Finnish DefMin Interest in F-35s NOT Gripens

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talkitron

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Unread post09 Oct 2020, 17:09

Yeah, in terms of armament this is the opposite of the minimalist offers to the Swiss.
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magitsu

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Unread post09 Oct 2020, 17:41

8 NGJ-MB.

AMRAAM doesn't appear but Hornet's C-7's are still rather new. Possibly the same in Switzerland.

No MALD-J or MALD-X either.
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Unread post09 Oct 2020, 20:11

Finland gets the green light to buy F-35, F-18 and billions of dollars in weapons
09 Oct 2020 Valerie Insinna

"WASHINGTON — The U.S. State Department on Oct. 9 approved the sale of the F/A-18EF Super Hornet and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter to Finland, paving the way for the nation to purchase American jets should either Boeing or Lockheed Martin win its ongoing fighter competition....

...The F-35 package, worth $12.5 billion, includes 64 F-35A conventional-takeoff-and-landing jets, 66 Pratt & Whitney F135 engines, and the aircraft’s associated communications and electronic warfare systems. Notably, it contains not only the aircraft’s current logistics system — the troubled Autonomic Logistics Information System — but also its replacement — the Operational Data Integrated Network — which is under development.

Meanwhile, the Super Hornet package — worth an estimated $14.7 billion — includes 50 single-seat F/A-18E jets, eight double-seated F/A-18Fs and 14 EA-18G Growlers, which is the electronic attack variant. The package also includes 166 F414-GE-400 engines for the dual-engine fighter, Sniper targeting pods, AN/APG-79 radars, AN/ALR-67(V)3 electric warfare countermeasures receiving sets, and Next Generation Jammer Midband and advanced electronic attack kits for the EA-18G.

Both offers include a suite of munitions for the aircraft, including 500 Small Diameter Bomb II weapons, 150 AIM-9X missiles, 200 Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile-Extended Range weapons, Joint Standoff Weapons, Joint Direct Attack Munition kits that turn dumb bombs into precision-guided weapons, and assorted test and support gear for training and maintenance....

...Finland --- addressed the price of the packages, which exceed the $12 billion budget set by the country for the total cost of the program. “In the FMS procedure, the quantities and prices proposed for approval are generally set higher than what the purchasing country has indicated in its own request. The purpose of this formality is to avoid the need to submit a new and time-consuming Congressional Notification in the event that the purchasing country makes changes to the procurement package,” it said....

...Despite financial setbacks to the country caused by the COVID-19 pandemic, Finland’s Defence Ministry in August proposed a massive spending boost to the defense budget in 2021, from $2 billion in 2020 to $5.8 billion next year, with much of the increase caused by the HX competition."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... n-weapons/
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boilermaker

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Unread post10 Oct 2020, 01:07

Shouldnt finland use VSTOL types dispersed out to jump out the woods at Soviet migs?
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Unread post10 Oct 2020, 06:27

magitsu wrote:8 NGJ-MB.

AMRAAM doesn't appear but Hornet's C-7's are still rather new. Possibly the same in Switzerland.

No MALD-J or MALD-X either.


Could the Finns want the Meteor instead of AMRAAMs?
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magitsu

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Unread post10 Oct 2020, 10:27

boilermaker wrote:Shouldnt finland use VSTOL types dispersed out to jump out the woods at Soviet migs?

No need. The road bases have accommodated even Draken (told to be the worst) and MiG-21. Runway length is no problem, the main challenge is plane stability upon landing.

Certain Israeli general noted in an interview that the trade offs of B from Israeli perspective are worse than advantages, so it must apply to pretty much everyone except LHD builders (and Singapore).

The Swiss DSCA didn't include AMRAAM either, so they are probably going to appear later in a separate DSCA. Because of the Swiss thing I expect that it's not about wanting Meteor and its integration cost to A.

The packages clearly contain some things that are going to be discarded in favor of other. Like Super Hornet probably doesn't need 32 ATFLIR and 32 Sniper pods (and 1 LItening - FiAF has 12 Litening AT's currently)... when the amount of IRST pods is 25.

JASSM-ER is a sizable range leap (MTCR 300 km doesn't seem to matter these days), but on the other hand the baseline JASSM hasn't been procuced since Lot 15, which is the batch when Finland and Poland bought them.

There hasn't been many AIM-120D (C8) DSCA's overall if I remember right... and neither needs more C7. 260 won't be ready to be offered until 30s.
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Unread post11 Oct 2020, 15:12

That is a pretty comprehensive analysis!
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Unread post11 Oct 2020, 15:31

Above the frisky corporal says this: "...“F-35 unique infrared flares” (to the best of knowledge the aircraft does not carry chaff dispensers)..." below find attached find a 23 page PDF explaining about the F-35 CHAFF de FLARES & some EW stuff.

Graphic from: https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/ ... cation.pdf (1.5Mb) This PDF also attached now....
Attachments
F-35 CHAFF & FLARES pp23.pdf
(6.98 MiB) Downloaded 62 times
F-35_Mission_Systems_Design_Development_and_Verification LM.pdf
(1.37 MiB) Downloaded 46 times
F-35chaffFLAREdispensersFORUM.gif
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energo

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Unread post11 Oct 2020, 18:26

spazsinbad wrote:
[b]Finland gets the green light to buy F-35, F-18 and billions of dollars in weapons[/b


So a comparable equipment and weapons package with a slighly lower procurement cost pr. plane for the F-35, ie. more bang for buck in particular considering stealth capability.

Interestingly no AMRAAMs in the packages. Perhaps the Fins will reuse existing inventory?
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magitsu

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Unread post11 Oct 2020, 19:57

energo wrote:Interestingly no AMRAAMs in the packages. Perhaps the Fins will reuse existing inventory?

Possibly just a later separate DSCA release. Because they seem to be always just Amraam whenever it features.

F-35 DSCA's are quite varied, but Amraam seems to never appear. For example in the Belgian release 2018 there isn't any armament. https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/b ... r-aircraft
2019 Poland is almost a carbon copy with no armament. https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/p ... r-aircraft
2020 Japan's huge release, just the jets again. https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/j ... aircraft-0

So the Swiss and Finnish ones stand out with their armament. Finnish one has ODIN and ALIS mentioned, but Swiss only ALIS. Though it's probably meaningless and both will end up with just Odin and it's just a matter of the packages not being finalized.
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magitsu

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Unread post15 Oct 2020, 20:23

Some clarifications today after the national newspaper wondered why medium air-to-air was a no-show in the DSCA releases.

It ended up with FiAF commander stating that some of the current AMRAAMs (C5? or even the original B?) in stock will bow out by 2030 and the little there's left (C7) will be allotted to NASAMS, which will continue to be used and can utilize them. So even if theoretically the US candidates and everybody except Rafale to a degree could use them, this is done to keep a level playing field within the HX competition. The falling numbers require new purchases anyway and perhaps they aren't truly competitive by then but still usable for SAM.
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energo

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Unread post15 Oct 2020, 20:30

magitsu wrote:Some clarifications today after the national newspaper wondered why medium air-to-air was a no-show in the DSCA releases.

It ended up with FiAF commander stating that some of the current AMRAAMs (C5? or even the original B?) in stock will bow out by 2030 and the little there's left (C7) will be allotted to NASAMS, which will continue to be used and can utilize them. So even if theoretically the US candidates and everybody except Rafale to a degree could use them, this is done to keep a level playing field within the HX competition. The falling numbers require new purchases anyway and perhaps they aren't truly competitive by then but still usable for SAM.


Nice, thank's for the update! :applause:
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magitsu

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Unread post15 Oct 2020, 20:49

I'll add slightly more. It was stated that deliveries are possible during all of those 12 years which the 10 billion euro state funding is spread over. It means that for example some specific weapons could be added after IOC (in 2027). For example AARGM-ER comes to mind for Growler. Not necessarily first priority, but something that you might want after deployments start to roll.

"Each provider will include elements - for example, weapons or sensors that will not be operational until later than 2025,” says Puranen.

https://www.defmin.fi/puolustushallinto ... 10958.blog

This also makes it possible that the eventual significant buy of medium air-to-air is going to be AIM-260/LREW/Peregrine (insert your favorite) instead of AIM-120D.
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Unread post28 Oct 2020, 13:24

MRSAM RFQ is out. Interestingly Raytheon wasn't included (or Saab). Since Kongsberg was, AMRAAM-ER is probably still in contention. But this is clearly a related development to HX air defence role. The budget is meagre since it didn't allow Patriot to be included. So this is different to Switzerland, which seems to invest more in this component as Patriot is in theirs.

So it's either going to be integrated to Raytheon NASAMS II FCS (=new missile alongside AIM-120 and AIM-9) or another sam system to go along.

The Defense Forces Logistics Department sent invitations to tender for the development of high-level air defense
Department of Defense Logistics

The Defense Forces Logistics Department has sent invitations to tender for the development of high-level air defense to five companies. An ongoing project in the Defense Forces aims to improve air defense performance by increasing the dimension of air defense.

Requests for information on the development of high anti-aircraft capabilities were sent in 2018. Responses to the request were received from ten companies, which have now been analyzed. A call for tenders for high control was sent to Diehl Defense (Germany), IAI Israel Aerospace Industries (Israel), Kongsberg Defense & Aerospace AS (Norway), MBDA (UK) and Rafael Advanced Systems (Israel).

The aim is to build a more comprehensive high-level air defense capability and to significantly increase the scope of air defense. High combat capability is built by acquiring an anti-aircraft missile system, which enables combat in all altitude ranges. The performance to be acquired is part of the whole air defense. Possible subsystems to be procured include missile launcher, radar, missiles and related integration.

- Air defense is being developed as an integral part of air defense. The new high-defense system strengthens and complements our existing systems and thus our air defense performance. The system to be acquired is being prepared for use throughout Finland. The high anti-aircraft capability increases the combat capability of our weapon and the freedom of action of fighter combat, says Air Defense Inspector Colonel Mikko Mäntynen from the Army Staff.

The goal is to be ready to enter into a procurement contract by the end of 2022. The system to be acquired is scheduled to be introduced after the mid-2020s. The procurement process is part of the Defense Forces' annual development program and material development funding.

In 2017, the Government's defense report outlined that air defense would be developed in terms of high defense capability and regional coverage of fire use.

The Air Defense Development Program is part of a broader air defense development program.

https://puolustusvoimat.fi/-/puolustusv ... ouspyynnot
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