Finnish DefMin Interest in F-35s NOT Gripens

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spad_s.xiii

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Unread post23 Sep 2020, 01:58

I would almost be surprised if the countries that make their own fighters and pay the main part of the development don´t develop special features only available to themselves, being it US, France or Russia. The employees within the country can be prisoned if they say anything, in case the military wants to keep the existance of the features secret, so as a spokesperson you have to lie. "No comment" is the same as admitting. Or maybe some of them don't even know.

I don't know if that is the case as I usually work with more or less open research and don't have that level of access, but I'd expect it, or at least not be surprised.

I seem to remember that Israel demanded to develop their own EW-system because they suspected that stealth would be more or less irrelevant within 10 years and thought the standard EW-system for the F-35 wasn't good enough for them. So maybe they already have an advantage?

But isn't the important thing for Finland and other countries buying F-35 to get what they are promised and not if US get some extra features/advantages?
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spazsinbad

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Unread post23 Sep 2020, 02:57

IF Finland does not like the way the F-35A is manufactured to the same standard as everyone else (including Israel however they have permission from the JSF partners to add on their software via a hardware black box that can be made available to others) then FINLAND can pass. Meanwhile the F-35i ADIR for Israel appears the same as any other F-35 - remembering there are different BLOCK standards that eventually will or should be upgraded to the same BLOCK standard for all.

AFAIK the USAF will perhaps NOT upgrade their early LRIP F-35As because these will be used to train or be adversary aircraft. So this is how an updated F-35A will be 'downgraded' to an earlier standard for USAF/foreign student training so that these students all receive the same training both flying and ground school / simulator / publications. Later these students go to the updated F-35 in their operational squadron to learn about the new bits and bobs of the later BLOCK standard. No biggie. I guess Israeli students are trained in Israel so they know their ADIR from the getgo.

BTW the F-35 has ANTI TAMPER technology so no one is going to be messing with any of it except without express permission as explained earlier and that is done via a black box available to all so that nothing else gets messed around.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post23 Sep 2020, 07:58

magitsu wrote:Indeed. Bogdan was full of sh*t with saying all F-35 are the same (implying no lesser exports) if that article's statements are true.


For a minute I thought you meant Sergey Bogdan... :P

Anyway, that statement was made years ago well before UAE was ever mentioned as a potential client. I also seriously doubt some of the claims and I think all current F-35s are pretty much equal to all user countries. I also don't think this has any effect on Finnish acquisition. Even if US or even Israeli jets had some superior qualities to those meant for Finland, it would not matter IMO. Even some export grade F-35 would still likely be vastly superior to competitors and likely adversaries.
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Unread post23 Sep 2020, 08:22

hornetfinn wrote:
magitsu wrote:Indeed. Bogdan was full of sh*t with saying all F-35 are the same (implying no lesser exports) if that article's statements are true.


For a minute I thought you meant Sergey Bogdan... :P

Anyway, that statement was made years ago well before UAE was ever mentioned as a potential client. I also seriously doubt some of the claims and I think all current F-35s are pretty much equal to all user countries. I also don't think this has any effect on Finnish acquisition. Even if US or even Israeli jets had some superior qualities to those meant for Finland, it would not matter IMO. Even some export grade F-35 would still likely be vastly superior to competitors and likely adversaries.


I agree....no downgraded export model.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post23 Sep 2020, 18:57

magitsu wrote:Indeed. Bogdan was full of sh*t with saying all F-35 are the same (implying no lesser exports) if that article's statements are true.



yes what a true liar, for not predicting the improved relations between Israel and the UAE leading to possible sales of an as yet undeveloped "lesser export" F-35 variant in the year 2020.

I'd order him shot if he had not retired already.

bear21 wrote:if the content of this article is factually correct, LM has some explaining to do:

<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-emirates-f35-exclusive-idUSKCN26D19T?taid=5f6a1756060cb600013ba59d&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter</span>


do tell.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post23 Sep 2020, 19:01

spazsinbad wrote:IF Finland does not like the way the F-35A is manufactured to the same standard as everyone else (including Israel however they have permission from the JSF partners to add on their software via a hardware black box that can be made available to others) then FINLAND can pass. Meanwhile the F-35i ADIR for Israel appears the same as any other F-35 - remembering there are different BLOCK standards that eventually will or should be upgraded to the same BLOCK standard for all.

AFAIK the USAF will perhaps NOT upgrade their early LRIP F-35As because these will be used to train or be adversary aircraft. So this is how an updated F-35A will be 'downgraded' to an earlier standard for USAF/foreign student training so that these students all receive the same training both flying and ground school / simulator / publications. Later these students go to the updated F-35 in their operational squadron to learn about the new bits and bobs of the later BLOCK standard. No biggie. I guess Israeli students are trained in Israel so they know their ADIR from the getgo.

BTW the F-35 has ANTI TAMPER technology so no one is going to be messing with any of it except without express permission as explained earlier and that is done via a black box available to all so that nothing else gets messed around.


I'm betting that any kind of "Secrets" between the various "types" of F-35s in foreign training has much to do with IP protection, more than super duper government secrets. You should see the kind of "no you show your cards first" that happens with rivals. Remember that Boeing and LM worked on F-22 and the "no u" and "don't show them too much" stuff that was being whispered around was extensive as they are rivals on the defense scene...
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XanderCrews

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Unread post23 Sep 2020, 19:22

spad_s.xiii wrote:I would almost be surprised if the countries that make their own fighters and pay the main part of the development don´t develop special features only available to themselves, being it US, France or Russia. The employees within the country can be prisoned if they say anything, in case the military wants to keep the existance of the features secret, so as a spokesperson you have to lie. "No comment" is the same as admitting. Or maybe some of them don't even know.


I've "no comment"-ed on plenty of things I simply don't want to talk about, too complicated, political, or even technically legal imnplications. etc The 5th amendment is a beautiful thing, and people should practice it far more often than they do.


I seem to remember that Israel demanded to develop their own EW-system because they suspected that stealth would be more or less irrelevant within 10 years and thought the standard EW-system for the F-35 wasn't good enough for them.


Israel wants to keep its avionics industry alive, and that was the reason they gave. Actually I think we are coming up on 10 years since they said that as well? its been a while I know

So maybe they already have an advantage?


They should if the hype is to be believed. F-35 should be superior to all F-35s with the secret Israeli whizbang sauce.

But isn't the important thing for Finland and other countries buying F-35 to get what they are promised and not if US get some extra features/advantages?


yes.

to read this like a lawyer, "what they are promised" is what they are promised. If they are not promised other exclusivities, and don't receive them that is not a violation of the contract.

The dirty little secret of the American F-35 is the bigger cup holder and the US Marine Versions have a deeper ejection seat pan to make room for the brass ones.


Don't tell anyone I told you that. Its like hyper classified.
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ricnunes

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Unread post25 Sep 2020, 16:17

XanderCrews wrote:The dirty little secret of the American F-35 is the bigger cup holder and the US Marine Versions have a deeper ejection seat pan to make room for the brass ones.


Don't tell anyone I told you that. Its like hyper classified.


LOL :mrgreen:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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magitsu

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Unread post28 Sep 2020, 08:59

Saab's spices for the HX:

EAJP (Electronic Attack Jammer Pod)
LADM (Lightweight Air-launched Decoy Missile).

In variable stages of design/testing ofc, so kind of hard to gauge them past marketing.
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steve2267

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Unread post28 Sep 2020, 18:30

magitsu wrote:Saab's spices for the HX:

EAJP (Electronic Attack Jammer Pod)
LADM (Lightweight Air-launched Decoy Missile).

In variable stages of design/testing ofc, so kind of hard to gauge them past marketing.


The corresponding F-35 equivalents are
  • ALQ-239 (built-in / internal / standard equipment)
  • MALD-J
correct?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post28 Sep 2020, 18:54

steve2267 wrote:The corresponding F-35 equivalents are
  • ALQ-239 (built-in / internal / standard equipment)
  • MALD-J
correct?

ALQ-239, the Wormhole Generator

Is MALD-J a Program of Record for F-35?
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steve2267

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Unread post28 Sep 2020, 20:07

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
Is MALD-J a Program of Record for F-35?


Good question. I guess I figgerred that it will be integrated sooner or later (or could be) if it is not already / or slated to be.

I mean... if the Swedes can fling FUD... why can't we? :drool:
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post30 Sep 2020, 12:02

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
steve2267 wrote:The corresponding F-35 equivalents are
  • ALQ-239 (built-in / internal / standard equipment)
  • MALD-J
correct?

ALQ-239, the Wormhole Generator

Is MALD-J a Program of Record for F-35?


Not sure, but USN has ordered MALD-N/MALD-X which is an improved version of MALD-J. I've seen it mentioned that any aircraft that can carry AMRAAMs can also carry and use MALD-N/X. Not entirely sure as I could not find a very good source for that claim.

Anyway, I'd say that Super Hornet offer would have a lot more to gain byincluding MALD-N/X to Finnish competition. I think F-35 doesn't need it for likely Finnish scenarios. It might be preferable to include weapons rather than decoy missiles.
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bear21

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Unread post30 Sep 2020, 21:12

steve2267:
The corresponding F-35 equivalents are
- ALQ-239 (built-in / internal / standard equipment)
- MALD-J


The ASQ-239 is an X band jammer (8-12Ghz, for jamming tracking radars), the EAJP VHF, UHF, L, S band jammer (0.1-4.5Ghz, to jam search radars and com). They are not the same thing. In fact they couldn't be more different.
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ricnunes

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Unread post30 Sep 2020, 22:31

bear21 wrote:The ASQ-239 is an X band jammer (8-12Ghz, for jamming tracking radars), the EAJP VHF, UHF, L, S band jammer (0.1-4.5Ghz, to jam search radars and com). They are not the same thing. In fact they couldn't be more different.


It doesn't seem to be that way.
According to the following:
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/R44572.pdf

According to Lockheed officials these EW capabilities are designed to provide: wide-frequency coverage,28 quick reaction time, high sensitivity and probability of intercept, accurate direction finding, track multiple aircraft, and provide self-protection countermeasures and jamming.


28 LtGen Steven Rudder has stated to the Senate Armed Services Committee that the F-35 can providing jamming across most frequencies, however there are deficiencies which can only be provided by the EA-18G. Statement of Lieutenant General Steven Rudder before the Senate Armed Services Committee Subcommittee on Seapower [hearing] on Navy and Marine Corps Aviation Programs in Review, March 6, 2018, pp. 57-58.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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