Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 13:55
by maus92
There is an article in AWIN (paywall protected) that reports that Norway is considering reducing it F-35 buy as part of an overall restructuring of defense, possibly as a result of the recent decline in oil prices / royalties revenue. The report should surface in mainstream English language press outlets in the next few days.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 15:23
by bring_it_on
Norway has been considered one of the most reliable and consistent international partners in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program, but substantial cuts to its planned 56-aircraft buy are among options in the nation’s current defense planning cycle.
The cuts may be included in the planning guidance that Norway’s chief of defense, Adm. Haakon Bruun-Hanssen, is expected to submit to the defense ministry on Oct. 1. These recommendations will form part of a White Paper to be delivered to Norway’s parliament next spring.

The principal concern is that Norway’s operating budget may not support such a large F-35 fleet. Norwegian national armaments director Morten Tiller confirmed to Aviation Week at the ComDef conference in Washington this week that the F-35 is expected to cost more to operate than the country’s F-16s, although program office director Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan said on the same occasion that the team is working hard to reduce costs and create an efficient worldwide support system.

Norway’s parliament has approved the purchase of 24 F-35s so far. Four aircraft are under contract and two are complete; the first one is to be formally unveiled in Fort Worth later this month before being delivered to the customer and joining a multinational training squadron at Luke AFB in Arizona.

In May, former Norwegian defense chief Sverre Diesen warned in the Aftenposten newspaper that, at current budget levels, the nation could maintain no more than 10-15 operational F-35s, resulting in “Norway’s largest investment scandal.” Other pressures on the defense budget include the renewed focus on operations in the Arctic “high North” region, which is causing priorities to shift toward replacing the air force’s P-3 Orion patrol airplanes and the navy’s six submarines. Norway has pledged to increase its defense spending to 2% of GDP, in common with other nations, but observers see little likelihood of an increase beyond the current 1.5% level.

Norway is also facing the possibility of paying the entire cost of integrating Kongsberg’s Joint Strike Missile on the F-35, Tiller said. Kongsberg teamed with Raytheon on JSM last year and had hoped for U.S. Navy interest in the weapon, which can be carried internally by the F-35A and F-35C. But the Navy’s near-term anti-ship weapon is the Lockheed Martin AGM-158C Long Range Anti-Ship Missile, carried by the Super Hornet. Norway expects the JSM to be part of the Block 4.2 upgrade package, which is close to its final definition stage. U.S. Deputy Defense Secretary Bob Work visited Norway this week and met with Norway’s Secretary of State Oystein Bo.

The Saab Gripen NG was evaluated against the F-35 in Norway in 2008, but the U.S. made strong public and “even more forceful” private statements (according to WikiLeaks documents) in favor of the F-35 and Norway eventually declared that the F-35 was more capable and less costly than the Gripen. However, more recent Swedish and Norwegian budget estimates have shown that the 30-year life-cycle cost of Norway’s 56 F-35s is expected to be three times greater than that of Sweden’s 60 JAS 39Es.

Lockheed Martin and the JSF project office expect more than 250 international sales in the next five years, but only 30 are under contract.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 15:30
by krorvik
This is the official comment on the article from the norwegian program:

http://blogg.regjeringen.no/kampfly/201 ... happening/

The article from Sweetman should be considered speculation at best.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 16:09
by lamoey
The full article from the above link.
Here’s what’s happening with Norway’s F-35s

Publisert av Endre Lunde
11. september 2015

Long-term observer of the F-35, Bill Sweetman today published an article in Aviation Week stating that «Norway considers F-35 Order Cuts» and we wanted to provide a little more context to his article.

Last year our Minister of Defence, Ms. Ine Eriksen Søreide, initiated a new defence review process here in Norway, and as a result, on 1. October 2014, the Minister tasked the Chief of Defence, Admiral Haakon Bruun-Hanssen with providing what can best be translated as a «Formal Military Advice» to the Ministry that would inform a subsequent Long-Term Plan/White Paper, expected in 2016. The advice commissioned by the Minister is to be delivered on 1. October 2015, one year after it started, and will include a broad and detailed review of the entirety of the Armed Forces – including our future Combat Aircraft arm. Any review which did not include this capability, which will be central to our future Armed Forces, would of course be incomplete. Until the formal military advice becomes public, we will not be able to comment on its contents, but it goes without saying that the Armed Forces, as part of their work, have looked at any number of scenarios and options, and we would be very surprised if they had not also considered the F-35 among them. This is a completely normal process, carried out at regular intervals, and one that is mirrored in most other countries.

In terms of the additional cost for operating the future F-35-fleet compared to today’s F-16-fleet it is important to know that this is something we have been aware of for quite some time, and which has already been taken into account in our planning processes. It was also part of the information presented to Parliament when they approved the procurement phase of the F-35 as part of the current Long Term Plan in 2012.

Finally, regarding the JSM, we have already allowed for the cost of Norway having to pay for the full development and integration of the missile on the F-35 (as described in this article from last year). The Norwegian Parliament passed a bill to that effect in June 2014. The reason why we are willing to do so is quite simple – the missile is essential to our ability to deter any adversary from the use of force against Norway. In combination with the F-35, the missile offers even a smaller nation like Norway the ability to strike even well defended targets at range, a capability that we have never had before. And while it is true that no other partner has joined us yet in the development and integration of the JSM on the F-35, it is clear that this kind of capability is of interest to several nations, including Australia, which has already agreed to look for ways to support its development.

(PS: just to clarify, we are planning to buy 52 aircraft, and we have received authority to begin procurement of 22 of them.)


In essence it is the usual BS and Manus backwash, trying to make a story out of nothing. I have seen no change in political will to maintain a strong air force in Norway. It's rather the opposite. With Norway's former PM Jens Stoltenberg as General Secretary of Nato, Norway is keen to show that we support Nato and its commitments to increase defense budgets. Does BS really think that the good admiral has not noticed the increased Russian activity in the north, and that he want's to reduce the number of his most potent defense against that threat? The Admiral may even ask for more, not less.

Of course BS can't write anything about the F-35 without mentioning his "6 generation" Gripen.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 16:36
by guy@rdaf.dk
BS = Bill Sweetman = Bull Sh..

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 17:16
by spazsinbad
Thanks for all the updates to the 'maus92' mystery post by BS guys. I thought Oz had agreed to help Norway with JSM? The JSM threads will know....

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 20:22
by borg
BS is doing his work allright.

But there is a few point of concern here.

The piece that Sverry Diesen wrote is totaly true, about Norway's current defence funding.
Even if Norway have a parlament approval to buy 22 F-35, lots of Things can unfold a few years Ahead.

Like if Norway does not get in incremental defence increase for 2015/16 defence Budget.

There are other procurment plans on the Norwegian defence ministry table, a new Upgrade to the Leo MBT, New CV-90 or upgrading Current CV-90.
There is New Subs and more expensive weapons system for Norway Navy's.. One and 1/2 operational Frigates(out of five!).. which really show Norways defence spending in a nutShell.
IMO they like to order big toys, but not enough funding to play With them..

So Sverre predicaments of the "15 operational F-35" stands at current Defence structure and Funding.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 20:52
by arrow-nautics
Sigh Maus92. I might be a pro JSF poster but if a legit "F-35 is garbage & should be hauled away as garbage" article ever hit the net - I'd post it.

Will you ever do the opposite? :doh:

Oh well, at least we can thank Maus92 for one thing. If any journalist runs a "F-35 is garbage & should be hauled away as garbage" article, I and others need not search it out or google negative news. Maus92 DELIVERS.

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Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 20:53
by optimist
They still may need the 22 or more, to have 15 operational. Australia has 24 super hornets to have 12 operational. If the definition of operational is the same.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 21:14
by arrow-nautics
I will give maus92 credit & Bill Sweatman credit on one score. Norway might be in the market for 52 F-35s but cutting its order significantly would make me ask one question: Why buy any F-35s at all?

Let the conspiracy theorist chime in - is this the (What has been alledged) manipulative evil LM cornering Norway in to JSF participation?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 22:16
by XanderCrews
maus92 wrote:There is an article in AWIN (paywall protected) that reports that Norway is considering reducing it F-35 buy as part of an overall restructuring of defense, possibly as a result of the recent decline in oil prices / royalties revenue. The report should surface in mainstream English language press outlets in the next few days.


Wow you paid for that?

How does that make you feel?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 22:36
by krorvik
Hehe... I've been lurking around here for a bit, and some of the replies here really confirm my observations.

Let's wait for the official version of that report shall we.

Heck, let's wait for decisions ;-)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 22:38
by XanderCrews
lamoey wrote:
Of course BS can't write anything about the F-35 without mentioning his "6 generation" Gripen.


The gripen ng is a joke. Not one European sale, voted out in Switzerland, after a leaked evaluation showed it was inferior to the legacy F-18.

Poverty airplane for nations that can't afford anything else, and classic underdog of discredited bill sweetman and Gripen fanboys who's love comes from very publicly massaged numbers and PR campaigns.

It lost in Norway because it's inferior to the F-16s they have now. We are supposed to be shocked they picked the F-35?? Not to mention the fact that the Gripen E still hasn't made its first flight and has been rejected by a series of air forces.

In 2008, the Gripen NG was a very immature concept. The demo hadn't even flown. There was a lot of skepticism about its ability to sell (good call eh?) And its numbers (the weight goal for NG was missed by a full 1000 KG)

Norway isn't stupid. Only swedens desire to keep saab going is why it exists at all. You didn't need wiki leaks to figure out the Gripen NG is a Piece of sh*t based on flawed assumptions.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2015, 11:10
by treebeard
I'd like to think the Gripen NG has at least some merits. Saab and Brazil have just finalised a contract that is likely to ensure the development and the production of the program. Brazil may also end up ordering more than the 36 now envisioned. In the end it might just become the favoured F-16-like platform for European states that do not require/cannot afford more capable alternatives like the F-35/Rafale/Eurofighter.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2015, 15:25
by lamoey
treebeard wrote:I'd like to think the Gripen NG has at least some merits. Saab and Brazil have just finalised a contract that is likely to ensure the development and the production of the program. Brazil may also end up ordering more than the 36 now envisioned. In the end it might just become the favoured F-16-like platform for European states that do not require/cannot afford more capable alternatives like the F-35/Rafale/Eurofighter.


Don't they show news about Brazil in the Nederlands? Brazils economy is in the tank, their bonds downgraded to close to junk. So the argument is that one of the worlds richest countries, on a slight decline, can't afford what they have planned, while a country close to bankruptcy may decide to spend even more than planned?

Under the current economical environment SAAB will be very lucky if any money comes out of Brazil.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2015, 16:49
by treebeard
lamoey wrote:
treebeard wrote:I'd like to think the Gripen NG has at least some merits. Saab and Brazil have just finalised a contract that is likely to ensure the development and the production of the program. Brazil may also end up ordering more than the 36 now envisioned. In the end it might just become the favoured F-16-like platform for European states that do not require/cannot afford more capable alternatives like the F-35/Rafale/Eurofighter.


Don't they show news about Brazil in the Nederlands? Brazils economy is in the tank, their bonds downgraded to close to junk. So the argument is that one of the worlds richest countries, on a slight decline, can't afford what they have planned, while a country close to bankruptcy may decide to spend even more than planned?

Under the current economical environment SAAB will be very lucky if any money comes out of Brazil.

Actually, the order for 36 fighters while more were originally envisioned reminds me of the situation of some F-35 purchasers. Even if Brazil won't commit to higher numbers, the initial purchase is enough to replace the now-failed Swiss contract that was meant to secure the development of the Gripen NG program in Sweden. If I remember correctly, the Swedish plan to buy 60 to 80 aircraft was contingent on a foreign partner with whom the Swedish government could share the development and production costs. Without a foreign backer, the program could even be cancelled. Since the Swedes have not yet rescinded on their deal, I think it is too early to label the Gripen NG a joke.

As for the Brazilian economic downturn, what I got from the news is less alarming than what you purport. The Standard & Poor's downgraded rating came as a surprise because it came earlier as expected, especially because Moody's moved to a stable outlook for Brazil only a month ago (-on the brink of a junk rating, mind you). I don't expect a monstrous capital drain just yet, especially when other rating agencies consider the proposed saving measures that will have to bring about a primary budget surplus in 2016. Perhaps it may motivate a reform drive after all...

As for Norway, I only hope that they will end up with the 52 aircraft they plan to buy. I've never taken Bill Sweetman truly serious after reading years of his one-sided analysis and reports.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 14 Sep 2015, 04:22
by Corsair1963
XanderCrews wrote:
lamoey wrote:
Of course BS can't write anything about the F-35 without mentioning his "6 generation" Gripen.


The gripen ng is a joke. Not one European sale, voted out in Switzerland, after a leaked evaluation showed it was inferior to the legacy F-18.

Poverty airplane for nations that can't afford anything else, and classic underdog of discredited bill sweetman and Gripen fanboys who's love comes from very publicly massaged numbers and PR campaigns.

It lost in Norway because it's inferior to the F-16s they have now. We are supposed to be shocked they picked the F-35?? Not to mention the fact that the Gripen E still hasn't made its first flight and has been rejected by a series of air forces.

In 2008, the Gripen NG was a very immature concept. The demo hadn't even flown. There was a lot of skepticism about its ability to sell (good call eh?) And its numbers (the weight goal for NG was missed by a full 1000 KG)

Norway isn't stupid. Only swedens desire to keep saab going is why it exists at all. You didn't need wiki leaks to figure out the Gripen NG is a Piece of sh*t based on flawed assumptions.



62104174.jpg

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 14:01
by XanderCrews
treebeard wrote:
lamoey wrote:
treebeard wrote:I'd like to think the Gripen NG has at least some merits. Saab and Brazil have just finalised a contract that is likely to ensure the development and the production of the program. Brazil may also end up ordering more than the 36 now envisioned. In the end it might just become the favoured F-16-like platform for European states that do not require/cannot afford more capable alternatives like the F-35/Rafale/Eurofighter.


Don't they show news about Brazil in the Nederlands? Brazils economy is in the tank, their bonds downgraded to close to junk. So the argument is that one of the worlds richest countries, on a slight decline, can't afford what they have planned, while a country close to bankruptcy may decide to spend even more than planned?

Under the current economical environment SAAB will be very lucky if any money comes out of Brazil.

Actually, the order for 36 fighters while more were originally envisioned reminds me of the situation of some F-35 purchasers. Even if Brazil won't commit to higher numbers, the initial purchase is enough to replace the now-failed Swiss contract that was meant to secure the development of the Gripen NG program in Sweden. If I remember correctly, the Swedish plan to buy 60 to 80 aircraft was contingent on a foreign partner with whom the Swedish government could share the development and production costs. Without a foreign backer, the program could even be cancelled. Since the Swedes have not yet rescinded on their deal, I think it is too early to label the Gripen NG a joke.

As for the Brazilian economic downturn, what I got from the news is less alarming than what you purport. The Standard & Poor's downgraded rating came as a surprise because it came earlier as expected, especially because Moody's moved to a stable outlook for Brazil only a month ago (-on the brink of a junk rating, mind you). I don't expect a monstrous capital drain just yet, especially when other rating agencies consider the proposed saving measures that will have to bring about a primary budget surplus in 2016. Perhaps it may motivate a reform drive after all...

As for Norway, I only hope that they will end up with the 52 aircraft they plan to buy. I've never taken Bill Sweetman truly serious after reading years of his one-sided analysis and reports.



A part of my opinion comes from being Jaded about the over hype, largely thanks to people like Bill Sweetman. Some of it is Saab Themselves though, who are wildly inflating the numbers on this aircraft. Those numbers are now being taken as the gospel since "saab never lies" which is ridiculous, Saab lies constantly and publish unrealistic numbers online. Then folks wonder why they don't win tenders or competitions, thus inflating their "under dog" status. :roll: Their are accusations of Bribery in Cz Republic, Brazil, and their largest export South Africa was a confirmed bribery scandal.


the F-35 is under a microscope, some of that is for very good reason, some of it not so much. But the fact that Sweetman goes out of his way to promote the Gripen and slam the F-35, basically puts him into "unofficial spokesman" at best, and "propagandist" at worst.

No one is asking why it took Saab so long to get the Gripen NG sold anywhere, why the Swiss found it "3rd best", how it gained 1,000 KG over the goal weight--It weighs as much as an F-16C, with a much smaller engine.
(the "goal weight" is what they based all their brochure numbers on) And there is some cost controversy. And this is before we get into the "Super Cruise" that Saab is marketing-- which is complete and utter Bull$hit but Saab fans believe its the second coming.

I am also curious how they are going to keep the costs low by creating redundant assembly lines that likely won't top 100 aircraft produced each. Its a total fleet that probably won't exceed 250 aircraft produced total. Saab "exported" less than 60 of the legacy gripen total. We also have factors like lots of 2nd hand F-16s coming onto the market. Romania for example opted for some.

People are trying to sell this on par with an F-35, when its basically a 21st century F-5. Treebeard, you are a good poster, and an honest contributor which is why I am willing to outline my theory on the NG.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 18:55
by magitsu
In my opinion Gripen's leading edge has been their willingness for technology transfer.
That might have been bigger reason than publicly speculated political considerations. Convenient excuse to forego the US products just this once?

India would be interested in something similar, but unfortunately they are also building carriers. Can they afford not to buy american when they so badly desire tech transfer/licensed CATOBAR tech in form of EMALS?
Interestingly enough France also operates CATOBAR carriers, so maybe they could also be useful to Indian aims. But the failed Rafale bid forces to make some deduction in this regard.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 19:59
by h-bomb
magitsu wrote: Interestingly enough France also operates CATOBAR carriers, so maybe they could also be useful to Indian aims. But the failed Rafale bid forces to make some deduction in this regard.


FYI They French have modified Nimitz gear for CATOBAR, so India would have to get US tech either way.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 04:46
by XanderCrews
magitsu wrote:In my opinion Gripen's leading edge has been their willingness for technology transfer.
That might have been bigger reason than publicly speculated political considerations. Convenient excuse to forego the US products just this once?



I agree, it's about the industry first and the plane second. As for being mad at the USA, Dassault was fast to point out that there are many US parts in Th3 Gripen NG-- not least of which would be the engine.

Its honestly really tough to know the whole scoop. South American military doesn't really have much defense press coverage, not a lot of insiders etc. So there is the political excuse but IMHO it was just an excuse to pick what they wanted anyway

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 14:05
by lamoey
XanderCrews wrote:
magitsu wrote:In my opinion Gripen's leading edge has been their willingness for technology transfer.
That might have been bigger reason than publicly speculated political considerations. Convenient excuse to forego the US products just this once?



I agree, it's about the industry first and the plane second. As for being mad at the USA, Dassault was fast to point out that there are many US parts in Th3 Gripen NG-- not least of which would be the engine.

Its honestly really tough to know the whole scoop. South American military doesn't really have much defense press coverage, not a lot of insiders etc. So there is the political excuse but IMHO it was just an excuse to pick what they wanted anyway


We will probably never know exactly why Brazil chose Swedish, but I believe Boeing was sent packing when it became public that NSA had been listening in on the Brazilian presidents phone and who knows where else.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 21:51
by treebeard
XanderCrews wrote:A part of my opinion comes from being Jaded about the over hype, largely thanks to people like Bill Sweetman. Some of it is Saab Themselves though, who are wildly inflating the numbers on this aircraft. Those numbers are now being taken as the gospel since "saab never lies" which is ridiculous, Saab lies constantly and publish unrealistic numbers online. Then folks wonder why they don't win tenders or competitions, thus inflating their "under dog" status. :roll: Their are accusations of Bribery in Cz Republic, Brazil, and their largest export South Africa was a confirmed bribery scandal.


the F-35 is under a microscope, some of that is for very good reason, some of it not so much. But the fact that Sweetman goes out of his way to promote the Gripen and slam the F-35, basically puts him into "unofficial spokesman" at best, and "propagandist" at worst.

No one is asking why it took Saab so long to get the Gripen NG sold anywhere, why the Swiss found it "3rd best", how it gained 1,000 KG over the goal weight--It weighs as much as an F-16C, with a much smaller engine.
(the "goal weight" is what they based all their brochure numbers on) And there is some cost controversy. And this is before we get into the "Super Cruise" that Saab is marketing-- which is complete and utter Bull$hit but Saab fans believe its the second coming.

I am also curious how they are going to keep the costs low by creating redundant assembly lines that likely won't top 100 aircraft produced each. Its a total fleet that probably won't exceed 250 aircraft produced total. Saab "exported" less than 60 of the legacy gripen total. We also have factors like lots of 2nd hand F-16s coming onto the market. Romania for example opted for some.

People are trying to sell this on par with an F-35, when its basically a 21st century F-5. Treebeard, you are a good poster, and an honest contributor which is why I am willing to outline my theory on the NG.

I wholeheartedly concur with you. The Gripen E is no suitable alternative to those now looking to acquire the F-35.

I remember SAAB claiming that they could sell the Dutch government 85 Gripen NGs for a fixed price of 4,8 billion euro, with guaranteed industrial compensation orders worth at least 100% of the total Dutch investment costs. The delivery of all 85 aircraft was guaranteed to take place between 2018 and 2023 and the maintenance costs were fixed at 10 billion euro for 30 years. The aircraft, which was yet to be developed, would meet all technical and operational requirements and would serve the RNLAF well into 2050. I believe that offer was first made in 2006, and SAAB repeatedly and publicly (re)proposed in 2008 and/or 2009.

In hindsight, I can't help but grin whenever I think back to that episode. It has become abundantly clear that this offer was 'far from realistic', which is the exact wording the Royal Dutch Air Force used to describe it back in 2006. (I believe the Danish and Norwegian Ministries responded in a similar manner.) Regardless of the doubt expressed by the MoD, the media kept repeating these numbers whenever the JSF program was negatively featured in the news because the words 'fixed contract' managed to create an illusion of a financially secure alternative to the F-35A. In my personal opinion, this media bias was bolstered by the anti-JSF, pro-Gripen cheer-leading by the likes of Bill Sweetman, some of whom were in direct contact with Dutch politicians seated in the House of Representatives. In the end, I think the flawed media reporting put a strain on the complete Dutch F-16 replacement program and is partly to be blamed for the political muddle the whole program turned out to be.

SAAB carries a certain responsibility also, even though their conduct may easily be described as a very effective yet dubious media strategy. I think the Gripen NG may become a suitable platform for the states (e.g. Croatia, Bulgaria, Slovakia) which would be quite happy with a modernised 'F-5'. From their standpoint, I think a procurement of Gripen second-hand C/Ds or new Gripen Es makes more financial sense than second-hand F-16MLUs (given the flight hours these airframes have amassed over time). Whether SAAB will meet their export estimations for their Gripen E remains to be seen, but I do wish them all the best. I do the same for Norway, which I hope will be able to afford more than 22 F-35As. Surely, I have similar feelings for my own country. :wink:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 Sep 2015, 02:27
by spazsinbad
Norway's F-35 Commitment Reportedly Still Firm [I want to know when it was in doubt given all reporting]
22 Sep 2015 Guy Norris | Aviation Week & Space Technology

"FORT WORTH – Leaked details of a Norwegian defense planning document intended to guide government spending in 2016 appear to support continued procurement of the planned full complement of Lockheed Martin F-35s, the first of which was formally rolled out at the manufacturer’s facility here on Sept. 21.

The Royal Norway Air Force is currently slated to take 52 F-35s to replace its aging F-16s, but has so far received government authorization for only the first 22 aircraft. The question of whether Norway will slow down or even cut acquisition of part of the remaining 30 is expected to be debated by the country’s parliament in early 2016. However, leaked details of recommendations that will form part of a defense spending White Paper on the issue indicate the F-35 remains fully supported.

Details published by the Norwegian defense and security website “Never Again” show senior defense officials recommend staying with current plans to make the F-35 fully operational by 2025, and for the aircraft to be “fully integrated” with the Kongsberg Defense Systems-developed Joint Strike Missile (JSM) anti-ship weapon. However, according to the website, the recommendations which will be submitted to the Norwegian defense ministry on Oct. 1, include the cautionary warning that the “phasing in of new combat aircraft will involve a planned reduced operational capability in the transition phase.”

“During this period,” the document says, “the F-16 still accounts for the bulk of the combat aircraft structure. To ensure a minimum level of operational capability in the most critical period (2018 - 2020) the emphasis (will be) on applying enough resources to operate the F-16 while the F-35 is phased in.” The F-16 will continue to provide quick-reaction alert capability up to 2022, even though the F-35 is intended to achieve initial operational capability in 2019. “F-35 system support will be strengthened in order to realize a higher number of flight hours earlier than planned, when needed,” it adds....

...Commenting on the central position of the F-35 in the future force structure, Major Gen. Per Egil Rygg, chief of the Norwegian Air Force, tells Aviation Week the Joint Strike Fighter is “the most important part of that. The aircraft constitutes the change of the entire armed forces of Norway. It impacts how we do business and how we develop concepts of operations.” The recommendations to the defense ministry include retention of the final six aircraft in the planned procurement to take the Norwegian tally to 52.

“When the decision was made [in 2012] there was wide agreement on the number 52 with the reservation that the final six would be dependent on the world situation. I’d say the world situation shows us we need all 52, especially with [the way] things are with our neighbors, some of whom are good and some of whom are not so good.”...

...Norway’s full complement will comprise two full squadrons of 24 F-35As each, in addition to training and development aircraft. The F-35As will be delivered from 2017 to 2024 at the rate of six per year with initial operational capability planned for 2019 and full operational capability scheduled for 2025."

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/norways ... still-firm

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2015, 17:55
by lamoey
The newspaper VG is reporting leaked information about what the Chief of Defense will recommend to the government tomorrow. The list includes the full order of the 52 F-35 previously reported. This assumes that the defense budget does increase according to NATO guidelines. However, should the spending limits stay at todays level, which the Admiral strongly discourages, then a reduction to 42 aircraft may be necessary, as well as cutting the army by 1/4 and removing several navy surface vessels and all submarines.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2015, 18:45
by oldiaf
lamoey wrote:The newspaper VG is reporting leaked information about what the Chief of Defense will recommend to the government tomorrow. The list includes the full order of the 52 F-35 previously reported. This assumes that the defense budget does increase according to NATO guidelines. However, should the spending limits stay at todays level, which the Admiral strongly discourages, then a reduction to 42 aircraft may be necessary, as well as cutting the army by 1/4 and removing several navy surface vessels and all submarines.

Even if reduced by 10 .. Will not lead to death Spiral ... USAF already reduced the numbers previously by 14 ... Waiting for Norway and Canada decisions next month .

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2015, 08:08
by spazsinbad
Norway's Defence Review Underscores F-35 Commitment
05 Oct 2015 Lara Seligman

"Norway's ministry of defence is using a strategic defence review to push for significant funding increases for the country's armed forces, as well as underscore the importance of the F-35 joint strike fighter to the Norwegian Air Force.

Presenting the review last week, Norwegian Chief of Defence Adm. Haakon Bruun-Hanssen reconfirmed Norway's support for the F-35 program, saying he intends to stick to the full 52-aircraft buy. The F-35 provides a number of unique capabilities that no other platform can offer, Bruun-Hanssen said, according to an Oct. 2 statement from the Norwegian F-35 program office.

"We remain dependent on the timely introduction of new capabilities into our armed forces, such as the F-35. Only by completing the acquisition of 52 combat aircraft with the Joint Strike Missile, will we be able to provide the full spectrum capabilities that we need to address our future security challenges," Bruun-Hanssen said.

The review will help inform a new long-term plan for the Norwegian armed forces, which will be introduced to parliament in 2016.

If the funding hike is not approved, Bruun-Hanssen warned of "severe cutbacks" across Norway's military.

F-35 cuts may be considered as part of a "worst case scenario," he said, according to the statement...."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /73410856/

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2015, 13:20
by arrow-nautics
spazsinbad wrote:
Norway's Defence Review Underscores F-35 Commitment


Does this mean Maus92 is the Negative F-35 Result Jinxer? :lol:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Oct 2015, 20:49
by spazsinbad
Yep the NorskWhisperer has done it again.
Norway proposes F-35 funding increase for 2016
13 Oct 2015 Beth Stevenson

"Building on its release of a Strategic Defence Review publication on 1 October, Norway has proposed a 9.8% real-term defence budget increase for 2016. This would see a near doubling of funding for the Lockheed Martin F-35, plus an authorisation request for six more.

Presented by the government on 7 October, the proposed budget will see the F-35 financially bolstered following the Norwegian chief of defence’s commitment to acquiring a planned 52 conventional take-off and landing F-35As.

The 2016 budget proposal includes a request to authorise procurement of an additional six aircraft, for delivery in 2020. The Norwegian parliament has already authorised the procurement of 22 of the 52 F-35s that Norway plans to procure, covering deliveries up to and including 2019.

“The majority of the increase comes from a near doubling of the funding related to the Norwegian acquisition of the F-35, which ensures that the Norwegian procurement of the F-35 will proceed as planned,” the government says.

“The overall priorities in the government’s budget proposal are in line with the recommendations presented by the chief of defence on 1 October in his strategic military review, and helps increase the defence budget’s share of Norway’s GNP to a projected 1.54%.”

The F-35 aircraft acquisition, alongside associated infrastructure – namely the development of its new base at Ørland Main Air Station – has been offered an allocation of NKr8.6 billion ($1.05 billion), from the total NKr49 billion (a rise of NKr4.29 billion from 2015 in real terms) proposal for 2016...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 16-417698/

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Oct 2015, 21:45
by XanderCrews
spazsinbad wrote:Yep the NorskWhisperer has done it again.
Norway proposes F-35 funding increase for 2016
13 Oct 2015 Beth Stevenson

"Building on its release of a Strategic Defence Review publication on 1 October, Norway has proposed a 9.8% real-term defence budget increase for 2016. This would see a near doubling of funding for the Lockheed Martin F-35, plus an authorisation request for six more.

Presented by the government on 7 October, the proposed budget will see the F-35 financially bolstered following the Norwegian chief of defence’s commitment to acquiring a planned 52 conventional take-off and landing F-35As.

The 2016 budget proposal includes a request to authorise procurement of an additional six aircraft, for delivery in 2020. The Norwegian parliament has already authorised the procurement of 22 of the 52 F-35s that Norway plans to procure, covering deliveries up to and including 2019.

“The majority of the increase comes from a near doubling of the funding related to the Norwegian acquisition of the F-35, which ensures that the Norwegian procurement of the F-35 will proceed as planned,” the government says.

“The overall priorities in the government’s budget proposal are in line with the recommendations presented by the chief of defence on 1 October in his strategic military review, and helps increase the defence budget’s share of Norway’s GNP to a projected 1.54%.”

The F-35 aircraft acquisition, alongside associated infrastructure – namely the development of its new base at Ørland Main Air Station – has been offered an allocation of NKr8.6 billion ($1.05 billion), from the total NKr49 billion (a rise of NKr4.29 billion from 2015 in real terms) proposal for 2016...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 16-417698/


Death spiral

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 09 Nov 2015, 05:45
by spazsinbad
Norwegian F-35A 5087 flying photos:

Fantastic air-to-air shots of the first Norwegian F-35 during test flight 08 Nov 2015

http://theaviationist.com/2015/11/08/rn ... ir-to-air/

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 09 Nov 2015, 15:38
by cosmicdwarf
Very nice pictures.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 09 Nov 2015, 22:38
by pron
spazsinbad wrote:Norwegian F-35A 5087 flying photos:

Fantastic air-to-air shots of the first Norwegian F-35 during test flight 08 Nov 2015

http://theaviationist.com/2015/11/08/rn ... ir-to-air/


On the second picture you can see the modification on the rear fuselage for the drag chute system. ( looks like an arrow )
More pictures from the same flight here. https://www.flickr.com/photos/forsvarsdepartementet/21871827753/in/album-72157660372559095/

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2015, 17:42
by krorvik
Norways first F-35 will be arriving @LukeAFB today, the event will be broadcast:

https://twitter.com/Kampfly_no/status/6 ... 12/photo/1

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2015, 17:59
by spazsinbad
JSM news reported here today and here is the last paragraph relevant to this thread also: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=23247&p=308718&hilit=airborne#p308718
JSM carries out airborne launch test
10 Nov 2015 Beth Stevenson

"...Oslo reaffirmed its commitment to the purchase of 52 F-35As during a budget proposal for 2016 that was released in October that would see a near-doubling of funding for the Lockheed Martin F-35, plus an authorisation request for six more to be delivered in 2020. The Norwegian parliament had already authorised the procurement of 22 of the 52 F-35s that Norway plans to procure, covering deliveries up to and including 2019."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... st-418913/

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2015, 19:41
by XanderCrews
spazsinbad wrote:JSM news reported here today and here is the last paragraph relevant to this thread also: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=23247&p=308718&hilit=airborne#p308718
JSM carries out airborne launch test
10 Nov 2015 Beth Stevenson

"...Oslo reaffirmed its commitment to the purchase of 52 F-35As during a budget proposal for 2016 that was released in October that would see a near-doubling of funding for the Lockheed Martin F-35, plus an authorisation request for six more to be delivered in 2020. The Norwegian parliament had already authorised the procurement of 22 of the 52 F-35s that Norway plans to procure, covering deliveries up to and including 2019."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... st-418913/



But, But they are reconsidering! :mrgreen:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2015, 23:41
by spazsinbad
Here we go with a nother norskwegian wood numnuttery:
"...Meanwhile, Canada plans to withdraw from the F-35 program and Norway may follow suit, [in a frickin' BEAR suit and where do bears sit?] and that will increase the cost of each F-35, said Eaglen, who also spoke at the Mitchell Institute." http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/mili ... /75528532/ FROM: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=27533&p=308744&hilit=Mean%2A#p308744

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2015, 23:48
by cosmicdwarf
spazsinbad wrote:Here we go with a nother norskwegian wood numnuttery:
"...Meanwhile, Canada plans to withdraw from the F-35 program and Norway may follow suit, [in a frickin' BEAR suit and where do bears sit?] and that will increase the cost of each F-35, said Eaglen, who also spoke at the Mitchell Institute." http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/mili ... /75528532/ FROM: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=27533&p=308744&hilit=Mean%2A#p308744

...They already got a plane, why would they pull out?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2015, 17:58
by lamoey
Here is the video of Norway's first F-35 arriving at Luke, as well as the first flight for a Norwegian pilot in another F-35.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1030287763660855

Not sure if one has to have a Facebook account to see this, so good luck.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2015, 18:29
by krorvik
cosmicdwarf wrote:...They already got a plane, why would they pull out?


Two actually, and at least ten, possibly 12, are already ordered. So it's too late.. ;). As far as I know, the RNoAF/project has received authorization to order 22 aircraft - and the plan to end at 52 is *very* firm, confirmed by Minister of Defense Søreide.

Even after Sweetman has barked.

Btw, another possibly more accesible video source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZuRbIBUtQ8

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2015, 18:42
by spazsinbad
'commitment' is used seven times in this thread - here is one example from mid-October 2015 about the Norsk FIFTY-TWO:

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=27952&p=305841&hilit=commitment#p305841

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2015, 19:43
by krorvik
Sweetman can't even get a simple number right, all the references I've seen quote him saying 56.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2015, 23:04
by XanderCrews
So who is patient zero on the great "Norway is reducing/leaving" mumbo-jumbo?

this went from "Reconsidering", to "Reducing", to "leaving" amazingly fast. :roll:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2015, 23:11
by spazsinbad

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 19:28
by lamoey

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 19:57
by spazsinbad
Thanks 'lamoey' - another screenshot just as JSM drops - I guess this video will end up on Youtube soon? More info here:

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=23247&p=308868&hilit=bollocks#p308868

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 17 Nov 2015, 20:10
by tritonprime
Published Wed, November 11, 2015

November 10, flew Major Morten Hanche who first Norwegian F-35 at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona. Hanche is an experienced F-16 pilot with over 2,200 flying hours behind him, and has worked with F-35 for years. Here he shares some impressions from the first training session in the F-35.


Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2015, 07:41
by Corsair1963
Norway 1 Canada ZERO :doh:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2015, 22:22
by XanderCrews
Corsair1963 wrote:Norway 1 Canada ZERO :doh:


Don't feel bad. Norway isn't cold like Canada, and they don't need all the special Canadian whatevers to be able to fly

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2015, 11:31
by krorvik
Your right, the worst I've experienced was - 50C. Summer.

Strange how the focus is on ground temperature...

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2015, 13:05
by cosmicdwarf
krorvik wrote:Your right, the worst I've experienced was - 50C. Summer.

Strange how the focus is on ground temperature...

Most people don't understand enough about flying in Canada to understand what goes on.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2015, 13:14
by krorvik
cosmicdwarf wrote:
krorvik wrote:Your right, the worst I've experienced was - 50C. Summer.

Strange how the focus is on ground temperature...

Most people don't understand enough about flying in Canada to understand what goes on.


Norwegians aren't most people... and the one's who understand flying in Norway aren't even most norwegians.

But make no mistake, many norwegians DO know bad weather and the RNoAF certainly knows about and have experience with flightops in adverse conditions.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2015, 13:22
by cosmicdwarf
krorvik wrote:
cosmicdwarf wrote:
krorvik wrote:Your right, the worst I've experienced was - 50C. Summer.

Strange how the focus is on ground temperature...

Most people don't understand enough about flying in Canada to understand what goes on.


Norwegians aren't most people... and the one's who understand flying in Norway aren't even most norwegians.

But make no mistake, many norwegians DO know bad weather and the RNoAF certainly knows about and have experience with flightops in adverse conditions.

Sorry if it wasn't clear. I mean most Canadians don't understand enough about flying, let along flying out of the arctic, to understand what they are talking about.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2015, 13:23
by spazsinbad
:mrgreen: Heheh, I think NavAv pilots have knowledge of adverse conditions when your short runway has SIX Degrees of Freedom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_motions & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degre ... DOF_en.jpg

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2015, 13:24
by krorvik
cosmicdwarf wrote:Sorry if it wasn't clear. I mean most Canadians don't understand enough about flying, let along flying out of the arctic, to understand what they are talking about.


Ahyes, same for norwiggies :)

Heck, I'd think twice before sending quite a few of us out driving at winter....

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2015, 17:28
by krorvik
Maj. Hanche describes his first week flying the F-35 in this post, in english too:

http://blogg.regjeringen.no/kampfly/201 ... orste-uka/

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2015, 17:43
by spazsinbad
Many thanks 'krorvik' - I would be very interested to read any further posts about 'the landing pattern' (see last para).
Flying the F-35 – Experiences from the First Week
20 Nov 2015 Morten Hanche

"
(Ed: On 10 November 2015 the first Norwegian F-35-pilot, Major Morten «Dolby» Hanche flew the F-35 for the first time at Luke Air Force Base. After one week and four flights in the F-35 Major Hanche has summarized his impression of the aircraft so far in this blog post. In order to make his post accessible to a wider audience, we have translated it into English. We have tried to remain as true as possible to Major Hanche’s original text, though some words are difficult to translate directly into English. For instance, the Norwegian word «sprek» which Hanche uses a few time to describe the aircraft, is commonly used to describe a person that is fast, fit and vigorous. Here we have translated it generally as «fast», even though that doesn’t cover the full meaning of the word. Still, we hope the general impression comes through.)"


"I am left with many impressions after a handful of flights with the F-35 over Arizona. In this post, I will try to describe the feeling and perception I have developed flying the F-35 so far.

First things first; the aircraft is easy to handle on the ground. The brakes are direct and powerful yet predictable, and the nose wheel steering is precise. The steering has two «gears» making the process of maneuvering the aircraft in and out of its parking spot under the sun screens that the aircraft are parked under. I hardly noticed the cross winds when I took off for the first time. It was easy to put the nose of the aircraft where I wanted it when I raised it for takeoff. The aircraft was stable in the air from the second it lifted it off the ground, and requires no manual «trimming» on my part.

An odd experience I want to mention is the feeling of bringing up the landing gear. In the F-16 I really don’t notice it that much. In the F-35, however, there is no doubt that the wheels are being retracted. As my American buddy «Nails» said after his first trip: «It felt like someone hit the airplane with a hammer!» A solid and noticeable «CLUNK» tells you that the gear is up. It could possibly have something to do with the fact that the landing gear is quite huge.

With wheels up I quickly noticed another peculiarity with F-35; the aircraft has a kind of continuous quivering sensation. A kind of weak high-frequency tremor. A bit like the feeling you get standing on the top deck of an old car ferry where you can sense a weak vibration from the engine. This trembling is fairly constant until I begin maneuvering the aircraft more aggressively. That increases the force of the trembling until it is like driving a car on a graveled cottage road. This kind of trembling is often referred by the technical term «buffeting».

Buffeting can be a problem if it is too violent. In the T-38 training aircraft I once had an engine instrument (the tachometer) that was shaken out of the instrument panel. That is problematic. Vigorous shaking can also make it difficult to read the instruments in the cockpit, and thus prevent the pilot doing his job. In that case it becomes critical.

A more positive side to buffeting however is that it acts as feedback to the pilot. In modern fighters computers decide which control surfaces are to be moved and how much – «fly-by-wire». That means the pilot misses out on important feedback through the rudder pedals and control stick. How much I move them is not directly linked to what is actually happening with the control surfaces. The F/A-18, for example, moves the ailerons gradually in the opposite direction during heavy maneuvering, without me as a pilot really noticing. The aircraft is however still doing what I am asking it to do. Most Norwegian F-16s have little or no buffeting when maneuvering. That means that in the F-16 I have to use the instruments to get an impression of just much lift I am really demanding from the aircraft. I might be flying fast or slow – maybe dangerous slow – and the only hint I get comes from the gauges. In the F-35 I can physically feel whether I am operating the aircraft in its «good-zone» when maneuvering, or whether I am demanding too much from it and losing energy. I can also physically feel whether I am flying too fast or, worse, if I am flying dangerously slow in the landing pattern.

Critics have argued that the F-35 by definition is a slow aircraft, based on the balance between thrust from the engine and overall weight. However, when interviewed after my first flight, I said that I was impressed with the engine power of the aircraft. How can that be true? Am I bought and paid for by Lockheed Martin, or is it the Ministry of Defence that threatens government reprisals if I don’t provide «the official story»? I know that many have doubts regarding the F-35 when it comes to both maneuverability and engine power.

When I was a kid, my buddy Håkon and I would sometimes play «car trumps». The idea was to do to pull the card with the best car on it. The «best» car was usually the car with A) the most horsepower, or B) the greatest top speed (according to the card). My experience with aircraft so far is that the world is not black or white. «It depends» is an eternal mantra among pilots, and it is usually not easy to measure one system against another. Another point to consider is what data we are actually comparing. The F-16 manual for instance says that the aircraft is capable of going more than twice the speed of sound. I have flown more than 2,000 hours in the F-16 and have never been able to get the aircraft to go that fast. Is it not correct that the F-16 can achieve twice the speed of sound? Are we overstating the facts by claiming that this is the real performance of the aircraft?

I still claim that the F-35 is fast compared to the F-16, an aircraft I know well. Can this be explained as nothing but lies? I believe it can. The F-35 has a huge engine. Another important factor is that the F-35 has low aerodynamic drag, because it carries all the systems and weapons internally. The F-16 is fast and agile when clean, but external stores steals performance. It is never relevant to discuss the performance of a stripped F-16. Therefore, this is never as simple as discussing the ratio of thrust and weight alone.

In any case, technical discussions aside, I was impressed by how steep the F-35 climbed after I did a «touch-and-go» on my first flight. Without using afterburner, and with more fuel on board than the F-16 can carry, I accelerated the aircraft to 300 knots in a continuous climb. Acceleration only stopped when I lifted the nose to more than 25 degrees above the horizon. I do not think our F-16 could have kept up with me without the use of afterburner. I was also impressed with how quickly the F-35 accelerates in afterburner. On my fourth flight I took off using full afterburner. The plane became airborne at 180 knots. At that point I had to immediately bring the engine back to minimum afterburner to avoid overspeed of the landing gear before it was fully retracted (speed limit is 300 knots).

Another first impression is how stable the aircraft is when flying in close formation. I have flown a handful of different fighter aircraft, and I have never had an easier job of maintaining close formation with another aircraft. The F-35 feels stable and predictable when making minor adjustments – much the same feeling I have driving a large American SUV. Still, when I move the stick or the throttle, the handling is both quick and precise (A SUV with a V8 – at least!). Overall, flying the F-35 reminds me a bit of flying the F/A-18 Hornet, but with an important difference: It has been fitted with a turbo.

The final point that I want to mention in this post is the experience of sitting in the cockpit. After reading about poor cooling and high noise levels in the cockpit, I was of course curious. I was pleasantly surprised. The «office space» was cool and comfortable, but above all, I was surprised by how quiet it was compared to what I’m used to. Is comfort important in a fighter jet? I believe it is. Not only during long missions that can last up to 10 hours, but also in daily exercises. It is obvious that a noise-insulated cockpit reduces hearing loss for pilots over time. I would also argue that it improves flight safety because it makes it easier to hear what is being transmitted on the radio and because noise becomes tiresome with time.

I’m saving a little for a later. Just the landing pattern is worth a small post in itself!”

Source: http://blogg.regjeringen.no/kampfly/201 ... orste-uka/

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2015, 17:55
by popcorn
krorvik wrote:Maj. Hanche describes his first week flying the F-35 in this post, in english too:

http://blogg.regjeringen.no/kampfly/201 ... orste-uka/

Thanks, it's always better to read first-hand accounts. Based on Maj. Hanche's feedback, the F-35 has achieved it's design goal in comparing favorably with the Viper and Hornet. Hopefully we get to read more of his experences going forward.

Never heard about the vibration feedback so that's new. I wonder if that was done intentionally? I don't recall any F-22 pilots reporting anything like it.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2015, 17:55
by XanderCrews
That was a really enjoyable read, thank you

8)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2015, 18:01
by cosmicdwarf
Always nice to hear from the people who have experience in the plane.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2015, 18:08
by krorvik
The RNoAF seems to have figured out that it is important to balance some of the information that is available in the news. Very good to see the pilots are talking a bit about their "day in the office".

I'll make sure to post the followup here if lamoey hasn't already, I'm sure he's watching closely (*wave from Kjeller*).

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2015, 18:52
by lamoey
krorvik wrote:I'll make sure to post the followup here if lamoey hasn't already, I'm sure he's watching closely (*wave from Kjeller*).


Thanks for the link Krorvik. Waving back from sunny Houston. I believe I have a few old work colleagues there. I did visit Kjeller once in 1982. Also visited FFI (the Norwegian version of DARPA) on the same day so I may be mixing memory, but my class was present when they turned power on the inertial platform for the penguin missile for the first time. Really cool experience.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2015, 19:07
by krorvik
That's cool indeed, yes FFI is right behind the hill here - getting a bit cold here, but we have some afterburners still heating up the area when our F-16s visit AIM for maintenance.

Will disappear when the F-16's retire though, Kjeller airfield might be retired to. A bit sad, there's a very active small planes club here. Nice airshow every year. Would be nice to get a look at a real F-35 when they arrive back home in a couple of years :)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2015, 00:55
by popcorn
If only the JPO/LM PR people compiled a record of each pilot's first impressions and recollections from their first F-35 ride. Suitably vetted of course. Would make for interesting reading.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2015, 01:20
by spazsinbad
Perhaps a little off topic 'Norsk Order' but perhaps relevant to the PR aspect which Norway seems to be doing so well with HANCHE. I was really disappointed & annoyed by the less than brilliant 'Test Pilot Tuesday' short video series from LM PR.

What a wasted opportunity to have most of the short videos taken up with the beginning fluff and answers to questions that were less than satisfactory often. One day I may edit this series into one meaningful lot but don't wait...

Also the 'English speaking PR' seems to be very obscure - unlike HANCHE, which often is specific and I'll assume being cleared info for release. I can understand this requirement. What really disappoints me is that there is no journalist (other than the regular releases from that 'special source Ayton') that has meaningful narrative about the subject being written.

The best sources and now sadly no longer online was the NavAv aspect from the regular USN LSO Newsletters; whilst the VX-23 is pure gold but only once a year & lately has become less specific - I guess due to security concerns - & that is OK.

Mostly we get journalistic rubbish about how crap the F-35 is and will be with little evidence considering how many are flying and will be flying with various Naval Air Arms & Air Forces. SLDinfo used to try to explain but they seem to have given up and now publish drivel many times over 'shaping and shaping and shaping the coming of the F-35'. For Gorsake. AND Somebody stop them from making their text bob up and down on a web page with their slideshow photos. :roll:

END of RANT and back to our regular programming - the wonderful NorskWegians & whatever they do - much appreciated.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2015, 07:10
by magitsu
Yes, this kind of stories would make it much easier to sell the program to the public in Denmark, Finland, Canada etc.

ATM it seems that only experts and industry are targeted. The general public only in air shows. Saab on the other hand is really active. Or their fanboys. There's Gripen for X facebook pages and blogs for just about every country. Clear twitter supremacy, but Rafale is doing well there too.

Politicians respond to the pressures from the general public. So it can't be left unchecked.

I think it would even come off as more plausible if the Canadian public heard about the F-35 from non-US sources.

Test pilot doing a Reddit AMA might not be a bad idea. The other fighters would need that kind of exposure even more.

Old SLDinfo is indeed a treasure chest.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2015, 08:28
by krorvik
In Norwegian press, it's quite easy to see which sources are fairly balanced and which are not - one of he major newspaper simply ignores the positive pieces on the F-35 (dagbladet). The other major sources actually seem to have gotten the point now.

As for the public tender process here in Norway, it seems to have been doing it's job just fine. Yes, there was a lot of bad press for a while, allegations, slander, the whole works, including "the govt skewed the process on purpose so we can cuddle up to big brother US of A".

Turns out, noone challenged the result in a way that matters (press only gets you so far...). You know, with that much money involved, if there WAS foul play, you'd think someone found a reason somewhere to take it to court. Not a SOUND.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2015, 06:47
by magitsu
spazsinbad wrote:Perhaps a little off topic 'Norsk Order' but perhaps relevant to the PR aspect which Norway seems to be doing so well with HANCHE.


Here the Norsk fighter ace masterfully slays in his own words the earlier F-16 v. F-35 dogfight brouhaha. Actually it's a masterclass in the methodical approach to a dogfight, worthy of a post (thread?) of its own.
http://blogg.regjeringen.no/kampfly/201 ... t-og-f-35/ (translation at the bottom)

Far and away the best account.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2015, 06:56
by spazsinbad
'lamoey' posted the entire English version of the 'dogfightin' Hanche' here on 03 Jul this year:

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=27497&p=294354&hilit=Hanche#p294354

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 24 Nov 2015, 17:31
by krorvik
A couple of updates today from the official blog and twitter:

http://blogg.regjeringen.no/kampfly/201 ... lya-ut-no/

Image

AM-3 and AM-4 moving through assembly. The graphic below shows delivery schedule:

Image
Left legend: "Parliament" - "Order" - "Contract" - "Delivery" - "Operational"

FOC scheduled for 2025, when all aircraft are delivered.

Another interesting item from twitter:

https://twitter.com/FluffyNorwhale/stat ... 9680246788

So, AIM-9X is ordered for Norway at least - and 120C7 will be kept. And of course, APEX and JSM.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2015, 22:34
by cosmicdwarf
http://www.reuters.com/article/lockkhee ... HO20151211

Norway authorizes purchase of 6 more Lockheed F-35 fighter jets

Dec 11 Norway has approved a defense budget that authorizes the purchase of six additional Lockheed Martin Corp F-35 fighter jets for delivery in 2020, Endre Lunde, a spokesman for Norway's F-35 program, said on Friday.

The purchase will bring the total number of jets authorized by Norway to 28, Lunde said.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2015, 00:00
by krorvik
This is according to the plan shown above.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2015, 06:23
by krorvik
First flight for Maj. Hanche in a Norwegian F-35:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1045561745466790

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 22 Jan 2016, 08:13
by spazsinbad
Speculation - I can do that all day - every day.... to what end?
Oil price, weak currency challenge Norwegian F-35 buy
21 Jan 2016 Beth Stevenson

"The low price of oil and a weak currency have led to speculation Norway is questioning its purchase of the costly Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the first example of which was handed over to Oslo in September 2015.

A 52-aircraft requirement for the type, to replace the Royal Norwegian Air Force’s 56 Lockheed F-16A/Bs was seemingly a done deal for Norway last October, as defence chief Adm Haakon Bruun-Hanssen revealed a strategic defence review that committed to the full acquisition. This was followed by a proposed 9.8% real-term defence budget increase for 2016, which would see a near doubling of funding for the conventional take-off and landing F-35A, plus an authorisation request for six more.

But local news sources are now claiming the continued low selling price of oil – a significant income for Norway – has laid pressure on spending, and a weak Krone versus the US dollar has made the price of the already expensive aircraft seem even higher.

The current exchange rate is only $0.15 to every NKr1. Lockheed says the cost of the aircraft is being driven down, with an F-35A purchased in 2018 – that today costs $98 million – and delivered in 2020 costing $85 million, which is the equivalent of $75 million today. This is excluding the Pratt & Whitney F135 engine, which for the Lot 8 buy of the type costs $22 million each, according to figures revealed this month. ????

The F-35 aircraft acquisition, alongside associated infrastructure – namely the development of its new base at Ørland Main Air Station – was offered an allocation of NKr8.6 billion ($1.05 billion) in the proposed 2016 budget, from the total NKr49 billion (a rise of NKr4.29 billion from 2015 in real terms)...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... bu-421084/

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 22 Jan 2016, 12:24
by krorvik
This has also been commented properly by the norwegian program office:

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

( https://www.regjeringen.no/no/tema/fors ... id2469411/ )

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 22 Jan 2016, 15:52
by spazsinbad
Certainly other governments could learn a lot from the way the Norwegian Government explains the complexity or non-complexity of their purchase of the F-35. PDF attached is the English translation as indicated above. BZ Norske. :notworthy:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 24 Sep 2016, 08:56
by spazsinbad
The Guard at NATO’s Northern Gate
With a new force of F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, Norway readies for Europe’s next threat.
Sep 2016 Carl A. Posey | Air & Space Magazine

"...It’s fair to ask how the newer F-35 fares in a scramble. Experts at the Joint Air Power Competence Centre, a NATO “Centre of Excellence” with representatives from 15 member nations, say it’s too soon to tell. The Lightning II has only recently been deemed “Initial Operationally Capable.” But they pointed out that many factors beyond the mechanical abilities of the aircraft play into scramble speed, including the training and experience of the ground crew....

...Lieutenant Colonel Baard Bakke is head of the RNoAF Jet Fighter Project, which has overseen the selection of the Joint Strike Fighter and its complex integration into the Norwegian armed forces. The 46-year-old F-16 pilot has been based at the F-35 Joint Program Office in Arlington, Virginia. The decision to go with the F-35, he says, “was based on capabilities and price…and being in a big partnership.” After looking at performance—at the airplane’s ability to conduct a wide variety of missions in a high-threat environment—the project had no doubt about the selection.

Norway has said it intends to buy 52 F-35As, the type flown by the U.S. Air Force. So far it has purchased 22, with deliveries to begin next year. Bakke believes the country will opt for the full 52....

...By the time all the F-35s are in place, the RNoAF will be a much different armed force. In August 2015, a force reorganization moved most of the 132 Air Wing to Ørland. As the F-16s are phased out, the airport will continue as a civilian hub, but the air station, where so much of Norway’s aeronautical history can be read, will itself become history.

A pair of combat F-35s will stand a Quick Reaction Alert at Eveness, a forward base well to the north. The remaining F-35 fleet will operate from Ørland, which is currently being churned into a major construction site. A large squadron building there will integrate training and simulators. “Everything will happen in one location,” Bakke says. “All the first-level maintenance. We’re building hangars, shelters, a good base to operate from.”..."

Source: http://www.airspacemag.com/military-avi ... 180960362/

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2016, 19:57
by SpudmanWP
Norway Wants 12 More F-35s, Plans Block Buy In 2019

The Norwegian government has requested authorization to buy 12 additional Lockheed Martin F-35s in its 2017 national budget, allowing the country to participate in the last two years of a proposed international block buy....

Under the budget proposal, rolled out Oct. 6, Norway wants to order six more F-35s in Low-Rate Initial Production (LRIP) lot 13 and another six in LRIP 14, Norwegian ministry of defense spokesman Endre Lunde told Aviation Week. If OK’d, this would bring Norway’s number of approved F-35s to 40.

The blueprint would allow Norway to participate in the second and third years of a proposed international block buy, beginning in 2019 and covering lots 13 and 14....

Overall, Norway has committed to buying up to 52 F-35 fighter jets over the next decade. The country is currently using its first four F-35As for pilot training at Luke AFB, Arizona, and is slated to receive six additional jets next year. Three of those aircraft will make the trans-Atlantic journey to Norway at the end of next year, touching down in their home country for the first time.
The additional aircraft proposed for lots 13 and 14 would be delivered in 2021 and 2022.

http://aviationweek.com/awindefense/nor ... k-buy-2019

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2016, 06:27
by endre
spazsinbad wrote:Certainly other governments could learn a lot from the way the Norwegian Government explains the complexity or non-complexity of their purchase of the F-35. PDF attached is the English translation as indicated above. BZ Norske. :notworthy:


Just noticed this one - thanks for that :-)

Btw if you enjoyed that one, you might find this one interesting as well, though I fear you will have to resort to Google Translate. The article describes the process we go through to authorise, order, and then pay for each production series of the F-35. The background for the article is that we have had several here in Norway who have suggested that it is possible to free up significant funds for the Army in the short term by postponing or reducing our next orders for the F-35. This is intended to explain why that isn't possible: https://www.regjeringen.no/no/tema/fors ... id2514952/

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2016, 06:43
by spazsinbad

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2016, 17:33
by XanderCrews
Great news....

Hey where is the OP?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2016, 17:56
by lamoey
endre wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Certainly other governments could learn a lot from the way the Norwegian Government explains the complexity or non-complexity of their purchase of the F-35. PDF attached is the English translation as indicated above. BZ Norske. :notworthy:


Just noticed this one - thanks for that :-)

Btw if you enjoyed that one, you might find this one interesting as well, though I fear you will have to resort to Google Translate. The article describes the process we go through to authorise, order, and then pay for each production series of the F-35. The background for the article is that we have had several here in Norway who have suggested that it is possible to free up significant funds for the Army in the short term by postponing or reducing our next orders for the F-35. This is intended to explain why that isn't possible: https://www.regjeringen.no/no/tema/fors ... id2514952/


Great news!.

Endre, are there any images yet of Norway's fifth F-35, showing the drag chute or its hump on the back of the aircraft?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2016, 06:36
by endre
Not yet, though the first aircraft to carry the "dog house", as we call it, will likely be one of the test jets at Edwards early next year.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 11 Oct 2016, 13:29
by spazsinbad
Norway Officially Wants In On F-35 International Block Buy
11 Oct 2016 Lara Seligman

"Norway has become the first of the F-35 international partner nations to make public its intent to participate in a proposed multiyear, multinational “block buy,” unveiling a budget request for 2017 that includes an additional 12 of the Lockheed Martin fighter jets over the next few years. The government, in its 2017 budget proposal rolled out Oct. 6, requested authorization to order 12 more F-35s in 2019 and 2020, including six in Low-Rate Initial Production (LRIP) lot 13 ..."

Source: http://aviationweek.com/combat-aircraft ... -block-buy

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2016, 05:08
by neptune
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... uy-430271/

Norway AF requests 12 F-35As in proposed block buy

12 October, 2016
BY: Stephen Trimble Washington DC

Norway would buy 12 more Lockheed Martin F-35As for delivery in 2021 and 2022 under a new spending plan submitted to Parliament. The proposal, if approved, would raise the total number of authorized F-35A purchases to 40 aircraft, or only 12 short of the Norwegian air force’s requirement. The requested authorization also would allow Norway to participate in a proposed “block buy” for the F-35’s US and international partners. The F-35 Joint Program Office is working to package purchases of hundreds of F-35s spread over two or three years from 2018 to 2020 into a single order commitment.

In the process, the JPO has to tap dance around US government policies that prohibit a “multi-year procurement” until after a weapons program completes initial operational test and evaluation (IOT&E). The F-35 is not scheduled to complete IOT&E until at least 2018. Unlike a multi-year procurement, a block buy does not lock the US or international partners into firm orders, but it gives Lockheed’s supply chain a long-term view of likely demand.

The JPO hopes to translate that long-term commitment into $2 billion in cost savings over the three-year term.
Norway is the first F-35 customer to request authorization to enter a block buy.

:)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2016, 08:57
by Corsair1963
Honestly, the F-35 will be produced over the next few decades. So, stating any country will only get "X" or "Y" is well laughable. Most customers will eventually get more than originally planned....


If, you want a good example of this. Then check out the initial planned orders for the F-16. Then the total numbers they actually received.....

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Oct 2016, 07:02
by jessmo111
[quote="neptune"]https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/norway-af-requests-12-f-35as-in-proposed-block-buy-430271/

Norway AF requests 12 F-35As in proposed block buy

12 October, 2016
BY: Stephen Trimble Washington DC

Norway would buy 12 more Lockheed Martin F-35As for delivery in 2021 and 2022 under a new spending plan submitted to Parliament. The proposal, if approved, would raise the total number of authorized F-35A purchases to 40 aircraft, or only 12 short of the Norwegian air force’s requirement. The requested authorization also would allow Norway to participate in a proposed “block buy” for the F-35’s US and international partners. The F-35 Joint Program Office is working to package purchases of hundreds of F-35s spread over two or three years from 2018 to 2020 into a single order commitment.

In the process, the JPO has to tap dance around US government policies that prohibit a “multi-year procurement” until after a weapons program completes initial operational test and evaluation (IOT&E). The F-35 is not scheduled to complete IOT&E until at least 2018. Unlike a multi-year procurement, a block buy does not lock the US or international partners into firm orders, but it gives Lockheed’s supply chain a long-term view of likely demand.

The JPO hopes to translate that long-term commitment into $2 billion in cost savings over the three-year term.
Norway is the first F-35 customer to request authorization to enter a block buy.

:)[/quote

Wouldn't it be foolish, for the USAF Not to participate in the block buy? If enough partners get on board, and we will save money, only a fool would not buy in bulk...... ( eyes Sen McCain) O-O.. Your Going to buy he planes if you block buy or don't! why not save the money?... I cant talk politics ATM! Im soo don't with Washington.!

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 17 Oct 2016, 08:48
by spazsinbad
Get some pure oxygen under pressure - youse hyperventilators will need it! US $85 million middle of BLOCK BUY - get out!
Norway May Become First Country with F-35 Block Buy
14 Oct 2016 Brendan McGarry

"Norway’s defense department has asked its parliament to approve funding to purchase a dozen F-35A Joint Strike Fighter jets under a so-called block buy.

As part of its budget request for 2017, the Norwegian military asked for funding to purchase 12 more of the Lockheed Martin Corp.-made stealth fifth-generation fighters beginning in 2019. The government — whose first four F-35s are currently at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona — plans to buy a total of 52 of the aircraft.

If the request for a bulk order is authorized, Norway would become the first F-35 customer to enter into such a contracting arrangement....

...Joe DellaVedova, a spokesman for the F-35 program office, said Norway’s announcement “was expected” and that other allies involved in the acquisition program are considering the contract as part of a plan to buy roughly 450 planes during a three-year period ending in 2020.

“Due to vast economies of scale, all countries will achieve significant reductions on the price of their jets,” he said in a statement to Military.com. “The $80-85 million number often referenced for the cost of an F-35A in 2019 — is right in the middle of the expected block buy.”..."

Source: http://www.dodbuzz.com/2016/10/14/norwa ... block-buy/

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 16 Nov 2016, 15:32
by endre
For those interested - the new Long Term Defense Plan passed Parliament yesterday - F-35 purchase continues as before, full steam ahead!

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2016, 01:41
by spazsinbad
Norway Boosts Defense Budget to Protect Key Programs
17 Nov 2016 Gerard O’Dwyer

"The Norwegian government’s decision to add an additional $230 million to its defense budget for 2017 will secure spending in the Norwegian Defense Forces’s (NDF) Long Term Defense Plan while critically protecting the military's modernization and procurement programs.

The increase will lift the level of Norway’s overall defense budget in 2017 to more than $6 billion. Of this amount, procurement will account for $1.5 billion while infrastructure will consume $370 million....

...The NDF’s acquisition of a new F-35-based fighter fleet will remain a high-priority area of budgetary spending going forward. The MoD is in the process of securing authorization from the national legislature, the Storting, to order a further 12 F-35 combat aircraft out of the planned total of 52 units to be bought.

If approved, the purchase plan would bring the total number of aircraft authorized to 40, enabling Norway to participate in the proposed multinational block-buy initiative
...."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/articles/nor ... y-programs

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2016, 11:40
by krorvik
The long term plan approval also secures P-8s and new submarines, and determines other elements, like closing down Andøya (P-3Cs), and moving surveillance (P-8s) to Evenes. And, as an old border guard, I'm happy to see my old unit being strengthened.

The decision was secured among all the major parties, government Conservative and Progress party, plus the largest leftwing party, Labour.

Contrary to some statements here, there has been NO SWAY in Norway for the F-35 program. All the noise has come from smaller parties, with, in my opinion, a rather weak understanding of military realities (Typical focus has been army, mainland defence first)

Really happy to see this nailed down properly either way.

There is much talk in norwegian news today about the budgetary talks amongs the government parties, and their supporters. The chance of government falling is increasing day by day. This will not move the long term plan though - it only changes who gets to form the budgets - which must also pass parliament. And, the long term plan has strong support there. No need to make fuzz for that. There are never any guarantees, but things are as strong as they need to be.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 25 Nov 2016, 14:58
by krorvik
Norwegian DoD today announced budget requests to acquire 5 P-8s in the period 2021-2022. The order is expected to amount to 10Bn NOK. Source in norwegian:

https://www.regjeringen.no/no/dokumente ... 21433/sec1

Not approved yet, but is expected to pass parliament.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 28 Jan 2017, 00:26
by spazsinbad
As F-35 Comes Online, Norway to Scrap F-16 Fleet
27 Ja 2017 Aaron Mehta

"BODØ AIR STATION, NORWAY – As the Norwegian air force prepares to bring its first three F-35 joint strike fighters to Norwegian soil, the government is taking a simple approach to disposing of its aging F-16 fleet.

Rather than trying to deal with the complicated politics of reselling them or paying the cost of maintaining the older fighters as a reserve, the Ministry of Defense plans to scrap its collection fifty-plus Fighting Falcons, officials said during a visit here January 19.

Defense News visited Norway this month as part of a group organized by the Atlantic Council and funded by the Norwegian government. All participants accepted travel and accommodations during the tour.

The government plans to shut down the 56-plane fleet at the end of 2021, replacing it with a slightly smaller but more capable fleet of 52 F-35A conventional-takeoff-and-landing variants. Norway will take possession of six F-35s in 2017, with three going to Luke Air Force Base in Arizona, which is the US center for training international partners on the Lockheed Martin-designed plane (Norway already has four F-35s at Luke).

Three others are expected to arrive in Norway in early November. From 2018 onward, planes will be delivered directly to Norway, with six new planes arriving each year. Norway plans for the planes to be declared operational in 2019.

The F-16s will still be operated through the end of 2021, although the number of flight hours will drop as the newer jets arrive. Currently the F-16 fleet logs around 7,000 hours per year; that will drop to around 3,000 by 2021, officials here said. Pilots over the age of 40 have been barred from re-training on the F-35, in order to make sure the F-16 has a dedicated pilot core until it is fully retired....

...The military facilities at Bodø, which have housed F-16s since they came into service, will no longer be home to fighter jets. The majority of the F-35 fleet will instead be hosted at Ørland Main Air Station, with a few kept at the more northern Evenes air base to protect the P-8 maritime surveillance fleet...."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/articles/as- ... f-16-fleet

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 28 Jan 2017, 00:37
by rheonomic
I'll take one.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 28 Jan 2017, 15:01
by krorvik
Lara Seligman @ Aviationweek has also been to Ørland, however this is behind their paywall:

http://aviationweek.com/combat-aircraft ... high-north

Hoping for that to become available for free later.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2017, 18:09
by spazsinbad
This article may be seen entirely if one registers for FREE - so please do so - 'becuz I say so' & I'm paid by AVweak for that.
Norway Fears Lockheed Not Ready To Support F-35
27 Jan 2017 Lara Seligman

"OSLO, Norway—As Norway readies to welcome its first F-35s in country in just nine short months, top defense officials here worry Lockheed Martin won’t be ready to support the new fleet.

The nation plans to begin operating the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) almost as soon as it arrives on Norwegian soil in November, according to air force officials. But while Lockheed has proved it can successfully deliver aircraft from the production line, the company has yet to show it will have a reliable system in place to support the aircraft on “day two,” says Maj. Gen. Morten Klever, Norway’s program director for F-35.

Norway has identified a number of “risk areas,” and is currently working with the F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO), Lockheed and engine maker Pratt & Whitney to mitigate those risks, Klever says.

“They will start training for initial operating capability immediately and everything needs to be in place for them to do that,” Klever says. “Is the industry ready to support and sustain the aircraft in Norway? There is a risk right now.”

Lockheed and the partners are setting up roughly 30 F-35 bases internationally between now and 2020, a massive undertaking, Klever says. In particular, Klever is concerned about Lockheed’s ability on day two to provide the necessary spare parts, equipment and support, while at the same time navigating the specific laws and regulations of Norway and eight other partner countries.

“I think Lockheed Martin really needs to step up the work on sustainment,” Klever says. “After all, the partners are expecting a seamless global sustainment solution.”

Chief of the Royal Norwegian Air Force Brig. Gen. Tonje Skinnarland echoes Klever’s concerns, adding that she is keeping a close eye on some “critical deviations” that have emerged recently.

“We are on a very tight plan, a very tight schedule, and everything is linked together,” Skinnarland says. “If we drift off the plan for any reason it will affect our ability to be operational along the path we have.”

Lockheed pushed back on these concerns, pointing to the arrival of the first F-35s in country for the Israeli air force in December 2016 as proof the company will be ready to support Norway’s F-35s. Working with Lockheed, Israel successfully launched a two-ship flight just 16 hr. after the aircraft touched down, company spokesman Mike Rein says.

“In the six weeks since the arrival, the IAF has met or exceeded all of their flying objectives and the aircraft and system remain in a ready state,” Rein says. “We are confident that it will be a similar case when Norway’s F-35s arrive in country for the first time.”

Italy’s F-35s, which arrived at Amendola air base in December, also are flying sorties according to plan with Lockheed’s support, Rein adds. The company expects similar successes at U.S. Naval Air Station Lemoore once F-35C operations begin there.

Meanwhile, the men and women on the ground at Ørland Main Air Station are doing their part to stand up the first Norwegian F-35 squadron. But the transition from F-16 to F-35 is just one piece of a sweeping modernization effort across Norway’s armed forces. As it introduces new equipment like F-35, Boeing’s P-8 maritime patrol aircraft (MPA), and new search-and-rescue (SAR) helicopters, Norway is re-structuring bases across the country to streamline operations in a tight fiscal environment. The government is consolidating the air force organization, recently shuttering the air wing at Bodo that was home to two F-16 squadrons, one of which has now been deactivated in anticipation of the F-35. At the same time, Norway also will close Andoya, currently the main maritime patrol base, once the legacy P-3 MPA fleet is retired.

Ørland will become the nation’s main combat airbase, eventually home to two F-35 squadrons—the historic 332 and 331 squadrons, which flew Spitfires in World War II—advanced air and base defense forces, and an upgraded SAR helicopter detachment. It must also be able to accommodate deployments of allied aircraft, in particular the NATO Airborne Warning and Control System. The new P-8s will be based at Evenes air base north of the Arctic Circle, along with forward-deployed F-35s, to hunt for Russian submarines.

“We need to be more lean and more effective, and use our finances in a better way, but we also have to change our perception to network centric warfare,” [a la RAAF Project Jericho] says Col. Aage Lyder Longva, commander of the 132 Air Wing.

The Norwegian Defense Estate Agency (NDEA) began building the support infrastructure for F-35 at Ørland in May 2015, with the goal of getting the basic equipment in place for operations by the time the first aircraft arrive. The outer shell of the new F-35 facility is already complete; now, Longva is waiting on Lockheed to install the eight simulators and necessary equipment for the Autonomic Logistics and Information System, the maintenance backbone of the new fleet.

To protect the new F-35s from prying eyes, base personnel are building a dirt wall around the outer perimeter, says Olaf Dobloug, chief of combat aircraft base construction with the NDEA. They also are updating and extending the runway by 300 meters, and adding new navigational and lighting systems.

Altogether, Norway has estimated readying both Ørland and Evenes to accommodate new aircraft across the force—including infrastructure modernization and building new facilities—will cost 10 billion kroner, or about $1.3 billion, Longva says. Just over half of that will go exclusively toward supporting the F-35, he notes.

While much of the upgrade is focused on what happens inside base walls, Longva and Olaf also must keep in mind the surrounding area. A significant portion of the funds will go to noise abatement, partially due to stricter environmental regulations recently established by the Norwegian government and local authorities. By law the NDEA must offer to buy the private houses in the “red zone,” where noise from the existing F-16s and future F-35s will be the worst. If the residents choose to stay, the NDEA must install insulation into residents’ walls to protect against the noise.

Norway, Lockheed and the F-35 Joint Program Office clearly have a long way to go to prepare for the arrival of the JSF. But the new aircraft is not just a replacement for the legacy F-16 that Norway currently relies on to be its eyes and ears in the North Atlantic, Skinnarland says. The air force must fundamentally change its thinking to take full advantage of the new, fifth-generation capability.

“We have to be able to utilize the airframe in new ways, not continue in the same ways we have used the F-16,” Skinnarland says. “We have to develop concepts on how to operate, what’s the capabilities and possibilities of the new aircraft.”

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/norway- ... pport-f-35

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2017, 01:47
by zerion
Long article best read there
NORWEGIAN F-35 PILOT: ‘WE ARE ON TRACK

He was the first Royal Norwegian Air Force pilot to fly the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II in November 2015. Since then, he flew the jet for 170 hours, all of those at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona, where he now serves as an instructor pilot. Right now, he and his Royal Norwegian Air Force colleagues begin preparations to ferry three F-35s to Norway later this year. It will be the first outing for the jet in the cold Nordic region. So, plenty of reasons for a chat with Morten ‘Dolby’ Hanche, who says fighting an F-16 in an F-35 is an ‘uneven fight’ – in favor of the new jet.

AHF: Hi! Can you describe your previous flight experience for us?
Hanche: “Most of my previous flight experience was in the F-16, which I flew for more than 2200 hours. I am a graduate from the a US Navy Test Pilot School In Patuxent River. After having flown the F-35 for 170 hours, I can now say I am starting to feel “at home” in the airplane. Combined, the number of flight hours by Norwegian F-35 pilots now stands at 800 hours..."

http://airheadsfly.com/2017/03/27/norwa ... -on-track/

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2017, 11:18
by neptune
zerion wrote:Long article best read there
NORWEGIAN F-35 PILOT: ‘WE ARE ON TRACK

He was the first Royal Norwegian Air Force pilot to fly the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II in November 2015. Since then, he flew the jet for 170 hours, all of those at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona, where he now serves as an instructor pilot. Right now, he and his Royal Norwegian Air Force colleagues begin preparations to ferry three F-35s to Norway later this year. It will be the first outing for the jet in the cold Nordic region. So, plenty of reasons for a chat with Morten ‘Dolby’ Hanche, who says fighting an F-16 in an F-35 is an ‘uneven fight’ – in favor of the new jet.

AHF: Hi! Can you describe your previous flight experience for us?
Hanche: “Most of my previous flight experience was in the F-16, which I flew for more than 2200 hours. I am a graduate from the a US Navy Test Pilot School In Patuxent River. After having flown the F-35 for 170 hours, I can now say I am starting to feel “at home” in the airplane. Combined, the number of flight hours by Norwegian F-35 pilots now stands at 800 hours..."

http://airheadsfly.com/2017/03/27/norwa ... -on-track/

VFMA-121 @ Elmendorf AFB on the way to Iwakuni, kind a chilly, today, 27degF@30% precip....brrrr!
:)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2017, 16:23
by spazsinbad
LM F-35 GM Weekly Update
07 Sep 2017 Jeff Babione

"Team Luke Flies 1000th Norwegian Sortie
In other international news, the Norwegian F-35As at Luke AFB completed their 1000th sortie last week. This is an exciting time for Norway and the F-35 program as they prepare to receive their first in country F-35As this November. Completing 1000 sorties gives Norway confidence in this aircraft as they begin to revolutionize their fleet to F-35As...."

Source: https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a6 ... 9_7_17.pdf (0.2Mb)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2017, 21:06
by krorvik
The norwegian program manager has posted a new post:

http://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampfl ... til-norge/

Translation:

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

Long post made short, three birds are soon ready to leave for Ørland MAB, on schedule.

A nice picture of the nozzle feathers in one shot. Note the perforations on the inside:

Image

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2017, 21:36
by spazsinbad

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2017, 02:11
by rheonomic
IIRC these are Norway's first 3F aircraft?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2017, 19:06
by krorvik
The three to be delivered shortly, and be flown across the pond are 3F, yes. The 7 @Luke AFB are 3i - and face an easy upgrade path when it suits the squadron.

Edit: the previous post at the same blog details this a bit more:

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2017, 19:50
by white_lightning35
spazsinbad wrote:F-135 nozzle feathers ZOOM JPG: http://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampfl ... 0016PR.jpg


Those look like grooves or something on the white part in the nozzle. Perhaps they are there to mix up the exhaust to make the heat dissipate more easily?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2017, 21:20
by krorvik
Something like that. Or simply increasing surface area?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 05 Oct 2017, 01:18
by rheonomic
Either heat transfer or something to shape the flow.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 05 Oct 2017, 16:38
by steve2267
Wouldn't surprise me if they tapped off some of the bypass flow and ducted it through some structure, and are re-injecting that cooler bypass flow back at the "tail feathers". That would seem to decrease temperature (and IR signature) of the structure, while at the same time increasing turbulent mixing of cooler air into the jet exhaust, decreasing the IR signature of the jet exhaust itself.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2017, 14:20
by krorvik
The three birds (5148 - 5150) for the RNoAF are now formally delivered, and are scheduled to land at Ørland MAB thursday nov. 2nd at 1400 CET. As mentioned, these are 3F jets - and will be delivered without the chute and housing - which are already in norway, and will be ready on arrival. Formal ceremony will still be nov 10th, after restenciling and prepping. This is also the RNoAFs 73rd birthday.

Maj. Morten "Dolby" Hanche is onsite @Ørlandet, handling OT&E.

Article:

https://www.tu.no/artikler/f-35-flyene- ... rge/410975

Translated, fairly OK:

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2017, 16:26
by steve2267
Hurrah for the Norsemen!

When is Norway planning on declaring IOC? How many aircraft will be in service there in Norway at that time?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2017, 16:30
by steve2267
Best I could gather from the Google-translated article is late 2019 for Norwegian F-35 IOC. And no weapons carriage until then. Article did not state how many Norwegian F-35s at that time.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2017, 16:34
by hythelday
krorvik wrote:The three birds (5148 - 5150) for the RNoAF are now formally delivered, and are scheduled to land at Ørland MAB thursday nov. 2nd at 1400 CET. As mentioned, these are 3F jets - and will be delivered without the chute and housing - which are already in norway, and will be ready on arrival. Formal ceremony will still be nov 10th, after restenciling and prepping. This is also the RNoAFs 73rd birthday.

Maj. Morten "Dolby" Hanche is onsite @Ørlandet, handling OT&E.



Is there a chance that good Major will throw a nice demo using that 3F g-unrestricted jet in honor of RNoAF?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2017, 17:04
by SpudmanWP
steve2267 wrote:When is Norway planning on declaring IOC? How many aircraft will be in service there in Norway at that time?
3rd qtr 2019

Image

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2017, 17:07
by white_lightning35
Image

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2017, 18:52
by krorvik
Can I use that image for other occasions? ;)

Yes, IOC for 2019. And extremely unlikely that we'll see the RNoAF show off for a while.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2017, 18:56
by steve2267
krorvik wrote:
Yes, IOC for 2019. And extremely unlikely that we'll see the RNoAF show off for a while.


WHAT!?! No sneaking up on Gripens ???? Awwww.....

:bang:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2017, 19:11
by krorvik
steve2267 wrote:Article did not state how many Norwegian F-35s at that time.


Proc plan says 3 this year, 6 for 2018, and 6 for 2019. So my guess is ~ 15@IOC. F-35s will start taking operational missions in 2022, while the vipers will start going to the shredder. Last delivery is in 2024, at which point FOC is reached.

steve2267 wrote:WHAT!?! No sneaking up on Gripens ???? Awwww.....
:bang:


I'm looking forward to seeing the faces on some swedish friends when Northern Ace gets going with F-35s... :devil:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2017, 19:27
by steve2267
I'm not quite sure how the Swedes could pull it off... but if they were smart, at that point they would "borrow" some Finn F-35's, paint them with the Swedish roundel, to try to surprise you Norwegians. Somehow I don't think this is an option. :drool: :mrgreen:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2017, 19:29
by steve2267
krorvik wrote:
steve2267 wrote:while the vipers will start going to the shredder.


Awww... say it isn't so... don't you have a boneyard up there somewhere above the arctic circle? Can't you freeze 'em or something? (Say on Svalbard?) Will they have any hours left on the airframe, or will the Norske Vipers be all used up at that point?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2017, 20:18
by krorvik
Unfortunately, handing off military equipment of that kind is hard - due to US regulations among others. Norwegian law ain't easy either.

Some more info from earlier this year:

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/01 ... -16-fleet/

Maybe they'll sell me the 666 ("Christine") tail for a case of beers... would look cool in the garden.

(edit: typo)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2017, 20:39
by krorvik
Norwegian DoD confirms the event on nov 10th will be streamed live. I'll try to post an URL here when available.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 01 Nov 2017, 18:20
by doge
Article written by Norwegian Institute of International Affairs (NUPI) on 8 September 2017? (Tentatively post...)
http://www.css.ethz.ch/en/services/digi ... cb3f278d3b
http://www.css.ethz.ch/en/services/digi ... 278d3b/pdf
How the Joint Strike Fighter Seeks to Preserve Air Supremacy for Decades to Come
2 Oct 2017
By Sigurd Neubauer for Norwegian Institute of International Affairs (NUPI)
Since its inception in 2001, the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program has cleared several technical and political hurdles, and its development stage should finally end in spring 2018. However, is the JSF still capable of delivering on its promise to help the US and its allies maintain air supremacy into the future? To answer this question, Sigurd Neubaucer reviews 1) the program’s governing processes; 2) the procedures that aim to allow for the fighter’s continuous modernization; 3) the framework the program’s partners must use to acquire additional technologies for their aircraft, and more.
This article was originally published by the Norwegian Institute of International Affairs (NUPI) on 8 September 2017.

Since its inception in 2001, the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program has cleared several technical and political hurdles as it is nearing the end of its development stage, formally known as System Development and Demonstration (SDD), which is expected to be completed in the spring of 2018.
The JSF is designed to be a game changer – with the combined air-to- air and air-to-surface capabilities – which means that it can both support ground troops and naval forces – when it comes to targeting enemy strategic targets during warfare. The JSF, also known as the F-35 Lightning II Program, can also operate in areas where the F-16 cannot. Furthermore, the JSF program has established comprehensive planning processes that seek to identify and analyze technological advances by adversaries such as North Korea, Russia, China and Iran as they seek to respectively close their military gaps with Washington.
The initial debate over the affordability of the aircraft – which was exacerbated by U.S. President Donald J. Trump shortly after his inauguration – has since evolved to whether its multi-platform role, which ranges from cutting edge intelligence gathering to intelligence sharing capabilities – through a centralized systems engineering network – is capable of delivering on its promise to help preserve U.S. and its allies air supremacy for decades to come.
Towards that end, the JSF partner countries – the U.S., Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Turkey and the United Kingdom – drew up a joint requirements document in 2008 detailing specific guidelines for the capabilities of the aircraft at full capacity, which have undergone a comprehensive set of tests by the Pentagon’s SDD to ensure that the initial set of requirements are met by its Joint Program Office and its principal contractor. Once the development phase has been completed, further testing will then be carried out by another Pentagon program entitled Initial Operational Test and Evaluation (IOT&E).
In tandem with these processes, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) has also published periodic reviews of the JSF program, including of its testing phases to ensure its overall quality control and that program benchmarks are being met. This includes accounting for that the various threat scenarios planned for – ranging from war games to simulated exercises – are being met, and to ensure that the program meets its budget obligations.
Within this context, understanding the various processes governing the program is not only paramount for policy makers and the tax payer alike but could also impact the aircraft’s attractiveness for future customers who will have to acquire it through the U.S. State Department’s Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program.
This analysis seeks therefore to identify how the program is governed, how its various challenges – ranging from software development to the acquisition of the latest weapon systems are integrated – are overcome and how its modernization procedures are carried out.

Development and Security
During the installment of Block 2B phase (2015), central weapon systems have been installed, including air-to-air and air-to-ground capabilities. This was followed up by the installment of Block 3I phase (2016) which included the capabilities of Block 2B but was released to the program’s international partners.
The impending completion of Block 3F means that the SDD phase has been completed, which entails that all program requirements have been met. Once the JSF’s software has been fully completed, installed and tested, the F-35 will operate in a similar fashion to any modern smart phone where the system engineering will be subjected to constant updates and modernization. Ensuring that the JSF can resist.
hacking and a broad range of cyber attacks are also being tested during the SDD stage. Moreover, like prior generations of fighter jets, the JSF has built in capabilities to self-destruct and destroy all data if an aircraft is obtained by an adversary.
As of June 2017, over 200 F-35s have been delivered to the U.S., Australian, British, Dutch, Norwegian and Italian air force. An additional 100 aircrafts are at various stages of production. The F-35 comes in three versions: F-35A; F-35B; F-35C.
The F-35C is designed for U.S. Navy only, with the added capability and strength to handle catapult starts and barrier landings needed to safely operate on the various U.S. aircraft carriers.
The F-35B has been ordered by the U.S. Marine Corps, Britain and Italy and has the added capability of short takeoffs and vertical landings.
The F-35A has been ordered by the U.S., Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Norway and Turkey. Canada, however, is the only F-35 partner country that has yet to decided whether to acquire the aircraft.
Japan, South Korea and Israel will also require it through the FMS. However, Seoul has yet to formally commit to the F-35 acquisition. Belgium, Finland, Switzerland and Singapore have also expressed interest in acquiring the F-35 jets through the FMS program.

Testing
The program has established two types of test regimes to verify that the requirements set by the partners are being met: The first is carried out by a development community, which is responsible for the entire development process of the JSF, and consist of an estimated 1,000 individuals working out of Joint Base Edwards where 19 aircraft (primarily the B and C version of the F-35) are used for testing. The 19 F-35s, however, are not production aircraft as they are instrumented for their special purpose.
Towards that end, the IOT&E oversees the testing and development of the aircraft – also known as the Development Test & Evaluation (DT&E) – and operational testing, known as Operational Test & Evaluation (OT&E). DT&E is conducted throughout the acquisition process to assist in engineering design and development and to verify that technical performance specifications have been met. DT&E is planned and monitored by the developing agency and is normally conducted by the contractor. For its part, OT&E is a fielded test, under realistic combat conditions, for a Major Defense Program (MDP) – in this case the F-35 program - in which any item or component of a weapons system, equipment, or munitions for the purposes of determining its operational effectiveness and operational suitability for combat.
The DT&E ensures that the joint requirements document of 2008 which outlines specific guidelines for the capabilities of the F-35 at full capacity are being met.
The OT&E phases ensures that the aircraft actually works during war against existing threat scenarios and partially against future threat scenarios.
In the event that the OT&E phase determines that the aircraft’s capabilities does not meet the present threat scenario – because the adversary capabilities may have evolved since the initial requirement document was first draw up in 2008 – the OT&E will then specify requirements targeting the renewed enemy capabilities. Because of the ever changing adversary capabilities, the OT&E process ensures that the development process is in place for the program’s lifespan.
The second part of the testing is carried out by the Initial Operational Test & Evaluation (IOT&E), which is not only responsible for overseeing that the technical requirements are being met, but to ensure that they work during conflict.
Overseeing all of the testing is a program entitled Operational Test & Evaluation (DOT&E),whose director reports directly to the U.S. secretary of defense. The testing covers the three versions of the F-35, and include developing various war scenarios - real and simulated threat scenarios – where the F-35 effectiveness and survivability are tested. A wide range of strategic scenarios are accounted for during this part of the testing and air tactics are developed in this process.

Follow On Modernization
Once the last part of the testing has been completed, which centers on completing the last segment of the F-35 software coding, also known as 3F, the program’s requirements have been met and the aircraft will not only be operational but fully capable of targeting the present range of global threat scenarios. Within this context, the operational testing seeks to identify the various existing threat scenarios – as per the program requirements of 2008. Once the basic platform has been completed, which the end of the SDD entails, the follow on modernization phase can begin. This follow-on-modernization will go on throughout the lifetime of the weapon system, just like the legacy platforms, like the F-16, has undergone for the last 40 years.
The program initially established a process that outlines a comprehensive upgrade regime for the aircraft every second year. While Block 4 is expected to be launched in Spring 2018, Block 4.1 is planned to be released in 2020 timeframe and focus on software updates. For Block 4.2. slated for 2022 timeframe, the aircraft will undergo both software and hardware upgrades; Block 4.3, slated for 2024 will target software upgrades and Block 4.4. is expected to have the aircraft undergo another round of software and hardware upgrades pending the development in the threat environment. This process will continue through the future developments of block 5, 6 and 7 and so forth. The program, however, aims to revise its upgrade procedures and will in the process adopt a system-of-system approach that will not only focus on the aircraft itself and its software but also on the various weapons systems attached.
The next phase of the F-35 program, formally known as Follow On Modernization, or Block 4, seeks to develop capabilities meant to preserve U.S. and its allies’ global military supremacy against adversaries and their steadily improving defense systems and capabilities. Towards that end, the various F-35 partner countries may implement their respective and collective intelligence to customize their fleet with added on technologies of their choosing, which may be incorporated into the aircraft.
The modernization program will enable program executives to plan for various enemy capabilities as the aircraft is being upgraded on a regular basis to meet emerging threats. While Block 4 is primarily about weapons, it is equally important for the aircraft to develop all of its censors throughout the lifetime of the weapon system.

Common Capabilities, Common Standard and Unique Capabilities
The Block 4 framework ensures that an estimated 95 percent of the JSF’s capabilities remain the same under what is known as Common Capabilities. Common Capabilities seeks not only to guarantee quality control as the program embarks into its Follow On Modernization phase, but also seeks to keep that process cost efficient as each partner contributes to its development and are collectively responsible for its financing.
In the event a partner chooses to include additional technologies on to its aircraft beyond what is provided through the Common Capabilities framework, it can choose between the following two sub categories: Partially Common Capabilities and Unique Capabilities.
Partially Common Capabilities include technologies or weapon systems that two partners/FMS customers or more may seek to acquire.
Unique Capabilities include technologies or weapon systems that only one partners/FMS customer or more may seek to acquire.
Each partner/FMS customer is responsible for the financing of technologies acquired either through the Partially Common Capabilities and/or Unique Capabilities.
In the event it is U.S. technology, when it comes to acquiring the additional capabilities, each partner country/FMS customer must adhere to the requirements set by the U.S. National Disclosure Policy.
Common Package: In the case of Norway, as it has specific needs and requirements that not all of the other F-35 partners presently have, Oslo has requested that a long-range missile capable of targeting well protected land and naval targets entitled the Joint Strike Missile (JSM) being integrated in Block 4.
At the time of the launching of the JSF program, Norway was the only member in need of that capability – which is why it requested the JSM as a unique requirement for its program participation – but over the past decade as threat scenarios evolve other JSF partners have expressed an interest in that capability, including Australia. In 2013, Norway and Australia signed an agreement for further developing the JSM, but Canberra has yet to commit to its acquisition
Fellow JSF program partner Turkey is also developing its own long-range missile, the SOM Cruise Missile, which competes with the JSM should Australia indeed seek to acquire the long-range missile capability as they both can be integrated onto the F-35.
While no agreement between Turkey and Australia has been signed, Canberra is expected to make a decision in 2018 or 2019 regarding whether to acquire a long-range missile.
Given that Norway, Turkey and Australia are program partners, the potential acquisition would have evolved from Unique Capacity to Partially Common, which is governed by a separate set of program regulations. However, once Australia has committed itself to acquiring either of the missiles, it can influence the process going forward, including by jointly financing the continued development of the missile and it’s integration in the F-35.

Other Weapon Choices
While the Drag Chute capability has been developed by Norway to ensure that the F-35 can land safely on the country’s icy runways during severe winter conditions, Canada and the Netherlands are also considering acquiring that capability. But unlike the JSM, the Drag Chute capability is released and available to any potential customer of the F-35 as it is not subjected to the same set of regulatory framework governing its release of technology. Norway’s NAMMO, a state-owned joint venture with the government of Finland, is a subcontractor of Raytheon’s Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAMM), which is another capability that will be installed on the JSF and which is meant to compliment the JSM through its air-to-air capability.
The ARAMM missile, however, faces competition from Britain’s Meteor missile, originally manufactured for the Eurofighter Typhoon, which will also be integrated on the JSF. UK and Italy is currently partners that are looking for this integration.
Neither Denmark or Canada entered the F-35 program with any specific requirements beyond what the program’s Common Capabilities offer and is currently not developing their own technologies for the JSF.
The U.S. has existing weapons systems on other planes that will be integrated within the F-35, including the Small Diameter Bomb (SDB) that it seeks to develop further. In the case of nuclear weapons, this is a capability that the U.S. is unlikely to share with any of its partners as it would violate its long-standing policy of counter proliferation. It is unclear whether the F-35A or the F-35C, or both, will have a nuclear capability. Regardless, for any partner country to acquire the SDB or other technologies, it would have to secure them through the U.S. National Disclosure Policy, which is evaluated on a bilateral basis. If the technology is not released by the U.S., it remains a Unique Capability and program partners should not have to share any development nor integration costs of such capabilities.
The debate over the F-35 has evolved from its affordability to whether it can indeed meet expectations centering on its alleged ability to preserve the military supremacy of the USA and its allies amid a time increasing global uncertainty. Given the rapid evolution of military technology worldwide, this question cannot be answered once and for all. The strength of the JSF will depend on the both the agility and the quality of the program. Understanding the processes governing the program is therefore instrumental for policymakers and the taxpayers alike.

About the Author
Sigurd Neubauer is a senior analyst at SOS International LLC.
For more information on issues and events that shape our world, please visit the CSS Blog Network or browse our Digital Library.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 01 Nov 2017, 19:26
by krorvik
I stumbled across a little treasure following some links today, the norwegian armed forces have a photo collection, with many images of the F-35, and other subjects.You are free to access them but do note the following restrictions:

All images are property of norwegian armed forces
Norwegian armed forces, and photographer must be credited for all use of them
Images must not be used for commercial purposes, or be handed over to a third party or stored in databases of any kind
Images or video must not be modified without the consent of the norwegian armed forces media center

The button "Ja, jeg akseptere bruksvilkårene" ("Yes, I accept the terms of use") will send you to the image collection:

https://forsvaret.no/pressesider/mediearkiv

Images from tomorrows landing will be posted there according to the norwegian programme.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 01 Nov 2017, 20:15
by botsing
krorvik wrote:The button "Ja, jeg akseptere bruksvilkårene" ("Yes, I accept the terms of use") will send you to the image collection:

https://forsvaret.no/pressesider/mediearkiv

Thanx! It contains some great pictures.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 01 Nov 2017, 20:39
by krorvik
Sure does!

In related news, arrival of the three F-35s @ Ørland is delayed 24 hours (for now) due to no tanker availability.

So, friday at the earliest. Possibly later.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 01 Nov 2017, 22:54
by white_lightning35
krorvik wrote:Sure does!

In related news, arrival of the three F-35s @ Ørland is delayed 24 hours (for now) due to no tanker availability.

So, friday at the earliest. Possibly later.


Pls be there to take pictures. :mrgreen:

Just kidding :twisted:

Although it would be nice... 8)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 02 Nov 2017, 07:27
by krorvik
Oh, I'd love to be there. But, it seems only the press and invited VIPs are allowed in to witness the landing and the ceremony.

Of course, it'd be possible to drive out and take pictures from some distance. Don't think the missus would be all too happy about leaving her at home with sick kids for a couple of days though... hehe.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 02 Nov 2017, 09:13
by viper12
krorvik wrote:Of course, it'd be possible to drive out and take pictures from some distance. Don't think the missus would be all too happy about leaving her at home with sick kids for a couple of days though... hehe.


Kamerat krorvik, tell her it's for the greater good ! :twisted:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 02 Nov 2017, 09:17
by krorvik
Only 7:30 driving time one way... ( http://tinyurl.com/ycn84dlm - my real address not shown, using Kjeller Air base as start :roll: )

... nah - I'll watch the stream ;)

Edit: it's very possible I did not hide my address, if it's exposed in the real URL..... Oh well, it's googleable anyway :devil:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 02 Nov 2017, 09:27
by krorvik
viper12 wrote:Kamerat krorvik, tell her it's for the greater good ! :twisted:


"This is a matter of national security!"

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 02 Nov 2017, 10:18
by viper12
krorvik wrote:
viper12 wrote:Kamerat krorvik, tell her it's for the greater good ! :twisted:


"This is a matter of national security!"


Or you can tell her you don't even have to sacrifice one eye like Odin, just one day, to gain wisdom ! :mrgreen:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 02 Nov 2017, 14:59
by steve2267
Quick Viper -- incorporate a company called National Security or something close. Hire krorvik as a consultant. You wouldn't want to make a liar out of the man...

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 02 Nov 2017, 17:49
by viper12
I got the right plan. Kamerat krorvik must make the ultimate sacrifice, by being away from his wife and kids for one day, because he knows a disease/virus keeps jumping from a host to another one, especially in the tight confines of a house, so that more people are ill for longer than necessary. And to have the proper distance to not get sick, he must go as far as Kjeller Air Base !

Or plan B ; he joins the Telemark Bataljon, takes a ride in their emblematic drekar, and when asked the destination, he shall shout : "Til [s]Valhall[/s] Kjeller flypass !" :twisted:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 02 Nov 2017, 18:10
by krorvik
Bonus: The most common (in fact only) flight from Kjeller to Ørland are vipers.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 08:41
by krorvik
All three F-35s lifted off from Fort Worth today at 0635 CET - arrival should be around 1500 CET today. That's 0900 EDT if I read the US timezone chart right...

Update: Just saw a five minute segment on "TV2 nyhetskanalen" with Col. Fongen from the norwegian prgramme. Standar questions, on oxygen, price, and noise - and capabilities - well answered by the Col.

There has been a little bit of fuzz from the local farmers in the Ørland area - who wish to stay in the area despite noise (The increase in noise over F-16 ops has been estimated at +10dB) - provided the RNoAF can provide a secondary location for them. RNoAF has denied this, saying they will only accept them moving. Which of course is both sad for them, and costs the farmers both money and effort. There is no update on that case.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 10:03
by sunstersun
I'm so ****** pumped.

lots of pictures please.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 12:42
by krorvik
Norwegian state broadcaster will be streaming live:

https://tv.nrk.no/direkte/event/f11159

Is this available in other countries?

Two other major sources for streams:

https://direkte.vg.no/studio/nyhetsdoegnet
http://www.tv2.no/v/1014608/

Birds were confirmed passing Maine a couple of hours ago by @Airheadsfly on twitter (tracking the accompanying KC-10).

Yeah, I'm a little stoked :)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 12:59
by bojack_horseman
krorvik wrote:Norwegian state broadcaster will be streaming live



Yep, works fine.

Showing a splash screen saying the show will start 2:25

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 13:16
by krorvik
Thanks for confirming :)

Update: ETA is now 15:40 CET - that is 09:40 EDT. Twitter account @Kampfly_no brings updates. Local weather overcast, 8C, 6m/s.

- NRK now due to start 1525.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 15:27
by krorvik
And NRK is live :)

Note strong restrictions on angles for the cameras.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 16:02
by lamoey
They just landed!

They all seem to have RNoAF tail markings, but otherwise I could not see any Norwegian marks on the side of the intake.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 16:10
by bojack_horseman
Tail logo looks pretty cool though.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 16:13
by viper12
Just to be sure, U.S. pilots flew the Norwegian F-35's for delivery ? http://www.tv2.no/v/1245569/

My Norsk is obviously terrible. :mrgreen:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 16:15
by krorvik
viper12 wrote:Just to be sure, U.S. pilots flew the Norwegian F-35's for delivery ? http://www.tv2.no/v/1245569/

My Norsk is obviously terrible. :mrgreen:


That's even "trøndersk", a rather strange dialect if you're not norwegian ;)

Yup, hired hands in cockpits :)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 16:17
by viper12
They'll be in shock then if they see the prices at the Norwegian McDonald's ! :mrgreen:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 16:37
by krorvik
lamoey wrote:They just landed!

They all seem to have RNoAF tail markings, but otherwise I could not see any Norwegian marks on the side of the intake.


They're still us property, rnoaf roundels will be applied when they're properly registeret,in time for the formal ceremony :D

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 16:53
by lamoey
viper12 wrote:They'll be in shock then if they see the prices at the Norwegian McDonald's ! :mrgreen:


I don't know for sure, but there may not be one near Ørland. The beer price of $20 for a 0.5 liter, is likely to cause more concern I would think.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 17:24
by krorvik
And gasoline or diesel. Have a feeling they will be driven back to Værnes airport to fly home though ;)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 18:13
by krorvik
I saw someone say Billie Flynn was one of the ferrymen. Anyone seen the same info? Can't dig it back.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 18:37
by pron
lamoey wrote:
viper12 wrote:They'll be in shock then if they see the prices at the Norwegian McDonald's ! :mrgreen:


I don't know for sure, but there may not be one near Ørland. The beer price of $20 for a 0.5 liter, is likely to cause more concern I would think.

You have to get closer to Trondheim to find a McDonald's, and you pay around $10-14 for 0,5l beer.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 19:28
by krorvik
Quite a few official pictures posted:

http://mediearkiv.forsvaret.no/fotoweb/ ... 0-F-35%20/

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 19:52
by spazsinbad
krorvik wrote:Quite a few official pictures posted:

http://mediearkiv.forsvaret.no/fotoweb/ ... 0-F-35%20/

Thanks! :mrgreen: :applause: NOT WRONG! :doh: :devil: Terrific that the captions are in two languages for easier comprehension. :crazypilot:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 21:14
by krorvik
Also stumbled across this video, english language:

https://www.vgtv.no/video/148842/slik-f ... ssituasjon

Another norwegian paper also states that the first task the F-35 will take is QRA from Evenes.

(https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/for ... /24178540/)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 23:04
by viper12
Seems the F-16 in the video got...

Dolby Surrounded ! :twisted:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 04 Nov 2017, 09:00
by energo
krorvik wrote:Also stumbled across this video, english language:

https://www.vgtv.no/video/148842/slik-f ... ssituasjon


So Dolby and wingman were equipped with radar reflectors. Perhaps they were behind the F-16, who's GCI merely reported a slightly limp house sparrow at 0.9M, the whole time. What does the radar display tell us, if anything? :mrgreen:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 04 Nov 2017, 10:02
by krorvik
Much too little information in that vid to say anything, really. It's a demoflight designed to show some magazine how hard life gets for a 4th gen up against a 5th gen.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 05 Nov 2017, 04:45
by gc
energo wrote:
krorvik wrote:Also stumbled across this video, english language:

https://www.vgtv.no/video/148842/slik-f ... ssituasjon


So Dolby and wingman were equipped with radar reflectors. Perhaps they were behind the F-16, who's GCI merely reported a slightly limp house sparrow at 0.9M, the whole time. What does the radar display tell us, if anything? :mrgreen:


The F-35 radar reflectors look very different from the F-22’s. I believe its a stealthy housing for a reflector that can be retracted or folded to give rise to differing radar signatures. Having such flexibility will be great for an export fighter that will spend significant time operating in peacetime near to hostile countries who will be extremely curious about the Lightning’s RCS.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 05 Nov 2017, 05:14
by optimist
It reminds me of a pantomime....He's behind you...


Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 05 Nov 2017, 05:39
by SpudmanWP
gc wrote:The F-35 radar reflectors look very different from the F-22’s. I believe its a stealthy housing for a reflector that can be retracted or folded to give rise to differing radar signatures.


The radar reflectors in the F-35 are fixed in place (non-retractable) and can be mounted in up to 4 locations.

Image


Here is a closeup of the underside of an F-35B where 1 of a possible 2 reflectors can be mounted.

Image

Note the green arrow, that is a reflector. Also, note the round access port to mount the bolt through.

The yellow circle is the diamond-shaped panel that has to be removed in order to bolt the 2nd reflector too.

These diamond-shaped panels can be seen in many places on the F-35, primarily where the wing pylons attach.

Image

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 05 Nov 2017, 20:14
by rheonomic
krorvik wrote:Quite a few official pictures posted:

http://mediearkiv.forsvaret.no/fotoweb/ ... 0-F-35%20/


Has anyone been able to download any of the pics? Seems to be stuck "processing..." for me in Chrome.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 05 Nov 2017, 20:33
by viper12
Same problem with my Firefox ; I probably don't think enough in Russian ! :devil:

EDIT : It now works.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 06 Nov 2017, 15:28
by viper12
energo wrote:
krorvik wrote:Also stumbled across this video, english language:

https://www.vgtv.no/video/148842/slik-f ... ssituasjon


So Dolby and wingman were equipped with radar reflectors. Perhaps they were behind the F-16, who's GCI merely reported a slightly limp house sparrow at 0.9M, the whole time. What does the radar display tell us, if anything? :mrgreen:


I'd have some doubts the GCI can track that house sparrow ; in the following DTIC document, the detection range for a generic FMCW radar is given as 4,830m : http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA321060

And that's with birds having an RCS of 0.01m^2, a house sparrow likely has a smaller RCS. So I'd bet the radar reflectors made a much bigger return than a house sparrow. :wink:

P.S. : I checked around Ørland on Google Maps, it's horrible. No McDonald's, no Burger King, no KFC, no Pizza Hut, no Taco Bell ! The nearest place to clog arteries properly is Trondheim, 2+ hours away by car !

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 06 Nov 2017, 17:37
by hythelday
viper12 wrote:
P.S. : I checked around Ørland on Google Maps, it's horrible. No McDonald's, no Burger King, no KFC, no Pizza Hut, no Taco Bell ! The nearest place to clog arteries properly is Trondheim, 2+ hours away by car !


Norway should have bought Bees - VTOL straight to Macs parking lot within minutes!

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 06 Nov 2017, 18:06
by lamoey
viper12 wrote:P.S. : I checked around Ørland on Google Maps, it's horrible. No McDonald's, no Burger King, no KFC, no Pizza Hut, no Taco Bell ! The nearest place to clog arteries properly is Trondheim, 2+ hours away by car !


This is out of necessity to make sure the pilots, and technicians, can fit in the tiny Viper cockpit. As a 20 year old, 6 foot 3 inch tall flight control technician, I had no problems reaching the flight control panel at the rare left side. I tried again at around 45 years old, and I had trouble reaching the panel. Hence, keep the fast food restaurants far away from the bases...

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 06 Nov 2017, 22:48
by neptune
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/11 ... ree-f-35s/

Norway accepts its first three F-35s

By: Valerie Insinna  

WASHINGTON —
Norway welcomed its first three F-35 joint strike fighters to Ørland Air Base on Nov. 3, the Norwegian government announced Saturday. The aircraft aren’t the first F-35s to be delivered to Norway, as the country already has seven F-35A joint strike fighters stationed at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, for training. However, the new jets are the first F-35s to be permanently based in Norway. The three aircraft took off from manufacturer Lockheed Martin’s production facilities in Fort Worth, Texas, at 6:35 a.m. Norwegian time on Nov. 3. They landed at Ørland Air Base at 3:57 p.m. the same day. Maj. Gen. Morten Klever, the F-35 program director for Norway’s Ministry of Defense, called the event a “major step towards increased operational capability for the future,” adding in the written statement that the Royal Norwegian Air Force looks forward to using the aircraft to train its pilots. Ahead of the arrival of the first Norwegian joint strike fighter, Lockheed also made its first deliveries of F-35 simulators to international countries, including Norway, Israel, Italy and Japan, the company said Monday. The simulators will also help enable these air forces to start standing up their own domestic pipeline for pilot training instead of having to send operators to U.S. bases for instruction. Norway intends to buy 52 F-35A conventional takeoff and landing jets to replace its current inventory of 56 F-16 Fighting Falcons, which it will phase out as early as 2021. From 2018 to 2024, the country will accept six joint strike fighters a year. The Norwegian government plans to hold a ceremony this Friday commemorating the arrival of the first F-35s.
:P

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Nov 2017, 00:15
by spazsinbad

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2017, 18:10
by pron
Norway Becomes First Partner Nation to Receive F-35 Mission Data Software File.

Norway became the first foreign nation to receive the delivery of Block 3F mission data from US Air Force’s 53rd Electronic Warfare Group’s Partner Support Complex last week.
“Our software provides the Norwegian F-35 an unprecedented precision attack capability – a crucial element to maintaining peace,” Robert Kraus, F-35 PSC director said in a statement Wednesday.
The delivery of Block 3F mission data is important because it enables the F-35 to accomplish its primary missions of air interdiction, close air support, and suppression and destruction of enemy air defenses.

Mission data files enable the aircraft to know what threats to search for and when, providing the F-35 its means of deciphering the environment.
“Mission data files are essential to the combat capability of the Lightning II,” said Dylan Duplechain, F-35 PSC chief engineer. “They provide the warfighter situational awareness capability and an ability to react to the threat environment.”

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/21218? ... gnQxcbiWCi

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 16:36
by spazsinbad
PDF of that Norsk MDF press release above here: http://www.jsf.mil/news/docs/20171113_5 ... Norway.pdf (246Kb)
"...The men and women of the PSC [Partner Support Complex] are charged with programing this essential mission data software for eight F-35 partner nations, to include Norway, Australia, Canada, the United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, and Denmark...."

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 17:02
by spazsinbad
F-35 arrivals propel Norwegian air force modernization
14 Nov 2017 Craig Hoyle

"The Royal Norwegian Air Force has conducted its first domestic flights with the Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II, after a trio of the fifth-generation type touched down at its Ørland air base early this month.... The F-35As had landed at Ørland on 3 November, after a 9h 22min delivery flight from Lockheed's Fort Worth plant in Texas conducted by US pilots....

..."From 2018, Norway will receive six aircraft annually up until, and including, 2024," the nation's defence ministry says. Maj Gen Morten Klever, its F-35 programme director, notes that Oslo's acquisition is "delivering on all key criteria: time, cost and performance"...."



Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ti-443287/

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 18:32
by neptune
krorvik wrote:Also stumbled across this video, english language:

https://www.vgtv.no/video/148842/slik-f ... ssituasjon

Another norwegian paper also states that the first task the F-35 will take is QRA from Evenes.

(https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/for ... /24178540/)


....my Norwegian is a bit rusty, which RNoAF unit has begun operating the F-35?

Ørland Main Air Station
138 Air Wing
338 Squadron (F-35A, NRF – NATO Reaction Force)

??
:)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2017, 20:07
by krorvik
Former 332 sqn from Bodø was stood down 2 yrs ago, and is now standing up with F-35s @ Ørland.

3T sqn is standing up as a new training sqn @ Ørland.

338 is still an F-16 sqn at Ørland - unsure whether they will convert to F-35s or if they will stand down after F-35 IOC.

Unknown which aircraft are assigned to them at the moment. F-16s have been rotated on squadrons based on availability (they belong to common FLO - defense logistics) - but this might not be necessary for new airframes.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 00:07
by neptune
krorvik wrote:Former 332 sqn from Bodø was stood down 2 yrs ago, and is now standing up with F-35s @ Ørland.
3T sqn is standing up as a new training sqn @ Ørland. ...



....excellent, does the 332 sqn have a link @Orland?
... does the 3T sqn have a link @Orland?


....I have searched with no luck!
:)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 20:49
by krorvik
AFAIK, the norwegian air force has little public info on squadrons available.

The best hits google gives are on f-16.net... what I know is to a large extend limited to tu.no, and official articles that pop up in norwegian media at times:

https://www.tu.no/emne/f-35
https://www.tu.no/emne/f-16

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 13:36
by krorvik
12 RNoAF F-16s and one F-35 did a countrywide tour today displaying a xmas formation. They are still in the air, passed Oslo a few minutes ago.

Got a couple of shots at some range using a 200mm lens, will post a little later - but no magic I'm afraid, they were too far out.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 13:50
by krorvik
Colleague of mine got a good shot, seems to have been downtown:

https://twitter.com/mortsa/status/940562338251460608

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 20:00
by botsing
krorvik wrote:Colleague of mine got a good shot, seems to have been downtown:

https://twitter.com/mortsa/status/940562338251460608

That's a pretty cool picture!

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 21:26
by viper12
krorvik wrote:Colleague of mine got a good shot, seems to have been downtown:

https://twitter.com/mortsa/status/940562338251460608


I see 2 F-35's, not one. :D

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 23:27
by white_lightning35
Oh juletre, oh juletre, how lovely are thy stealth fighters... :mrgreen:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 23:34
by krorvik

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 00:48
by viper12
Thanks to the video, I learned "Formasjon" ; guess that will be more words I can shout besides "Til bardaga !". :twisted:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 01:47
by neptune


Krovik,

In your opinion, how many of the existing F-16 (50+) pilots will be young enough to transition to the F-35 (50+)?
:)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 10:29
by krorvik
This is just guesswork, but I think I read somewhere the age limit was somewhere in the early forties. I'd guess they will try to set up so the transition to non-flying follows a natural pattern. Overlapping until about 2025 will help with this.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 13:51
by krorvik

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 14:34
by steve2267
At the end of your road, Kror?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 14:58
by spazsinbad
:devil: That must be a pornographic movie - banned in Canada! :doh: :roll: Single Engine noise a delight to hear. Right on. 8)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 15:17
by krorvik
steve2267 wrote:At the end of your road, Kror?


Not nearly, norwegian roads go much farther up North ;)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 15:18
by lamoey
steve2267 wrote:At the end of your road, Kror?


Actually, almost at the end of my road (once upon a time). The road through my home town starts in that area, but it would be a few hours winter drive. In fact 140 nautical miles driving distance would take about 4.5 hours.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 15:26
by krorvik
For those of you thinking about visiting Norway, the northern parts have stunning sceneries. Regardless of season. Narvik, Tromsø, Lofoten. Those pilots are lucky bastards for that alone.

Oh, in case someone was wondering: the vid is indeed from the QRA base @ Evenes , which is Narvik Airport.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 16:02
by spazsinbad
For those not wanting to book their face otherwise....


Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 16:12
by steve2267
spazsinbad wrote::devil: That must be a pornographic movie - banned in Canada! :doh: :roll: Single Engine noise a delight to hear. Right on. 8)



Thor would be pleased.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 16:27
by white_lightning35
Image

P.s that video is fake. Everyone knows that there is no sun in Norway at this time of the year. 8)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 16:52
by krorvik
Not the sun. Afterglow from Tsar Bomba! :devil:

Actually, you get a little bit of sunlight each day even if the sun stays below horizon. Not much though...Narvik:

https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/norway/narvik

They've had 10 days of midnight sun today. It's a bit hard to say just how much from a video - modern cameras compensate quite well in low light.

Still cool to see the F-35 up there! (Thanks spaz for the youtubing!)

Edit: Article in norwegian paper today on winter testing:

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 19:26
by spazsinbad
Pity that no one wants to mention the COLD WEATHER CLIMATE CHAMBER TESTING was successful - oh well - no headline.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 19:53
by lamoey
krorvik wrote:Not the sun. Afterglow from Tsar Bomba! :devil:

Actually, you get a little bit of sunlight each day even if the sun stays below horizon. Not much though...Narvik:

https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/norway/narvik

They've had 10 days of midnight sun today. It's a bit hard to say just how much from a video - modern cameras compensate quite well in low light.

Still cool to see the F-35 up there! (Thanks spaz for the youtubing!)

Edit: Article in norwegian paper today on winter testing:

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=


Here is a fairly accurate picture showing the amount of light at 1:33PM on December 22nd. Latitude is 68 03N, so almost parallel with Evenes airport, where the F-35 movie is recorded.
WP_20151222_13_31_33_Rich_LI.jpg
December 23, 2015 at 13:33 (68deg 3min north)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 06:26
by neptune
http://alert5.com/2017/12/16/russian-mi ... more-66526

Russian military observers Ørland air base, saw Norway’s F-35

Three Russian military observers were allowed into Norway’s Ørland air base and see the newly-arrived F-35.
image: http://alert5.com/wp-content/uploads/20 ... 8b589b.jpg
d21438a2-b0b3-447e-b66f-1ded868b589b
Photo:

Russia filed the request under the 2011 Vienna Document, which allows participating states of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe to inspect each other’s bases.

Read more at http://alert5.com/2017/12/16/russian-mi ... Jwiw2Ib.99
:wink:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 10:24
by krorvik
Hehe. The media pounced a little on that one, but got no response from MoD other than "This is in accordance with treaties". This is in fact a normal thing, not long ago one of their Antonovs were flying around doing aerial inspections up North. There are of course definite limitations to what can be done, photowise, ELINT, what they get to see etc.

We have the same opportunity - and may request access to their exercises among other things.There are other occasions too, the border agreement between Russia and Norway gave me the opportunity to visit one of their camps once for instance.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 11:32
by juretrn
I just wanted to say this:
Congrats to Norge! Now you guys suddenly have a bigger stealth fleet than Russia! :P

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 22:09
by spazsinbad

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 22:59
by optimist
One of his better moments. He was having a good day, only mixing up the name of the plane with the number being purchased.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 00:28
by popcorn
Remember when POTUS nislabelled the Blackbird the SR-71? The F-52 Lightning II... :mrgreen:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 04:15
by skyward
The bar for this President is set very low.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 05:14
by neptune
popcorn wrote:Remember when POTUS nislabelled the Blackbird the SR-71? The F-52 Lightning II... :mrgreen:


.....I take it we are not talking about an airplane person??
:)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 05:58
by steve2267
neptune wrote:
popcorn wrote:Remember when POTUS nislabelled the Blackbird the SR-71? The F-52 Lightning II... :mrgreen:


.....I take it we are not talking about an airplane person??
:)


President Johnson, wasn't it? As I recall from Ben Rich's book, the Blackbird was supposed to be the RS-71, but in his speech, Johnson said the "SR-71," thus it became the SR-71.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 06:34
by kimjongnumbaun
Every president has made a gaffe. Obama said there were 58 states. If we need to dig so hard on his ability to lead the country that the focus is him mixing up two numbers in a speech, then he's doing a good job.

I"m not going to judge Trump or Obama for mixing up numbers as I'm sure they both have a lot of things to do. People make mistakes.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 09:18
by neptune
kimjongnumbaun wrote:Every president has made a gaffe. Obama said there were 58 states. If we need to dig so hard on his ability to lead the country that the focus is him mixing up two numbers in a speech, then he's doing a good job.

I"m not going to judge Trump or Obama for mixing up numbers as I'm sure they both have a lot of things to do. People make mistakes.


....extremely slow news week! But, the Donald sold 52 F-35 to the Norge!
:)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 10:00
by loke
kimjongnumbaun wrote:Every president has made a gaffe. Obama said there were 58 states. If we need to dig so hard on his ability to lead the country that the focus is him mixing up two numbers in a speech, then he's doing a good job.

I"m not going to judge Trump or Obama for mixing up numbers as I'm sure they both have a lot of things to do. People make mistakes.

Everybody is making mistakes however what one can do is to look at the frequency (i.e. how often mistakes are being made). If the frequency is very high then there are reasons to make comments and be concerned.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 10:31
by edpop
Perfect description of our president.....................

It is better to be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 20:25
by usnvo
loke wrote:Everybody is making mistakes however what one can do is to look at the frequency (i.e. how often mistakes are being made). If the frequency is very high then there are reasons to make comments and be concerned.


Unfortunately, what people see is often what they want to see or what someone else has concluded. Take Gerald Ford, he was one of the best athletes to ever be president and yet was portrayed as clumsy because he publicly slipped on the stairs of Air Force 1 a grand total of one time. George W. Bush was a terrible public speaker who mangled words (and was considered not the brightest bulb) but was widely lauded for his unscripted, private discussions. Obama was a great public speaker (and was widely regarded as brilliant because of it) until you took away his teleprompter, then he was, at best, on par with Bush.

Without seeing someone daily it is hard to tell if their public gaffs, brilliant speeches, or witty one-liners mean anything.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 20:46
by blindpilot
usnvo wrote:...
Without seeing someone daily it is hard to tell if their public gaffs, brilliant speeches, or witty one-liners mean anything.


Well said, but even this is immaterial. If you watch the video, it's not even a gaff. He didn't say we sold F-52's to Norway. It was a momentary, tongue twist, reading "52 F-35s" and saying "F ... 52 .. that's F-35 ! we sold 52 of them." He corrected the misread on the spot. That is not gaff.

MHO,
BP

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 00:12
by skyward
Well said, but even this is immaterial. If you watch the video, it's not even a gaff. He didn't say we sold F-52's to Norway. It was a momentary, tongue twist, reading "52 F-35s" and saying "F ... 52 .. that's F-35 ! we sold 52 of them." He corrected the misread on the spot. That is not gaff.


Maybe He did try to corrected it but he did very poorly. "delivering the first f 52s and f-35 fighter jets. we have a total of 52...."

When you add the word and, it sound like 2 type of fighter jets. He should just clarify it by say I mean f-35.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 00:28
by optimist
How does that story about the guy with some stealth clothes, go again?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 01:16
by popcorn
F-52s for Normay.. :)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 02:31
by spazsinbad
Frum: https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... to-norway/
https://www.armytimes.com/resizer/gkhLo ... uality(100)/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-mco.s3.amazonaws.com/public/4FRNB5YYE5CWDILALKEEX7M33I.jpg

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 05:30
by steve2267
Yeah, but HUDs are sooooo 20th century...

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 10:30
by neptune
steve2267 wrote:Yeah, but HUDs are sooooo 20th century...


....but, but, but would an F-52 even be manned!!!
:)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 10:39
by spazsinbad
:doh: I can see a robot hand.... Or maybe it is humanoid. I do not know this game. TALK TO THE HAND! :devil: :poke: :salute:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 11:44
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote::doh: I can see a robot hand.... Or maybe it is humanoid. I do not know this game. TALK TO THE HAND! :devil: :poke: :salute:


....Oh well, at least he wasn't selling our B-52s!!
:roll:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 15:23
by XanderCrews
loke wrote:
kimjongnumbaun wrote:Every president has made a gaffe. Obama said there were 58 states. If we need to dig so hard on his ability to lead the country that the focus is him mixing up two numbers in a speech, then he's doing a good job.

I"m not going to judge Trump or Obama for mixing up numbers as I'm sure they both have a lot of things to do. People make mistakes.

Everybody is making mistakes however what one can do is to look at the frequency (i.e. how often mistakes are being made). If the frequency is very high then there are reasons to make comments and be concerned.



Concerned about What exactly Loke?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 18:31
by rheonomic
steve2267 wrote:President Johnson, wasn't it? As I recall from Ben Rich's book, the Blackbird was supposed to be the RS-71, but in his speech, Johnson said the "SR-71," thus it became the SR-71.


I don't remember if there's any consensus on how the SR-71 designation was arrived at, but another story I've heard is that Curtis LeMay preferred the SR-71 designation and arranged for Johnson's speech to be edited accordingly.


Also, there are certainly legitimate things to find fault with the president, but obsessing over every single ****** little thing like this is stupid, and is just another sign of the media's Trump Derangement Syndrome. (Also, the F-52 is only 5 less than the number of US states!)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 23:50
by southernphantom
rheonomic wrote: (Also, the F-52 is only 5 less than the number of US states!)


Good one!! :devil:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 00:20
by spazsinbad

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 22 Jan 2018, 02:00
by nutshell
I'm sorry but both Obama and Trump are quite the rookies when it comes to gaffes.

Like, having a prime minister that refers publicly to Angela Merkel as a "impossible to f. Ck fat a$$“ or in an interview defining Chinese people as “commies that eat children" 3 days before selling A.C. Milan to a Chinese guy for 750M euros.

Referring to Obama as a "really tanned guy" and... I can keep going on forever lol.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 21 Feb 2018, 05:46
by spazsinbad
Four Page PDF of this article attached below.
F-35 TOUCHES DOWN IN NORWAY
No.6 [Nov-Dec?] 2017 MILITÆRTEKNIKK

"...During exercises where the F-35 has taken part alongside F-16 and F-15 fighters, the F-35 aircraft detected things that the other aircraft failed to pick up. The F-35, however, was able to pass this information on to the F-16 and F-15 aircraft, enabling these to avoid dangers such as air defence platforms on the ground. This had the effect of increasing the survival capacity of the other aircraft, due to the sensors in the F-35. The F-35 was also able to register targets that the other aircraft could not spot, and could then convey target data to the other planes. This allowed the F-15 and F-16 fighters to engage targets they had not even detected, but that the F-35 had located for them. This may be one of the most valuable properties of the F-35 – that of raising the capability of other friendly planes, both in attack and in improved survival rate.

Over the time to come, when both army and navy forces learn to utilise the capacities offered by the F-35, we will see that navy vessels as well as army units will both operate more efficiently while also increasing their survival capability. Put briefly, the F-35 makes the other platforms better, both in the air, on the ground and at sea.

Continued development
The F-35 aircraft are by no means at the end of their development as they leave the factory. Like almost all other airplanes, development will continue, especially into the software side, as we receive feedback from our users....

...Simulator training; Huge savings
Previously, simulator training has stood for perhaps 10-20 percent of the training that pilots undergo, while the balance of the training happens in the actual aircraft cockpit.

For the F-35 we have developed ‘full mission simulators’, of which Norway has procured 8 units. This lets the pilots practice every kind of mission in the simulators. Furthermore, the simulators may be interconnected in a network, allowing pilots to train with and against each other. Many of the partnering nations in the F-35 programme are planning to conduct upwards of 50 percent of the training in simulators, giving rise to huge economic benefits....

Source: http://www.fsi.no/sfiles/13/53/2/file/mt-2017-nr-6.pdf (11Mb)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2018, 19:45
by spazsinbad
F-35, submarine programs on track for Norway
26 Mar 2018 Aaron Mehta

"WASHINGTON — Norway’s procurement of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and new high-end submarines is on track, and the government is working to induct both new systems, Norway’s top defense official said Tuesday. Norwegian Defence Minister Frank Bakke-Jensen told Defense News that he sees no problems ahead for either program....

...Norway intends to buy 52 F-35A conventional takeoff and landing jets to replace its current inventory of 56 F-16 Fighting Falcons, which it will phase out as early as 2021...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... or-norway/

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 20:02
by krorvik
Three new F-35s are expected to land @Ørland MAB as I write this. Will post pics/video if it is made available.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 01:55
by steve2267
What does that bring the total number of F-35's in Norway to? Seven? Or are there more? (I've lost track.)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 14:07
by lamoey
steve2267 wrote:What does that bring the total number of F-35's in Norway to? Seven? Or are there more? (I've lost track.)


Six in Norway so far. Seven are left in the US for training purpose.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 14:34
by gideonic
krorvik wrote:Three new F-35s are expected to land @Ørland MAB as I write this. Will post pics/video if it is made available.

There are some here:
https://twitter.com/Forsvarsdep/status/ ... 5999760385

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 20:14
by krorvik

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 27 May 2018, 23:25
by sunstersun

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2018, 06:31
by viper12
My Norsk being barely good enough for the Telemark Bataljon's warcry, what's the gist of the video ?

They're showing how training is done at Luke AFB and discuss with Hanche about how they'd be dead if they flew an F-16 in air combat against the F-35 ?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2018, 17:18
by krorvik
Pretty much. They allude to some of the controversy, and get a quick introduction from Dolby and Tintin, before taking a test flight with what seems like a dumbed down scenario to demo the radar advantage.

Not much new for the informed reader here, but I guess a nice piece of public information.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2018, 17:30
by juretrn
And the reaction of the Norwegian public to the F-35? Same old tired "piece of overpriced garbage" crap?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2018, 19:42
by krorvik
Actually, it seems people have tired of it. Even the tabloids have stopped the bashing. New value has diminished - and deliveries to homeland has started. On time. And on price. Very hard to argue with that.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 06:56
by Corsair1963
krorvik wrote:Actually, it seems people have tired of it. Even the tabloids have stopped the bashing. New value has diminished - and deliveries to homeland has started. On time. And on price. Very hard to argue with that.



Only get's better as time goes on.....



Really, going to be interesting to see how Canada explains how they got it so wrong! :doh:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 22:12
by marsavian
Trudeau will just say he managed to get more mature F-35s for the same money by taking his time in evaluating. Politicians can spin anything to their benefit.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2018, 01:56
by Corsair1963
marsavian wrote:Trudeau will just say he managed to get more mature F-35s for the same money by taking his time in evaluating. Politicians can spin anything to their benefit.




Trudeau will indeed try to spin it. Yet, few will believe him.....(on either side)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2018, 10:44
by spazsinbad
Three New F-35 Aircraft To Norway
23 May 2018 Regjeringen.no

"On May 22, three new F-35 aircraft landed at Ørland Air Base in Norway. Six aircraft are now on Norwegian soil....

...We are now another step closer to reaching Full Operation Capability with the F-35 in 2025 [Defence Minister Frank Bakke-Jensen]. Until then, we have a lot of infrastructure to build on the two air bases Ørland and Evenes; New equipment and systems need to be fitted, and dedicated personnel are being educated and trained on the new combat aircraft system to be able to ensure Norway’s safety and sovereignty in the future. The F-35 will significantly strengthen our Armed Forces’ joint defence capability, said the Defence Minister.

According to the plan, Norway will receive six new F-35s every year until 2024. Today’s arrival follows the delivery of the three first aircraft in November 2017. Since then, the Norwegian Air Force has been carrying out operational testing and evaluation of the F-35 in Norwegian conditions, aiming for Initial Operational Capability (IOC) in 2019....

Training and education on track
In addition to the six aircraft now at Oerland Air Base, the Norwegian Air Force has seven F-35s stationed at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona, USA. These are being used for training and education."

Photo: "Torbjørn Kjosvold / Norwegian Armed Forces" https://www.f35.com/assets/uploads/imag ... I08121.jpg


Source: https://www.f35.com/news/detail/three-n ... -to-norway [/quote]

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2018, 16:12
by steve2267
Norway gets it. They developed their plan and are executing it.

If Britain loses its mind and pulls a Trudeau, then Norway will be the pre-eminent airpower in central / northern Europe.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2018, 16:19
by SpudmanWP
steve2267 wrote:Norway will be the pre-eminent airpower in central / northern Europe.

Or Finland if they go F-35.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 11:42
by magitsu
This is quite interesting development, which our Norwegian members could possibly clarify further.

It seems that US forward presence in Norway is expanding. Rygge airport will receive some new infrastructure, which according to the article might mean F-22 and F-35 deployment there. Though the surface it seems to be more about 4th gen capability.

https://www.tv2.no/nyheter/9919133/

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 12:05
by loke
We also have increased number of US soldiers (US marines) in Norway.

Whereas I welcome the US service men I also think this is somewhat of an embaressment -- the Norwegian military is now so weak that we need to rely more and more on the US evn during a period of peace.


Rygge should never have been closed down as a Norwegian military air field.
And we should have had enough soldiers in Norway to be able to handle things without having the need for a constant presence of US soldiers.

I blame the Norwegian government, but actually also to some extent the Norwegian military -- clearly money should have been spent much more efficiently. We spend more than Finland but have hardly any defence capabilities left.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 16:04
by krorvik
Very much agree with Loke.

The norwegian forces, in particular the home guard and regular army, have been intentionally reduced to a scary level. In addition, most forces have been moved from the far north to the south. The north is where the training gets real, and a sufficient level to fight in real winter is attained.

The exception would be the Telemark Battalion, and the elite ranger units. They perform exceptionally. Problem is, they are being used - and quite possibly too much - abroad. Now, I feel that is a job that we need to contribute to - but not if it impacts a large portion of the forces *ready* to fight if need be. Even so, abroad is where the need has been. Not an easy decision.

The situation is far better for the air force, but the maritime patrol unit at Andøya has suffered from old equipment, and worse from personell challenges. Didn't get better after Andøya was put on the closure list .

Returning to the topic a little - the US Navy now has five (?) Poseidons at Andøya - are interested in keeping it active, albeit with their own personell(?). These are probably active monitoring a russian naval exercise these days ("alarm" exercise, some 30+ vessels and 20(?) aircraft. They are in the company of F-16s FOBed at Banak.

And further in the futur, two hangars with room for four fighter class aircraft will be built at Rygge.

Rygge will also serve as a depot for F-35 engine work, aith AIM Norway as the contractor (state owned company, former military). Which can be exploited by other air forces if they need to.

I support this - NATO is an alliance. As such, we need to lay the groundwork to actually make it efficient. Training together - and for our needs in particular - arctic training - is a basic requirement.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 20:15
by doge
Interesting... 8)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1L01YX
U.S. F-22 stealth jets simulate dogfights with Norway's F-35 warplanes
Andrea Shalal
WORLD NEWSAUGUST 16, 2018 / 3:40 AM / UPDATED 32 MINUTES AGO

ORLAND AIR BASE, Norway (Reuters) - Two U.S. F-22 stealth fighter jets squared off in simulated dogfights with two of Norway’s expanding fleet of F-35 aircraft on Wednesday as part of an exercise aimed at strengthening the NATO alliance and increasing its deterrent power.

The two U.S. F-22s are among 13 in Europe for a series of short-term deployments in places such as Greece and Poland, with further training missions planned in undisclosed locations in coming days.

The Norwegian deployment lasted just one day but will lay the groundwork for NATO allies as they work to integrate their stealth warfare capabilities, Colonel Leslie Hauck, chief of the fifth generation integration division at the U.S. Air Force’s headquarters in Europe, told reporters in Norway.

The deployment is part of U.S. efforts to reassure European allies after Russia’s 2014 annexation of Crimea.

Growing numbers of Lockheed Martin Corp F-35s are arriving in Europe as the world’s most advanced warplane and most expensive weapons program matures following a raft of cost increases and technical challenges in its early years.

“Every training opportunity that we have betters our readiness for any potential adversary of the future,” Hauck said at the Orland air base, already home to six of Norway’s expected 52 F-35s.

Hauck leads a new office at Ramstein Air Base in southwestern Germany, that is working to ensure a smooth transition for some 40 F-35s due to be on site in Europe by year end. The first U.S. F-35s are set to arrive in 2021.

Next month, a group of senior officials from the United States and seven other F-35 operator countries - Norway, Denmark, Italy, Turkey, Israel, Britain and the Netherlands - will meet to compare notes on the new warplane, which was first used in combat by Israel in May.

The United States already has more than 150 of the aircraft, whose sensors pilots say give them the most extensive overview about a battlefield of any combat jet available.

Norwegian Air Force Major Morten Hanche, who piloted one of the Norwegian F-35s, said the mock fight with the F-22s was great practice, especially since the F-35s generally surprise and overpower other non-stealthy aircraft.

He declined to name the winning aircraft, saying only: “The F-22 is a very formidable opponent.”

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2018, 09:37
by hornetfinn
OMG! :shock: :drool:

That must've been pretty damn tough exercise for both parties involved! Here is something in Norsk about this:

https://forsvaret.no/aktuelt/f-35-og-f- ... te-i-norge


Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2018, 09:54
by krorvik
Very nice to see Dolby and the others confirm the value of joint training.

A couple of short bullets from the article for the non-scandinavians:

* 13 F-35s are delivered, 7 at Luke AFB, 6 at Ørland AB
* Next three will be delivered next month
* IOC is ecpected in 2019
* F-35s will start transitioning to active tasks in 2021-2022, including QRA from Evenes
* FOC is expected in 2025 - when all F-35s are delivered and the F-16s will be scrapped

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2018, 10:24
by hornetfinn
Another interesting article in Norwegian also:

https://www.fosna-folket.no/pluss/2018/ ... 328492.ece

Google translate does pretty well.

"This is the first time I have flown F-22 in close combat with F-35. Both planes have many of the same qualities. They are fast, very maneuverable and build on the same stealth technology. It's a game changer for both F-35 and F-22, says Gregoire.

"Today we trained on fighting within visual distance, that is, we are close to each other in close combat.


Is the Raptor better than F-35?

"I do not want to say that one of the planes is better than the other. They have different roles. The F-35 is a multi-role aircraft capable of solving almost all types of missions in a superior way. F-22 Raptor has the ability to shoot against ground targets, but is primarily specialized in air-to-air matches.

So it's a flight for "dogfighter", close combat airplane flight?

- You can say that way. What's exciting for us is to integrate more flight types together to get the most out of the whole, and F-22 contributes in a slightly different way to F-35.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2018, 13:53
by spazsinbad
"Two F-22 Raptors from the 95th Fighter Squadron, 325th Fighter Wing, Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., fly in formation and conduct training operations with two Royal Norwegian air force F-35A Lightning II aircraft during an air refueling over Norway, Aug. 15, 2018. The F-22s deployed to Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany on Aug. 8 and will remain in Europe for several weeks to train and forward deploy to NATO nations. (U.S. Air Force photo by Senior Airman Preston Cherry)" http://alert5.com/wp-content/uploads/20 ... 8914-3.jpg

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2018, 15:20
by steve2267
Article states the exercises were WVR only. Wonder if / when we may ever hear about lessons learned? Hopefully not for a long time if OPSEC-related at all.

Still, I cannot help wonder about:
  1. Was it guns-only? Or were AIM-9X permitted?
  2. If AIM-9X was permitted, am wondering if the F-35 did not hand the F-22 it's *ss? Did the F-22 ever get the JHMCS? If it did, then F-22 may not have had its *ss handed to it. If the F-22 guys didn't have the point-and-shoot HOBS capability, that may have been an area the Lightning drivers could exploit.
  3. Most F-22 losses had previously been attributed to young studs becoming over-enthralled with thrust vectoring. Well, continuing to honk back on the stick and getting slow, doing their best grape impression. There may be a time to cash those energy chips in, but the F-35 is no slouch in the get-slow, high alpha nose pointing game... so doubt the F-22 had any measurable success there... still, it would be interesting to know if there was anything learned about high alpha nose pointing maneuvers. Still, OPSEC and all.
  4. Were the dars useful at all WVR? Could they even get enough data for a guns-solution? If not.. WOW! Back to WW2 and Korean-vintage gyro stabilized gunsights, possibly with tracerline display addition, but no ranging data. That would be something.
  5. If the dars were useful within some handful of miles... could AIM-120 be useful at all WVR? This could inform CUDA/SACM concept development. But AA missile antenna's are much smaller than APG-81 etc... how close would an AIM-120 have to be to get a lock? Could APG-81 guide an AIM-120 close enough for a couple miles before the missile could finish the engagement on it's own? Back to the SAR days...

Bet those were some fun engagements!

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2018, 06:54
by krorvik
I also note only one of the 35s carry the chute housing. Intentional difference?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2018, 07:07
by steve2267
Who Was Top Gun In This Epic F-35 vs. F-22 Stealth Fighter Showdown?
GILLIAN RICH 5:56 PM ET (assumed 8/16/2018)

blah blah blah -- read it at the jump

Richard Aboulafia, a Teal Group aerospace consultant, noted the two fighters are "very different concepts."

"If you're looking to really dogfight, the F-22 wins in 5 seconds flat," he said. "But if it's about sensors and tracking, then the F-35 is going to look pretty good, especially if there are a lot of F-22s and you need to coordinate with other sensors."

more blah blah on stock price movement


https://www.investors.com/news/f35-vs-f22-dogfight-lockheed-martin-nato-wargames/


Anyone know who Richard Aboulafia is? Have we quoted him in the past? Is he knowledgeable? A basement troll? Sprey disciple?

Maybe the F-22 wins in 5 seconds flat. Seems a pretty bold statement, esp. after the stories we have recently started to see coming out of, for example, Dutch training exercises in the Southwest US, and the kinematic prowess demonstrated by the F-35 @ Paris 2017 and RIAT 2018. So I'm trying to calibrate my BS meter for this Aboulafia fellow.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2018, 08:08
by marsavian
"If you're looking to really dogfight, the F-22 wins in 5 seconds flat"

That's just the common uneducated opinion that has existed for over a decade. The reality is probably more nuanced, maybe the F-22 wins eventually in say 70-80% of neutral starting positions but what if F-35's overall stealth/sensor package allows it to start in an advantageous dogfighting position more often than not ? For a ubiquitous STRIKE fighter also designed to fly off any type of ship the F-35 more than holds its own in the increasingly irrelevant field of 'dogfighting'. The F-35 dogfighting critics really need to move on from what was important in air warfare in the last century but much less so in this. The main point about the F-35's dogfighting abilities is it enough to allow F-35s to mix it up with other aircraft without fear ? Apparently it is more than enough with F-35 pilots feeling confident enough to want to initiate close combat with other aircraft. Case closed.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2018, 08:41
by hornetfinn
steve2267 wrote:
Who Was Top Gun In This Epic F-35 vs. F-22 Stealth Fighter Showdown?
GILLIAN RICH 5:56 PM ET (assumed 8/16/2018)

blah blah blah -- read it at the jump

Richard Aboulafia, a Teal Group aerospace consultant, noted the two fighters are "very different concepts."

"If you're looking to really dogfight, the F-22 wins in 5 seconds flat," he said. "But if it's about sensors and tracking, then the F-35 is going to look pretty good, especially if there are a lot of F-22s and you need to coordinate with other sensors."

more blah blah on stock price movement


https://www.investors.com/news/f35-vs-f22-dogfight-lockheed-martin-nato-wargames/


Anyone know who Richard Aboulafia is? Have we quoted him in the past? Is he knowledgeable? A basement troll? Sprey disciple?

Maybe the F-22 wins in 5 seconds flat. Seems a pretty bold statement, esp. after the stories we have recently started to see coming out of, for example, Dutch training exercises in the Southwest US, and the kinematic prowess demonstrated by the F-35 @ Paris 2017 and RIAT 2018. So I'm trying to calibrate my BS meter for this Aboulafia fellow.


Richard Aboulafia is an aircraft industry analyst which means he has done aerospace market research and forecasts. He does not have any history or experience with fighter jets or military systems or tactics AFAIK. So he does not have any real insight into that question. So he is not much different to Pierre Sprey in that regard, although I would not put him into same basket as he seems to be fairly rational.

Anyway, when it comes to pure dogfighting F-35 has some pretty nice advantages even to F-22:
- EODAS 360 degree IRST
- EOTS longer range IRST
- HMD
- Smaller size (like F-16 vs F-15)

Also to consider:

In terms of aerodynamic performance, the F-35 is an excellent machine, Beesley said. Having previously been only the second man ever to have flown the F-22 Raptor, Beesley became the first pilot ever to fly the F-35 in late 2006. As such, Beesley is intimately familiar with both programs. According to Beesley, the four current test pilots for F-35 have been most impressed by the aircraft's thrust and acceleration. In the subsonic flight regime, the F-35 very nearly matches the performance of its' larger, more powerful cousin, the F-22 Raptor, Beesley explained. The "subsonic acceleration is about as good as a clean Block 50 F-16 or a Raptor- which is about as good as you can get." Beesley said.

The aircraft flies in "large measure like the F-22, but it's smaller, and stiffer" than the Raptor however, Beesley explained, adding that the aircraft handles superbly. The reason for the similar flight characteristics, explained the test pilot, is because the man who designed the flight control laws for the Raptor, is also the same man who is responsible for the flight control software for the F-35. As Beesley explains, the flight control laws of modern fighters determine to large extent the flight characteristics of a given aircraft. Beesley said that the aircraft is so stable and so comfortable that the test pilots find themselves inadvertently drifting too close to their wingmen in formation. What Beesley expects will surprise future F-35 pilots is the jets' superb low speed handling characteristics and poststall manoeuvrability. While the F-22 with its thrust vectored controls performs better at the slow speeds and high angle of attack (AOA) flight regime, the F-35 will be able match most of the same high AOA manoeuvres as the Raptor, although it will not be able to do so as quickly as the more powerful jet in some cases. Turning at the higher Gs and higher speed portions of the flight envelope, the F-35 will "almost exactly match a clean Block 50 F-16 and comes very close to the Raptor", Beesley said.


Of course F-22 has advantages as Beesley also indicates. One important thing is that F-22 pilots have a lot of experience using their machines and F-35 pilots are just starting to learn how to use theirs.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2018, 12:38
by popcorn
The F-22 may lose sight of the F-35 under hard maneuvering, not so the other way around thanks to DAS
Lose sight, lose the fight?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2018, 12:47
by marsavian
To fix that the F-22 really needs to be retrofitted with the EoDAS Mk 2 on its MLU. It would plug any potential sensor gaps against other stealth aircraft in the future all of whom have some form of IRST which can't be jammed.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2018, 13:29
by squirrelshoes
steve2267 wrote:could AIM-120 be useful at all WVR? This could inform CUDA/SACM concept development. But AA missile antenna's are much smaller than APG-81 etc... how close would an AIM-120 have to be to get a lock?

I would think that in a turning dogfight AIM-120 would be fired in boresight mode, where it's actively pinging as soon as it leaves the rail and trying to kill the first thing it sees. Obviously nowhere near an ideal solution as an AIM-9X that can chase something off frontal aspect.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2018, 15:38
by steve2267
Future CONOPS might pair up Panthers and Raptors. I am curious to know if this Norskeman fighter exercise included pairing up one Panther and one Raptor vs the other pair. Though that sort of "experimentation" might better be left to the Weapons School guys.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2018, 18:16
by lamoey
steve2267 wrote:Future CONOPS might pair up Panthers and Raptors. I am curious to know if this Norskeman fighter exercise included pairing up one Panther and one Raptor vs the other pair. Though that sort of "experimentation" might better be left to the Weapons School guys.


Dolby did mention in the interview that they had successfully share information between the two types of aircrafts, which should mean they had done joint engagements as well as the two types up against each other. He used the words "fairly plug-and-play" for the two to share information and cooperate.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2018, 00:58
by popcorn
Waiting for Dolby email reveal on Wikileaks that the F-35s kicked Raptor butt... :devil:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2018, 10:59
by magitsu
popcorn wrote:Waiting for Dolby email reveal on Wikileaks that the F-35s kicked Raptor butt... :devil:

Since it's lately looked very much like a russian info-op, wikileaks probably won't release favorable F-35 material even if it had some. I guess we probably already have enough juicy bits, like the old rumor that F-35 would've jammed F-22's radar at one point.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2018, 14:48
by steve2267
magitsu wrote:
popcorn wrote:Waiting for Dolby email reveal on Wikileaks that the F-35s kicked Raptor butt... :devil:

Since it's lately looked very much like a russian info-op, wikileaks probably won't release favorable F-35 material even if it had some. I guess we probably already have enough juicy bits, like the old rumor that F-35 would've jammed F-22's radar at one point.


There's a thought -- to what extent could this exercise have involved F-35 being able to detect F-22 radar emissions / jam them, OR vice-versa? Though I'd expect that sort of work to have been hammered out back in Dreamland...

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2018, 22:43
by squirrelshoes
That would be interesting, I wonder each plane would even approach it? Fully passive just trying to pick up RF trace, or actively searching and counting on LPIR to get a track before they are located?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2018, 23:15
by armedupdate
F-22 v F-35 guns only, the F-22 can turn better however the F-35 has DAS so he can see all around, although the Raptor does have a bubble canopy. So it all depends on pilot skill IMO. With missiles in WVR, if merge point on, I expect mutual kills, if turning, the F-35 wins since it has HMD and DAS.

As for BVR, the F-35 obviously will win the game with it's stealthier profile, more advanced sensors, infrared sensors and electronic warfare. F-22 is slated in 2024 I believe to get a IR sensor and more modernized plug-play sensors and modernized sensor fusion so in that case, it can probably take on the F-35 then.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2018, 01:53
by popcorn
As they pass each other in a merge and 'fight's on', the F-35 pilot tosses an AIM-9X Blk2 over his shoulder that hits the Raptor in the face as it does it's turn. Lightning pilot shrugs and goes home. :mrgreen:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2018, 01:59
by SpudmanWP
popcorn wrote:As they pass each other in a merge and 'fight's on', the F-35 pilot tosses an AIM-9X Blk2 over his shoulder that hits the Raptor in the face as it does it's turn. Lightning pilot shrugs and goes home. :mrgreen:

The same can be done with the Aim-120s.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2018, 05:03
by armedupdate
SpudmanWP wrote:
popcorn wrote:As they pass each other in a merge and 'fight's on', the F-35 pilot tosses an AIM-9X Blk2 over his shoulder that hits the Raptor in the face as it does it's turn. Lightning pilot shrugs and goes home. :mrgreen:

The same can be done with the Aim-120s.

Not as efficient, AMRAAM is not meant for crazy turns.

"Dogfights" are going to be rare these days. If WVR does happen, probably they will shoot each other head on and both kill each other.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2018, 05:32
by element1loop
I'd stay well away from either of those jets.

The possible advantage F-22A has is it can freely use its A2A radar in active search mode with abandon. The F-35 pilot might best be sparring with radar search given it doesn't have the same excess speed and altitude margin.

But if both are fed with a current comprehensive off-board tactical air picture and sensor cues, they're probably equally deady to anything they're likey to face.

In the end I'd want all those attack weapons. In comparison, in 2025 the F-22A seems a bit ... hmm ... passe? Mid-life crisis?

If I'm a bad-guy I'd see the F-35A as the more scarey jet in the mid-2020s IMHO.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2018, 05:51
by SpudmanWP
armedupdate wrote:Not as efficient, AMRAAM is not meant for crazy turns.

Several of the recent blocks specifically address HOBS updates. While an AMRAAM can't turn as tight, as a 9x, it's motor burns far longer.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2018, 08:11
by wrightwing
element1loop wrote:I'd stay well away from either of those jets.

The possible advantage F-22A has is it can freely use its A2A radar in active search mode with abandon. The F-35 pilot might best be sparring with radar search given it doesn't have the same excess speed and altitude margin.

But if both are fed with a current comprehensive off-board tactical air picture and sensor cues, they're probably equally deady to anything they're likey to face.

In the end I'd want all those attack weapons. In comparison, in 2025 the F-22A seems a bit ... hmm ... passe? Mid-life crisis?

If I'm a bad-guy I'd see the F-35A as the more scarey jet in the mid-2020s IMHO.

They're both going to be a lot scarier in the 2020s.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2018, 13:53
by squirrelshoes
element1loop wrote:The possible advantage F-22A has is it can freely use its A2A radar in active search mode with abandon. The F-35 pilot might best be sparring with radar search given it doesn't have the same excess speed and altitude margin.

Wouldn't an F-22 pilot be concerned that something so good at tracking/identifying passively like F-35 would gain an advantage by locating F-22 first that is actively searching? I mean, if that F-35 picks up location of the F-22 first because it was able to receive and filter the F-22 active in LPRI amongst the noise it would have a huge advantage since could then manage it's own stealth to find a better position outside detection cone of that APG-77.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2018, 21:26
by lamoey
squirrelshoes wrote:
element1loop wrote:The possible advantage F-22A has is it can freely use its A2A radar in active search mode with abandon. The F-35 pilot might best be sparring with radar search given it doesn't have the same excess speed and altitude margin.

Wouldn't an F-22 pilot be concerned that something so good at tracking/identifying passively like F-35 would gain an advantage by locating F-22 first that is actively searching? I mean, if that F-35 picks up location of the F-22 first because it was able to receive and filter the F-22 active in LPRI amongst the noise it would have a huge advantage since could then manage it's own stealth to find a better position outside detection cone of that APG-77.


I seriously doubt that the F-35 can track the F-22 radar. Not because it is technically impossible, but because there is no reason for the US to allow an F-35 to ever be able to track an F-22. We all know that the F-22 will only be in US service, while it is theoretically possible that an F-35 ends up in a not so friendly country (Turkey).

The same was supposedly the case of the F-16 not being able to track the F-15, on purpose, in earlier days. I doubt the F-16 can't track the F-15 these days though.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2018, 22:05
by squirrelshoes
lamoey wrote:but because there is no reason for the US to allow an F-35 to ever be able to track an F-22. We all know that the F-22 will only be in US service

Well except for like, last week in Norway.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 00:05
by popcorn
Maybe they can leave a "hole" in the F-35 data files so it turns a blind eye to any bogey matching F-22 ID parameters? :mrgreen:
Given potential LO adversary systems in the battle space, you would think the F-35 sensors would be optimized to detect such threats. If it can detect a Raptor, so be it.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 01:36
by armedupdate
The F-22 now, the F-35 can probably easily track and jam. They will be adding a modern APG-77 with modern architecture in the future.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 02:47
by fbw
armedupdate wrote:The F-22 now, the F-35 can probably easily track and jam. They will be adding a modern APG-77 with modern architecture in the future.


? The APG-77 has been updated several times already, new CIPs, new MMIC tech, several software upgrades and capability upgrades. Currently update 6 for antenna hardware and software (2019-2021?)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 04:56
by popcorn
squirrelshoes wrote:
lamoey wrote:but because there is no reason for the US to allow an F-35 to ever be able to track an F-22. We all know that the F-22 will only be in US service

Well except for like, last week in Norway.

If the Raptor won, what else is new?
If the F-35 won, heads would be exploding on both sides of the pond :devil:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 07:46
by element1loop
Well, if I'm bad-guy country, I have neither one, so not a case of 22 v 35. My point was, which one bothers me more as a bad-guy country?

Having watched the 22 doing its vertical "I'm-a-spaceship" thing, in the flesh, it's a maniac. I loved how quiet it was in the visual mil approach routine too, the engines were near idle, still with enough thrust. The 35 was much louder doing the same things. Which reinforced the thrust and clean scalloped wing advantage (at altitude) of the 22.

But for me, the bad guy country, right now, they both are a real worry, the 35 especially. There is simply no ignoring the overwelming inner-mongel of the F35:

A2G Mapping Radar
A2G Attack Radar
A2G specialised DAS
A2G Attack EOTS
A2G Diverse standoff weapon options
A2G Precision tactical picture
A2G Mother-of-all SAM killers
A2A Mother of all battlefield killers.

Real-time fusion and datalink comms of all the above.

Even the 3F is the scarier jet.

The 22 has a whole lot of catching-up to become that wicked. And then there's Bk4 ...

Bk4 = Souper-doopa mother-of-all mongrels!


Yeah, sorry 22 fans, in the mid-2020s, it will be the 35 that really intimidates the hell out of the bad-guy countries.

The sort of money and effort needed to bring that to the 22? Well, that just isn't going to happen. It will get a fraction of it.

The rest I suspect will channel into a PCA Ultrasaurus-mega-mongrel, "F-36A Carnivor", with the legs the 22 and 35 don't have.

(geez I hope RAAF puts up its hand for some of those f***ers ...)

RED MEAT! .... YUM! ... :devil:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 10:01
by armedupdate
fbw wrote:
armedupdate wrote:The F-22 now, the F-35 can probably easily track and jam. They will be adding a modern APG-77 with modern architecture in the future.


? The APG-77 has been updated several times already, new CIPs, new MMIC tech, several software upgrades and capability upgrades. Currently update 6 for antenna hardware and software (2019-2021?)

F-22 is still a pretty old plane that needs upgrading to a more modern sensor fusion. Flights that can coordinate better will jam better. I think people forget that jam=/=render your radar useless, it means your range(burnthrough range) of your radar will be shortened.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2018, 10:20
by element1loop
armedupdate wrote:
fbw wrote:
armedupdate wrote:The F-22 now, the F-35 can probably easily track and jam. They will be adding a modern APG-77 with modern architecture in the future.


? The APG-77 has been updated several times already, new CIPs, new MMIC tech, several software upgrades and capability upgrades. Currently update 6 for antenna hardware and software (2019-2021?)

F-22 is still a pretty old plane that needs upgrading to a more modern sensor fusion. Flights that can coordinate better will jam better. I think people forget that jam=/=render your radar useless, it means your range(burnthrough range) of your radar will be shortened.


See this link comment (and so we can also get the conversation back in the correct thread).

viewtopic.php?p=400085#p400085

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 12:23
by marsavian
The F-22 is clearly better at intercepting and destroying fast non-stealthy aircraft as it has supercruise, faster supersonic acceleration, higher top speed/altitude, more powerful radar, 8 missiles as a standard fit vs 4 of the F-35 as well as more gun ammunition. It's perfect as the Raptor it is named after at soaring high and swooping fast on its prey and establishing total air superiority faster.

However against each other it depends. The F-22 missiles will have more range as they generally would be delivered at a higher altitude and higher aircraft speed. In a neutral head on encounter at the same altitude the advantage will probably go to the F-35. F-22 radar is more powerful but F-35 is stealthier (allegedly) so they will probably track each other around 10nm. The F-22's radar/ECM has been continuously upgraded so they can probably both jam each other so their tracking range drops down to about 5nm with jamming.

However the F-35 has EOTS/DAS so in all likelihood it will spot the F-22 on these sensors before it radar does so it can then orientate itself into a better position or even if it doesn't it can use the LRF in its EOTS to get a missile track around 10nm which maybe earlier than its radar does. So in BVR in neutral position the F-35 will probably have the advantage. In WVR range with missiles it depends, the F-22 has the greater kinematic performance allowing it maneuvere into better firing positions earlier however the F-35 has the better sensors with the advantage of DAS/EOTS/HMD meaning it can get better tracking solutions earlier. Down to guns range it's shifts back to F-22 which can do all the maneuvers that F-35 does but quicker and it has more ammunition.

In conclusion both these great aircraft deliver to their specification and both can take each other down but with current sensor specification the F-22 will probably have to work harder for the kill but it has the greater kinematic performance to pull it off.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 14:52
by steve2267
Something I haven't seen discussed explicitly in this latest sub-thread (F-22 & F-35 combined exercise) is the SA-advantage that MADL + HMD would seem to give the F-35 pilots. Who knows which aircraft is stealthier in the RF arena. Call that a wash, or maybe a slight edge to the F-22. By all open source accounts, the F-22 possesses a turning advantage, but how great that is, no one is saying. In the subsonic regime, kinematically, the aircraft are either a wash, or a slight advantage to the F-22.

But the 5th gen aspect to such a 2ship F-35 vs 2ship F-22 fight has to go to the F-35 with DAS + MADL + HMS/HMD. Once one of the F-35's spots an F-22, both F-35s know where it is, both pilots will be cued to it in their helmets, and this sets up one Panther to bounce that Raptor from an advantageous angle -- esp. with AIM-9X. If the Panthers aren't carrying AIM-9X, they may be at a disadvantage then, as AIM-120 vs F-22 probably not nearly as good as AIM-9X vs F-22.

While the Raptors are linked with IFDL, without a helmet mounted sight, esp. without a 360° weapons display, it would seem the Raptor pilots are going to be at somewhat of an OODA loop disadvantage in the Observe and Orient phases. I would expect Hanche and his wingman to try to have developed tactics to exploit or attempt to exploit this advantage.

Maybe someday we'll get to read about these exercises in more detail.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 15:08
by gideonic
Has it really been established that the DAS precursor (whatever it's name was) in F-22 doesn't actually detect and classify aircraft? I see this thrown around a lot as an edge to F-35.

I find it really hard to believe. Just because F-22 doesn't visualize the image doesn't mean it can't use the data it for sensor fusion. And I Can't believe that an IR system, that can detect missiles a long way away, is unable to detect aircraft WVR.

I'm sure DAS works better, has higher resolution and is more tightly integrated, but I would be shocked to learn that the similar system on F-22 is not thoroughly integrated with with all the other Sensor Fusion data.

I'm pretty sure it's at least able to detect the general direction of "something" sneaking up on the aircraft, even if the F-35 isn't emitting. At least if we're talking about WVR distances.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 21 Aug 2018, 15:16
by marsavian
This was discussed before, it's just a MLD at the moment but of course the potential exists to upgrade it to an IRST and probably will happen at MLU.

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=25928

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 21 Sep 2018, 11:41
by krorvik
Next three jets are scheduled to land today at Ørland, bringing the total there to nine.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2019, 20:23
by krorvik
Stumbled across this nice AMRAAM shot today:



In related news, IOC for RNoAF at Ørland AB with 332sqn is still scheduled for end of this year.

338sqn will disband monday, all F-16s will be flown to Bodø for service with 331sqn. Late next week, there will only be F-35 fighters stationed at Ørland.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2019, 13:10
by mixelflick
marsavian wrote:The F-22 is clearly better at intercepting and destroying fast non-stealthy aircraft as it has supercruise, faster supersonic acceleration, higher top speed/altitude, more powerful radar, 8 missiles as a standard fit vs 4 of the F-35 as well as more gun ammunition. It's perfect as the Raptor it is named after at soaring high and swooping fast on its prey and establishing total air superiority faster.

However against each other it depends. The F-22 missiles will have more range as they generally would be delivered at a higher altitude and higher aircraft speed. In a neutral head on encounter at the same altitude the advantage will probably go to the F-35. F-22 radar is more powerful but F-35 is stealthier (allegedly) so they will probably track each other around 10nm. The F-22's radar/ECM has been continuously upgraded so they can probably both jam each other so their tracking range drops down to about 5nm with jamming.

However the F-35 has EOTS/DAS so in all likelihood it will spot the F-22 on these sensors before it radar does so it can then orientate itself into a better position or even if it doesn't it can use the LRF in its EOTS to get a missile track around 10nm which maybe earlier than its radar does. So in BVR in neutral position the F-35 will probably have the advantage. In WVR range with missiles it depends, the F-22 has the greater kinematic performance allowing it maneuvere into better firing positions earlier however the F-35 has the better sensors with the advantage of DAS/EOTS/HMD meaning it can get better tracking solutions earlier. Down to guns range it's shifts back to F-22 which can do all the maneuvers that F-35 does but quicker and it has more ammunition.

In conclusion both these great aircraft deliver to their specification and both can take each other down but with current sensor specification the F-22 will probably have to work harder for the kill but it has the greater kinematic performance to pull it off.


This won't be popular, but I honestly believe the F-22 will win any F-22 vs. 35 engagement rather handily. The reason? The F-22 MUST have some secret sauce the F-35 doesn't, otherwise why would the F-22 be banned from export? And what happens if we sell F-35's to Turkey, they pull an Iran and.....? I have to believe that situation has already been worked up and accounted for. We're selling the F-35 to (almost) anyone with the $. NOBODY (not even Israel) is getting the F-22 - by law.

To me, that speaks volumes...

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2019, 13:31
by marsavian
Sounds like a conspiracy theory ;). The F-22 was not designed for export unlike the F-35 which probably has anti-IP theft features. It's probably no more sinister than that.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2019, 15:37
by spazsinbad
"... F-35 which probably has anti-IP theft features...". Correct. The F-35 has anti-tampering tech built-in & it was ALWAYS designed for export with all the variants being the same for everyone except the public acknowledged differences today.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2019, 03:56
by firebase99
mixelflick wrote:
marsavian wrote:The F-22 is clearly better at intercepting and destroying fast non-stealthy aircraft as it has supercruise, faster supersonic acceleration, higher top speed/altitude, more powerful radar, 8 missiles as a standard fit vs 4 of the F-35 as well as more gun ammunition. It's perfect as the Raptor it is named after at soaring high and swooping fast on its prey and establishing total air superiority faster.

However against each other it depends. The F-22 missiles will have more range as they generally would be delivered at a higher altitude and higher aircraft speed. In a neutral head on encounter at the same altitude the advantage will probably go to the F-35. F-22 radar is more powerful but F-35 is stealthier (allegedly) so they will probably track each other around 10nm. The F-22's radar/ECM has been continuously upgraded so they can probably both jam each other so their tracking range drops down to about 5nm with jamming.

However the F-35 has EOTS/DAS so in all likelihood it will spot the F-22 on these sensors before it radar does so it can then orientate itself into a better position or even if it doesn't it can use the LRF in its EOTS to get a missile track around 10nm which maybe earlier than its radar does. So in BVR in neutral position the F-35 will probably have the advantage. In WVR range with missiles it depends, the F-22 has the greater kinematic performance allowing it maneuvere into better firing positions earlier however the F-35 has the better sensors with the advantage of DAS/EOTS/HMD meaning it can get better tracking solutions earlier. Down to guns range it's shifts back to F-22 which can do all the maneuvers that F-35 does but quicker and it has more ammunition.

In conclusion both these great aircraft deliver to their specification and both can take each other down but with current sensor specification the F-22 will probably have to work harder for the kill but it has the greater kinematic performance to pull it off.


This won't be popular, but I honestly believe the F-22 will win any F-22 vs. 35 engagement rather handily. The reason? The F-22 MUST have some secret sauce the F-35 doesn't, otherwise why would the F-22 be banned from export? And what happens if we sell F-35's to Turkey, they pull an Iran and.....? I have to believe that situation has already been worked up and accounted for. We're selling the F-35 to (almost) anyone with the $. NOBODY (not even Israel) is getting the F-22 - by law.

To me, that speaks volumes...


Im with Mix on this. Didnt Tailslide (I think) state "The LEAST impressive thing about the Raptor is its kinematic performance." Me thinks theres something special under the tarp when it comes to the Raptors A2A game....

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2019, 11:37
by squirrelshoes
I'm not sure the top speed, acceleration, higher altitude, etc. matters that much in an F-35 versus F-22 fight. It would be all about BVR cat and mouse game of trying to passively (or as minimally actively as possible) find the opponent, neither of which suits well to high performance maneuvers. The overwhelming majority of AA kills in modern era are at transonic speeds and medium altitude for a reason.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2019, 12:19
by hornetfinn
firebase99 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:This won't be popular, but I honestly believe the F-22 will win any F-22 vs. 35 engagement rather handily. The reason? The F-22 MUST have some secret sauce the F-35 doesn't, otherwise why would the F-22 be banned from export? And what happens if we sell F-35's to Turkey, they pull an Iran and.....? I have to believe that situation has already been worked up and accounted for. We're selling the F-35 to (almost) anyone with the $. NOBODY (not even Israel) is getting the F-22 - by law.

To me, that speaks volumes...


Im with Mix on this. Didnt Tailslide (I think) state "The LEAST impressive thing about the Raptor is its kinematic performance." Me thinks theres something special under the tarp when it comes to the Raptors A2A game....


That was Lt. Col. “Chip” Berke
https://sldinfo.com/2015/04/the-fifth-g ... formation/

And what made the F-22 different suggests how the F-35 is different.
The F-22 is a very fast and maneuverable aircraft, but that is not where it excels.
It is an information dominant aircraft, a characteristic that the F-35 takes to another level.
“The F-22 is the fastest, the most powerful fighter ever built.
The least impressive thing about the Raptor is how fast it is, and it is really fast.
The least impressive thing about the Raptor is its speed and maneuverability.
It is its ability to master the battlespace is where it is most impressive.”


Basically the most impressive things in F-22 is Situational Awareness. I'd say Stealth is very much tied to SA as it allows much better SA by allowing getting much closer to enemy systems and using sensors much more effectively. Of course Stealth also takes away enemy SA, which means F-22 has much larger SA superiority over even the most advanced enemy when compared to say F-15 against pretty much any kind of enemy.

F-35 will have similar advantages in SA and stealth and very possibly even larger ones (although not that it likely matters much, unless enemy also has true 5th gen fighters). Not surprising that Norway and host of other nations have elected to buy F-35. IMO, F-35 will be just as effective as F-22 against any 4th gen jets. They'd just fight them slightly different ways, F-35 relying more on co-operation, numbers and co-operative SA. F-22 would rely somewhat more on speed and altitude because they can and also because they can't rely nearly as much on co-operation simply because there is much less of them. Of course both would use their advantages in situational awareness (max own SA and minimize enemy SA). The same would be true if they confronted each other.

IMO, if they really fought each other in shooting war, it would very often result in draws and very low missile pK, especially radar guided AAMs. Better chance with IIR guided AIM-9X or ASRAAM, but both usually carry only two of those at most. Gun kills would be possible but I think not easy to achieve with these jets and would not be very common.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2019, 12:23
by botsing
Fantasy book reader: "The F-22 MUST have some secret sauce the F-35 doesn't, otherwise why would the F-22 be banned from export?"

Rational F-16.net member: "The F-35 has anti-tampering tech built-in & it was ALWAYS designed for export."

D&D player: "Im with fantasy book reader on this. Me thinks theres something special under the tarp when it comes to the Raptors A2A game...."

:doh:

p.s. It was David 'Chip' Berke who made the comment about speed and maneuverability being the least impressive thing about the F-22.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2019, 18:14
by lamoey
What does this F-22 discussion do on this thread? Norway never considered any F-22 purchase, to my knowledge.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2019, 18:17
by marsavian
The only thing I would add to what I previously said is that Sidewinders are standard fit with Raptor whereas F-35 has to go out of its way to use them i.e. have wing pylons which undoubtedly will lead to some loss of RCS. If F-22 acquired a DAS like sensor that would also shift the balance too again. However the F-35 is so well balanced in terms of stealth, performance and especially sensors that I would still slighty favor it. It's not a bad little aerial Swiss knife that LMT have built for the 21st century.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2019, 18:21
by marsavian
lamoey wrote:What does this F-22 discussion do on this thread? Norway never considered any F-22 purchase, to my knowledge.


It all spun off from the Norwegian F-35 DACT with F-22s that occurred last August* but you are right if is off-topic now and should continue elsewhere.

* viewtopic.php?p=399784#p399784

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2019, 09:58
by marsavian
'You Haven't Seen Us:' Norway Kicks Tires on Stealthy F-35s as First Exercise Begins

https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... e.html/amp

NORWAY -- The Royal Norwegian Air Force is gearing up to use its F-35 Joint Strike Fighters for its alert mission, intercepting incoming Russian aircraft as they fly into Norwegian airspace.

Before that happens, Norwegian pilots want to train alongside the U.S. Air Force, and will do so in the next few weeks as the biennial Arctic Challenge exercise kicks off in the high north, the term used for the region encompassing the Nordic countries and the Arctic, according to officials in the Ministry of Defense and Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

It will mark Norway's first major exercise for its F-35A variant.

"The U.S. Air Force is a huge reinforcement or potential. We are not enough," said Svein Efjestad, policy director for the department for security and policy operations at Norway's Ministry of Defense.

Efjestad said that pairing with the U.S. in the exercise will bring volume, "tactical training" and advancement. "We do not have the capacity to build on this knowledge ourselves; we have to draw on the bigger partners," he said in an interview.

The foreign ministry official added, "The risk of strategic misunderstanding is better when [using the F-35] … in the high north."

Norway anticipates housing some F-35s at a northern forward operating location in Evenes for the alert mission.

As with any new program, as Norway's F-35A inventory grows, flights are expected to increase, an MoD official said. Lately "we tease the Finns and the Swedes with our activity, saying, you've [missed it] because you haven't seen us," the defense official said.

Three new stealth fighters arrived this week at Ørland Main Air Station, boosting the country's inventory to 12. Seven aircraft belonging to Norway are still at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona.

Manufacturer Lockheed Martin Corp. is scheduled to deliver six aircraft to Norway each year. By September, the country will have 15 aircraft, the minimum needed to declare initial operating capability for the fighter. The government expects to achieve IOC by the end of the year and to fully transition to the F-35 from the F-16 Fighting Falcon by 2022.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2019, 14:45
by steve2267
Can you clarify if the Norway has 12 F-35A's presently in Norway with 7 still @ Luke AFB, or are there only 5 F-35A's in Norway and 7 @ Luke?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2019, 16:31
by blindpilot
steve2267 wrote:Can you clarify if the Norway has 12 F-35A's presently in Norway with 7 still @ Luke AFB, or are there only 5 F-35A's in Norway and 7 @ Luke?


Given the database here has photos of AM-1 through AM-19, I'd say it is safe to assume the former since they clearly have 19 aircraft, and all reports, including said database file, continue to speak of 12 in Norway.

MHO,
BP

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2019, 16:44
by pron
blindpilot wrote:
steve2267 wrote:Can you clarify if the Norway has 12 F-35A's presently in Norway with 7 still @ Luke AFB, or are there only 5 F-35A's in Norway and 7 @ Luke?


Given the database here has photos of AM-1 through AM-19, I'd say it is safe to assume the former since they clearly have 19 aircraft, and all reports, including said database file, continue to speak of 12 in Norway.

MHO,
BP

Yes, it's 12 planes in Norway after the 3 last came 7. may 2019.
The subtitle say - F-35A-flåten på Ørland øker til tolv fly. = F-35A at Ørland are now 12 planes.
https://www.tu.no/artikler/i-dag-kommer ... rge/464455

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2019, 11:19
by pron
Two Norwegian F-35A was in Denmark yesterday for a "noise level" demonstration at Skrydstrup air base.
https://www.facebook.com/Scramblemagazi ... 2652307584

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2019, 13:08
by spazsinbad
mixelflick wrote:
marsavian wrote:....


This won't be popular, but I honestly believe the F-22 will win any F-22 vs. 35 engagement rather handily. The reason? The F-22 MUST have some secret sauce the F-35 doesn't, otherwise why would the F-22 be banned from export? And what happens if we sell F-35's to Turkey, they pull an Iran and.....? I have to believe that situation has already been worked up and accounted for. We're selling the F-35 to (almost) anyone with the $. NOBODY (not even Israel) is getting the F-22 - by law. To me, that speaks volumes...

Come on 'mixelflick' members of this forum have explained AD NAUSEAM why 'the F-22 cannot be exported whilst the F-35 is DESIGNED for export (obvious). The F-35 has ANTI-TAMPER features in it, this feature has been explained here.

'bumtish' started a recent thread: Debunked F-35 myths and FUD - the classics:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=54369&p=399796&hilit=tamper#p399796

Then there is: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=53202&p=370270&hilit=tamper#p370270 [all text here]
FOR Mission To Keep the Secrets 01 May 2010 John Keller : http://www.militaryaerospace.com/index/ ... p_the.html

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2019, 13:36
by mixelflick
spazsinbad wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
marsavian wrote:....


This won't be popular, but I honestly believe the F-22 will win any F-22 vs. 35 engagement rather handily. The reason? The F-22 MUST have some secret sauce the F-35 doesn't, otherwise why would the F-22 be banned from export? And what happens if we sell F-35's to Turkey, they pull an Iran and.....? I have to believe that situation has already been worked up and accounted for. We're selling the F-35 to (almost) anyone with the $. NOBODY (not even Israel) is getting the F-22 - by law. To me, that speaks volumes...

Come on 'mixelflick' members of this forum have explained AD NAUSEAM why 'the F-22 cannot be exported whilst the F-35 is DESIGNED for export (obvious). The F-35 has ANTI-TAMPER features in it, this feature has been explained here.

'bumtish' started a recent thread: Debunked F-35 myths and FUD - the classics:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=54369&p=399796&hilit=tamper#p399796

Then there is: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=53202&p=370270&hilit=tamper#p370270 [all text here]

FOR Mission To Keep the Secrets 01 May 2010 John Keller : http://www.militaryaerospace.com/index/ ... p_the.html


I stand by what I said: The F-22 has attributes that other aircraft (including the F-35) doesn't. I can't tell you what they are, because they're classified. But Burke wouldn't have said what he did if it didn't.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2019, 13:54
by spazsinbad
Pray tell us what the good BERKE said - according to you.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2019, 16:41
by steve2267
What Spaz said... what did Col Burke say? Reference / link(s) please.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2019, 22:56
by spazsinbad
Read also: Hill AFB’s fighter wings demonstrate global reach with F-35A 18 Jun 2019
https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display ... ith-f-35a/
Norwegian F-35 maintainers service American jets in historic first-time visit
21 Jun 2019 Master Sgt. Austin M. May, 52nd Fighter Wing Public Affairs

"ORLAND AIR BASE, Norway (AFNS) -- For the first time outside the U.S., Norwegian and American F-35 Lightning II maintainers worked together on their aircraft June 17. A team of five maintainers and four pilots from the 421st Expeditionary Fighter Squadron deployed to Norway for the historic cross-servicing event, during which the maintenance teams received and turned two American F-35As after their arrival from Finland.

The Norwegian air force already operates a fleet of 12 F-35s at Orland Air Base, and plans to eventually employ 52 of the fifth-generation aircraft throughout Norway. The visit was the first time American F-35s have landed in Norway. “All firsts are special,” said Royal Norwegian Air Force Lt. Col. Eirik Guldvog, 132nd Air Wing executive officer and chief of staff. “For Norway and our European allies, who are entering the fifth-generation fighter era, it’s important to both have the U.S. on board and to train with the other partners around the North Sea. “To have multinational cooperation within these nations and to have a significant F-35-capable force in the North Atlantic, of course that is important,” Guldvog continued. “This is the first step.”

While the visit was short, it was an opportunity to practice seamless integration in preparation for future deployments. “Air operations are often multinational, so it’s important that we train together and find every opportunity to interact on a normal basis,” Guldvog said.

According to U.S. Air Force Capt. Brett Burnside, 421st EFS F-35 pilot, the entire endeavor felt familiar and without any significant challenges. “Even though they are from a different country and speak a different language, they are fighter pilots as we are,” Burnside said. “We simply connected with them on our F-35 datalink and it was just like working with any U.S. F-35 unit.”

Burnside said because Norway is a partner in the F-35 program, it’s extremely important to continue to foster this relationship. Additionally, he said Norway’s geographic location is immensely strategic as they have a large responsibility in quick reaction alert to scramble fighters to intercept hostile aircraft in the arctic region if necessary...."

Source: https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display ... ime-visit/

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2019, 02:21
by optimist
steve2267 wrote:What Spaz said... what did Col Burke say? Reference / link(s) please.

When it was being offered to australia, before the ban. Those that are in the know at the time. Said that there is high tech in the f-22. It isn't the reason why it isn't exported. Aussies have access to higher tech than is in the f-22. We have exchange pilots flying the f-22. Some may recall at the time, there were serious structural issues and talk of the US moving away from the EU and US vs Soviet era weapons. It also came down the the US being able to guarantee the support for the F-22, over the life of foreign sale. We had the F-111 experience. For us, the F-35 was seen as a better option. The rest is politics.

It is as reported and as spaz said, there are no anti tamper features built in and as such the tech is vulnerable and not for general distribution. Uk would have been possible, I doubt whether Japan would have got it, anyway. Even though it was desired by them. His reference to 'even' Israel not being offered it, as if it meant something. Israel would have also been low on the list.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2019, 02:49
by spazsinbad
Properly this segue about 'F-22 for Australia' belongs on the Australian thread where it has been made clear the RAAF NEVER required the F-22. They wanted the all singing all dancing STRIKE FIGHTER wot is F-35A. Nobody offered the F-22 to Australia. It was perhaps mentioned BUT NEVER OFFERED and Oz NEVER WANTED IT. I'll provide reference to go there:

http://www.defence.gov.au/dmo/ceo/record/21FEB.pdf [probably no longer there so go here:]

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=23043&p=307623&hilit=Harvey#p307623 [one of 3 references in thread]

download/file.php?id=21995 21FEB 2007 no F-22 for OZ original.pdf (10Kb)

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2019, 03:01
by optimist
LM had their aussie powerpoint, it may still be on the net somewhere. It was being offered, perhaps not as widely known, or even acknowledged. RAAF didn't request the F-22. When our PM returned from a trip to the US. We went for the all singing and dancing f-35, cancelling the comp we were doing. The Rafale guys were at the airport. He also came back singing praise for a nuke power station and aussies as the world's dumping ground for spent fuel.

Found it and a better one https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Lockheed_Mar ... fing,_2001
There is a U.S. law called the Obey Amendment that prohibited DoD funds to be spent on export efforts for the F-22 Raptor. Despite this, Lockheed Martin, the United States Air Force (USAF) and possibly the State Department did indeed try to do an export effort including high level briefings to Australia back in 2001.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2019, 03:48
by spazsinbad
This is NOT the Autralian thread. You said it yourself: "...RAAF didn't request the F-22...." End of story. Rest is just fluff.

Also in Oz thread: CAF Houston 2002: Case for JSF [not F-22] http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafnews ... ture01.htm

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2019, 04:12
by optimist
There was a US offer, that is the point. Call it fluff if you wish to.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2019, 04:18
by spazsinbad
Yep I do. FLUFF.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2019, 04:33
by Conan
optimist wrote:There was a US offer, that is the point. Call it fluff if you wish to.


An unsolicited L-M briefing is not an offer. Companies provide unsolicited briefings and offers all the time. That’s all there ever was.

No request from RAAF and no requirements work ups within DoD, rather like the situation with F-35B actually...

Now, back to Norway, I guess.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2019, 05:47
by spazsinbad
I'll bite but first thanks for the response 'Conan': "how is that similar to F-35B"? Who said anything about that to Norway?

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2019, 08:44
by optimist
I think he meant the f-35b re Australia, not Norway. I guess it comes under "The rest is politics."

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2019, 09:31
by spazsinbad
:bang: :roll: :doh: This thread is now back to NORWAY (or the HIGHWAY?!) :devil: 8) :shock:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2019, 14:51
by krorvik
It's time for travel recommendations:

https://www.google.no/maps/place/Scandi ... 10.9127367

Yes, close to the highway!

Hell_norway_sign.jpg

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 12:35
by mixelflick
optimist wrote:
steve2267 wrote:What Spaz said... what did Col Burke say? Reference / link(s) please.

When it was being offered to australia, before the ban. Those that are in the know at the time. Said that there is high tech in the f-22. It isn't the reason why it isn't exported. Aussies have access to higher tech than is in the f-22. We have exchange pilots flying the f-22. Some may recall at the time, there were serious structural issues and talk of the US moving away from the EU and US vs Soviet era weapons. It also came down the the US being able to guarantee the support for the F-22, over the life of foreign sale. We had the F-111 experience. For us, the F-35 was seen as a better option. The rest is politics.

It is as reported and as spaz said, there are no anti tamper features built in and as such the tech is vulnerable and not for general distribution. Uk would have been possible, I doubt whether Japan would have got it, anyway. Even though it was desired by them. His reference to 'even' Israel not being offered it, as if it meant something. Israel would have also been low on the list.


I gave my opinion as to why I think the F-22 wasn't exported: It has "something" to it that the F-35 doesn't. You don't like that? Too bad. You're anger is quite telling, and belies the fact there's something very wrong with you, given you can't handle people with an opinion different than yours. Let me guess, you're a liberal...

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2019, 10:15
by doge
I dug mined Norwegian news. 8) (Post will be longer. In advance, I apologize. :notworthy: )
Norway seems quite active in the F-35 news.

Probably, I think these are any the news that has never posted to F-16.net. (If it has been posted, I'm sorry.)
All Norwegian. I used Google Translate.

I picked it all up from here.
Norway Official F-35 Special Site.
https://forsvaret.no/f-35
Norway Ministry of Defense F-35 page.
https://www.regjeringen.no/no/tema/fors ... /id474117/


Norway ver F-35 Facts.
https://www.regjeringen.no/no/tema/fors ... id2353192/
Facts about F-35
Learn more about the various technical solutions in Norway's new fighter aircraft, F-35.
Article | Last updated: 07.11.2017
The F-35 is a so-called multiroll aircraft, which means that it has been built to be able to solve a number of different assignments, both alone and with others. This is also a feature of today's Norwegian F-16, but the F-35 can carry out many more missions without the support of other aircraft or ground stations.

Properties in the air
Norwegian F-16 equipped as a multiroll aircraft. The F-16 must sacrifice a lot of performance in order to carry the necessary equipment to solve multi-role missions. Photo: Morten Hanche
Very often, combat aircraft are described in the form of top speed, engine power, maximum G-load etc. This is relevant data in direct comparisons of different types of aircraft, but has a great weakness: fighter aircraft are mostly sent out on assignments that involve weapons or external systems of one kind or another. To achieve the often described benefits, most combat aircraft must carry minimal weapons and are usually limited to heat-seeking missiles and ammunition for the machine gun on board. An aircraft equipped with both missiles and bombs, extra fuel and sensors, ie multi-roller, will have limited speed and maneuverability in relation to specifications. This applies, for example, to today's F-16. This means that it is very important to distinguish between "theoretical performance" (without weapons and then not capable of performing multi-role missions) and "operational performance" (with weapons).

The F-35 has the ability to carry weapons and fuel internally. This contributes to the aircraft getting considerably better range than previous aircraft due to less air resistance. In relation to today's Norwegian F-16, we estimate that the F-35 will have a full 30% more range with corresponding weapons load. This design also ensures that the F-35 can fly at maximum speed of 1.6 times the speed of sound (Mach 1.6) even with internal weapons. Older aircraft often have tanks and weapons hanging on the wing or abdomen, which results in high air resistance. It again means that it is almost impossible to achieve the performance (primarily speed and G-load) that is often stated for the type of aircraft. The F-35, which has both fuel and weapon load inside the fuselage, thus has reduced air resistance and consequently better acceleration and maneuverability than older aircraft with similar weapons load.

System integration
The biggest advantage of the F-35 lies in the sensors and the other on-board systems. The F-35 has significantly better sensors than previous aircraft, and many more of them - they are also permanently integrated into the aircraft. In addition to being permanently integrated and thus always available, most of the information is compiled from all the sensors and presented as an overall picture to the pilot. Previously, the pilot himself had to activate, control and then analyze the information that came from radar, alert systems and any other systems that might be mounted. On the F-35, all this is gathered in one single image. The pilot can then focus on what is important - solve the mission and make the right decisions.

The most important sensors and systems on board.
AESA radar
Northrop Grumman has developed a new radar specifically for F-35 called APG-81. It belongs to a generation of radars where the radar plate itself does not move. This type of radar is known as AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) and consists of many small radar surfaces that together produce a radar beam that is electronically controlled. Everything is fixed and sealed, which will reduce the need for wear parts and thus maintenance throughout the lifetime. Another advantage of this design is that the radar must now not physically move to point to different targets, either on the ground or in the air. This means that the radar can simultaneously follow several different targets, both in the air and on the ground, and thus gives the pilot much better situation overview. The radar is also built to vary the amount of signals it transmits and steers the beams in the best possible way to avoid being detected and to reduce the ability to manipulate the signals of the opponent's defense systems. It can even use the radar energy to counteract, or "jam" the enemy radar systems, making it even harder to locate the aircraft.

Electro-optical sensors
The F-35 is equipped with two types of fixed electro-optical sensors. The first type is known as the Distributed Aperture System. This consists of six different infrared cameras with very high resolution that are placed around the hull - one in the back, two under the abdomen, one over the nose and two on either side of the cockpit. The system in the aircraft then puts together an overall picture of what the six cameras appear in the helmet of the pilot. When the pilot turns his head, the system shows a picture from the area the pilot sees. That is, if the pilot looks straight down, the helmet shows a picture of the ground below the plane, and not the legs of the pilot. This provides a very good visual situation overview, day and night. The other is the aircraft's electro-optical targeting system, known as EOTS, and located under the nose of the aircraft. This includes a powerful infrared camera that the F-35 can use to find targets both in the air and on the ground. This replaces today's systems worn in their own "pods" on the outside of the aircraft. It also contains a laser measuring device used to control precision-guided weapons against targets on the ground.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2019, 10:19
by doge
Morten "Dolby" Hanche compares F-35 radar to F-16 radar.
https://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampf ... -anapg-81/
F-35 radar sensors (AN / APG-81)
Posted by Morten Hanche, July 5, 2014
Having become acquainted with the F-35 through many tactical simulations, I would like to share some thoughts about the aircraft's sensors. One of the first things that struck me with the F-35 was how good the situation understanding I was flying in the "cockpit". The overview picture on the screens contained more information than I was used to from the F-16. The information was more accurate and presented in time. This was possible because the F-35's sensors are each better than the F-16. In addition, F-35 has more sensors than F-16. Together, the sensors help to give the pilot very good understanding of the situation - the very foundation of all the pilots' decisions.

The radar in the F-35 is required in all phases of a mission. The radar is built to search for vessels in the air, on land and on the sea. The radar in the F-35 is basically different from that of the F-16. The radar in our Norwegian F-16 moves its field of view by mechanically moving the antenna disc. Electric motors move the antenna disc both horizontally and vertically. The radar can thus alternately switch between different targets. Such radars can use about one second to move the antenna disc between two targets that are widely spaced at an angle.

The radar in the F-35 has no moving parts. The antenna disk is fixedly mounted in the hull, and the radar field of vision is instead controlled electronically by phase shifting the signals. This gives more benefits. For example, such a radar typically uses less than one millisecond - 1/1000 second - to move the radar beam from outside to outer edge of the field of view. Another advantage is increased reliability; no moving parts wear. Finally, it is worth mentioning that the fixed antenna helps make the F-35 less visible to other radars - it helps to make the F-35 stealthy.

The radar in the F-35 - AN / APG-81 - has been tested in the air since 2005 and is now a mature sensor. The performance is robust and cannot be compared with today's Norwegian F-16 radars. AN / APG-81 can follow many goals both in the air and on the surface at the same time. In addition, it is capable of generating high resolution images of the ground. In the F-35 world, AN / APG-81 is called a "Multi Function Array" (MFA) - a multifunction antenna. Maybe that's why. In the future, it is also likely that AN / APG-81 can have new and exciting features. Northrop Grumman, which produces AN / APG-81, already carried out a test between aircraft and ground station in 2007, where the radar was used as a data modem. The transfer rate in the first test was several hundred megabits per second. If our F-35 gets this capacity in the long term, it will be possible to transfer, for example, long video sequences in near-real-time, which again demonstrates the development potential throughout the lifetime of the aircraft.



Morten "Dolby" Hanche comparing the DAS to Radar and UV MAWS.
https://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampf ... re-system/
The sensors in the F-35 - Distributed Aperture System
Posted by Morten Hanche, August 27, 2014
In the previous article, I wrote about how the radar in the F-35 helps build the pilot's understanding of the situation. In this article, I will say a little about the "Distributed Aperture System" (DAS) sensor system, which consists of a set of infrared (heat seeking) cameras mounted around the aircraft. DAS "won" originally its place on board the F-35 to alert missiles that were shot at the aircraft, part of what we call "threat alert." to maneuver the fighter plane in relation to the threat. Threat warning is still a major task for DAS today, but the system also has other functions that will often be so important.

First a little more about how a threat alert system works. Missile alerts have been around for a long time. A challenge for missile alerts is always the compromise between early detection and error alerting - that the missile alert mistakenly classifies something as a threat. Generally, high sensitivity means several error alerts. Such systems will therefore rely on one or more different strategies to be able to notify; radar detection, ultraviolet detection and infrared detection.

Radar sends out and receives radio pulses to find missiles that are heading for the fighter plane. Therefore, radar-based warning systems can detect both hot and cold objects, such as a missile at the end of the flight, when the engine has stopped burning. The radar can also "see" missiles through clouds, which an optical system cannot. Missiles stand out because they keep high speed, and it makes it possible to reduce the number of error alerts. The disadvantage of using radar is that it emits electromagnetic radiation that can be detected or disturbed by an enemy. This fits poorly with the F-35's role as "creeping wool blanket". Furthermore, radar-based missile alerts often provide a sector alert, where the threat is only roughly placed in relation to the fighter plane (such as "rear right" or "front left").

Ultraviolet sensors can pick up the powerful ultraviolet radiation from a burning rocket engine. Such sensors can avoid error alerts because burning rocket engines have distinctive signatures. Another important advantage is that the sensor is passive. The disadvantage is that the threat can only be detected as long as the rocket engine is burning. Long-range missiles often fly most of the flight without engine power; The rocket engine gives the missile a powerful puff to begin with. The rest of the flight is pure gliding. Nor can threats be detected through clouds.

Modern infrared sensors are very sensitive, and they can actually detect both the heat of a rocket engine and the friction heat of the missile's body. Therefore, infrared warning systems can also detect long-range missiles approaching the fighter plane in gliding. The disadvantage of such systems is that they can be overwhelmed with information and give many error alerts, nor can they see through clouds.

DAS consists of six infrared cameras built into the F-35's hull. Each camera covers a wide sector, and together the cameras provide visibility in all directions, which we would call "spherical coverage". The six video slots are digitally assembled into one continuous image, and because DAS stays in every direction all the time, the F-35 is unlikely to detect a missile heading for the fighter plane.

The large coverage area also makes it possible to use the information from DAS for other tasks. DAS helps the pilot in the dark by showing a view from the DAS in the pilot's helmet. This image complements the pilot's night camera, which is built into the helmet. The night camera amplifies existing light and relies on some light to work. DAS also works in dumb darkness - for example, under a cloud cover on a moonless night - because the sensors "look" radiated warmth and not reflected light.

Another example is that the pilot can use DAS as a video camera, which is "pointed" to an interesting target in the air or on the ground, but without the DAS cameras themselves moving on. What varies is which digital slice is shown to the pilot on the screen in the cockpit.

DAS also makes it possible to detect other flying objects - not just missiles. The sensitive cameras detect the heat of other aircraft so that they can also be pointed out to other sensors and the pilot; if the DAS sees an interesting heating signature, the F-35 will instruct the other sensors to examine the same area

In technical tests, DAS has now also been used to locate both ballistic missiles and artillery fire. According to the manufacturer Northrop Grumman (who released the video you can see below), DAS is able to detect where a projectile or ballistic missile was shot from, and categorize what kind of firing is involved. This is not a core role for DAS, but shows what potential this system has.

In other words, DAS is a tool that fills several roles - not just notification of missile shots against F-35. As the F-35 matures, DAS is likely to become a very flexible information collection tool.



Morten "Dolby" Hanche's explanation of HMD. (I do not quote because it's long...)
https://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampf ... vanskelig/
https://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampf ... en-i-f-35/


Morten "Dolby" Hanche has commented on Red Flag 17 in the past.
https://forsvaret.no/aktuelt/f-35-knuste-motstanden
F-35 broke the opponents
Published March 1, 2017
The combat aircraft, which Norway receives in the fall, dominated during the world's largest air combat exercise. "The F-35 is a beast," says Norwegian flyer.

With the 20: 1 "kill rate" - that is how many you shoot down for each aircraft you lose yourself - the US Air Force recently dominated the US F-35A Red Flag exercise.

The A model is the same as the Armed Forces will receive, and our first two flights arrive in Norway in November.

One of the Norwegian F-35 pilots, Morten "Dolby" Hanche, is not surprised by the crushing result ..

- With F-35 you will find your opponent long before he finds you. Then you can shoot first and become much more deadly in the air, says Hanche, who daily works in the 62nd Fighter Squadron at Luke Air Force Base in the United States.

The squadron has both Americans, Italians and Norwegians who work together on a daily basis.

UNEVEN MATCH
Hanche says that the air struggles often become very uneven when the fifth generation F-35 - with its stealth features and advanced sensors - meets the previous generation aircraft, such as F-18 and F-16.

- What we see in exercises against other aircraft is that the fight becomes very uneven and that we have all the benefits. It's rarely the opponent at all getting fired shots before the match is over.

"It's hard to defend against something you don't see," he adds.

- IT'S A BEAST
Hanche describes an aircraft that is very fast, easy to maneuver and difficult to detect.

- The fight is really over before it has started. While one party is wondering what is happening, our missiles are already on their way. The F-35 is a beast. It's simply raw.

For the opponents, it also means that there is a psychological effect in going up against an "enemy" that is superior technologically.

- The F-35 is a frightening opponent to meet! You can't catch up when you don't know you're in battle.

HELPING THE "OLD"
In addition to being a strength in itself on the battlefield, with its invisibility and superior sensor capacity, F-35 also helps friendly "old" planes to improve.

- The F-35 sensors are good and let us detect an opponent long before, for example, F-16 would. We can share this information with other own forces. Therefore, the F-35 can in practice make other own forces better: F-35 lets them "see" opponents they would not otherwise know, "Hanche says.

"The F-35 can share target data with both air, sea and ground forces," he adds.

REJECTS PROBLEM MACHINE
There has been a lot of focus on errors and problems along the way in the testing of the new fighter aircraft. This has sometimes frustrated the Norwegian test pilots.

- People have probably had some unrealistic expectations of what is an unfinished and finished product. The whole point of a test period is to uncover the most possible mistakes or things you need to rectify, Hanche explains .

- There has been great openness about the testing of F-35. Therefore, the media has got a lot of "exciting" reading material about the F-35. I think the media has often grasped individual issues, each of which may not be so important. The whole is important.

EARLY INVOLVED
Hanche says that this is far from new, the new is that Norway has been involved in the process at a much earlier time.

- Then there is nothing perfect, just like that. That's how it was with the F-16, says the experienced pilot with thousands of hours behind the levers, even on the F-16.

- We know much more about F-35 than we did about F-16 when we got it. There came many more rabbits out of the hat later, while now we have been from the start and know what we have to relate to. F-35 has been thoroughly tested to a greater extent than the F-16 was in its time.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2019, 10:25
by doge
Overview.
https://forsvaret.no/f-35/verdien
The value of the defense
Published September 17, 2015 12:03. Last updated 3 November 2017 17:20.
These new combat aircraft are among the roughest in the world. The F-35 will do the whole defense better - and Norway more secure.
The defense is in the midst of a major modernization, and the acquisition of F-35 is a central part of this modernization. The new combat aircraft will be a decisive capacity that opens up a wealth of new possibilities for the Armed Forces.

Enhanced sensors and systems enable us to monitor Norway's vast land and sea areas faster and more efficiently. We will also get a better understanding of the situation. This will make the Armed Forces even better able to assert Norwegian sovereignty and security policy interests.

MUCH MORE THAN A NEW F-16
Since 1980, the F-16 was a decisive capacity for the Norwegian Armed Forces, and soon they will be redeemed by the F-35. But the new fighter planes are far more than a replacement for today's hunting aircraft - it is a whole new system that takes the Armed Forces into a new era. Compared with F-16, F-35 will be far better assets to contribute in the future defense of Norway.

The F-35 has all of the fuel tanks, weapons and sensors inside the aircraft. Even with cargo it will fly faster, more powerful and longer than most other similar combat aircraft on the market today. The F-35 also has systems and sensors that make the aircraft superior in air combat.

The first F-35 land in Norway November 3, 2017, and the first two years, the Armed Forces must test and evaluate combat aircraft thoroughly in Norwegian weather and climate conditions. In addition, several departments and academic environments in the Armed Forces must know the new fighter system, and find their role in the new combat aircraft concept.

From 2019, the new combat aircraft will take over tasks from F-16. The F-35 fleet will be fully operational by 2025 .

TECHNOLOGY IN WORLD CLASS
Kampflya has an advanced system that collects and digests all data and measurements from the sensors. The aircraft thus creates a ready-made image that gives the pilot a superior understanding and overview of the situation. This can be used by the pilot for his own benefit to win an air battle.

With F-35, Norway is getting tougher and quicker when it comes to expressions and cut-offs in the north. The sensors make sure that the F-35 will find, follow and identify other aircraft from far greater distances than today. The F-35 can also do this job without discovering other aircraft.

Many of our most important allies and partners have also bought F-35. One common fighter aircraft system will therefore make many more international air operations and other military cooperation much easier and more effective in the future.



Norway's Red Flag 19 Part 1
https://forsvaret.no/aktuelt/norske-fly ... e-red-flag
Norwegian fighter pilots in the world's hottest air exercise
During the Red Flag air exercise in Las Vegas, Norwegian F-35 pilots are given the roughest fighting skills that can be driven.
PUBLISHED MARCH 18, 2019 10:00 .
NEVADA, USA: Exercise Red Flag offers the most demanding, extreme and complex operations we can do, says Lieutenant Colonel Martin "Tintin" Tesli.

He is one of Norway's most experienced F-35 pilots with nearly 400 hours behind in Norway's new multi-role combat aircraft. Despite the experience, the Red Flag exercise at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada has offered intense flights.

"I've been sweating a lot in the cockpit, to put it that way, and that's because of the complexity of the exercise," he says.

For the past four years he has been Norwegian chief of Luke Air Force Base in Phoenix, where Norwegian pilots are trained and certified to fly F-35. Red Flag takes the training a notch further.

- At Luke we learn to fly, at Red Flag we learn to fight.

VALUABLE EXPERIENCE FOR NORWAY
Red Flag is a regular air exercise that is conducted 4–6 times a year and was started based on the experiences the Americans made in the Korean War and the Vietnam War. This edition started March 8 and runs until March 22. F-35 participates for the third time, but this is the first time foreign F-35 pilots are involved. And Norway is from the start.

- This gives us incredibly important experience that we can bring back directly to Norway, says Tesli.

According to the plan, Norwegian F-35 will have operational capabilities within some capacities at year-end. The proceeds from the exercise are therefore worth gold in the build-up of the Norwegian fighter aircraft system in the future, says Tesli.

IT REAL
During the exercise the participants are put on all imaginable samples. Here it is an adversary team with experts on the tactics and operation patterns of real opponents. In addition, the pilots face real challenges in the gigantic training field in the desert north of Las Vegas - not just hostile aircraft, but also air defense, GPS jamming and other electronic warfare. This makes the exercise so close to a real operation one can come.

"When we then send our people into real operations, they have already experienced the most extreme things they can do," said Tintin.

IMPRESSED ABOUT F-35
Tintin has participated in Red Flag earlier, but then as F-16 pilot. He boasts of F-16, but with the F-35, the exercise is a completely different world. New and sophisticated sensors provide a completely different view, and also impresses the aircraft's stealth features - the ability to operate without being detected by the opponent.

- Stealth is one of the most important features of the F-35, and here we are tested. Now I'm back on Red Flag with the hottest we have, and we can do so much more, says Tesli and adds:

- I'm surprised at how extremely good the F-35 system is. I've always known that it's good, but not so good. The airplane has surprised me positively, here I am almost religiously convinced, chuckling the fighter pilot.


Norway's Red Flag 19 Part 2 (I will omit.)
https://forsvaret.no/aktuelt/norsk-flyger-red-flag-2019

Norway's Red Flag 19 Part 3
https://forsvaret.no/aktuelt/f-35-banka ... rane-igjen
F-35 knocks opponents - again
Norway's new combat aircraft deliver better and better in air combat.
PUBLISHED JUNE 27, 2019 16:02 .
Norwegian fighter pilots shone during the US Air Force Red Flag in March. But it also did flya, because the F-35A delivered better in air combat than anyone did earlier. In a letter to the US Congress, signed by 128 retired generals, the plane gets its "kill rate" under practice stated at 28: 1. This means that the F-35 shoots down 28 aircraft for a quarter of an aircraft itself.

Two years ago, the same rate was 20: 1. Norway's new combat aircraft has thus become even more superior in combat. Martin "Tintin" Tesli is Norwegian manager at Luke Air Force Base and one of the country's most experienced fighter pilots. He participated in the practice, but cannot confirm whether the hit rate is correct. Anyway, he is aware that the F-35 is a superior combat aircraft.

- I am surprised at the extremely good F-35 system. I have always known that it is good, but not that it was so good, Tesli says.

BELT BEHIND THE WINGS
Tesli was among the Norwegian aircraft that participated in the last Red Flag. The US air exercise is halved 4–6 times a year, but in March, foreign F-35 airmen participated for the first time.

Exercise is one of the largest and most advanced in the world.

- I have sweated a lot of cockpit to say that, and that's because of the complexity of the exercise, Tesli says and adds:

- Red Flag has changed our understanding of how a fifth generation combat aircraft will work in a conflict. It has once again changed our approach to how we should train in order to utilize the superior capacity we have, best possible.

STILL SURPRISING
He is supported by his colleague "Sigurd" who also participated in Red Flag this spring. He is impressed with the choir's good F-35 delivered during practice.

- I have been impressed with F-35 earlier, but after Red Flag I understand quite well because this is the best of what Norway can buy from fighter aircraft, "Sigurd" says and add:

- I have become even more fond of F-35. The system is so good that you are constantly surprised. It gets a bit like this: "Oh, you managed to find that plane so fast, yes?".

IMPORTANT EXPERIENCE
The Norwegian fighter aircraft fleet is under full construction. One month ago, three new F-35As land on Ørland, and with that, Norway has received 22 of 52 planned aircraft. Towards the end of the year, the Norwegian F-35 fleet says basic operational ability. Training from Red Flag is worth gold in the time to come.

- Exercise gives us unparalleled important experience that we can bring back directly to Norway, says Tesli.

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2019, 10:30
by doge
Norway explains the F-35 with illustrations. (I will post only the image that I liked.)
https://forsvaret.no/f-35/fakta-om-f35
F-35: TEKNOLOGI FOR FREMTIDEN
Published October 26, 2017
1
Interaction - soon everyone can talk to everyone
The F-35 has a number of highly advanced sensors and capabilities no other combat aircraft have today. By talking to surveillance aircraft, ground forces, ships or soldiers, the fighter can provide other units with valuable information. Thus, the Armed Forces can make even better decisions in pressurized situations. The pilot can also get an unparalleled overview of what's happening, with the ability to do more things at once: Fight other aircraft, conduct electronic warfare, fight ground targets, retrieve intelligence, and send and receive data from other friendly forces.
samhandling-new.png

2
F-35 sensors - 360-degree eyes
F-35 comes full of modern technology. Among other things, the pilot can look through his own plane. Cameras placed around the Distributed Aperture System allow the pilot to get a 360-degree picture of what's going on around the plane. The cameras and the advanced helmet make the cockpit actually disappear and the pilot "sits in loose air". In front of the aircraft, under the nose, is the Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS), the world's first sensor that combines various and advanced infrared cameras. With this system, the pilot can see no one else can see.
sensorer-new.png

3
The plane disappears
The sensors and systems in the aircraft assemble a picture from all the cameras on the airframe and show this on the visor of the helmet. The advanced helmet makes the cockpit actually disappear and the pilot "sits in loose air". Looking down the pilot, a picture of the ground below the plane is displayed and not the legs of the pilot. This provides a completely unique visual situation overview.

4
Look without being seen
The F-35 has a low signature and is therefore very difficult to detect for radars and other surveillance systems. The aircraft's design and special paint make it easier to reach a destination directly without being detected. These properties are called stealth - the ability to hide from radar and enemy aircraft.
luft-til-bakke-new.png

5
Superior in the air
The F-35's sensors have such a long range that the fighter plane can identify other aircraft long before it is detected. The F-35 pilot thus gets the opportunity to decide for himself whether to attack or fly around the enemy planes.
overlegen-new.png

6
A330 tanker - petrol station at 10,000 feet
With a tanker, other aircraft can get refilled fuel in the air. An F-35 lays behind the tanker that is carrying a long boom. This is connected to the F-35 via a fuel inlet just behind the fighter's cockpit. Airbus A330 multi-roller tanker and transport aircraft can carry 111,000 kg of fuel, enough to replenish multiple aircraft on one voyage.

7
operation Area
The new combat aircraft will operate from two bases in Norway. The main base will be Ørland Air Station, while Evenes will function as an advanced base. Here, two Norwegian F-35s will be in continuous readiness for NATO and could move out within 15 minutes to identify unknown aircraft. With these two bases and the F-35's range, the planes can be anywhere in the country in minutes.

8
Top speed
The F-35 has a top speed of almost 2000 km / h. Older fighter aircraft, such as the F-16, have a theoretically higher top speed - but can only be achieved for a very limited time, and with no weapon load and extra fuel. This top speed is therefore not much worth for the pilots. The F-35, on the other hand, can utilize its top speed for a long time - even when the aircraft is fully loaded with weapons and fuel.

9
Brake screen for demanding Norwegian conditions
In Norway we operate under extreme winter conditions with low temperatures, strong winds, poor visibility and smooth runways. This means that Norwegian F-35 must be able to land in demanding conditions, and on shorter runways than at the main airports. Norway and the Netherlands lead the work of developing a brake screen for F-35. It can be triggered by landing and quickly reduce aircraft speed. Similar brake screens are available today on the F-16.

:notworthy:

Re: Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Unread postPosted: 21 Oct 2019, 14:48
by doge
Norway F-35 strews flare. 8) (pompompompompompompom)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGmR8UQhI58