Norway to reduce F-35 order?

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marsavian

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Unread post28 Mar 2019, 13:31

Sounds like a conspiracy theory ;). The F-22 was not designed for export unlike the F-35 which probably has anti-IP theft features. It's probably no more sinister than that.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post28 Mar 2019, 15:37

"... F-35 which probably has anti-IP theft features...". Correct. The F-35 has anti-tampering tech built-in & it was ALWAYS designed for export with all the variants being the same for everyone except the public acknowledged differences today.
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firebase99

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Unread post29 Mar 2019, 03:56

mixelflick wrote:
marsavian wrote:The F-22 is clearly better at intercepting and destroying fast non-stealthy aircraft as it has supercruise, faster supersonic acceleration, higher top speed/altitude, more powerful radar, 8 missiles as a standard fit vs 4 of the F-35 as well as more gun ammunition. It's perfect as the Raptor it is named after at soaring high and swooping fast on its prey and establishing total air superiority faster.

However against each other it depends. The F-22 missiles will have more range as they generally would be delivered at a higher altitude and higher aircraft speed. In a neutral head on encounter at the same altitude the advantage will probably go to the F-35. F-22 radar is more powerful but F-35 is stealthier (allegedly) so they will probably track each other around 10nm. The F-22's radar/ECM has been continuously upgraded so they can probably both jam each other so their tracking range drops down to about 5nm with jamming.

However the F-35 has EOTS/DAS so in all likelihood it will spot the F-22 on these sensors before it radar does so it can then orientate itself into a better position or even if it doesn't it can use the LRF in its EOTS to get a missile track around 10nm which maybe earlier than its radar does. So in BVR in neutral position the F-35 will probably have the advantage. In WVR range with missiles it depends, the F-22 has the greater kinematic performance allowing it maneuvere into better firing positions earlier however the F-35 has the better sensors with the advantage of DAS/EOTS/HMD meaning it can get better tracking solutions earlier. Down to guns range it's shifts back to F-22 which can do all the maneuvers that F-35 does but quicker and it has more ammunition.

In conclusion both these great aircraft deliver to their specification and both can take each other down but with current sensor specification the F-22 will probably have to work harder for the kill but it has the greater kinematic performance to pull it off.


This won't be popular, but I honestly believe the F-22 will win any F-22 vs. 35 engagement rather handily. The reason? The F-22 MUST have some secret sauce the F-35 doesn't, otherwise why would the F-22 be banned from export? And what happens if we sell F-35's to Turkey, they pull an Iran and.....? I have to believe that situation has already been worked up and accounted for. We're selling the F-35 to (almost) anyone with the $. NOBODY (not even Israel) is getting the F-22 - by law.

To me, that speaks volumes...


Im with Mix on this. Didnt Tailslide (I think) state "The LEAST impressive thing about the Raptor is its kinematic performance." Me thinks theres something special under the tarp when it comes to the Raptors A2A game....
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squirrelshoes

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Unread post29 Mar 2019, 11:37

I'm not sure the top speed, acceleration, higher altitude, etc. matters that much in an F-35 versus F-22 fight. It would be all about BVR cat and mouse game of trying to passively (or as minimally actively as possible) find the opponent, neither of which suits well to high performance maneuvers. The overwhelming majority of AA kills in modern era are at transonic speeds and medium altitude for a reason.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post29 Mar 2019, 12:19

firebase99 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:This won't be popular, but I honestly believe the F-22 will win any F-22 vs. 35 engagement rather handily. The reason? The F-22 MUST have some secret sauce the F-35 doesn't, otherwise why would the F-22 be banned from export? And what happens if we sell F-35's to Turkey, they pull an Iran and.....? I have to believe that situation has already been worked up and accounted for. We're selling the F-35 to (almost) anyone with the $. NOBODY (not even Israel) is getting the F-22 - by law.

To me, that speaks volumes...


Im with Mix on this. Didnt Tailslide (I think) state "The LEAST impressive thing about the Raptor is its kinematic performance." Me thinks theres something special under the tarp when it comes to the Raptors A2A game....


That was Lt. Col. “Chip” Berke
https://sldinfo.com/2015/04/the-fifth-g ... formation/

And what made the F-22 different suggests how the F-35 is different.
The F-22 is a very fast and maneuverable aircraft, but that is not where it excels.
It is an information dominant aircraft, a characteristic that the F-35 takes to another level.
“The F-22 is the fastest, the most powerful fighter ever built.
The least impressive thing about the Raptor is how fast it is, and it is really fast.
The least impressive thing about the Raptor is its speed and maneuverability.
It is its ability to master the battlespace is where it is most impressive.”


Basically the most impressive things in F-22 is Situational Awareness. I'd say Stealth is very much tied to SA as it allows much better SA by allowing getting much closer to enemy systems and using sensors much more effectively. Of course Stealth also takes away enemy SA, which means F-22 has much larger SA superiority over even the most advanced enemy when compared to say F-15 against pretty much any kind of enemy.

F-35 will have similar advantages in SA and stealth and very possibly even larger ones (although not that it likely matters much, unless enemy also has true 5th gen fighters). Not surprising that Norway and host of other nations have elected to buy F-35. IMO, F-35 will be just as effective as F-22 against any 4th gen jets. They'd just fight them slightly different ways, F-35 relying more on co-operation, numbers and co-operative SA. F-22 would rely somewhat more on speed and altitude because they can and also because they can't rely nearly as much on co-operation simply because there is much less of them. Of course both would use their advantages in situational awareness (max own SA and minimize enemy SA). The same would be true if they confronted each other.

IMO, if they really fought each other in shooting war, it would very often result in draws and very low missile pK, especially radar guided AAMs. Better chance with IIR guided AIM-9X or ASRAAM, but both usually carry only two of those at most. Gun kills would be possible but I think not easy to achieve with these jets and would not be very common.
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botsing

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Unread post29 Mar 2019, 12:23

Fantasy book reader: "The F-22 MUST have some secret sauce the F-35 doesn't, otherwise why would the F-22 be banned from export?"

Rational F-16.net member: "The F-35 has anti-tampering tech built-in & it was ALWAYS designed for export."

D&D player: "Im with fantasy book reader on this. Me thinks theres something special under the tarp when it comes to the Raptors A2A game...."

:doh:

p.s. It was David 'Chip' Berke who made the comment about speed and maneuverability being the least impressive thing about the F-22.
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lamoey

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Unread post29 Mar 2019, 18:14

What does this F-22 discussion do on this thread? Norway never considered any F-22 purchase, to my knowledge.
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marsavian

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Unread post29 Mar 2019, 18:17

The only thing I would add to what I previously said is that Sidewinders are standard fit with Raptor whereas F-35 has to go out of its way to use them i.e. have wing pylons which undoubtedly will lead to some loss of RCS. If F-22 acquired a DAS like sensor that would also shift the balance too again. However the F-35 is so well balanced in terms of stealth, performance and especially sensors that I would still slighty favor it. It's not a bad little aerial Swiss knife that LMT have built for the 21st century.
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marsavian

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Unread post29 Mar 2019, 18:21

lamoey wrote:What does this F-22 discussion do on this thread? Norway never considered any F-22 purchase, to my knowledge.


It all spun off from the Norwegian F-35 DACT with F-22s that occurred last August* but you are right if is off-topic now and should continue elsewhere.

* viewtopic.php?p=399784#p399784
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Unread post11 May 2019, 09:58

'You Haven't Seen Us:' Norway Kicks Tires on Stealthy F-35s as First Exercise Begins

https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... e.html/amp

NORWAY -- The Royal Norwegian Air Force is gearing up to use its F-35 Joint Strike Fighters for its alert mission, intercepting incoming Russian aircraft as they fly into Norwegian airspace.

Before that happens, Norwegian pilots want to train alongside the U.S. Air Force, and will do so in the next few weeks as the biennial Arctic Challenge exercise kicks off in the high north, the term used for the region encompassing the Nordic countries and the Arctic, according to officials in the Ministry of Defense and Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

It will mark Norway's first major exercise for its F-35A variant.

"The U.S. Air Force is a huge reinforcement or potential. We are not enough," said Svein Efjestad, policy director for the department for security and policy operations at Norway's Ministry of Defense.

Efjestad said that pairing with the U.S. in the exercise will bring volume, "tactical training" and advancement. "We do not have the capacity to build on this knowledge ourselves; we have to draw on the bigger partners," he said in an interview.

The foreign ministry official added, "The risk of strategic misunderstanding is better when [using the F-35] … in the high north."

Norway anticipates housing some F-35s at a northern forward operating location in Evenes for the alert mission.

As with any new program, as Norway's F-35A inventory grows, flights are expected to increase, an MoD official said. Lately "we tease the Finns and the Swedes with our activity, saying, you've [missed it] because you haven't seen us," the defense official said.

Three new stealth fighters arrived this week at Ørland Main Air Station, boosting the country's inventory to 12. Seven aircraft belonging to Norway are still at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona.

Manufacturer Lockheed Martin Corp. is scheduled to deliver six aircraft to Norway each year. By September, the country will have 15 aircraft, the minimum needed to declare initial operating capability for the fighter. The government expects to achieve IOC by the end of the year and to fully transition to the F-35 from the F-16 Fighting Falcon by 2022.
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steve2267

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Unread post11 May 2019, 14:45

Can you clarify if the Norway has 12 F-35A's presently in Norway with 7 still @ Luke AFB, or are there only 5 F-35A's in Norway and 7 @ Luke?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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blindpilot

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Unread post11 May 2019, 16:31

steve2267 wrote:Can you clarify if the Norway has 12 F-35A's presently in Norway with 7 still @ Luke AFB, or are there only 5 F-35A's in Norway and 7 @ Luke?


Given the database here has photos of AM-1 through AM-19, I'd say it is safe to assume the former since they clearly have 19 aircraft, and all reports, including said database file, continue to speak of 12 in Norway.

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pron

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Unread post11 May 2019, 16:44

blindpilot wrote:
steve2267 wrote:Can you clarify if the Norway has 12 F-35A's presently in Norway with 7 still @ Luke AFB, or are there only 5 F-35A's in Norway and 7 @ Luke?


Given the database here has photos of AM-1 through AM-19, I'd say it is safe to assume the former since they clearly have 19 aircraft, and all reports, including said database file, continue to speak of 12 in Norway.

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Yes, it's 12 planes in Norway after the 3 last came 7. may 2019.
The subtitle say - F-35A-flåten på Ørland øker til tolv fly. = F-35A at Ørland are now 12 planes.
https://www.tu.no/artikler/i-dag-kommer ... rge/464455
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Unread post23 May 2019, 11:19

Two Norwegian F-35A was in Denmark yesterday for a "noise level" demonstration at Skrydstrup air base.
https://www.facebook.com/Scramblemagazi ... 2652307584
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Unread post23 May 2019, 13:08

mixelflick wrote:
marsavian wrote:....


This won't be popular, but I honestly believe the F-22 will win any F-22 vs. 35 engagement rather handily. The reason? The F-22 MUST have some secret sauce the F-35 doesn't, otherwise why would the F-22 be banned from export? And what happens if we sell F-35's to Turkey, they pull an Iran and.....? I have to believe that situation has already been worked up and accounted for. We're selling the F-35 to (almost) anyone with the $. NOBODY (not even Israel) is getting the F-22 - by law. To me, that speaks volumes...

Come on 'mixelflick' members of this forum have explained AD NAUSEAM why 'the F-22 cannot be exported whilst the F-35 is DESIGNED for export (obvious). The F-35 has ANTI-TAMPER features in it, this feature has been explained here.

'bumtish' started a recent thread: Debunked F-35 myths and FUD - the classics:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=54369&p=399796&hilit=tamper#p399796

Then there is: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=53202&p=370270&hilit=tamper#p370270 [all text here]
FOR Mission To Keep the Secrets 01 May 2010 John Keller : http://www.militaryaerospace.com/index/ ... p_the.html
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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