Finnish DefMin Interest in F-35s NOT Gripens

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popcorn

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Unread post29 Nov 2018, 01:52

I don't see an exception being made for Finland. Just plug their pilots into the matrix.
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bumtish

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Unread post29 Nov 2018, 02:01

f4u7_corsair wrote:
bumtish wrote:The reason given that pilots from prospect F-35 user countries could not test fly it was that F-35s were tied up in test and training of the first ops squadrons

The vast majority of F-35 partners and FMS customers picked the JSF even before LRIP began, let alone production aircraft took skies, let alone ops training began.


Yes, they were happy with it. it was a discussion in some partner/FMS countries in late testing/early ops stage of the F-35. Now it could even be possible for customers to fly the jet first, if it becomes a hard requirement.
Last edited by bumtish on 29 Nov 2018, 02:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post29 Nov 2018, 02:04

bumtish wrote:The reason given that pilots from prospect F-35 user countries could not test fly it was that F-35s were tied up in test and training of the first ops squadrons, so availability. Now many more are available and most in ops squadrons, hence there should be slots for certifying Finnish pilots for testing the F-35.

Got an URL for your 'quote'/reason please. That is news to me but I look forward to finding out more on that score. Thanks.
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Unread post29 Nov 2018, 02:12

spazsinbad wrote:
bumtish wrote:The reason given that pilots from prospect F-35 user countries could not test fly it was that F-35s were tied up in test and training of the first ops squadrons, so availability. Now many more are available and most in ops squadrons, hence there should be slots for certifying Finnish pilots for testing the F-35.

Got an URL for your 'quote'/reason please. That is news to me but I look forward to finding out more on that score. Thanks.


The Conservative Party in Denmark insisted on test flights with Danish pilots prior to selection in 2015. IIRC they got the availability answer. Sources elude me, memory + google foo is not up to finding the source.

I did find this which describes the situation in Denmark at the time, but somewhat actually contradict what I said since Endre Lunde from the Norwegian programme is qouted as saying that you need to buy the aircraft first.

De eneste lande, som på nuværende tidspunkt har prøvet at flyve F-35 kampflyet, er USA, som står for programmet, Australien og Holland, siger Endre Lunde.

Men hverken de hollandske eller australske piloter har testfløjet flyene, inden de blev købt. De har fløjet dem, fordi de - efter at have købt dem – nu er ved at blive lært op i at flyve dem fra flybasen i Arizona.

- Sådan gælder det generelt. Man får ikke uddannet sine piloter, før man ejer selve flyet. Det er en del af programmet, siger Endre Lunde.


https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/penge/flyeksp ... 35-kampfly

However, the actual reply from the minister to the question posed from the Conservatives would be what matters.

EDIT: found the minister's reply and he evades the question.
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Unread post29 Nov 2018, 03:18

Thanks. We may find out what happens/happened soon enough. First Israeli F-35 pilots only trained in FMS then when two F-35 aircraft were in Israel off they went in them - I guess they had US pilots as chase first time at least (as in the USofA).
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Unread post29 Nov 2018, 08:20

magitsu wrote:National newspaper Iltalehti is hinting that Finland could receive special accommodation to test fly F-35 before buying. None have before.

I guess it makes sense if the FiAF insists on trying each candidate. It's a relatively big competition, and western countries would probably like a data hoover like F-35 exactly in that geographical location to suck as much threat data for everyone to use as possible.


I think such a test flight would give pretty little for all the hazzle and costs involved. Because there are no two-seater F-35s around, it would require pretty extensive and expensive training and work only for couple of test flights. Even then it would give very little real info about the aircraft besides initial impressions in the air. It's easier to go look at what F-35s can do with and against our current Hornets. I think that's what will be done (or might already been done) in joint exercises with USA and other F-35 operator countries.
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lamoey

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Unread post29 Nov 2018, 15:48

They could just fly a couple of their Hornets, across Sweden, to Ørlandet AFB in Norway. That would be the closest opportunity to get their tail feathers whipped by an F-35 :devil:
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Unread post29 Nov 2018, 17:06

lamoey wrote:They could just fly a couple of their Hornets, across Sweden, to Ørlandet AFB in Norway. That would be the closest opportunity to get their tail feathers whipped by an F-35 :devil:



I like this idea
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post29 Nov 2018, 18:02

Just send a few of their pilots through the shorter F-35 transition school. The whole procurement process takes over a year anyways so why not?
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steve2267

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Unread post29 Nov 2018, 18:21

SpudmanWP wrote:Just send a few of their pilots through the shorter F-35 transition school. The whole procurement process takes over a year anyways so why not?


Because the French would be butt hurt that the Finn pilots all wanted to fly the F-35, but no one wanted to fly Ralphy....
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117 & gob of F-22, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well, then bake. Whaddya get? An F-35.
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Unread post29 Nov 2018, 18:32

I have no doubt that Dassault has offered back set rides to anyone who wanted one.

Besides, in a two seat jet, the customer can fly up front with the knowledge that the backseat pilot can take over if needed.
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Unread post29 Nov 2018, 18:33

Or, just give the Finn pilots the chance to "virtually fly" on the actual F-35's simulators used for training.
According to basically all F-35 pilots, the aircraft (F-35) basically acts/behaves in the simulator exactly the same way as in the real world.
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Unread post29 Nov 2018, 19:40

SpudmanWP wrote:I have no doubt that Dassault has offered back set rides to anyone who wanted one.

Besides, in a two seat jet, the customer can fly up front with the knowledge that the backseat pilot can take over if needed.

At least the Chief of Defense has already flown on the backseat of a Rafale. He's a MiG-21 pilot originally and former AF commander. He was Hornet-trained in the US among the first Finns. 2.9k flight hours, not sure how split between MiG and F-18.
He was the first modern Finnish Chief of Defense with a fighter pilot background. Started in 2014, due to retire within a two-three years (59 years).

https://twitter.com/charleslindberg/sta ... 0187406336 (Rafale mid-flight selfie from spring 2015)
https://twitter.com/charleslindberg/sta ... 9045156864 (Typhoon spring 2016)
https://twitter.com/charleslindberg/sta ... 4286190592 (Super Hornet fall 2016)

He's basically flown backseat for all of them except the F-35... (apparently also the fake Gripen E demonstrator)
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Unread post30 Nov 2018, 08:06

ricnunes wrote:Or, just give the Finn pilots the chance to "virtually fly" on the actual F-35's simulators used for training.
According to basically all F-35 pilots, the aircraft (F-35) basically acts/behaves in the simulator exactly the same way as in the real world.


This has already been done according to Finnish Air Force Commander in media meeting early this year. Flying the aircraft was seen as very minor part of the selection process (in that media meeting) and I doubt that it's really important for the selection process.

Btw, Finnish Hornets have also done close-combat exercises against F-22s couple of months ago and according to Lt. Col. in charge of that exercise, it was highly interesting experience and that JHMCS and AIM-9X in Hornet proved effective even against F-22. Whatever that means...
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Unread post30 Nov 2018, 08:39

hornetfinn wrote:JHMCS and AIM-9X in Hornet proved effective even against F-22. Whatever that means...

Even with IR signature reduction measures the F-22's exhaust is still warm. Considering all aspect IR seekers are sensitive enough to lock onto a head-on shot (where the target's body is blocking direct view of the exhaust), it should trivial for the AIM-9X to threaten the F-22 at HMS employment ranges.
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