Norway to reduce F-35 order?

steve2267 · by **steve2267** » 17 Aug 2018, 15:38

Future CONOPS might pair up Panthers and Raptors. I am curious to know if this Norskeman fighter exercise included pairing up one Panther and one Raptor vs the other pair. Though that sort of "experimentation" might better be left to the Weapons School guys.

mor10 · by **mor10** » 17 Aug 2018, 18:16

steve2267 wrote:Future CONOPS might pair up Panthers and Raptors. I am curious to know if this Norskeman fighter exercise included pairing up one Panther and one Raptor vs the other pair. Though that sort of "experimentation" might better be left to the Weapons School guys.

Dolby did mention in the interview that they had successfully share information between the two types of aircrafts, which should mean they had done joint engagements as well as the two types up against each other. He used the words "fairly plug-and-play" for the two to share information and cooperate.

popcorn · by **popcorn** » 18 Aug 2018, 00:58

Waiting for Dolby email reveal on Wikileaks that the F-35s kicked Raptor butt... :devil:

magitsu · by **magitsu** » 18 Aug 2018, 10:59

popcorn wrote:Waiting for Dolby email reveal on Wikileaks that the F-35s kicked Raptor butt...

Since it's lately looked very much like a russian info-op, wikileaks probably won't release favorable F-35 material even if it had some. I guess we probably already have enough juicy bits, like the old rumor that F-35 would've jammed F-22's radar at one point.

steve2267 · by **steve2267** » 18 Aug 2018, 14:48

magitsu wrote:
popcorn wrote:Waiting for Dolby email reveal on Wikileaks that the F-35s kicked Raptor butt...

Since it's lately looked very much like a russian info-op, wikileaks probably won't release favorable F-35 material even if it had some. I guess we probably already have enough juicy bits, like the old rumor that F-35 would've jammed F-22's radar at one point.

There's a thought -- to what extent could this exercise have involved F-35 being able to detect F-22 radar emissions / jam them, OR vice-versa? Though I'd expect that sort of work to have been hammered out back in Dreamland...

squirrelshoes · by **squirrelshoes** » 18 Aug 2018, 22:43

That would be interesting, I wonder each plane would even approach it? Fully passive just trying to pick up RF trace, or actively searching and counting on LPIR to get a track before they are located?

armedupdate · by **armedupdate** » 18 Aug 2018, 23:15

F-22 v F-35 guns only, the F-22 can turn better however the F-35 has DAS so he can see all around, although the Raptor does have a bubble canopy. So it all depends on pilot skill IMO. With missiles in WVR, if merge point on, I expect mutual kills, if turning, the F-35 wins since it has HMD and DAS.

As for BVR, the F-35 obviously will win the game with it's stealthier profile, more advanced sensors, infrared sensors and electronic warfare. F-22 is slated in 2024 I believe to get a IR sensor and more modernized plug-play sensors and modernized sensor fusion so in that case, it can probably take on the F-35 then.

popcorn · by **popcorn** » 19 Aug 2018, 01:53

As they pass each other in a merge and 'fight's on', the F-35 pilot tosses an AIM-9X Blk2 over his shoulder that hits the Raptor in the face as it does it's turn. Lightning pilot shrugs and goes home. :mrgreen:

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 19 Aug 2018, 01:59

popcorn wrote:As they pass each other in a merge and 'fight's on', the F-35 pilot tosses an AIM-9X Blk2 over his shoulder that hits the Raptor in the face as it does it's turn. Lightning pilot shrugs and goes home.

The same can be done with the Aim-120s.

armedupdate · by **armedupdate** » 19 Aug 2018, 05:03

SpudmanWP wrote:
popcorn wrote:As they pass each other in a merge and 'fight's on', the F-35 pilot tosses an AIM-9X Blk2 over his shoulder that hits the Raptor in the face as it does it's turn. Lightning pilot shrugs and goes home.

The same can be done with the Aim-120s.

Not as efficient, AMRAAM is not meant for crazy turns.

"Dogfights" are going to be rare these days. If WVR does happen, probably they will shoot each other head on and both kill each other.

element1loop · by **element1loop** » 19 Aug 2018, 05:32

I'd stay well away from either of those jets.

The possible advantage F-22A has is it can freely use its A2A radar in active search mode with abandon. The F-35 pilot might best be sparring with radar search given it doesn't have the same excess speed and altitude margin.

But if both are fed with a current comprehensive off-board tactical air picture and sensor cues, they're probably equally deady to anything they're likey to face.

In the end I'd want all those attack weapons. In comparison, in 2025 the F-22A seems a bit ... hmm ... passe? Mid-life crisis?

If I'm a bad-guy I'd see the F-35A as the more scarey jet in the mid-2020s IMHO.

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 19 Aug 2018, 05:51

armedupdate wrote:Not as efficient, AMRAAM is not meant for crazy turns.

Several of the recent blocks specifically address HOBS updates. While an AMRAAM can't turn as tight, as a 9x, it's motor burns far longer.

wrightwing · by **wrightwing** » 19 Aug 2018, 08:11

element1loop wrote:I'd stay well away from either of those jets.

The possible advantage F-22A has is it can freely use its A2A radar in active search mode with abandon. The F-35 pilot might best be sparring with radar search given it doesn't have the same excess speed and altitude margin.

But if both are fed with a current comprehensive off-board tactical air picture and sensor cues, they're probably equally deady to anything they're likey to face.

In the end I'd want all those attack weapons. In comparison, in 2025 the F-22A seems a bit ... hmm ... passe? Mid-life crisis?

If I'm a bad-guy I'd see the F-35A as the more scarey jet in the mid-2020s IMHO.

They're both going to be a lot scarier in the 2020s.

squirrelshoes · by **squirrelshoes** » 19 Aug 2018, 13:53

element1loop wrote:The possible advantage F-22A has is it can freely use its A2A radar in active search mode with abandon. The F-35 pilot might best be sparring with radar search given it doesn't have the same excess speed and altitude margin.

Wouldn't an F-22 pilot be concerned that something so good at tracking/identifying passively like F-35 would gain an advantage by locating F-22 first that is actively searching? I mean, if that F-35 picks up location of the F-22 first because it was able to receive and filter the F-22 active in LPRI amongst the noise it would have a huge advantage since could then manage it's own stealth to find a better position outside detection cone of that APG-77.

mor10 · by **mor10** » 19 Aug 2018, 21:26

squirrelshoes wrote:
element1loop wrote:The possible advantage F-22A has is it can freely use its A2A radar in active search mode with abandon. The F-35 pilot might best be sparring with radar search given it doesn't have the same excess speed and altitude margin.

Wouldn't an F-22 pilot be concerned that something so good at tracking/identifying passively like F-35 would gain an advantage by locating F-22 first that is actively searching? I mean, if that F-35 picks up location of the F-22 first because it was able to receive and filter the F-22 active in LPRI amongst the noise it would have a huge advantage since could then manage it's own stealth to find a better position outside detection cone of that APG-77.

I seriously doubt that the F-35 can track the F-22 radar. Not because it is technically impossible, but because there is no reason for the US to allow an F-35 to ever be able to track an F-22. We all know that the F-22 will only be in US service, while it is theoretically possible that an F-35 ends up in a not so friendly country (Turkey).

The same was supposedly the case of the F-16 not being able to track the F-15, on purpose, in earlier days. I doubt the F-16 can't track the F-15 these days though.