginning at 0:04 of the video to which I linked above, and which Spaz highlights here. I swear I did NOT hear "F-15E" so I posted. However, after listening again several times, I concede this point... it sure does sound like "E" rolls off the good Colonel's tongue right after "EphFifteen."

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2018, 23:42
by sprstdlyscottsmn
No worries. We all make mistakes sometimes. The important part is the willingness to take in new data and adjust positions accordingly instead of digging in heels.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 02:15
by element1loop
steve2267 wrote: ... But in the context of why Israel may be interested in more F-15s... it may be to lug GBU-28's around Iran...


From the link Spaz just posted in the thread, "Air Force not considering new F-15 or hybrid F-22/F-35":

Air Force not considering new F-15 or hybrid F-22/F-35, top civilian says

By: Valerie Insinna

12th Sept 2018

“I don’t see a role for an F-15X,” Grant said, adding that the service needs the stealth and advanced battle management capabilities of an F-22 or F-35.

While the Air Force used fourth-generation fighters to suppress enemy air defense capabilities during Desert Storm, adversaries have made advances to their own integrated air defenses that will make it difficult for a plane like the F-15X to penetrate, even after stealth platforms have kicked down the door, Deptula said.

A smart adversary is going to be operating those double-digit surface-to-air missile systems throughout the breadth and depth of the theater, and you’re not going to be able to take them all down in the first 24 hours of a conflict,” he said.


https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... lian-says/

Iran's a long way to go to get shot at by an S300 or lesser with few options at that radius. Burn your fuel dealing with SAMs and you're probably done. If you deliver GBU-28 with F-35A you have very good options.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 04:24
by steve2267
element1loop wrote:
Iran's a long way to go to get shot at by an S300 or lesser with few options at that radius. Burn your fuel dealing with SAMs and you're probably done. If you deliver GBU-28 with F-35A you have very good options.


If the "stories" that Israel is interested in additional F-15s, possibly even more so than additional F-35s, are accurate, I have to wonder why, given that it seems the F-35 beats the F-15 at pretty much everything. So I am merely trying to come up with some reasons why Israel may want F-15s rather than F-35s. The only thing I have come up with thus far is to carry GBU-28s.

Using F-35's for SEAD / DEAD / air-to-air escort of F-15E's (or the Israeli equivalent) so that the F-15's can destroy deeply buried targets using GBU-28s make some sense. While I like the idea of a pair of GBU-28's on a Lightning, I (we) don't know if that has sufficient range for the targets Israel has in mind. In addition, after dropping GBU-28's... unless an F-35 punches off the ejector racks, if that is even possible, the Lightning will be in a decidedly unstealthy configuration after bomb jettison.

IMO, more F-35's for Israel makes the most sense, especially the Killer Bee. But if Israel really does want more F-15's, a GBU-28 bomb truck makes the most sense that I can deduce.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 07:22
by Corsair1963
steve2267 wrote:
element1loop wrote:
Iran's a long way to go to get shot at by an S300 or lesser with few options at that radius. Burn your fuel dealing with SAMs and you're probably done. If you deliver GBU-28 with F-35A you have very good options.


If the "stories" that Israel is interested in additional F-15s, possibly even more so than additional F-35s, are accurate, I have to wonder why, given that it seems the F-35 beats the F-15 at pretty much everything. So I am merely trying to come up with some reasons why Israel may want F-15s rather than F-35s. The only thing I have come up with thus far is to carry GBU-28s.

Using F-35's for SEAD / DEAD / air-to-air escort of F-15E's (or the Israeli equivalent) so that the F-15's can destroy deeply buried targets using GBU-28s make some sense. While I like the idea of a pair of GBU-28's on a Lightning, I (we) don't know if that has sufficient range for the targets Israel has in mind. In addition, after dropping GBU-28's... unless an F-35 punches off the ejector racks, if that is even possible, the Lightning will be in a decidedly unstealthy configuration after bomb jettison.

IMO, more F-35's for Israel makes the most sense, especially the Killer Bee. But if Israel really does want more F-15's, a GBU-28 bomb truck makes the most sense that I can deduce.



Israel is no more interested in the F-15 than the USAF....

Air Force Association

Air Force not considering new F-15 or hybrid F-22/F-35, top civilian says


https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... lian-says/

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 07:56
by kimjongnumbaun
steve2267 wrote:
element1loop wrote:
Iran's a long way to go to get shot at by an S300 or lesser with few options at that radius. Burn your fuel dealing with SAMs and you're probably done. If you deliver GBU-28 with F-35A you have very good options.


If the "stories" that Israel is interested in additional F-15s, possibly even more so than additional F-35s, are accurate, I have to wonder why, given that it seems the F-35 beats the F-15 at pretty much everything. So I am merely trying to come up with some reasons why Israel may want F-15s rather than F-35s. The only thing I have come up with thus far is to carry GBU-28s.

Using F-35's for SEAD / DEAD / air-to-air escort of F-15E's (or the Israeli equivalent) so that the F-15's can destroy deeply buried targets using GBU-28s make some sense. While I like the idea of a pair of GBU-28's on a Lightning, I (we) don't know if that has sufficient range for the targets Israel has in mind. In addition, after dropping GBU-28's... unless an F-35 punches off the ejector racks, if that is even possible, the Lightning will be in a decidedly unstealthy configuration after bomb jettison.

IMO, more F-35's for Israel makes the most sense, especially the Killer Bee. But if Israel really does want more F-15's, a GBU-28 bomb truck makes the most sense that I can deduce.



The story was taken out of context. Israel accepted used F-15s and converted them. They were part of an aid package under Obama in 2015. This was before they even had the F-35 on their soil. The F-15s were free so of course they took them. The police department was happy to "buy" our OH-58Cs for 1 cent each when the army retired them, either as spare aircraft or for spare parts.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2018, 10:09
by element1loop
kimjongnumbaun wrote:The story was taken out of context. Israel accepted used F-15s and converted them. They were part of an aid package under Obama in 2015. This was before they even had the F-35 on their soil. The F-15s were free so of course they took them. The police department was happy to "buy" our OH-58Cs for 1 cent each when the army retired them, either as spare aircraft or for spare parts.


Yeah, that makes more sense, thanks. Just an article repeating the meme.

(no problems Steve)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 19 Oct 2018, 17:24
by hythelday
Russians say S-300 given to SAA will be PMU-2 version.
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... t=&act=url

According to this source Russian technical staff will have finished their work by the end of October and according to previous publications train/advice mission will be over after 3 months. If the plans are followed through with according to the timeline, then open season for Gargoyls starts... 2nd of January.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 20:15
by hythelday
Israeli satellite geodata firm ISI tweets what it believes to be first SAA S-300 installations being set up:

https://twitter.com/imagesatint/status/ ... 9952106496

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2018, 04:47
by noth
Jerusalem Post have an article up about buying 11 billion USD in equipment from Boeing, including a squadron of F-15IA, a squadron of CH-47F to replace a squadron of CH-53s, some V-22s, and KC-46.

More here: https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/A-loo ... IAF-570355

Quite the shopping list.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2018, 22:36
by marsavian
Israel threatens to target Russia-manned S-300s in Syria

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018/11/ ... Syria-S300

“Actions would undoubtedly take place, should [an attack] occur, against the launchers used to attack” the occupied territories or Israeli planes, he said, adding, “I hope greatly that there would be no Russian military specialists [at S-300 sites].”

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2018, 22:43
by hythelday
marsavian wrote:Israel threatens to target Russia-manned S-300s in Syria

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018/11/ ... Syria-S300

“Actions would undoubtedly take place, should [an attack] occur, against the launchers used to attack” the occupied territories or Israeli planes, he said, adding, “I hope greatly that there would be no Russian military specialists [at S-300 sites].”


Avigdor Liberman (MoD) said back in October:

"we did not give up any of our operational needs in Syria" and stated that "just because you don't hear [about Israeli strikes in Syria] that does not mean it didn't happen."


https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Secur ... ent-569378

AFAIK Netanyahu also made similar statements. I think they'll still wait 3 months the Russians said they needed for train & equip mission, after that - it's game on.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2018, 06:52
by Corsair1963
noth wrote:Jerusalem Post have an article up about buying 11 billion USD in equipment from Boeing, including a squadron of F-15IA, a squadron of CH-47F to replace a squadron of CH-53s, some V-22s, and KC-46.

More here: https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/A-loo ... IAF-570355

Quite the shopping list.


Don't count on seeing Israel buy more F-15's than the USAF. Which, has flatly stated they have no interest in more Eagles...

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 09 Nov 2018, 19:54
by chucky2
Israel isn't really paying for them though, we are via Israeli "aid"...so it's not skin off their back if they use our money to buy brand spanking new F-15IA that we tell them they're "buying"...

...it's not like there won't be another multi-$B "aid" package we'll give them for the next round of MIC purchases, they can get more Block 4.something F-35's then...

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 09 Nov 2018, 20:37
by SpudmanWP
IIRC they are also pushing for the US to dev and upgrade current F-15s also.

In light of that I would say that upgrading all of their current F-15s is worth more than a few more F-35s, especially considering that they can always get more F-35s later.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2018, 06:28
by chucky2
Only seeing one article so far, looks like Israel may go with some F-15IA...

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,734 ... 30,00.html

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2018, 07:52
by Corsair1963
chucky2 wrote:Only seeing one article so far, looks like Israel may go with some F-15IA...

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,734 ... 30,00.html




We've heard this for months and also similar remarks about the USAF doing the same. Only for the USAF Secretary to come out a couple a months ago to reject such claims as false. Clearly, stating the USAF had no interest in additional F-15's and was focused on the F-35.


Also, sorry to the Eagle Fans out there. Yet, by the numbers you can't make a case for F-15's over F-35's. As the latter is vastly more capable and even "cheaper". Honestly, only way I could see the IDF/AF acquiring more F-15's. Would be under great pressure to keep the St. Louis Line open. Yet, I've heard nothing along those lines in political circles!

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2018, 07:55
by Corsair1963
SpudmanWP wrote:IIRC they are also pushing for the US to dev and upgrade current F-15s also.

In light of that I would say that upgrading all of their current F-15s is worth more than a few more F-35s, especially considering that they can always get more F-35s later.



USAF is still planning on retiring the F-15C's over the next few years. While, not sounding even to optimistic in regards to the F-15E Strike Eagles long-term. Of course just depends on continued funding for New F-35's???

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2018, 07:58
by spazsinbad
'chucky2' was shy posting some excerpts from above artickle - so here are some... 'Corsair1963' NO ITALICS please?
IAF to supplement F-35 stealth jets with upgraded F-15 IA
In addition to continuing purchasing F-35 multirole stealth fighters, IAF decides to upgrade its dependable F-15 fleet with improved model capable of carrying 13 tons of explosives with advanced avionics.

19 Nov 2018 Alex Fishman

"...The F-15 IA performance, considered to be superior to the older F-15 aircraft—which has been in IAF use since 1998—is what swayed the decision....

...The IAF emphasized that the new F-15 will not completely replace the F-35 stealth fighter, but is intended to reinforce the systems currently in place to enhance the range of capabilities to an optimal position vis-à-vis its missions—from Iran to Gaza.

According to a document presented by the IDF to outgoing Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman recently, the IAF intends to complete the purchase of the third stealth squadron at a lower rate—with up to three planes a year. Once the third squadron is complete, approximately in 10 years time, the IAF will have at least 75 F-35 stealth aircraft at its disposal...."

Source: https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,734 ... 30,00.html

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2018, 08:09
by Corsair1963
spazsinbad wrote:'chucky2' was shy posting some excerpts from above artickle - so here are some... 'Corsair1963' NO ITALICS please?
IAF to supplement F-35 stealth jets with upgraded F-15 IA
In addition to continuing purchasing F-35 multirole stealth fighters, IAF decides to upgrade its dependable F-15 fleet with improved model capable of carrying 13 tons of explosives with advanced avionics.

19 Nov 2018 Alex Fishman

"...The F-15 IA performance, considered to be superior to the older F-15 aircraft—which has been in IAF use since 1998—is what swayed the decision....

...The IAF emphasized that the new F-15 will not completely replace the F-35 stealth fighter, but is intended to reinforce the systems currently in place to enhance the range of capabilities to an optimal position vis-à-vis its missions—from Iran to Gaza.

According to a document presented by the IDF to outgoing Defense Minister Avigdor Lieberman recently, the IAF intends to complete the purchase of the third stealth squadron at a lower rate—with up to three planes a year. Once the third squadron is complete, approximately in 10 years time, the IAF will have at least 75 F-35 stealth aircraft at its disposal...."

Source: https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,734 ... 30,00.html



Here is another one...........


QUOTE:

The document submitted to Lieberman is one of the last to be approved by the outgoing defense minister.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2018, 17:29
by chucky2
Corsair1963 wrote:
chucky2 wrote:Only seeing one article so far, looks like Israel may go with some F-15IA...

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,734 ... 30,00.html




We've heard this for months and also similar remarks about the USAF doing the same. Only for the USAF Secretary to come out a couple a months ago to reject such claims as false. Clearly, stating the USAF had no interest in additional F-15's and was focused on the F-35.


Also, sorry to the Eagle Fans out there. Yet, by the numbers you can't make a case for F-15's over F-35's. As the latter is vastly more capable and even "cheaper". Honestly, only way I could see the IDF/AF acquiring more F-15's. Would be under great pressure to keep the St. Louis Line open. Yet, I've heard nothing along those lines in political circles!


I wasn't making a case for anything (although the Eagle is my favorite so I'm happy to see it continually being modernized and built), just posting something I found (which is only one online source so could be wrong).

Personally I think it's a Corp welfare/jobs program just like the additional F-18's the Navy was able to order. If it was Israel's money, I wouldn't care what they picked. But since we know it's Uncle Sugar's (that Jewish influence come election time is super important for almost every politician after al), we ought to be mandating they buy F-35's with it since we're the ones funding it.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2018, 19:30
by steve2267
With MQ-25 Stingray and T-X trainer work to keep St. Louis busy and Boing in the tactical aircraft game, there should be less impetus to purchase additional F-15s from Boing.

On the other hand, the Eagle is the only aircraft Israel currently possesses with the capability to carry the GBU-28. Using stealthy F-35's as a DEAD / deep strike escort for Eagles to deliver GBU-28's to points eastward is the best reason I can think of for Israel to keep the Eagle around. That and not putting all their air force eggs in one type-basket.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2018, 01:33
by Corsair1963
chucky2 wrote:
I wasn't making a case for anything (although the Eagle is my favorite so I'm happy to see it continually being modernized and built), just posting something I found (which is only one online source so could be wrong).

Personally I think it's a Corp welfare/jobs program just like the additional F-18's the Navy was able to order. If it was Israel's money, I wouldn't care what they picked. But since we know it's Uncle Sugar's (that Jewish influence come election time is super important for almost every politician after al), we ought to be mandating they buy F-35's with it since we're the ones funding it.



Haven't seen one additional source for this ground breaking news.....(i.e. F-15IA for Israel) :shock:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2018, 05:48
by SpudmanWP
Boeing is trying to put together a corp-to-gov sale (ie not FMS) that covers tankers, V-22s, Helos, and the F-15IA... including upgrading the existing F-15Is to the F-15IA std. Since Boeing owns all of the IP involved, the deal seems good for Israel and is quite frankly a desperation move for Boeing.

Since it's not FMS, no solid numbers, details, or timelines have come out.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2018, 09:27
by weasel1962
steve2267 wrote:Within the context of Israel wanting additional F-15's, this desire may very well stem from the need to carry 5,000lb munitions such as the deep penetrating GBU-28.

From the last Weapons Carriage Requirements slide I had downloaded from this forum, the GBU-28 does not appear to be slated for carry by the F-35. So if Israel needs to deliver those somewhere, the F-15 appears to be their ride.

Based on comments by Gunn, Berke, Mau et al, it seems clear that the F-35 has much better legs than the F-15C. However, even if the GBU-28 could be carried by the F-35, and while there does not appear to be any show-stopper preventing the Lightning from being able to do so -- other than dot-your-i-and-cross-your-t's engineering work, it is not clear the F-35 with GBU-28's would have better range than F-15E's hauling one or two GBU-28's with external 600gal tanks. (As I'm editing this post for written clarity... the only thing that causes me pause is... the GBU-28 is quite long: could there by any fitment / separation issues / aero issues with such a long munition extending backwards from the F-35 wing towards the stabilator?)

From what I can tell, an F-15E may be able to haul
  • two GBU-28 on STA 2 & 8 with a 600 gal tank on STA 5 for 27430lbs of gas total --OR--
  • one GBU-28 on STA 5 with two 600 gal tanks on STA 2&8 for 31510lbs of gas total

I have no idea how far a Strike Eagle could deliver that payload, or how it would compare to an F-35 with two GBU-28's on STA 3&9.

But in the context of why Israel may be interested in more F-15s... it may be to lug GBU-28's around Iran...


Looks like 3 GBU-28s on the new F-15s.
http://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingd ... poster.pdf

http://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingd ... raphic.pdf

Good to know IF some of the comments on this forum are accurate (present company excepted) that the F-35s have a unrefuelled combat radius greater than 1,100nm and can do loiter of 1-2 hours at 1,000nm from base since they have longer legs than the F-15...... :bang:

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2018, 10:05
by marauder2048
GBU-28 wouldn't have been particularly useful even against the deeper bunkers Hezbollah dug 15 years ago.

A state with access to modern tunneling and earth moving equipment/materials can readily outdig and
outharden the penetrating capability of a 5,000 lb weapon.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2018, 10:27
by Corsair1963
The F-35's inner most pylons can carry 5,000 lbs class weapons. So, the GBU-28's wouldn't be a problem. This whole idea that the F-15 can carry a heavier payload than the F-35 at greater range. Isn't supported by the facts....


Also, many factors that haven't even been touched on. For example price....no new version of the F-15 Strike Eagle has come under $100 Million. Also, does anybody believe the total cost of ownership of the F-15 with two F100/F110's is cheaper than the F-35 to operate and maintain??? (I don't)


In short the F-35 would be cheaper to own and operate. Being "twenty" times more capable with internal stores. Now with external stores the difference is negligible at best......


As I have said before only way I see Israel acquiring New F-15's. Is under considerable pressure from the US. In order to keep the St Louis Production Line going.....Yet, it hardly has anything to do with merits of the F-15 over the F-35. (laughable)

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2018, 16:55
by chucky2
weasel1962 wrote:
Looks like 3 GBU-28s on the new F-15s.
http://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingd ... poster.pdf

http://www.boeing.com/resources/boeingd ... raphic.pdf

Good to know IF some of the comments on this forum are accurate (present company excepted) that the F-35s have a unrefuelled combat radius greater than 1,100nm and can do loiter of 1-2 hours at 1,000nm from base since they have longer legs than the F-15...... :bang:


That second pdf is interesting for the IRST. They didn't put a pod on there and have the line go to that, they make it look as if the F-15 Advanced has a under nose mounted window solution like F-35 does. Has anyone heard of that before?

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2018, 17:08
by SpudmanWP
Chalk it up to artistic license as the other pdf clearly shows the IRST mounted in the left pylon above the Sniper pod (ie "Tiger Eyes").

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2018, 17:13
by sprstdlyscottsmn
I find the range and loiter figured highly suspect. One, it doesn't mention any loading configuration. Two, it indicates a drastic, and I do mean drastic, improvement over the F-15E, which can only loiter for 3hrs at 150nm with 4 AAMs, CFTs, and wing tanks.

The IRST is in the pylon of the targeting pod.

*Edit* The loiter figure I listed is for retaining the wing tanks throughout the mission. IF we assume they are dropped when empty, then maybe we can get a loiter of 3hrs at 200nm with a light air to air load.

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2018, 16:28
by spazsinbad
IDF: No decision on advanced F-15s as yet
22 Nov 2018 Yaakov Lappin, Tel Aviv and Jeremy Binnie

"Israel has not made a final decision on acquiring a more advanced version of the Boeing F-15 multirole fighter, the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) told Jane's. "All possibilities regarding this issue are under IDF, IAF [Israeli Air Force], and the defence establishment's examination, and their position has yet to be decided," the IDF said in a statement on 20 November.

The Ynet news website reported on 19 November that there had been an official announcement that the IAF would acquire a more advanced version of the fighter called the F-15IA in addition to more Lockheed Martin F-35s, 50 of which have already been ordered.

It indicated that the F-15IA is the Israeli designation for the F-15 Advanced Eagle. A Saudi version called the F-15SA is already in production and Qatar has ordered one called the F-15QA, the main difference between the two being the Qataris have opted for the Large Area Display cockpit made by the Israeli company Elbit.

Ynet said there was initially US opposition to Israel's acquisition of the F-15IA if it resulted in a reduction of Israel's F-35 order. It cited a document approved by Defence Minister Avigdor Lieberman shortly before he resigned on 14 November as saying that the IAF still intends to field three F-35 squadrons, each with 25 aircraft...."

Source: https://www.janes.com/article/84771/idf ... 15s-as-yet

Re: Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2018, 18:14
by jakobs
Israel won't buy any more F-15's until the line is closing for real. That's when they will order them. Until that it will just be talks about it.