Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

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spazsinbad

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Unread post02 Aug 2018, 16:27

Why The Israelis Want A Larger, More Modern F-15 Fleet
31 Jul 2018 Arie Egozi

"...Since 2016, Israel has been busy with a deep upgrade of its F-15I (Ra’am). The Raytheon APG-82(V)1 active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar had been selected for the program, but replacement of the old APG-70 radar has not yet taken place. The upgrade also includes structural work and installation of new systems, including a new radar.

The decision to embark on this upgrade program was made two years ago, in spite of the nation’s planned purchase of the Lockheed Martin F-35. An Israeli source says the air force is looking as far ahead as 40 years. “The F-15 has a lot of advantages. It can be equipped with Israeli-developed systems, an upgrade that can be performed on the F-35 to a clear limit,” says the source. Israel regards its F-15 fleet to be the backbone of its attacking capability. As such, it is considering the purchase of additional F-15s....

...The clear tendency in the Israeli Air Force is to first purchase additional new F-15s and only then consider whether to fulfill the original plan of 75 F-35s. In November 2016, the Israeli cabinet approved the purchase of another 17 Lockheed Martin F-35s, for a total 50 of the stealth fighters. Israeli sources say talks continue with the U.S. Defense Department about the potential purchase of 20-25 advanced F-15s...."

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/why-isr ... f-15-fleet
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Unread post02 Aug 2018, 18:03

spazsinbad wrote:
Why The Israelis Want A Larger, More Modern F-15 Fleet
31 Jul 2018 Arie Egozi

...As such, it is considering the purchase of additional F-15s....

...The clear tendency in the Israeli Air Force is to first purchase additional new F-15s and only then consider whether to fulfill the original plan of 75 F-35s. In November 2016, the Israeli cabinet approved the purchase of another 17 Lockheed Martin F-35s, for a total 50 of the stealth fighters. Israeli sources say talks continue with the U.S. Defense Department about the potential purchase of 20-25 advanced F-15s...."

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/why-isr ... f-15-fleet


I have to laugh at most of the reporting on this. People tend to hear what they want to hear. "The clear tendency", give me a break. They ordered 50 F-35s and no F-15s (nor did they update them in that time). There was much hoopla over new F-15s and then it turns out the US gave them a bunch of surplus ones.

The Israeli Air Force hasn't decided on anything yet nor has there even been a proposal to the Israeli government, but it is reported like it is a done deal. I guess saying certain parts of the Israeli Air Force are arguing for more F-15s just doesn't have the same ring.

From further in the article, we get this Gem (guess no one told all the F-15 fanboys who are drooling over the possible sale of more F-15Is or the idea of an F-15 2040/F-15X (because sources say the USAF "talked" to Boeing)).

"...We also do not believe there is high probability of sale of a new upgraded version of the F-15 to the U.S. Air Force.”
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steve2267

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Unread post02 Aug 2018, 19:39

One of the comments to the that latest wreck of an AvLeak article (is it even an article?) commented that the F-15 is a "bomb truck" whereas the F-35 is not. The ignorance is astounding, yet, I guess, not surprising.

Maybe USAF / USMC / USN / LM need to start flying some bombed up F-35's at the airshows. Maybe fly some of those 7 gee airshow routines with a bunch of stores hanging off the wings. Or a follow-the-leader display wherein the first F-35 is clean, and the second F-35 is dirty.

/smh
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117 & gob of F-22, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well, then bake. Whaddya get? An F-35.
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Unread post02 Aug 2018, 23:04

steve2267 wrote:One of the comments to the that latest wreck of an AvLeak article (is it even an article?) commented that the F-15 is a "bomb truck" whereas the F-35 is not. The ignorance is astounding, yet, I guess, not surprising.

Maybe USAF / USMC / USN / LM need to start flying some bombed up F-35's at the airshows. Maybe fly some of those 7 gee airshow routines with a bunch of stores hanging off the wings. Or a follow-the-leader display wherein the first F-35 is clean, and the second F-35 is dirty.

/smh

Yeah, well, that destroys the F-35s stealth, and then it's useless. Therefore, the F-35 is bad, AND IT NEEDS TO BE BAD BECAUSE HOW ELSE ARE WE GOING TO SELL OUR OLD UPGRADED 4TH GENS AND OH GOD PLEASE MAKE THE F-35 GO AWAY
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Unread post03 Aug 2018, 01:23

These articles forget two critical facts:
1. The indigenous defense industry has a vested interest in more F-15’s. Which would Elbit and IAI rather the IAF buy? An aircraft that they have avionics and weapons integrated, or one that has limited opportunities for Israeli sourced equipment.

2. Israel wanted more F-15’s for years. They’ve been grabbing retired F-15B. Obviously they see a niche for their operational requirements outside of the F-35. Ironically, so does the USAF as they have no intention of retiring their F-15E till post 2035.


.....
But of course to the defense journalists, that is not a story, has to be some perceived failing of the F-35.
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Unread post03 Aug 2018, 03:14

Don't forget that recent requests for new F-15s have been contingent on upgrading their current F-15Is to the new standard, and on the US aide dime. This will likely turn out to be the same.
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Unread post16 Aug 2018, 10:38

AirForces Monthly Magazine Sep 2018 Photo: Under F-35A ADIR in Burner
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F-35AadirUnderBurner.jpg
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Unread post11 Sep 2018, 01:49

Israel Keeps Eyes On F-35Bs; Lockheed-Boeing Battle It Out For Fighters, Choppers
10 Sep 2018 Arie Egozi

"...The Lockheed Martin delegation was headed by Orlando Carvalho, the outgoing head of Lockheed’s crucial aeronautics division. He was accompanied by Michele Evans, who will succeed him. Caravalho said F-35A’s that will be ordered starting in 2020 will carry a price tag of $80 million. And he confirmed that the IAF still has “an interest” in the F-35B , the STOVL version....

...So far, Lockheed has delivered 12 F-35 Adirs and three more will be delivered this year. “The IAF is conducting its own F-35 pilot training at Nevatim Air Base – the first F-35 customer outside the U.S. to stand up its own in-country training capability.”...

...In recent deliberations within the IAF’s high command , the leading direction was clear: buy more F-15’s while delaying the purchase of a third F-35 squadron.

The rationale behind this is that, while the F-35 performs best when its stealth characteristics are essential, the need in later phases of combat is for other aircraft with advanced avionics that can operate in conjunction with the F-35 and carry heavy weapons loads."

Source: https://breakingdefense.com/2018/09/isr ... -choppers/
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Unread post11 Sep 2018, 02:48

spazsinbad wrote:
Israel Keeps Eyes On F-35Bs; Lockheed-Boeing Battle It Out For Fighters, Choppers
10 Sep 2018 Arie Egozi

<snip>

The rationale behind this is that, while the F-35 performs best when its stealth characteristics are essential, the need in later phases of combat is for other aircraft with advanced avionics that can operate in conjunction with the F-35 and carry heavy weapons loads."

Source: https://breakingdefense.com/2018/09/isr ... -choppers/


F-35's with external racks carry beaucou bombs and have advanced avionics. I hear they will only cost $80M when ordered in a couple years. How much are these mythical Boing F-15SD's going for?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117 & gob of F-22, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well, then bake. Whaddya get? An F-35.
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Unread post11 Sep 2018, 05:57

Honestly, I don't believe Israel is serious about acquiring any new F-15 Eagles. First, because why would it want to spend more to get less??? Second, I've seen no pressure from the US on Israel to acquire F-15's instead of F-35's. In order to keep the Saint Louis Production Line open...


So, what's the case to be made???
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element1loop

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Unread post11 Sep 2018, 11:26

By Arie Egozi

The rationale behind this is that, while the F-35 performs best when its stealth characteristics are essential, the need in later phases of combat is for other aircraft with advanced avionics that can operate in conjunction with the F-35 and carry heavy weapons loads."
:roll:

What a crock that is.

Have a look at the respective payloads and the pylons on each, and which one has to carry its fuel externally on those pylons,and which one will be able to carry two 5,000 lb weapons simultaneously, and then inspect the Block-4 weapons list, 'Arie'.

If there's a weakling here it's the Eagle not the F-35A.

Numpty time.
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Unread post11 Sep 2018, 13:34

element1loop wrote:By Arie Egozi

The rationale behind this is that, while the F-35 performs best when its stealth characteristics are essential, the need in later phases of combat is for other aircraft with advanced avionics that can operate in conjunction with the F-35 and carry heavy weapons loads."
:roll:

What a crock that is.

Have a look at the respective payloads and the pylons on each, and which one has to carry its fuel externally on those pylons,and which one will be able to carry two 5,000 lb weapons simultaneously, and then inspect the Block-4 weapons list, 'Arie'.

If there's a weakling here it's the Eagle not the F-35A.

Numpty time.


The F-35 hasn't been tested (or even mentioned) carrying 5,000lb stores on it's inboard pylons. And if it's carrying a pair there it won't be able to carry any external tanks. It ain't going to get far with a pair of 5,000lb bombs and 18,000lbs of gas. The Eagle can still carry a centerline 600 gallon tank and it's CFTs with a pair of 5,000lb bombs.

120815-f-zz999-036_jpg~original.jpg


Or it could carry 4 2,000lb LGBs, 3 600 gallon tanks, and it's CFTs. An F-35 with 4 2,000 pound LGBs won't be able to carry any external fuel. I take that back. It could carry two internally, two on the middle pylons, and a pair of tanks. And four missiles. A late model Eagle would have 8 missiles. I'm sure Spurtz could figure out which would make it further.
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steve2267

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Unread post11 Sep 2018, 14:56

I concede... if the Eagle can lug a pair of 5000 lb penetrators farther than the F-35... then I can see Israel using the Lightning to smash down IADS and escort the Eagles into Iran. That makes sense.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117 & gob of F-22, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well, then bake. Whaddya get? An F-35.
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Unread post11 Sep 2018, 16:15

sferrin wrote:The F-35 hasn't been tested (or even mentioned) carrying 5,000lb stores on it's inboard pylons. And if it's carrying a pair there it won't be able to carry any external tanks. It ain't going to get far with a pair of 5,000lb bombs and 18,000lbs of gas. The Eagle can still carry a centerline 600 gallon tank and it's CFTs with a pair of 5,000lb bombs.


The F-35, more precisely the F-35A and F-35C have been (officially) mentioned that it can carry 5,000lb stores on its inboard pylon, here:
Image

The image above certainly looks like being 'official'.


However I can concede on your other points such as the F-15 having potentially longer range with 5000lb bombs than the F-35.
Or resuming, what you (and others) are trying to say here is that Israel intends to use their F-15s as some sort of a "poor man's" (please note the quotes) "Strategic Bomber", right?
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Unread post11 Sep 2018, 16:46

"The F-35 hasn't been tested (or even mentioned) carrying 5,000lb stores on it's inboard pylons. "

I should have been more clear and said, "munitions". I knew they were 5,000lb hardpoints but, to my knowledge, there's never been a plan to put 5,000lb class bombs/missiles there. Hell, I don't think the fuel tank weighs 5,000lbs. (Even the 600 gallon tanks on an F-22 or Eagle don't weigh that much.)

Maybe, if they ever make it into service, hypersonic weapons will fit the bill. They won't be small, or light.
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