Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

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SpudmanWP

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Unread post21 Dec 2017, 18:51

They are probability shopping for a mini-carrier :)
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sunstersun

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Corsair1963

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Unread post29 Jan 2018, 11:07

sunstersun wrote:https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israeli-air-force-leaning-toward-f-15-over-f-35-for-next-acquisition-1.5769565


Israel isn't going to spend more money on new less capable F-15's than buying F-35's....


Yet, we could see them acquire more secondhand F-15C/D's and upgrade them to Israeli Standards. Which, they recently did with some ex-USAF F-15D's.
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popcorn

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 04:29

Surely they are aware of how the F-35 compares in beast mode? So a new F-15i is cheaper than a F-35?


https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/isr ... -1.5769565

Israeli Air Force Leaning Toward Upgraded F-15 Over F-35 for Next Fighter Jet Acquisition

The Israel Air Force is to decide in a few months between purchasing a third squadron of F-35 fighter jets or the F-15I, which, while less advanced, has other advantages.

The acquisition requires the approval of the General Staff and a ministerial committee, but the recommendation of the air force generally carries the day.

IAF Commander Maj. Gen. Amikam Norkin, who reportedly is leaning toward the F-15, is to submit a recommendation in May...

The F-15, though older, has two advantages over the F-35: a longer flight range and the ability to carry larger bombs.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 04:42

Well there is this bit in the above artickle:
"...The F-15I is also cheaper to operate than the F-35. But the plane is currently being upgraded by the manufacturer, Boeing, and its purchase price is expected to rise in any future deal. Thus it [improved F-15] could end up costing the same as the F-35 does next time around...."
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neptune

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 05:02

popcorn wrote: The F-15, though older, has two advantages over the F-35: a longer flight range and the ability to carry larger bombs.


....if they consider the "Lite" as an on-scene C-C/ tactical bomber/ CAP, then perhaps the Eagle is the area strategic bomber??
:?:
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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 05:10

How do they figure it's less expensive to operate?

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The F-35A is $29k
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Corsair1963

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 07:47

popcorn wrote: The F-15, though older, has two advantages over the F-35: a longer flight range and the ability to carry larger bombs.




The F-15 does not have longer range or a heavier bomb load than the F-35 in the "Real World". That is just plain fact and is supported by the numbers and first hand accounts from pilots.

:doh:
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neptune

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 08:49

SpudmanWP wrote:How do they figure it's less expensive to operate?..The F-35A is $29k


....they are $720M (9X$80M-ish) ahead in that the F-15Ds are "free"..

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17 ... d-treasure

"The Israel Air Force is working hard to regenerate and drastically upgrade nine ex-U.S. Air National Guard F-15Ds that previously served with the 173rd Fight Wing in Klamath Falls, Oregon."..."Today, Israel's uniquely configured F-15Ds are among the IAF's most flexible and capable multi-role fighters. "

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/05 ... aled-f-15/

"Meet the Israel Air Force unit that frankensteined a totaled F-15B"..."Orgad estimates the entire project cost less than $1 million, all inclusive of labor and spare parts. "Today, to buy an aircraft like this would cost more than $40 million," he noted. "

...thrifty!
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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 11:25

Corsair1963 wrote:
popcorn wrote: The F-15, though older, has two advantages over the F-35: a longer flight range and the ability to carry larger bombs.




The F-15 does not have longer range or a heavier bomb load than the F-35 in the "Real World". That is just plain fact and is supported by the numbers and first hand accounts from pilots.

:doh:


F-35 did "out-fly" F-15Cs, but F-15Es with CFTs and 3 tanks have quite a bit more fuel e.g. during Operation Wooden Leg Ra'ams flew ~2,200 nm with two refuels, including low level flight (with external ordance, obviously).

I do not think this juxtaposition should be understood as "Israel is buying F-15 instead of F-35s, forever". IAF has option for both planes - perhaps IAF chiefs feel confident that 50 F-35 will get the job done, for now, while they need to revitilize/expand F-15 fleet.
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element1loop

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 12:27

The difference in cost per hour ($11,000 per hr) means that $720 million not spent, could then provide for an attractive 65,450 hours of flight time (hey, these are jews were talking about ... ya gotta haggle! ...).

Plus they hedge, with more than one type ... just in case of Murphy, plus they have a protracted transition phase, like any other force. F-35 can dominate air, and kick door down for eagles.

Not bad at all.
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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 17:25

I imagine an IAF order for a squadron of F-15s rather than F-35s has more to do with delivery date than platform capability. The F-15 production line is about to shut down for lack of orders, so any that are received will go into production almost immediately.

If the IAF put an order in for another squadron of F-35s tomorrow, they'd still be at the end of a very long line. If they are feeling the pressure from events in Syria or Iran today they may not be willing to wait.

From the Haaretz article:
"The argument within the air force apparently isn’t over whether a third F-35 squadron is needed, but over how soon it is needed.

Proponents of the F-15 prefer to postpone buying the third F-35 squadron until near the end of the next decade."
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 17:41

It takes just as long to get an F-15 as an F-35, if not longer.

I think this is tied to "If we can get them for free" rather than pay full price, just like the last surplus F-15Ds.
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stevedapirate

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 18:33

SpudmanWP wrote:It takes just as long to get an F-15 as an F-35, if not longer.


How do you figure?

New orders for F-35s probably won't even go into production for a decade at this point unless the USAF decides to give some of their slots away. Particularly since the IAF already possesses some birds for training and familiarization.

New F-15's are going to be built slower, but I'd assume work would start on them soon to keep the production line operating without gaps.

SpudmanWP wrote:I think this is tied to "If we can get them for free" rather than pay full price, just like the last surplus F-15Ds.


This is a distinct possibility.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post30 Jan 2018, 20:07

If they order "new" F-35s today, then delivery will be in 3 years (1 year of Long Lead items and 2 for production).

There are plenty of slots available.

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