Finnish DefMin Interest in F-35s NOT Gripens

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Corsair1963

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 6890
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 04:14

Unread post17 Sep 2020, 10:32

magitsu wrote:Budgetary smooth sailing continues. HX project got its 1.7 billion extra allotted for 2021 budget. Total FDF spending 4.87 billion in 2021, representing 54% increase to the current year. So C-19 didn't matter whatsoever.
2% gdp share was cracked and will continue for the next five years.

An increase of over 50 percent in the defense budget. :)


I am sure Russia's continued "bad behavior" has something to do with it.... :shock:
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3221
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post17 Sep 2020, 11:18

magitsu wrote:Budgetary smooth sailing continues. HX project got its 1.7 billion extra allotted for 2021 budget. Total FDF spending 4.87 billion in 2021, representing 54% increase to the current year. So C-19 didn't matter whatsoever.
2% gdp share was cracked and will continue for the next five years.

An increase of over 50 percent in the defense budget. :)


:D That's something not seen very often... I'm really pleasantly surprised how smoothly this whole project has gone through political and budgetary processes. Hope and believe that this trend continues.
Offline

energo

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 571
  • Joined: 09 Dec 2007, 14:06

Unread post18 Sep 2020, 23:58

talkitron wrote:Here's a fun recap of the reasons Finland bought the classic Hornets over F-16s, MiG-29s, and Mirages the last time Finland had a fighter competition. It's in Finnish so use Google Translate or similar software.

https://www.iltalehti.fi/kotimaa/a/201707022200238131


Grrrreat find, mucho thank's! :mrgreen:

On another note, the Hornet has already been phased out of US service while the Viper i still going strong. That possibly changes the Fins orginial LCC projections.
Offline

magitsu

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 646
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post19 Sep 2020, 07:37

Only USN. USMC is even updating many of theirs with AESA radar, something which didn't align with the Finnish MLU. Which was done slighly before the original plan. That move was indeed affected by the USN phaseout.
Offline

magitsu

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 646
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post19 Sep 2020, 15:26

Video from today's Southern Finland Air Defence Seminar. Lockheed Martin's (ex-USAF pilot, ex-military attache to Finland) Shugato Davis talks starting from 38.15 about F-35. He starts in very good Finnish, but out of modesty changes to English. The audio quality gets worse once he wonders away from the booth and the slides shown are in Finnish, but it can still be worth a look.

46 mins could be the start of something interesting. F-35's capabilities. Well, not really, quite basic differences between fighter generations. At 50 mins (blue Finnish map is shown at that point) he explains about the relevance of stealth in the Finnish operating environment in lieu of S-400. That could be worth listening. But the answer is quite meh, less time dodging the S-400 bubbles with F-35.

59.10 is where the true magic happens. He starts talking about applications for DAS. With a slide titled advance warning of ballistic missiles. Then at 1h1 min after showing a video of DAS detecting a ballistic missile launch he states that in other occasions DAS has been able to detect a similar launch from 1000 miles away,

1.12.30 "As I was joking with the (BMD) example before. NASAMS could launch a missile, never even see the target just knowing the missile target is there. We would provide, the F-35 would provide the guidance information to NASAMS unit on the ground. That would be doable." He started that answer by referring to a test in Mexico, which I didn't hear properly. Possibly refers to this kind of things: https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display ... er-across/

https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1jMKgXvAPZOGL
Offline

hkultala

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 50
  • Joined: 11 Sep 2018, 08:02

Unread post20 Sep 2020, 22:02

energo wrote:On another note, the Hornet has already been phased out of US service while the Viper i still going strong. That possibly changes the Fins orginial LCC projections.


No, it has only been phased out from USN.

LOTS of F-18C/Ds are still being used by USMC; Lots of those planes have been transferred from USN to USMC, and USMC plans to use those for so long that they are upgrading those with new AN/APG-79(v4) AESA radars.
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3221
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post21 Sep 2020, 09:59

magitsu wrote:Video from today's Southern Finland Air Defence Seminar. Lockheed Martin's (ex-USAF pilot, ex-military attache to Finland) Shugato Davis talks starting from 38.15 about F-35. He starts in very good Finnish, but out of modesty changes to English. The audio quality gets worse once he wonders away from the booth and the slides shown are in Finnish, but it can still be worth a look.


Whoa, thank you for that magitsu! I agree that his Finnish is outstanding and I'm sure he could've done the whole presentation in Finnish. He was way too modest for that effort and I hope somebody told him that. I'm definitely going to follow him on Twitter... :D

Anyway, very interesting presentation and I wish it was clearer (both video and audio). There is definitely better version somewhere, maybe we can find that. But I'm sure F-35 would really have a lot of synergies with NASAMS and also that planned longer ranged system (which could be just AMRAAM-ER or ESSM on NASAMS or it could be Patriot or SAMP/T for example).
Offline

magitsu

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 646
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post21 Sep 2020, 12:25

It really couldn't be Patriot or SAMP/T due to low budget currently reserved for it. In any case adding anything to NASAMS won't make it more than a short-mid range air defence system. So the long range is another discussion.
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4153
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post21 Sep 2020, 14:12

hkultala wrote:
energo wrote:On another note, the Hornet has already been phased out of US service while the Viper i still going strong. That possibly changes the Fins orginial LCC projections.


No, it has only been phased out from USN.

LOTS of F-18C/Ds are still being used by USMC; Lots of those planes have been transferred from USN to USMC, and USMC plans to use those for so long that they are upgrading those with new AN/APG-79(v4) AESA radars.


I understand they're slated to be phased out of service in 2030.

Which means I'll be trying my absolute best to live that long, just so I can watch it happen.. :devil:
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 6441
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post21 Sep 2020, 21:42

hkultala wrote:
energo wrote:On another note, the Hornet has already been phased out of US service while the Viper i still going strong. That possibly changes the Fins orginial LCC projections.


No, it has only been phased out from USN.

LOTS of F-18C/Ds are still being used by USMC; Lots of those planes have been transferred from USN to USMC, and USMC plans to use those for so long that they are upgrading those with new AN/APG-79(v4) AESA radars.



2030 is the limit for now, but it changes all the time. Its looking like the classic hornets are getting "swept up" in Super Hornet Upgrades, and since the USMC's Hornets will likely still be gracing the USN's decks I'm sure they were happy to have that. in fact one could look at that as the increasing desperation of the Legacy bugs old avionics to the point where an upgrade was necessary even for a relatively short life span. AESA's are nice because you don't have to tinker with them nearly as much. Like next to none in fact. Compared with trying to get the old sets to function this is going to be a godsend and you might even see more "maintainance and spare parts saving" style upgrades as things continue.

Its not really a matter of longevity is what I'm trying to say. We upgraded the Harrier with AMRAAM and it has less than 10 years service left as well
Choose Crews
Offline

energo

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 571
  • Joined: 09 Dec 2007, 14:06

Unread post21 Sep 2020, 22:23

hkultala wrote:
energo wrote:On another note, the Hornet has already been phased out of US service while the Viper i still going strong. That possibly changes the Fins orginial LCC projections.


No, it has only been phased out from USN.

LOTS of F-18C/Ds are still being used by USMC; Lots of those planes have been transferred from USN to USMC, and USMC plans to use those for so long that they are upgrading those with new AN/APG-79(v4) AESA radars.


I stand corrected, thank's!
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 24751
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post21 Sep 2020, 22:31

Just a probably irrelevant sidebar to 'XC' comment about reliability of 'radars' of old. Back in the dreamtime the A-4C and onwards radar was so unreliable and needed so much fixin' that 'when ashore' the radar front panel display would NOT be screwed tight into the front instrument panel to make it easier to be removed (I guess during ground maintenance fitting then removing the display during ground tests as well). So a bad habit developed to NOT screw the display panel in tight.

At least several USN A-4s were lost after catapulting with unknown cause. They would all pitch up and roll left stalling into the water with no attempt by pilot to eject or talk on radio. Until... happily... the first test catapult of an A4G from HMAS Melbourne experienced the same effect but recovered OK to short field arrest OK back at NAS Nowra. STOP me if you've heard this story before.... Luckily the A4G was lightweight compared to usual catapult weight with increased OOOmph because it was the first (the same increased OOOmph is also given to the first newbie catapult after their first arrest for safety margin). Anyhoo the extra airspeed gave our excellent A4G pilot LCDR John Da Costa the ability to take control via the electric trim buttons. WHY? Because the radar display panel unit was ejected into his lap during the catapult because it was not secured properly (see above reason - oh the pain of unreliable unworthy radar maintenance bad habits). This unit was large, heavy and could not be moved once it was out in the lap of the pilot, jamming the controls back and to the left, making it impossible for him to eject. So it goes. Hooray for reliable and worthy radars (the A-4 radar was basically useless but that is another story altogether). <sigh>
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

bear21

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 9
  • Joined: 27 Jul 2020, 09:12

Unread post22 Sep 2020, 20:54

if the content of this article is factually correct, LM has some explaining to do:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-isra ... ce=twitter
Offline

magitsu

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 646
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post22 Sep 2020, 23:55

Indeed. Bogdan was full of sh*t with saying all F-35 are the same (implying no lesser exports) if that article's statements are true.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 24751
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post23 Sep 2020, 01:28

For whatever reason the UAE FUD has been posted here - how about posting it in the UAE thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=53599&p=444831#p444831
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
PreviousNext

Return to Program and politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests