Finnish DefMin Interest in F-35s NOT Gripens

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magitsu

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Unread post27 Oct 2019, 13:53

Even if that's life cycle costs like the usual style of RAAF accounting, that's a ton of money.
FiAF probably wouldn't pay for both the old stuff and NGJ, but it looks like it could represent a massive proportion of the overall package.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post28 Oct 2019, 09:45

magitsu wrote:Finnish test schedule at Pirkkala Airport (Tampere, Finland)

10 Jan Eurofighter, 2-3 units
21 Jan Rafale
30 Jan Gripen, E test unit and C
10 Feb F-35, 4 units (like in Switzerland)
19 Feb Super Hornet, 2 SH and 1 Growler

Each has 9 days, which may overlap a bit with with prev/next.


I can't wait for this. I'm definitely doing some plane spotting during those weeks.
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Unread post28 Oct 2019, 17:10

hornetfinn wrote:
magitsu wrote:Finnish test schedule at Pirkkala Airport (Tampere, Finland)

10 Jan Eurofighter, 2-3 units
21 Jan Rafale
30 Jan Gripen, E test unit and C
10 Feb F-35, 4 units (like in Switzerland)
19 Feb Super Hornet, 2 SH and 1 Growler

Each has 9 days, which may overlap a bit with with prev/next.


I can't wait for this. I'm definitely doing some plane spotting during those weeks.



Nice, cant wait to see your pictures. :D And i really hope Finnland will publish the test results like Denmark.
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Unread post28 Oct 2019, 22:29

hornetfinn wrote:
magitsu wrote:Finnish test schedule at Pirkkala Airport (Tampere, Finland)

10 Jan Eurofighter, 2-3 units
21 Jan Rafale
30 Jan Gripen, E test unit and C
10 Feb F-35, 4 units (like in Switzerland)
19 Feb Super Hornet, 2 SH and 1 Growler

Each has 9 days, which may overlap a bit with with prev/next.


I can't wait for this. I'm definitely doing some plane spotting during those weeks.


PERKELEEEEEE !!!!

Get us some pictures !
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magitsu

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Unread post01 Nov 2019, 11:41

Perhaps the F-35 price reduction isn't worth celebrating quite as much as we'd like.

Major General (Eng.) Kari Renko says all manufacturers had trouble fitting their offers in the 10 billion euro budget.
https://twitter.com/Puolustusvoimat/sta ... 0303758339

https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000006292452.html
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Unread post01 Nov 2019, 12:24

Some recent price developments

In the Danish news, my fast translation in bullets:

Price of Denmarks new fighters is falling
30.10.2019 Kl. 16:38

* First ten Danish F-35 will be 12.8% cheaper than assumed
* Price reduction has been achieved a year before planned
* due to "smart procurement" and more effective production according to LM

https://jyllands-posten.dk/indland/ECE1 ... ly-falder/

Btw, seen a lot of mock dogfighting between Finnish Hornets in central Finland. :D
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Unread post01 Nov 2019, 18:16

Rafale version offered is not M, which should come as a no surprise to others than those with an unhealthy fixation to Hornet's carrier equipment.
Last edited by magitsu on 01 Nov 2019, 18:20, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread post01 Nov 2019, 18:18

magitsu wrote:Rafale version offered is not M, which should come as a no surprise to others than those with an unhealthy fixation to Hornet's carrier equipment.

Please point out the fixation - I can't be bothered to search for it.
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magitsu

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Unread post01 Nov 2019, 18:24

spazsinbad wrote:
magitsu wrote:Rafale version offered is not M, which should come as a no surprise to others than those with an unhealthy fixation to Hornet's carrier equipment.

Please point out the fixation - I can't be bothered to search for it.

It's more of a local one. Certain people have gotten used to the idea of sturdy landing hook etc. Leading some people to see Hornet -> Super Hornet just too convenient. Though FiAF has operated also other Navy fighters, starting from Brewster in the WW2. For that one the carrier equipment was removed in the US. They were originally going to USN, but they accepted later delivery lots.

LM's Pranke told that their suggestion for the Finnish Government is to start with a delivery of 6 F-35A (in 2025), after which there would be annual deliveries of 12.
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Unread post01 Nov 2019, 18:28

So no one here has a fixation, at least no one here has expressed any 'fixation'? Why bring that up without being specific?
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Unread post02 Nov 2019, 00:20

"- Each supplier has optimized the number of units in their offer to the budget and the implementation of the required operational capacity. We do not want manufacturers to provide us with 64 fighters, but a package tailored to our needs. However, the starting point has been the exact amount, as our modeling clearly shows that it is good in Finland's large airspace for two-way operation." (Hornet replacement project manager colonel)

https://ruotuvaki.fi/uutinen/-/asset_pu ... nta-etenee

"At least no more fighters are coming than are needed to replace the full capability of current Hornet fighters. According to the Defense Administration, about 64 aircraft will be needed to replace full performance, and of the 64 aircraft, Finland sent a call for tenders in the first phase.

If 10 billion isn't enough to buy 64 fighters with all the necessary support functions and systems, the number of purchased jets will be less than that, government sources say." (state broadcasting corp news article, which paints a picture that 10 Bn is both min and max)

https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11046466
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Unread post03 Nov 2019, 14:43

BAE, Boeing, Dassault and Saab will bring two-seaters. Saab will also bring GlobalEye AEW&C (Bombardier Global 6000), which it probably loans from UAE (none have actually been delivered as of yet https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... xt-spring/).

“They have stated, for example, that the radar can see x kilometers. Now we're checking to see if it really sees."

The terrain and weather conditions in Finland are quite challenging for military technology.

“For example, the Finnish forest landscape is very challenging for imaging SAR. There's often thick cloud cover in the fall and winter, which is challenging for electro-optical sensors (such as the infrared sensor). ”

The alternating temperature on both sides of the zero is more challenging for machines than a severe frost.

In practice, HX candidates have five different operational requirements: air to air, air to land, air to sea, stand-off weapon effects as well as intelligence, control, command and targeting.

Stand-off effects refer to affecting objects that are several hundred kilometers away. In today's Hornets, this capability is handled by JASSM missiles.

A kind of sixth requirement is the decentralized operation of the Air Force: in times of crisis, fighter aircraft can be dispersed to air bases all over Finland, and operations are also carried out from temporary ground bases.


https://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/uutiset/ ... bfc95f413d
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Unread post06 Nov 2019, 10:10

Finland issues call for revised bids to five fighter jet manufacturers
05 Nov 2019 Aleksi Teivainen

"THE FINNISH DEFENCE FORCES has issued a call for revised tenders to the five fighter jet manufacturers vying for the up to 10-billion-euro contract to replace the ageing fleet of F/A-18 Hornets of the Finnish Air Force. The call for tenders was issued on Thursday, 31 October, by the Logistics Command of the Finnish Defence Forces, according to a press release from the Finnish government....

...The supplier candidates were asked to compile the information presented in their initial bids and subsequent negotiations into a cohesive, up-to-date and improved package, and submit their revised bids by 31 January 2020.

“The calls for tenders are supplier-specific, meaning that each supplier’s call for tenders is based on the package it has already offered and the needs to specify it,” a spokesperson for the project explained on Friday.

“The suppliers must put together a package that meets the performance requirements within the maximum budget set for the project. The package must include not only the aircraft, but also the other technical systems, training systems, necessary maintenance equipment, testing equipment and spare parts, as well as weapons, sensors and other type-specific support functions,” they added.

The Ministerial Committee on Economic Policy in October voted in favour of issuing the calls for revised bids and set a 10-billion-euro budget for the acquisition.... The evaluation, then, will serve as the basis for making the final political decision on the acquisition, which is expected in 2021."

Source: https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/fi ... urers.html
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Unread post06 Nov 2019, 10:25

Finland warns fighter contenders to keep their budget-busting offers real
05 Nov 2019 Gerard O'Dwyer

"HELSINKI — Finland has issued a formal notification to industry candidates in its multibillion-dollar fighter program, urging them to keep their proposals within the prescribed budget constraints.

“We do not envisage that we will see withdrawals because of the revised request for quotations. We expect no change there,” said Lauri Puranen, who directs the Finnish Air Forces’ HX-fighter program. He said the move was meant simply to stress the need for all of the five international contenders to respect the program’s €10 billion, or $11.1 billion, limit.

Defense officials here have conceded that all five bidders, including Saab (Gripen), Dassault Rafale, the pan-European Eurofighter Typhoon, Boeing (F/A-18 Super Hornet), Lockheed Martin (F-35) have struggled with the project’s rigid budgetary ceiling.

"The budget set for the HX project has been an issue for all bidders and candidate aircraft,“ said Maj. Gen. Kari Renko, the deputy chief of the Finnish Defense Force’s Logistics Command.

Finland’s recently-elected, conservative-left coalition government has shown no willingness or flexibility to deviate from the billion budget cap. The defense ministry has been instructed to look for a fighter replacement solution within the budgetary range of €7 billion to €10 billion, or $7.7 billion to $11.1 billion...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... fers-real/
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Unread post13 Nov 2019, 04:26

Dassault: "We'll bring 2-3 to the evaluation in Finland, full repertoire except nukes"

Their offer includes 64, some one and some two seaters.

https://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/uutiset/ ... 3a98d579fd

Typhoon offered only one-seaters!

"–If Finland also wants to include two-seat fighters into the deal, we are ready to discuss this further, but [for training purposes] they are not needed." (Paul HItchcock, CEO BAE Systems Finland)

https://www.aamulehti.fi/a/201435061

Dassault confirmed that their 64 fits into the 10 Bn. This could mean that Typhoon is slightly more expensive than Rafale since BAE went with all one-seaters.

"“All five manufacturers are facing challenges [to reach the 10 billion price cap]. Everyone", emphasizes HX project leader Puranen, who spoke at the HX press briefing on Friday."

https://www.uusisuomi.fi/uutiset/ilmavo ... 6999493f41

"“The number of fighters is decreasing rather than increasing [from 64]. It is based on the answers we have received,” Puranen tells HS."

https://www.uusisuomi.fi/uutiset/suomen ... 7c9aed8980
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