Finnish DefMin Interest in F-35s NOT Gripens

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

playloud

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 292
  • Joined: 13 Nov 2006, 04:07

Unread post01 Jun 2020, 16:24

Corsair1963 wrote:Won't be long and the F-35 will be able to carry 4 Air to Air Missiles internally with the same weapons load. :wink:

I don't think Sidekick is going to allow 4 missiles with the bombs. It's only going to allow 6 internal missiles, is it not?
Offline

magitsu

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 592
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3963
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post05 Jun 2020, 14:30

ricnunes wrote:Xander's image above prompted me to search and re-post the following "classic" below (from circa 2010 if I'm not mistaken) which was stored in my HDD:

Image


You could put a LOT of aircraft in the Gripen picture and that would be true. But the reason you see Gripen highlighted IMO is their (Gripen fanboys) constant state of delusion where Gripen can do all (or most) of this.

SAAB would be much better served to formulate a more honest value proposition: "We've developed a low cost per flight hour fighter-bomber adquate for smaller countries defense needs". Then market appropriately to those smaller countries requiring less capability.

Otherwise, it's a lightweight trying to take on heavyweights. There's a reason there are weight classes in MMA, Boxing etc. Same applies here IMO..
Offline

magitsu

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 592
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post06 Jun 2020, 13:28

HX project is aiming to resume the negotiations come early Fall.
They expect 30-40 strong parties from each tenderer. Now they are making sure that it can happen from each country. This part can't be remoted because of the security requirements.

If this goes according to plan, then the last offer will be sent by the end of the year, leading to an award by the end of 2021. Even if there's around 2 month delay they expect to be able to do it in 2021.
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3094
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post08 Jun 2020, 10:45

This is a new video by the Finnish Defence Forces about what they think current or near future battlefield would look like in Finland. It includes also some Finnish Hornets in action, both in air-to-air and air-to-ground. Naturally this is the kind of environment where HX candidates would be operating in. Of course this is just a video for the public but does give some insight into our environment. This has English subtitles, so makes it a bit easier to follow... :D
Offline

talkitron

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 455
  • Joined: 07 Nov 2007, 10:55

Unread post08 Jun 2020, 20:16

Thanks for the movie link. I enjoyed watching it.
Offline

marauder2048

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1032
  • Joined: 14 Mar 2012, 06:46

Unread post08 Jun 2020, 21:25

talkitron wrote:Thanks for the movie link. I enjoyed watching it.


It's my second favorite Finnish movie after Talvisota.

Practical questions time: Isn't Finland's defense against the Russians complicated by the
presence of so much Russian equipment in Finnish service?
Offline
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2698
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post08 Jun 2020, 21:47

playloud wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Won't be long and the F-35 will be able to carry 4 Air to Air Missiles internally with the same weapons load. :wink:

I don't think Sidekick is going to allow 4 missiles with the bombs. It's only going to allow 6 internal missiles, is it not?


I could be wrong but I believe that Corsair is pointing to a 'small' inaccuracy with the picture that I previously posted. That picture states the Gripen E as carrying 2 x 2000lb bombs but as it was discussed in the past, those 2 bombs carried by the Gripen are actually 1000lb bombs (and not 2000lb bombs) since this would be the heaviest ordinance that the Gripen could carry on those 2 fuselage pylons.
This being said, the Gripen on the picture would be carrying 4 AAMs and 2000lb in air-to-ground ordinance/bombs (in the form of 2 x 1000lb bombs). With Sidekick the F-35 would be able to carry 4 AAMs all internal (3 in one bay with Sidekick and the other AAM in the 'second bay') and 1 x 2000lb bomb (in the 'second bay') also internally.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
Offline

magitsu

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 592
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post09 Jun 2020, 00:28

marauder2048 wrote:Practical questions time: Isn't Finland's defense against the Russians complicated by the presence of so much Russian equipment in Finnish service?

Well, it's mostly limited to quite basic gear these days. Like PKM, which is just excellent.
BMP-2, MT-LB and 2S1 Gvozdika (and D-30, but that's basic towed art for the reserve) are probably the most notable. Also a few leftover pieces like T-55M for training duty in the most remote garrisons. They are on their way out, but since their numbers are relatively high due to the massive conscript army they will be used until they are really 100% done. It's very unlikely that they could be replaced with even close to the same numbers they have now. Due to this they've bought recently for example Sweden's half-used MT-LBs for almost nothing. All-professional armies wouldn't touch them with a barge pole at that point, but some of the deals are just great value for money.

At least there isn't MiG-29 or Su around like in some eastern Nato countries.

Those systems that need to be networked but weren't feasible to be made Nato-compatible were retired. Like Buk-M1 for Nasams.
Offline
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2698
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post09 Jun 2020, 15:03

Oh and by the way, thanks for the video hornetfinn :thumb:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 24417
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post19 Jun 2020, 23:02

Finnish auditor reveals breakdown for HX procurement
18 Jun 2020 Charles Forrester

"The National Audit Office of Finland (NAOF) issued a report on 17 June covering the HX fighter aircraft procurement and Squadron 2020 (SQ2020) multirole corvette acquisition, revealing a lower package price for the fighter procurement programme.

In the figures released by the NAOF, the authorised funds for the procurement (or procurement authority) of the aircraft, weapons, and sensors was valued at a maximum of EUR9.3 billion (USD10.4 billion), while a further EUR500 million was allocated to “other funding for the procurement”.

A spokesperson for the HX programme office confirmed the amounts to Janes , with the EUR500 million being used to cover costs such as the integrating the new aircraft into the country’s defence system, sending pilots and technical personnel abroad for training at the early stages of acquisition and fielding, and providing a risk reserve as well as funding possible contract amendments or additions. The estimated cost of the construction of any new security-critical infrastructure will be considered respectively and for each candidate specifically, they added.

The NAOF report also confirmed that two mid-life upgrades are scheduled to take place in 2040/41 and 2050/51, with a scheduled investment of EUR1 billion each in 2020 values.

A contentious point regarding the annual spend on operations and maintenance (O&M) costs arose between the HX programme office and the NAOF. According to the NAOF report, the O&M budget that was provided by the Finnish government for the new platform would be a maximum of EUR270 million per year, 10% of annual defence expenditure. This would give the overall capability a cost of EUR20 billion in 2020 values out to 2060."

Graphic: https://www.janes.com/images/default-so ... n-6561.jpg

Source: https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... ment_10267
Attachments
FinHXfiterProjectCostsJanesJun2020.gif
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 6395
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post21 Jun 2020, 03:37

Very great info Spaz!

So anyone betting on the Gripen E still being in frontline service in 2060? :mrgreen:

Anyone? :mrgreen:
Choose Crews
Offline

Corsair1963

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 6657
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 04:14

Unread post22 Jun 2020, 03:00

Any 4.5 Generation Fighter for that matter.....
Offline

falcon.16

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 101
  • Joined: 11 Sep 2018, 20:10
  • Location: Spain

Unread post30 Jun 2020, 22:05

How many airplanes want to buy?
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 6395
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post01 Jul 2020, 02:33

falcon.16 wrote:How many airplanes want to buy?



The original tender was for 64 aircraft, but then that was erased and a more open method for potential contractors to give different packages of aircraft.
Choose Crews
PreviousNext

Return to Program and politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 48 guests