Finnish DefMin Interest in F-35s NOT Gripens

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XanderCrews

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Unread post07 Feb 2020, 17:11

loke wrote:
magitsu wrote:
loke wrote:Saab's "VD" (VP?) is "very optimistic" (about Gripen's chances in Finland).

https://pren.corren.se/artikel?redirect ... lback.aspx

Paywall, but the headline is not in any way rooted in any known reality -- how on earth can he be optimistic!? Perhaps he is actually working for LM and just pretends to be working for Saab? If so then he should of course be optimistic.

Kind of necessary, why even stay in the competition otherwise.

Being disconnected from reality is kind of necessary? In Belgium and Denmark at least they were sensible enough to leave the competition. It beats me why they are still in Finland and Canada. Saabs sales organization responsible for Gripen in Finland should read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance



Theyve always been really "blue skies" when it comes to this stuff. Almost optimistic to the point of naivety. then again most sales people/PR people have to be.

but I see your point and eventually it just looks foolish.
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marsavian

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Unread post07 Feb 2020, 18:42

loke wrote:Saab's "VD" (VP?) is "very optimistic" (about Gripen's chances in Finland).

https://pren.corren.se/artikel?redirect ... lback.aspx

Paywall, but the headline is not in any way rooted in any known reality -- how on earth can he be optimistic!? Perhaps he is actually working for LM and just pretends to be working for Saab? If so then he should of course be optimistic.


Maybe because the price is so right they can throw in two AEW birds as a bonus. Perhaps they easily meet the daily six sortie and road basing requirements. Maybe the maintenance cost is right. Maybe existing Hornets were easily beaten in evaluations. Maybe the offset plan looks appealing. Who knows but nothing wrong in being optimistic as a salesman, probably a requisite for the job ;).
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optimist

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Unread post07 Feb 2020, 22:52

linkomart wrote:
optimist wrote:So that is 7 stations and only 3 remaining for weapons (5r ,5l and a 2) . To add the Recce pod to see what's what, you need to take center tank off. So it would be down to 2 tanks,


I thought they said next gen :doh:


No, Reccepod is on stn 4. (unless you have a really big one, they go on 5c. But Litening goes on 4)

you could have weapons on 1,2 (IRIS-T and AMRAAM), Meteror on 5 (3 of them) and two bags on 3.
Gripen is a light figter, and of course it suffers more than bigger aircraft when it carries 2000 lbs bombs. I don't reccomend it. It can do a helluva lot with 1000 lbs bombs, or even better sdb, and you seldom needs 2000 lbs unless you make a hollywood movie or a statement to some caves in a far far away country.

But since the F-16 and F-35 carries more I'm not surprised you like to compare aircrafts with a lot of load.

regards

Isn't it the 4.5gen that want to try and compare themselves to F-35 5th gen? The F-35 base mission parameter is very clear. Carry 2 missiles and 2 2k bombs a long way into contested airspace. Have a dogfight on the way home and arrive back with significant fuel to spare. Instead of answering what they can fulfill of this mission. They go, look over there, it's a squirrel climbing a tree.

This link helps explain the 2k bomb requirement. It would have been a lot easier to build the F-35 to only carry 1k bombs
https://www.airforcemag.com/PDF/Magazin ... ighter.pdf
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Unread post08 Feb 2020, 05:55

2 page PDF of article attached.
Finland's HX battle heats up as rivals submit revised bids
11 Feb 2020 CRAIG HOYLE

"[mostly about Gripen bid]"

Source: Flight International Magazine 11-17 February 2020
Attachments
HX Finland Flight International 11 Feb 2020 pp2.pdf
(348.08 KiB) Downloaded 71 times
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XanderCrews

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Unread post08 Feb 2020, 07:23

linkomart wrote: you seldom needs 2000 lbs unless you make a hollywood movie or a statement to some caves in a far far away country.

But since the F-16 and F-35 carries more I'm not surprised you like to compare aircrafts with a lot of load.

regards


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You just gotta wonder who kept trying to give us the impression it would be such a heavy hauler...

I guess we will never know.
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Unread post08 Feb 2020, 09:29

I shouldn't google, it only annoys me. So this Arexis pod is just starting flight testing? When you talk of the growler pods, you'd be better using the new specs.
https://saabgroup.com/globalassets/cisi ... 472178.pdf
Saab carried out the first flight tests with its new advanced Electronic Attack Jammer Pod (EAJP) with successful results on 4 November 2019.
Last edited by optimist on 08 Feb 2020, 13:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post08 Feb 2020, 10:24

According to the plan the 4-pack of F-35A should have landed in Finland yesterday(Lockheed Martin F-35 7–17 February 2020), but they are stuck at the east-cost because of bad weather it looks.

Bille Flynn updated his twitter 13h ago with this:
Day #5. Ground Hog Day again! Big freeze on the east coast. Check out @thef35 in Climatic Chamber.
Jets are good to go but waiting on weather and tankers. Hope to see everyone at #HXChallenge in Finland soon. First class dining menu in cockpit but only self service! Nähdään pian
https://twitter.com/billieflynn/
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Unread post09 Feb 2020, 20:05

Two arrived at 19.00 local time. Video in tweet.

https://twitter.com/FinnishAirForce/sta ... 6649049089
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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 11:50

New tweet with nice video about the F-35:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1226817792185335812

Today we can expect the remaining two F-35s to land in Finland, so there will be whole flight of them afterall.
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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 15:10

Steve Sheehy, Director Sustainment Strategies & Campaigns at Lockheed Martin affirms that the number of F-35A frames offered is 64. (this must feel like a horse's kick on the mouth to others)
https://ls24.fi/lannen-media/f-35-n-val ... lapidetaan

Assembly of both the engine and the airframe seems to be offered. To a degree that is required to build the necessary knowhow to maintenance the fleet.

""We're not going to tell you how to build stealth, but how to maintain it, and how to make airworthiness decisions," Sheehy says."

https://ls24.fi/lannen-media/f-35-n-val ... lapidetaan

This is also very interesting, even as non-Finland specific F-35 info.

"Finland has announced in the HX project nearly 300 critical fighter-related spare parts that need to be replaced.

"More than half of our parts have never been broken," says Sheehy of the current situation.

However, nearly 500 fighters have already been built and 140 more will be built each year. That is why Lockheed Martin does not see spare parts production and repair as a very good business in Finland.

The company provides Finland with a basic stock of spare parts for the country during peacetime. In addition, in times of crisis, a stockpile to be transferred from abroad to Finland would be available.

- We are just debating how large their share would be. These are related to the amount of training and bases.

It is also intended to reduce the cost of a flight hour by more durable parts and by reducing the number of personnel required for maintenance operations in the country from ten to three."
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marsavian

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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 16:07

Do the Finns fancy downsizing though ;)

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loke

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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 21:37

64 F-35 for 10 billion Euro -- that's a very good price!!! It clearly pays off to not be early adopter. In spite of being a partner nation, Norway will pay close to 100 billion NOK (9.86 billion Euro) for 52 F-35, and 4 of those are for training only... but that includes upgrade to the (single) Norwegian airbase. For some reason we cannot not use the same base as the F-16, it has to be rebuilt in order for it to accept the F-35. Perhaps the Finnish F-18 base does not need that much rebuilding?

Another thing that surprises me, is if Finland manages to cover the operating costs for 64 F-35; according to Norwegian sources, the F-35 operating costs are quite substantial, and much higher than the F-16 operating costs. Salaries are much lower in Finland than Norway of course and that should help a little perhaps.

For some reason Norway always ends up paying much more than others...!!! Annoying if you are a Norwegian. Everything is more expensive here -- F-35, food, beer, cars, everything!

Perhaps we should import F-35 from Finland in the future? Together with some Finnish beer?
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marsavian

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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 23:19

Early adopters always pay more and get less of a product, fact of life. Remember you bought the original F-16A and they had to go through a MLU. Wasn't replacing the F-16s getting urgent and forcing the early buy ? On the bright side you could always top up with some cheap Block 5/6 with Advent engines twenty years hence.
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Unread post10 Feb 2020, 23:26

loke wrote:For some reason Norway always ends up paying much more than others...!!! Annoying if you are a Norwegian. Everything is more expensive here -- F-35, food, beer, cars, everything!


I believe Norway suffers from the Dutch Disease. The whole society seem to be unaffordable. While individual Norwegians seem to have more money than ever, public services are being cut all over the country due to budget cuts. Sooner or later something have to give...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_disease
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Unread post12 Feb 2020, 16:37

Finland launches HX evaluations for F-35A
11 Feb 2020 Gareth Jennings

"Lockheed Martin has officially launched the flight evaluation phase of its F-35A Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) for Finland's HX programme, with a pair of aircraft arriving at Tampere-Pirkkala Airbase north of Helsinki on 9 February.

The two aircraft were part of a flight of four that departed Luke Air Force Base (AFB) in Arizona on 5 February but problems with the aerial refuelling tankers assigned to support the aircraft on their trans-Atlantic crossing meant that only two F-35As were able to make the journey.…"

Source: https://www.janes.com/article/94239/fin ... -for-f-35a
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