Finnish DefMin Interest in F-35s NOT Gripens

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magitsu

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Unread post13 Feb 2020, 18:40

Not sure. But NASAMS will continue and it can use up whatever 9X and 120C7 are left. JASSM would need a factory refresh by 2030 too and JDAMs are not numerous. But French weapon problem is that their own larders are so shallow that there's not much to loan from if things get tough. Whereas US intends to build nearly 10k JASSM (though only -ER and forward developments from now on). On the other hand Finland is already part of Nato's joint buy schemes (in certain cases as the only non-Nato country).

No special interest in any weapon, they are prepared to replace everything. But lock step is mentioned, which means that they would prefer whatever setup another big(ger) user of the fighter has. So there wouldn't be integration costs.
Meteor is in the short term only for F-35B. But eventually likely for A as well. It's anyone's guess whether they rate Meteor better than 120D. We have no idea of their actual specs.
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optimist

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 02:29

magitsu wrote:Not sure. But NASAMS will continue and it can use up whatever 9X and 120C7 are left. JASSM would need a factory refresh by 2030 too and JDAMs are not numerous. But French weapon problem is that their own larders are so shallow that there's not much to loan from if things get tough. Whereas US intends to build nearly 10k JASSM (though only -ER and forward developments from now on). On the other hand Finland is already part of Nato's joint buy schemes (in certain cases as the only non-Nato country).

No special interest in any weapon, they are prepared to replace everything. But lock step is mentioned, which means that they would prefer whatever setup another big(ger) user of the fighter has. So there wouldn't be integration costs.
Meteor is in the short term only for F-35B. But eventually likely for A as well. It's anyone's guess whether they rate Meteor better than 120D. We have no idea of their actual specs.

I read the JASSM AGM-158/-ER B is being replaced, with the AGM-158C LRASM. Australia is a JASSM user and is placing an order for the LRASM.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... australia/
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steve2267

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 03:07

My earlier query was motivated by my observation that AIM-120D's and/or Meteors would seemingly enable 12-24 Lightnings to cover almost the entirety of the country with an air-to-air net. AIM-120D is surely not to be trifled with, but if it lacks a dual-pulse motor, then a Meteor, or maybe that Meteor/AESA hybrid Japan is partnering with BAE on, would seem to cover the at least half the breadth of Finland East-West.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 09:49

optimist wrote:I read the JASSM AGM-158/-ER B is being replaced, with the AGM-158C LRASM. Australia is a JASSM user and is placing an order for the LRASM.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... australia/


I doubt JASSM are being replaced by LRASM as they have different targets in mind which also means they have different kinds of warheads. AFAIK, JASSM-ER is being produced currently and JASSM-XR is in the works along with LRASM. So it seems like they will be used together for a long time.

For Finland LRASM would not be needed as we'd likely use cruise missiles only against land targets. Of course LRASM could be used for that role also, but I bet latest JASSM variants work better against most land targets due to their penetrating warhead instead of blast fragmentation in LRASM.

Btw, LM says this on their website https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/pr ... jassm.html

Future integration efforts will focus on the U.S. and international versions of Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II fighter aircraft and other international platforms.


I bet JASSM will be usable in F-35s by the time Finnish Air Force is replacing the Hornets. I also have no doubts that Super Hornet could also easily be upgraded to carry it. Others might need more work to integrate JASSM and I bet it would be better option to just buy new weapons in that case.
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optimist

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 13:13

Like Finland, we have JASSM on the legacy hornet. It isn't cleared for the Super Hornet. The LRASM is going on the aussie super Hornet, F-35 and P-8. I wasn't aware JASSM is also going on the F-35. We will more than likely keep it then. I thought we were retiring it with the legacy Hornet. My mistake.
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marsavian

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Unread post16 Feb 2020, 03:51

Gripen E presentation (English apart from a little Finnish at the beginning)

https://youtu.be/yAooZwbcDwA



EDIT: Contrary to what has been previously reported the number of Gripens *will* be reduced to account for the two Global Eye, see Q@A answer at 1:21:30.
Last edited by marsavian on 17 Feb 2020, 01:54, edited 3 times in total.
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marsavian

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Unread post16 Feb 2020, 03:58

F-35 Military Thrust take-off

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madrat

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Unread post16 Feb 2020, 17:34

In cold and wet conditions no less.

The power of the engine really shines here.
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lukfi

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Unread post17 Feb 2020, 18:58

Cold is good, it's hot (less dense) air which gives jet engines trouble. And of course other fighters can take off without afterburners, too :)
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optimist

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Unread post17 Feb 2020, 21:44

lukfi wrote:Cold is good, it's hot (less dense) air which gives jet engines trouble. And of course other fighters can take off without afterburners, too :)

You seem to be minimising the dry thrust. Australia did an intensive review, because of noise pollution requirements with AB. Perhaps you can tell us of the fighter aircraft that has better numbers.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post18 Feb 2020, 03:16

In today's fighter market 64 aircraft is a healthy order. So, you can see why the competition is so fierce....


Another win for the F-35. Could spell the end for some of the 4.5 Generation Contenders. :|
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Unread post18 Feb 2020, 06:05

Corsair1963 wrote:In today's fighter market 64 aircraft is a healthy order. So, you can see why the competition is so fierce....
Another win for the F-35. Could spell the end for some of the 4.5 Generation Contenders. :|

I think the 4.5 will still be viable for those countries that the F-35 isn't offered to. Gripen has some UK/US control. So it will have to be considered politically.

Rafale, eurofighter and F-teen seem to be picking up the scraps. Other than some IP transfer to Brazil, making that sale. I don't see a lot for Gripen. It may go the same way as the SAAB car. I know that's blasphemy.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post18 Feb 2020, 06:40

optimist wrote:
I think the 4.5 will still be viable for those countries that the F-35 isn't offered to. Gripen has some UK/US control. So it will have to be considered politically.

Rafale, eurofighter and F-teen seem to be picking up the scraps. Other than some IP transfer to Brazil, making that sale. I don't see a lot for Gripen. It may go the same way as the SAAB car. I know that's blasphemy.


Point is the export market for 4.5 Generation Fighters is evaporating rather quickly..... :|
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optimist

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Unread post18 Feb 2020, 06:54

Corsair1963 wrote:
Point is the export market for 4.5 Generation Fighters is evaporating rather quickly..... :|

Like the buggy whip :mrgreen:

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marsavian

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Unread post18 Feb 2020, 07:29

India is still buying 4.5 gens as are all other present/future S-400 users, no choice in the matter. Gripen E will keep Saab busy until Tempest ...
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