Finnish DefMin Interest in F-35s NOT Gripens

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krorvik

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Unread post30 Nov 2018, 09:34

lamoey wrote:They could just fly a couple of their Hornets, across Sweden, to Ørlandet AFB in Norway. That would be the closest opportunity to get their tail feathers whipped by an F-35 :devil:


They'll get that chance, but focus is likely to be on IOT for a couple more years still. Would love to see the neighbours griffins get their feathers ruffled too.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post30 Nov 2018, 13:05

lbk000 wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:JHMCS and AIM-9X in Hornet proved effective even against F-22. Whatever that means...

Even with IR signature reduction measures the F-22's exhaust is still warm. Considering all aspect IR seekers are sensitive enough to lock onto a head-on shot (where the target's body is blocking direct view of the exhaust), it should trivial for the AIM-9X to threaten the F-22 at HMS employment ranges.


Sure I agree with that. Just wanted to throw that somewhere.. :D
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steve2267

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Unread post30 Nov 2018, 19:51

lbk000 wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:JHMCS and AIM-9X in Hornet proved effective even against F-22. Whatever that means...

Even with IR signature reduction measures the F-22's exhaust is still warm. Considering all aspect IR seekers are sensitive enough to lock onto a head-on shot (where the target's body is blocking direct view of the exhaust), it should trivial for the AIM-9X to threaten the F-22 at HMS employment ranges.


Hmmmm.... but isn’t the 9x an imaging infrared seeker? As such, doesn’t it rely far less on the heat plume of the engines, and is far harder to decoy with countermeasures? If one of these locks on to you, I think (future?) DIRCM / point-defense DEW might be your best option or only hope of defeating the incoming smart robot — even if to only blind its sensor.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117 & gob of F-22, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well, then bake. Whaddya get? An F-35.
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steve2267

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Unread post30 Nov 2018, 20:06

hornetfinn wrote:
Btw, Finnish Hornets have also done close-combat exercises against F-22s couple of months ago and according to Lt. Col. in charge of that exercise, it was highly interesting experience and that JHMCS and AIM-9X in Hornet proved effective even against F-22. Whatever that means...


Perhaps the Finns were able to “down” some Raptors with their 9x before they died? We have all read (some here experienced or demonstrated) how dangerous a Hornet is with its nose pointing ability. Combine that with a 90deg off-boresight capability of the 9x and perhaps a few (or more than a few?) Raptors had their feathers clipped that day? If nothing else, it would show the effectiveness of the 9x and also the lethality of the modern day WVR fight, and why you really DON’T want to go there. I would find that interesting.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117 & gob of F-22, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well, then bake. Whaddya get? An F-35.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post05 Dec 2018, 08:58

steve2267 wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:
Btw, Finnish Hornets have also done close-combat exercises against F-22s couple of months ago and according to Lt. Col. in charge of that exercise, it was highly interesting experience and that JHMCS and AIM-9X in Hornet proved effective even against F-22. Whatever that means...


Perhaps the Finns were able to “down” some Raptors with their 9x before they died? We have all read (some here experienced or demonstrated) how dangerous a Hornet is with its nose pointing ability. Combine that with a 90deg off-boresight capability of the 9x and perhaps a few (or more than a few?) Raptors had their feathers clipped that day? If nothing else, it would show the effectiveness of the 9x and also the lethality of the modern day WVR fight, and why you really DON’T want to go there. I would find that interesting.


According to info on Finnish websites, this was purely WVR excercise. They probably figured that there would be no point in BVR training as that would be so one sided. In pictures it seems that F-22s had Lüneburg lens attached. Hornets have proven extremely capable in WVR especially with JHMCS and AIM-9X. Finnish Hornets are latest Classic Hornets with -402 engines and have good power to help maneuvering. I think they can give even F-22 pretty good fight when almost clean.
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hythelday

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Unread post05 Dec 2018, 12:00

There is no need to give F-22 magical properties. Some users have suggested recently that F-22s have a way more advanced IR countermeasures than openly admitted, but that seems counter to logic, even if Australian exchange pilot said it was hard to lock on F-22 WVR.

If a T-38 can gun down F-22, then there is no reason a Hornet utilizing AIM-9X HOBS to the fullest cannot "splash" a Raptor or two, in the right circumstances that is.
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loke

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Unread post17 Dec 2018, 17:04

Saab's HX-campaign driving Magnus Skogberg has in the past attracted the attention by pointing out that the replacement of the existing 64 Hornet fighter aircraft in Finland by Saab's new Gripen E/F-destroyers would cost a total of about 10 billion euros for the whole of their life cycle.

The estimate is considered low, as Finland has set aside merely on the cost of acquisition for about 7 to 10 billion euros. On top of this come from the life-cycle costs, such as maintenance of machines and software, as well as asepäivitykset, which are spending billions of euros worth of those as well. HX-project program director Lauri Puranen has, however, pointed out that the annual cost of the new machines will be on the same level as the current less than 10% of the defence budget. That means about 200 million euros a year, which would be around six billion euros for 30 years.

Saab's HX-campaign director Skogberg stands still 10 billion euro promise on the back, but to refine the New Finland and to the economy, what it means. The company has a strong view on the fact that none of your competitors are not doing well in the full life cycle costs.


Machine translated from: https://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/267152 ... a-hinnassa
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