F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2013, 01:50
by popcorn
The CoS of the Italian Air Force explains how they intend to be eagles and not chickens.

Source: http://www.sldinfo.com/a-21st-century-a ... -the-f-35/

“This is an information warfare airplane which can share data across a fleet of global players. The reach of the F-35 means that my planes operating in the Western Mediterranean can receive data from throughout the region. And it is a plane with coalition designed into the aircraft.”

The plane is an information warfare aircraft, or an aircraft built to operate very differently from legacy aircraft... “Command and control capabilities are built into every cockpit of the F-35; the challenge will be to leverage those capabilities and the distributed decision making capabilities inherent in a fleet of F-35s.”

He underscored that a strategic shift towards pockets of defense and security challenges around the European, African, Mediterranean and Middle East regions meant that Europe, the United States and others needed to shape collaborative approaches to insert airpower when appropriate rapidly.

And the F-35 as a key distributed force asset was the right match for meeting distributed challenges...

“The fusion system built into every cockpit will allow shared coalition decision making that is required for the kinds of multi-national operations which are becoming the norm. We are not fighting in mass; we are applying tools rapidly and directly to discrete problems and challenges.”..

The first issue is the question of why the Italian Air Force was mixing its fleet between As and Bs.

“We studied the issue carefully and for the kind of missions we face we needed the flexibility which the B can add to the fleet. We need to go to the mission not the airfield. We will operate in many areas where there are only short runways; the B allows us to operate in those conditions.

We can mix the fleet and operate at sea on land, on our own ships or own others. It is the kind of flexibility, which we see as crucial to a 21st century setting.

I will give you an example of what we don’t want. We planned to operate with the USMC in Afghanistan. But we were three months later in the deployment than we intended because our Tornados could not operate in the same conditions as the USMC. We had to take three months to build out the air base from which we would operate with them.

Time is crucial to many of the missions in which we will be engaged. The Bs give me a more rapid insertion aircraft.”

"... Shaping combinations of 4th generation with the F-35s will be a mix and match opportunity in tailoring airpower to the missions ahead.

This is a challenge; but it is a key task within which the F-35s will make the legacy aircraft more effective; and the 4th generation aircraft will add support and strike capabilities to an F-35 enabled air power force.”

"... He concluded by emphasizing that the line between those countries that operate in the fifth generation and those that don’t will be more than just a line in the sand.

It will first of all be about survival. Do you want to be the Eagle or the Chicken in an airpower confrontation?

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2013, 19:05
by XanderCrews
popcorn wrote:
I will give you an example of what we don’t want. We planned to operate with the USMC in Afghanistan. But we were three months later in the deployment than we intended because our Tornados could not operate in the same conditions as the USMC. We had to take three months to build out the air base from which we would operate with them.

Time is crucial to many of the missions in which we will be engaged. The Bs give me a more rapid insertion aircraft.”


Another tidbit to remember when douches start breaking out the "we never use STOVL in combat" garbage

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2013, 19:40
by sprstdlyscottsmn
the near limitless basing possibilities (land or ship based) alone make the B worth a look.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 09 Feb 2014, 21:57
by spazsinbad
Italian Parliament complaining again but anyway....

Italian Lawmakers Consider New Cuts to JSF Purchase 09 Feb 2014 TOM KINGTON
"ROME — Eight months after the Italian parliament suspended new orders of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), members of the country’s biggest political party may try to halve the total purchase.

A source within the center-left Democratic Party said the members were preparing a policy document for approval in parliament which could seek to cut Italy’s planned purchase of JSFs from 90 to around 45. The country has already reduced its total buy from the originally planned 131 aircraft.

But a second source said that debate inside the party is still continuing, and that the final document may merely threaten a cut if Italy does not obtain better conditions on the U.S.-led program....

...Assembly work on Italy’s JSFs at the country’s Final Assembly and Check Out line at Cameri airbase in northern Italy has meanwhile proceeded according to schedule since kicking off last July, said Debra Palmer, Lockheed Martin’s vice president and general manager for the FACO.

An Italian defense source said Italian officials are proceeding with the procurement of 14 aircraft which were covered by full or initial industrial agreements signed before the vote last June. Three of the aircraft come from Low Rate Initial Production batch 6, three from LRIP 7, four for LRIP 8 and four from LRIP 9, including one F-35B jump-jet variant. The defense source said that even if just long-lead items had been ordered for aircraft before the vote, the ministry felt justified in pushing ahead with their full procurement.

Palmer said that Lockheed Martin now had work “locked in” from Italy to deliver three LRIP 6 jets to Italy as well as three LRIP 7 jets and two from LRIP 8, all of the F-35A conventional take off and landing model.

The components of the first aircraft, known as AL-1, are now emerging from the Electronic Mate and Alignment system, one of four at the base, which is run jointly by Alenia and Lockheed Martin and bankrolled by the Italian government.

Engine and electronics testing, including checks on the aircraft’s low observation signature, will begin shortly, with first flights and delivery in 2015, said Palmer.

Work on the second aircraft to be assembled started in November, with the third to start in March and the fourth in July. “All major components have arrived for AL-3 and some for AL-4 are arriving now,” said Palmer.

Alenia Aermacchi is meanwhile stepping up its work on JSF wings at Cameri, with the first two full wing sets destined for US F-35s now in production.

With Italy dropping from 131 aircraft to 90, and The Netherlands— which has agreed to assemble its jets at Cameri — ordering 37 jets instead of the planned 85, Palmer said Cameri “will not have the rate of production originally planned,” but suggested the Dutch order could yet rise. “When they ordered F-16s, they did it in tranches, and we think they could do that again.”

She said other European countries could yet be drawn to Cameri due to the savings from not having to fly new operational aircraft across the Atlantic flanked by tankers and support aircraft.

“The purchase price of the aircraft from Lockheed Martin will be the same regardless of the assembly location,” she said."

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2014 ... 01/DEFSECT

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2014, 06:42
by Corsair1963
Just politics fueled by bad press..........(unfortunately) Nonetheless, I don't see Italy making any cuts let alone drastic ones like is described in the article. Because Italy has invested so much in the JSF Program.


Yet, if it doesn't want its F-35 Production Line and Maintenance Hub. I am sure Japan or even South Korea would be happy to step in....... :wink:

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2014, 13:02
by glendora
It’s hard to tell what is going to happen here in Italy in the future.
The Defense News article depicts quite accurately the situation.

Just another quote from the above article:

Called to speak in September (in front of the Defense Commissione of the aprliament, my note), Finmeccanica CEO Alessandro Pansa appeared underwhelmed by the firm’s work on the JSF program. “Finmeccanica will not build its future as an operator of avant-garde technology by supplying parts of large aircraft,” he said.


I watched the auditions of Pansa and eventually, yes he was quite underwhelmed with the F-35, and showed much more enthusiasm for the Typhoon.
Apparently he also passed to the Commission a document which states that the manufacturing of the wings at Cameri would be lossmaking. And this, with no certainty of future maintenance work at Cameri, could have been of some impact.
Most of the public opinion here, not only the center-left electors, but also the center-right. is against the program.

On the other hand, as stated also by Defense News whit its "two sources", there are also many political supporters of the program, including the President of the Republic.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2014, 08:06
by spazsinbad
Italy prepared to cut major defence projects - minister 12 Mar 2014 Steve Scherer
"ROME.... (Reuters) - Italy will review its military needs and not hesitate to cut spending on unnecessary big projects, new defence minister Roberta Pinotti said on Wednesday, an announcement that will put the spotlight on its order for F-35 jets....

...The government is now committed to buy 90 of the warplanes for about 10 billion euros ($14 billion), but there is broad political support for further cuts to the programme....

...In her first appearance before parliament since being sworn in last month, Pinotti did not mention the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, which has been dogged by technical problems. But she did not rule out further spending cuts.

"The government will not hesitate to review, reduce or rethink even large projects that are under way or being considered if economic or international situations show them to be inopportune," she said in testimony to the joint Senate and Chamber defence committees.

Before any spending decisions were made, the minister said she would lead a review of military needs, without saying how long it would take...."

SOURCE: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/ ... UP20140312

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2014, 09:37
by weasel1962
Italy was supposed to order 25 typhoons in tranche 3B. Germany has already decided not participate. UK has weasel-ed out of their share leaving only Italy & Spain. Whilst some Italians might favor the typhoon over the F-35, their cost from a smaller 3B order should go up enough to make a "cut" worth considering.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2014, 20:31
by spazsinbad
Italian president: parliament not authorised to cut F-35 project 14 Mar 2014

"After debate in the Italian Parliament and press about possible new cuts in the F-35 fleet, president Giorgio Napolitana reacted with a very surprising coup to defend the F-35.

Since some months there are persistent rumors about further cutting of the purchase of the troubled F-35 combat jet, the so called “Plan Renzi” to recover the financial situation of the Italian Government after the Euro-crisis. The top of the Italian MoD, the Italian and US industry are becoming very nervous about the “Plan Renzi”, because it proposes to cut the F-35 fleet from the current 90 to 45 only (original planning 131) for the benefit of the alternative program Eurofighter.

Today the 88-year old president Giorgio Napolitno ordered the Supreme Defence Council putting on the agenda that the Parliament has no power to control the costs of defence, because it is “critical for the implementation of Law 244”. In other words: it is forbidden for the Parliament to cut (certain) defence projects, only the Government is in control of that. By doing this a serious institutional clash may be looming, because the preparation of the parliamentary Financial Committee of Matteo Renzi is in a final stage...."

SOURCE: http://www.jsfnieuws.nl/?p=1078 [/quote]

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2014, 23:14
by spazsinbad
Italy's F-35 jet orders should be frozen, cut: Renzi party document 19 Mar 2014 Steve Scherer & Antonella Cinelli

"(Reuters) - Italy should put its order for 90 Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) F-35 fighter jets on hold and probably cut it "significantly", lawmakers in Prime Minister Matteo Renzi's Democratic Party (PD) say, according to a party document.

The government has committed to spending an estimated 12 billion euros for the 90 radar-evading planes, but Renzi, who announced 10 billion euros ($13.91 billion) in income tax cuts last week, said on Sunday the order would be "revised" as he seeks to reduce public spending.

A PD party paper seen by Reuters, which was distributed to PD lawmakers on Wednesday by PD defense committee member Gian Piero Scanu, says that the contracts should be frozen and that "significant" cuts are probably needed.

The paper argues that the F-35 guaranteed Italy "no significant industrial gains" and that its cost "cannot co-exist with the needs of our public finances."..."

SOURCE: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/ ... V920140319

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2014, 15:20
by glendora
An extensive post on Gabriele's blog about the recent complex situation in Italy about the acquisition of the F-35s:
Italy and the F-35: what is actually happening?
http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.it/2014/03/italy-and-f-35-what-is-actually.html

Some very intersting highlights are included.
Press in Italy and abroad has gone into a frenzy over the news that Italy "will further cut its F-35 order, even halving it". But reality is a bit different.
Big cuts might be coming. Or might not.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2015, 12:11
by spazsinbad
An Update on Italian F-35s
19 Jun 2015 Rivista Italiana Difesa via SLDinfo

"2015-06-19 Our partner, Rivista Italiana Difesa, recently provided an update on the F-35s for Italy.

At the Le Bourget Air Show, RID had the opportunity to obtain some exclusive information.

Lockheed Martin is negotiating 150 F-35s with the US Department of Defense, and this order constitutes both LRIP (Low Rate Initial Production) 9 and 10.

The company expects to sign this contract by the end of the year.

Within LRIP 9 and 10, there would be six aircraft for the Italian Air Force and Navy: 2 within LRIP 9 (an F-35A and an F-35B) and four in LRIP 10 (2 F-35As and 2 F-35Bs)

The Italian FACO at Cameri will deliver one plane this year, and one each in 2016 and 2017 with 3 delivered in 2018 followed by 5 in 2019 and 5 in 2020."

Source: http://www.sldinfo.com/an-update-on-italian-f-35s/

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2016, 14:52
by spazsinbad
Room for New Italian Defense Programs Despite Spending Dip in 2016
01 Jun 2016 Tom Kington

"Italy’s defense procurement spending in 2016 is set to drop 3 percent to €4.72 billion, new budget documents reveal, although cash was found to launch a new jet trainer program and partner with France on a new missile program.

The dip, due to belt tightening as Italy struggles to escape recession, may alarm military officials, given the instability currently seen in North Africa and the renewed threat from Russia.

The spending trend, which looks set to continue for the next two years, runs contrary to a Europe-wide hike in defense spending currently underway.

Procurement funding for this year combines €2.18 billion from the Defense Ministry and a €2.54 billion top-up from the Industry Ministry, a decline on the €4.87 billion total made available last year, although the Defense Ministry funding is above the €1.95 billion initially forecast for 2016 in a provisional budget document released in December.

The latest document, which was sent to the Italian Parliament and seen by Defense News, is a three year budget covering 2016-2018, as is customary, which indicates that Defense Ministry procurement funding is expected to drop to €1.93 billion next year and in 2018....

...Italy’s ongoing purchase of F-35s is funded to the tune of €630 million. Following parliamentary votes in 2014 demanding a reduction in spending on the program, the document claims that €1 billion will be trimmed off spending between 2016 and 2019, and that spending last year was cut from €583 million to €370 million.

No explanation of where the cuts are being made is given, so it is not clear if the savings are related to Italy’s provisional decision to cut its F-35 order from 131 to 90 aircraft...."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /85265076/

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2016, 05:33
by nutshell
We're in trouble, that's not a surprise.

There's literally a sh*t storm rampaging right now because of the welfare system collapsing.

As in: i will never be able to get my retirement even if i could survive the fatigue of working at the age of 70.

But, anyway, i HIGHLY doubt Finmeccanica CEO is pushing for more Typhoons when Cameri has the potential of a big, BIG gold mine. He also predicted that by 2019, F35A produced here will cost around 65M euro, which makes the plane much more affordable then the Typhoon that are rotting because we simply don't have a use for it.

But ehy, everything is possible, and for sure the F35 is at much more risk then our politicians' immunities, massive wadges and general benefits.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2016, 18:00
by spazsinbad
Check out the posts in this thread for 'pond crossing': viewtopic.php?f=57&t=28948&p=343524&hilit=Niccoli#p343524
Italian air force struggles to prove air power relevance
30 Sep 2016 Beth Stevenson

"Italy’s air force is “taken for granted” by the general public, politicians and the nation’s other armed services, according to a leading academic....

...And despite notable recent milestones – including it performing the first transatlantic crossing with the Lockheed Martin F-35 – the air force is still perceived less favourably than its sister services.

That flight was also made against the backdrop of wider doubts, he says: “There was scepticism [about] letting the Italians go first, but it worked out well.” [Nah the Italian Air Farce are surrender monkeys SHIRLEY - this is a ridiculous proposition - I reckon leading academics are full of shite!]...

...Rome is exploring the wider use of its air assets outside conflicts, and is trying to expand the F-35’s role into new areas, such as data collection, Alegi says. [Geez this is easy - it is collecting data - HEAPS]

“What if we can find a use for air power during peacetime? We’re thinking about how to do that.”

“Air power is not seen as the way of approaching a problem, other than during humanitarian crises.”

Growing the number of roles performed by the Joint Strike Fighter is vital, [easy peasy just listen to Italian F-35 pilots but hey acamadamademics are cool - NOT] he says, not least as a future replacement for the Eurofighter Typhoons currently operated by the service. [This academic needs to get edumacated Shirley]

“We need to make the most of this [the F-35],” he says. “When you point out that the Typhoon is more expensive than the F-35, it doesn’t really resonate, because air policing is a good use of them.”"

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ev-429948/

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2017, 09:25
by spazsinbad
Wannabe CLOWN/COMIC led Italian Party wants to scrap the F-35 IF they get the power through elections next year? They should seek advice from the :devil: Canaduckaduckians. They can getogether for a real clown show - luv it! :doh:
Italy's anti-establishment Five Star party would scrap F-35 program
11 May 2017 Tom Kington

"ROME — Italy’s anti-establishment Five Star Movement, the political party vying for top spot in polls ahead of elections due by next year, has committed to scrapping the F-35 program if it takes office.

“There will be no ifs or buts about leaving the F-35 program,” said Tatiana Basilio, a Five Star member of the Italian parliament during a presentation of the party’s defense manifesto on Thursday....

...The aircraft, and its price tag, has long been a target for the Five Star Movement, which was founded by comic Beppe Grillo in 2009 and has since campaigned to cut down on corruption and waste in public spending.

The party has risen in the polls in tandem with populist movements in other countries, and its leader Grillo has praised U.S. President Donald Trump and Russia President Vladimir Putin while criticising the policies of the European Union. ..."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/articles/ita ... 35-program

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2017, 13:41
by nutshell
Stop it there mate.

Yeah the f35 is at risk. Atm i can't name a single party that would guarantee for the program.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2017, 16:29
by SpudmanWP
He's making the same mistake as Canada...

1. Spout off & make promises about a program that you have no classified access to.
2. Base all you opinion of the program on public pressure & "news" stories.
3. Be held to your promises despite finding out the truth when you take office.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2017, 18:31
by steve2267
If Italy actually followed through on this "promise", could the Calamari (sp?) FACO facility be closed and given to another nation that really wants the F-35?

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2017, 18:34
by SpudmanWP
steve2267 wrote:If Italy actually followed through on this "promise", could the Calamari (sp?) FACO facility be closed and given to another nation that really wants the F-35?

No, it's owned by Italy (and/or Italian companies) and not the JPO in general.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2017, 19:58
by steve2267
SpudmanWP wrote:
steve2267 wrote:If Italy actually followed through on this "promise", could the Calamari (sp?) FACO facility be closed and given to another nation that really wants the F-35?

No, it's owned by Italy (and/or Italian companies) and not the JPO in general.


Sorry, perhaps a poor choice of words on my part. Let me rephrase:

If Italy totally backs out of the F-35 (i.e. cancels contracts etc), could the Calamari FACO work be given to another nation? Let Italy keep their facility and try to find other work for it, but move the actual work to another nation.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2017, 20:06
by SpudmanWP
Sure.. The right to bid on future contracts is based on continuing participation it the program. This is what Canada is finding out.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2017, 21:03
by bojack_horseman
Imagine my shock as a political party in the Kremlin's pocket is fervently anti-F35.

In what will also be not at all shocking, this party are also against NATO.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2017, 07:33
by Corsair1963
It's very unlikely that Italy will leave the F-35 Program. Regardless, who get's elected......Nonetheless, Italy only has herself to blame for this mess. :doh:

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2017, 00:01
by nutshell
Wow, thats a lot of wrong in just few posts.

I'm trying again this time should work:
NO DINERO!

All the parties, EACH ONE OF THEM, are having second thoughts about the F35, because...


...again...

...no coins left in the piggybank. Something has to go and the F35 MIGHT be one of the things.

Holy ****, not even the old PCI was THAT connected to the "mother Russia"; sorry but this is average Sputnik/RT commenter level of BS. I'm frankly amazed.

p.s.: its CAMERI, Calamari are...the squids :D

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2017, 18:49
by neptune
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... es-440164/

Audit report highlights Italy's F-35 challenges

10 August, 2017
BY: Luca Peruzzi Genoa

Italy wants to move its four Lockheed Martin F-35As allocated to an international training school in the USA to Europe, to support its operational preparations with the type, according to an audit office report published on 7 August. “The [Italian] administration has signaled its intention to renegotiate an agreement with the US government in order to recover the four aircraft destined to training and assign them to operational activities as soon as possible," the Court of Audit-produced document says. "Obtaining a critical mass of aircraft should allow the full employment of the system’s operational potential by the end of 2018." One of the reasons for the requested change is a previous Italian decision to slow the rate at which it will acquire the F-35. This restructuring reduced from 29 to 22 the number of aircraft to be funded until 2021 – 17 conventional take-off and landing F-35As, and five B-model short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) examples.

The report indicates that Italy's defense ministry has now authorized contracts with Lockheed and F135 engine manufacturer Pratt & Whitney for 10 F-35As and 2 F-35Bs, through the program's low-rate initial production (LRIP) batches 6 to 10. It has halved the planned number of aircraft included in LRIP 10 to two, after securing an agreement to move the others to LRIP 11 without penalty. In 2012 Italy reduced the size of its total planned F-35 order from 131 aircraft to 90. A memorandum of understanding signed with the USA covering LRIP batches 12 to 14 will deliver a further 8 A-model aircraft for its air force and nine STOVL jets for the navy. Rome had spent €3.5 billion ($4.1 billion) on the F-35 program by the end of last year, covering its system development and demonstration phase, aircraft procurements and investment in a final assembly and check-out line and maintenance, a repair and overhaul and upgrade facility at Cameri air base, and other base infrastructure costs.

Flight Fleets Analyzer records the Italian air force as having received eight of its aircraft so far, with another example and the navy's first F-35B to follow before the end of this year. The report says Italian companies had secured contracts worth €2.3 billion linked to the F-35 program by the end of 2016, with Leonardo's share worth €1.8 billion. Industry participation has been limited by procurement delays, as well as a "best value" policy applied while allocating international work share and US non-disclosure policies, it notes.
:)

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2017, 23:31
by spazsinbad
Another report with lots of extra detail especially the last paragraph below.
Italy's audit court gives F-35 cautious approval
10 Aug 2017 Tom Kington

"ROME — Italy’s audit court has given measured approval to the F-35 program, claiming in a detailed new report that Italy needs to be on board despite price hikes, delays and the country’s currently low workshare.

Any moves to reduce Italy’s purchase of 90 aircraft, given the “notable” price rise of the aircraft, would deprive Italy of access to vital technology “not currently available in the country” and risk cutting work at the country’s F-35 final assembly and maintenance line, the report argues.

Looking at the bottom line, the court said that Italy had invested 3.5 billion in the program to the end of 2016 and another 600 million euros this year — so much money it cannot afford to pull out now....

...The court, which monitors Italy’s government spending, warned that the 2012 decision to cut Italy’s F-35 order from 131 to 90 aircraft may have saved 5.4 billion euros but cost 3.1 billion euros in lost contracts, particularly the construction of wingboxes by Italian defense giant Leonardo, which fell from 1,215 sets to 835 sets....

...Italy’s deal with the U.S. to offer Cameri as a heavy maintenance base for Europe will offer the base a future after planes are assembled, but its future success was put in doubt by the exclusion of Italian firms from recent contract awards for maintenance, the report said.

“Currently, there is uncertainty over the competing role of the U.K. base at Marham, which has obtained, in order to ensure national sovereignty, maintenance and repair work for the U.K. fleet,” the report said.

That said, if new orders for aircraft in Europe arrive in the next five years, Cameri would be well placed to benefit, the judges added, although any drop, or even uncertainty over Italian orders, could weaken Cameri as it competes against other maintenance centers.

The court criticized the request made by Italy’s Parliament in 2012 to halve the amount of money that Italy is spending on the program. That had led to a slowdown in orders placed by Italy up to 2021 and a savings of 1.2 billion euros between 2015 and 2019.

Eight aircraft are due for delivery in 2017 compared to the 10 originally planned, while 22 will be delivered by 2021, down from 29, and spending on bases at Grottaglie and Decimomannu has been suspended, the report said.

But any savings will be temporary, given the overall number of aircraft on order has not changed, meaning there will be “no saving in the long term,” the report stated.

To cope with the slowdown of orders, Italy is planning to renegotiate its deal with the U.S. under which four of the Italian planes now delivered are involved in pilot training in the U.S.

Getting those planes back to join the few now flying in Italy would allow the Italian Air Force to achieve an operational number of aircraft by the end 2018, instead of the currently forecast 2021. “At the same time, Italian pilot training would take place in Italy,” the judges stated....

...The report refers to concerns over the transfer of sensitive data acquired by F-35 aircraft to the U.S. “By the end of 2017, there will be the implementation of a national filter (hardware and software produced by an Italian firm and placed under exclusively national control), which will allow the automatic blocking of messages and data where transmission is not wanted,” the report said. “To that national equipment there will be added, in 2018, a more general multinational solution, consisting of a software filter,” the report said."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/08/ ... -approval/

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 06:55
by spazsinbad
Strike planned at Italy F-35 assembly line
22 Apr 2018 Tom Kington

"ROME ― Workers at Italy’s F-35 assembly line have announced a strike next Tuesday to protest the widespread use of employment agency contractors at the site. Unions planning the one-day strike said 600 staff at Cameri Air Base — where Italy is performing F-35 final assembly work — are working on agency contracts, while only 270 are employed directly by Italian defense firm Leonardo, which runs the site. “There is no job security for staff,” said Sergio Busca a representative of the UILM union at the site. “Leonardo has long promised to hire them, but we are getting frustrated,” he added.

Owned by the Italian government and operated by state defense firm Leonardo in partnership with Lockheed Martin, Cameri has delivered nine F-35As to the Italian Air Force. Five are now flying from Italy’s Amendola Air Base and four are involved in in pilot training at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona....

...Italy is currently due to purchase 60 F-35As and 30 F-35Bs, while Cameri is also due to assemble 29 F-35As for the Royal Netherlands Air Force....

...“Leonardo has said the high number of agency staff is normal, but we should have work here for decades with the maintenance activity, so why not hire the staff, given their qualifications?” said Busca.

In a statement, Leonardo said it would start giving the staff full time positions this year. It put the number of agency staff at 520. The promise has not convinced workers at Cameri, who organized an overtime ban last Saturday as an initial protest, which Busca said was widely adhered to...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... mbly-line/

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 07:45
by sunstersun
Yo we don't need this right now...

We're trying to ramp up production. Don't **** this up please. Hire them full time, we're looking at least 3 + more European countries that would need Italy's production line.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 09:10
by weasel1962
The Italian assembly line at Cameri doesn't assemble for US production. I think only Dutch and Italian units at the moment so the impact, if any, is minimal.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 09:27
by spazsinbad
ONE DAY strike people - geez that is a REAL BLOW. <sarc off>

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 09:44
by weasel1962
Cameri was originally set up to handle 216 production units (131 Italian and 85 Dutch). Now the orders have shrunk to 90+29 = 119. No problemo? I think the workers would be happier if there was really more work.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 16:13
by sunstersun
man how are the dutch only order 37? They danes are ordering 28 and the Norwegians are ordering 52. Isn't netherlands like the 6th biggest economy in the EU after big 3 + italy spain?

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 16:30
by botsing
sunstersun wrote:man how are the dutch only order 37? They danes are ordering 28 and the Norwegians are ordering 52. Isn't netherlands like the 6th biggest economy in the EU after big 3 + italy spain?

Whether that number is large or small depends on what metric you will use for your comparison.

If for example we take the area to defend, then The Netherlands will have more than three times as many F-35's per square mile than the USA:
Image

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 04:41
by nutshell
They sounds like they're working for free and illegally...

...f@ing spoiled cunts.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 21:19
by spazsinbad
Italian Air Force Commander On How F-35 Will Transform The Service
24 Apr 2018 Tony Osborne

"Italy’s challenging economic climate is perhaps not the most conducive for evolving an air force, yet the nation is now taking deliveries of F-35 Joint Strike Fighters (JSF), maritime patrol aircraft, jet trainers and new intelligence-gathering assets. Aviation Week London Bureau Chief Tony Osborne caught up with the Italian Air Force commander, Enzo Vecciarelli, to find out how this evolution is gaining pace.

What will the F-35 bring to the Italian Air Force? Gen. Vecciarelli: The F-35 is the aircraft suitable and necessary for new-generation scenarios. It is not just a fighter but also the best asset that can be used in a growing number of hybrid situations to achieve information superiority.

It seems that the F-35 is not a popular program with Italian politicians. How do you convince them of the aircraft’s attributes? Our political leadership is aware of the importance of the JSF program and the tremendous enhancement this asset will bring to the capabilities of the defense ministry. Even when severe budget constraints forced a decrease in the number of acquisitions, Italy’s participation in the program has never been in doubt.

When do you hope to declare the F-35 operational? We are on track to achieve initial operational capability (IOC) by the end of 2018. IOC depends upon several parameters. These include the appropriate number of aircraft being delivered to the operational units, the proper level of training and expertise for personnel and the software block upgrade that will enable us to employ the appropriate weapons for the assigned missions.

You are planning to host the first fifth-generation Tactical Leadership Program exercise at Amendola AB [to train NATO aircrews how to work better in a coalition operation]. Are other F-35 nations interested in the exercise? Because Amendola is the first European F-35 operational base, it is fully up to speed to host fifth-generation assets for deployment, exercises and real operations. Therefore, we have offered our partner nations the chance to perform the fourth 2018 TLP course over our territory. This represents the first opportunity in Europe to host training activities involving the F-35, fostering interoperability between fourth- and fifth-generation assets during complex and advanced missions. All the TLP-signing nations have shown great interest; there is an initial bidding [to take part in] the course for approximately 50 aircraft....

...Many other air forces face personnel retention and pilot shortages. Is this the same for Italy, and if so, how are you combating the situation? Pilot shortage seems to be widespread across many air forces, and we are not immune. So far, our selection process and in-house training capabilities allow us to retain an acceptable ratio between the fielding of newly trained pilots and the replacement of experienced ones who reach the end of their flying duties. The biggest challenge now is the need to train pilots for the new F-35 operational squadrons while maintaining operational capabilities on the other fighter components. We’re focusing on an efficient training system that shortens [F-35] training time while allowing pilots to quickly become up to speed with the operational environments and complexity of the new information-management systems on the aircraft...."

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/italian ... rm-service

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2018, 05:56
by spazsinbad
Will they - Won't they - it is a Magical Mystery Tour of potential Italian Politics and their Defence (Industry) nobody knows.
Future of F-35 in Italy remains a mystery under new government
25 May 2018 Tom Kington

"Two populist parties on the brink of forming Italy’s first populist government claim strong backing to the country’s defense industry, marking a change of tack after earlier criticism of the sector. The anti-establishment Five Star Movement, which has won votes crusading against political corruption, has teamed with the anti-migrant League party to form a government which may be sworn in next week. The two parties, which formed a coalition after inconclusive elections in March left Italy with a hung parliament, are currently drawing up a list of ministers.

Five Star has traditionally opposed investment in the defense industry and elected members of the party last year vowed to pull Italy out of the F-35 program if they came to power….

...The F-35 progam is not mentioned, and one senior political source told Defense News its omission meant neither one thing or an other. “It just means we don’t know what they are going to do,” said the source. One analyst said that until the equilibrium in the coalition between the two parties was better known, and until a new defense minister was appointed, it was hard to tell what Italy’s next government will do about the F-35 and defense spending in general…."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... overnment/

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2018, 20:45
by nutshell
It seems that F35 cuts magically disappeared from the government agreement that M5S and Lega Nord signed.

Too early to celebrate because there are too many fale news around it (most of them coming out Germany).

Feel optimistic.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2018, 21:33
by weasel1962
M5S had threatened to cancel the F-35 program. The new defense minister is Elisabetta Trenta who is from M5S. Agree too early to see how things go but with the big debt situation to tackle, even keeping the status quo would be seen as a victory for the italian f-35 program.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2018, 02:16
by nutshell
weasel1962 wrote:M5S had threatened to cancel the F-35 program. The new defense minister is Elisabetta Trenta who is from M5S. Agree too early to see how things go but with the big debt situation to tackle, even keeping the status quo would be seen as a victory for the italian f-35 program.


She also served in the Army as a captain. Worked along the army in Iraqi, Lebanon and Libya; her husband is an Army officer.
I'm expecting her to seal the deal with the F35.

The focus on balancing the GDP with the debt is defenetively shifted elsewhere.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2018, 07:23
by weasel1962
nutshell wrote:She also served in the Army as a captain. Worked along the army in Iraqi, Lebanon and Libya; her husband is an Army officer.
I'm expecting her to seal the deal with the F35.

The focus on balancing the GDP with the debt is defenetively shifted elsewhere.


Yup, just read thru her CV. Very impressive. Speaks 4 languages, served in the forces/UNIFIL, technical expert etc. Husbands works as a colonel in the directorate of armaments so should have some to advise in procurement.

What will reassure is that she is the moderate voice in the party whereas the other defense minister candidate Guido Crosseto was really the F-35 critic. Having said that, I don't think defence would be entirely immune from the debt issue. She wrote an article on defence/war by proxy at CEMISS which may suggest a non-interventionist role (i.e. less defence required). We live in interesting times.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2018, 11:57
by steve2267
weasel1962 wrote:She wrote an article on defence/war by proxy at CEMISS which may suggest a non-interventionist role (i.e. less defence required). We live in interesting times.


F-35 may function as a proxy enabler: it may be easier to convince some folks to be your boots on the ground if they believe you will provide them air cover / support.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2018, 12:43
by nutshell
More words from both Di Maio and Salvini.

Again no mention to f35 purge. All about Formero's Reform and Renzi's Job Act.

I'm actually believing they really let the F35 out from the govt program. Cool cool.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2018, 09:49
by gideonic
So the Italian vice prime minister met with the Russian ambassador. Seems they want to stop NATO from protecting against "nonexistent" threats in the East and worry "about the South". They also want to veto any sanctions against Russia. Going against the F-35 (as a symbol of transatlantic cooperation) looks like the next logical step.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2018, 19:55
by nutshell
Crap.
Italy got damaged big time by the sanctions because we export a huge deal of goods to Russia.
What Salvini is asking is logical And responsible since he's the vice prime Minister.
This is what we missed in the past 8 years, politicians that are taking care of national interests.

BTW, Di Maio said he want to strengthen our position in the Alliance and he clearly stated we've no better and bigger ally than the US. Hence, F35 is safe, our place in Nato is safe, we are no Turkey.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2018, 17:25
by talkitron
The new Italian defense minister committed to the F-35 in this interview. She wants to stretch out the buy but not reduce the final numbers acquired. Perhaps the Lega's sympathies for Donald Trump and the domestic assembly line helped overrule the M5S party's opposition to the F-35. The article also mentions penalties if Italy cut its order.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... th-france/

Italy’s new defense minister commits to F-35, butts heads with France


Five Star officials promised last year to scrap Italy’s purchase of 90 F-35 fighters, but Trenta said the new government would not cut orders, even if it might stretch out its purchase plan.

“It’s a program we inherited and we have lots of questions; that is why we will evaluate the program considering the industrial and technology benefits for national interest, as we are the new government,” she said.


Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 06 Jul 2018, 21:14
by pron
News from Italy today.

ROME - The new Minister of Defence, Elisabetta Trenta, announced that Italy “will no longer be buying any F-35 planes” in an interview on the La7 Omnibus program on Friday.

“We have always been critics of the program and not afraid to hide it”, wrote the Minister on Facebook in a post where she shared the interview. “We will no longer invest in new fighter planes, and as for the contracts which have already been signed by the previous executive, we are carrying out a careful evaluation that exclusively takes into account the national interest.”

The only reason for keeping the current contracts would be because “we could find that terminating the contracts costs more than maintaining them. Around the F-35 there is technological activity, important research and of course employment which would be cut in turn. This is why we have to take care with our evaluation.”

http://www.italianinsider.it/?q=node/6962

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2018, 01:08
by geforcerfx
With that I bet Itally loses final production line.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2018, 05:24
by durahawk
geforcerfx wrote:With that I bet Itally loses final production line.


This seems to be a fairly boneheaded move by Italy. They are holding a fairly large slice of the industrial offsets.

Their military is underfunded to begin with from the NATO perspective. This will make it even worse.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2018, 08:36
by juretrn
By the time the morons that got elected are finally forced to step down (there's no way this government is making it through an entire term), there will be a need to do some major firefighting by a more reasonable government. "please let us keep the FACO? pretty please?"

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2018, 09:12
by Dragon029
Courtesy of an Italian dual-citizen I know; apparently she's been misquoted due to the ambiguity of the words she used:

https://www.nextquotidiano.it/elisabetta-trenta-f-35/

They haven't decided to cut orders yet (as of 23 hours ago, when she posted this on Facebook), but are instead performing an assessment of the program and will make a decision in the near future. She also acknowledged that cutting orders could cost them more than keeping the existing planned quantity.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2018, 16:09
by alex_f
I too understood (speaking fluently Italian, btw) that they will not buy any further JSF. But they stick to the order they already placed. Would be too silly to cancel it now. On the other side, with this bunch of idiots in power right now, it wouldn't really surprise me if they did.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2018, 16:10
by geforcerfx
So 15 A's and 15 B's, not much a force worth dealing with, I would look into converting the entire order to B's, at leas you have the one common type than can be used from your carrier and islands then.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2018, 17:00
by spazsinbad
With that option ALL Bs costing more money I cannot see it happening - meanwhile perhaps a better ENGLISH translation:
Italy says won't buy more F-35 fighter jets, may cut existing order
07 Jul 2018 Reuters Staff

"ROME (Reuters) - Italy will not buy more Lockheed Martin Corp F-35 fighter jets and is considering whether to stick to the order to which it is already committed, Defence Minister Elisabetta Trenta said on Friday. Trenta comes from the anti-establishment 5-Star Movement which has always been critical of NATO member Italy’s order for 90 of the planes, saying the money could be better spent to boost welfare and help the sluggish economy.

“We won’t buy any more F-35s,” Trenta said in a television interview with private broadcaster La 7. “We are assessing what to do regarding the contracts already in place.”

She spelled out several reasons to be cautious, saying that “strong financial penalties” could mean that “scrapping the order could cost us more than maintaining it.” She also cited benefits in terms of technology and research in Italy linked to the planes, as well as jobs that would be lost....

...However, Trenta said she saw merit in stretching out the purchases in order to free up resources for investments in European defense projects. Some 5-Star officials said last year that Italy should cancel the order for the fighters altogether, but Trenta made clear she had reservations about this. “No one is hiding the fact we have always been critical ... In view of the existing contracts signed by the previous government, we are carrying out a careful assessment that exclusively considers the national interest,” she said...."

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ital ... SKBN1JW28M

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2018, 11:13
by jakobs
Isn't the current order for 90 planes?

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2018, 15:21
by spazsinbad
LM F-35 Fast Facts repeats numberwize what is in this PDF:
"...Planned Italian Procurement
According to the official U.S. government program of record, Italy intends to procure a total of 90 F-35s. Under
the current plan, Aeronautica Militare is programmed to receive 60 F-35A CTOLs and 15 F-35B STOVLs, while
Marina Militare is programmed to acquire 15 F-35B STOVLs...." https://www.f35.com/assets/uploads/docu ... nglish.pdf (1.3Mb)

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2018, 16:26
by geforcerfx
jakobs wrote:Isn't the current order for 90 planes?


That was there procurement plan, but they have only ordered 30 so far (15 A 15 B). It's the same for most of the partners, the USA intends to buy over 2,000 F-35s between the services, but we haven't ordered them all yet.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2018, 03:57
by Dragon029
alex_f wrote:I too understood (speaking fluently Italian, btw) that they will not buy any further JSF. But they stick to the order they already placed. Would be too silly to cancel it now. On the other side, with this bunch of idiots in power right now, it wouldn't really surprise me if they did.


The question though is what 'more' / 'further' means; more than the ~30 jets paid for or the 90 aircraft program of record? If she's talking about not buying any more than the ~30 ordered, then how does one cut back on existing orders? Sell existing jets / parts in production to other F-35 customers?

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2018, 04:41
by spazsinbad
Yep there are 'weasel' words indeed about such matters - Canada now has 88 F-35 aircraft on 'program of record'. sheesh.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2018, 06:43
by Corsair1963
If, we had a dollar for every time Italy said they would leave the F-35 Program. All of the members could retire..... :wink:

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 00:06
by nutshell
pron wrote:News from Italy today.

ROME - The new Minister of Defence, Elisabetta Trenta, announced that Italy “will no longer be buying any F-35 planes” in an interview on the La7 Omnibus program on Friday.

“We have always been critics of the program and not afraid to hide it”, wrote the Minister on Facebook in a post where she shared the interview. “We will no longer invest in new fighter planes, and as for the contracts which have already been signed by the previous executive, we are carrying out a careful evaluation that exclusively takes into account the national interest.”


The only reason for keeping the current contracts would be because “we could find that terminating the contracts costs more than maintaining them. Around the F-35 there is technological activity, important research and of course employment which would be cut in turn. This is why we have to take care with our evaluation.”

http://www.italianinsider.it/?q=node/6962



I watch LA7 very often, that simply never happends.

She infact confirmed Italy commitment to the JSF only few days ago.

Fake news.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 00:12
by nutshell
Corsair1963 wrote:If, we had a dollar for every time Italy said they would leave the F-35 Program. All of the members could retire..... :wink:


Errrr no?

M5S and some noise from the right party, other than that nothing really.

F35 never been in discussion, not even under Monti's legislature.

Our defense minister said it clearly: Leonardo would go ham with legal actions.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2018, 01:36
by talkitron
The M5S party is the largest in the current governing coalition and some individual members have some non-traditional defense policy views. In addition to not liking the F-35, this article mentions allowing military members to join a labor union or "syndicate".

http://www.italianinsider.it/?q=node/5355

Here is the current defense minister, who is said to be a member of the M5S party

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabetta_Trenta

Nutshell, thanks for clarifying what might be incorrect translations of what the defense minister said in an interview about the F-35.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2018, 21:17
by talkitron
Italy will moderately cut its already low defense budget. It will cancel Tornado upgrades and slow down F-35 purchases.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... Ns.twitter

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 13:36
by hythelday
talkitron wrote:Italy will moderately cut its already low defense budget. It will cancel Tornado upgrades and slow down F-35 purchases.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... Ns.twitter


This week European Comission asked Italy to review its budget, present a new one within three werks. Let's see how it plays out in the end (the chances that Italy increases defence budget are... slim)

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2018, 13:57
by marsavian
On the bright side F-35 is not being cut which considering where Five Star started out is an achievement. Be thankful for small mercies ;).

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2018, 07:59
by spazsinbad
Italy signals slowdown on F-35 orders
09 Nov 2018 Tom Kington

"ROME — Italy will stretch out the order of F-35 fighter jets, buying six or seven of the aircraft in the next five years instead of the previously planned 10 jets, a government source told Defense News....

...The source said the plan did not envisage a reduction in orders, merely a slowdown of intake, which would leave the decision of the total F-35 purchase to a future government. Previous governments planned to buy 60 F-35As and 30 F-35Bs for a total of 90 aircraft. The new government will focus on spending plans over its five-year mandate and not beyond, the source said, adding that discussions are underway with the U.S. about the change in schedule....

...Italy has taken delivery of 10 F-35As and one F-35B. Two of the "A" models as well as the "B" model are being used for training in the U.S., while eight "A" models are now based at the Italian Air Force’s base in Amendola, southern Italy...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/11 ... 35-orders/

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2018, 17:35
by krorvik
Looks like even the former opposing party in Italy is realising what the plane can do:

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... alflow+DFN

No words on the rumored acquisition slowdown - but this might be prepping to let the program run it's course.w

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2018, 17:50
by steve2267

Italian Government Praise for F-35Shows Early Doubts Waning

...
“It is obvious we cannot deprive our Air Force of a great air capability that puts us ahead of many other countries,” said junior defense minister Angelo Tofalo during a speech in Italy’s parliament this week.
...



Who doesn’t like to be in the lead, and better than everyone else? Everyone likes to be a winner. Never get between a politician and a microphone from which he can declare his winning ways...

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2018, 18:45
by talkitron
The assembly facility in the Piedmont probably helps with the popularity of the F-35 in domestic politics. A similar dynamic might be in play in Japan, which just upped its order for F-35s.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2018, 04:10
by element1loop
steve2267 wrote:
Who doesn’t like to be in the lead, and better than everyone else? Everyone likes to be a winner. Never get between a politician and a microphone from which he can declare his winning ways...


We have another version of that, "Never ever get ­in between a State Premier and a bucket full of money." - former prime minister Paul Keating.

Bottom line though, Italy doesn't even have an empty bucket.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2019, 21:54
by spazsinbad
Italy Air Force chief attacks F-35 ‘uncertainty’ in Rome
13 Mar 2019 Tom Kington

"ROME – The head of the Italian Air Force has launched an unusually forthright attack on the Italian government’s see-sawing commitment to the F-35 program, and has claimed Rome owes Lockheed Martin €389 million ($439 million) for delivered aircraft. Gen. Alberto Rosso told Italy’s parliament on Tuesday that he felt “strongly concerned about the uncertainty” affecting the F-35 program in Italy “and the eventual hypothesis of a drop in numbers” or orders.

“Any alternative to the F-35 would certainly be older, outdated, less efficient and more expensive aircraft,” he told a joint session of the Lower House and Senate defence committees. Rosso’s speech followed months of ambivalence about the F-35 from Italy’s populist coalition government which took office last year.

One of the parties making up the coalition, Five Star, promised while in opposition to scrap Italy’s plan to order 90 aircraft for its air force and navy, but since taking office the new government’s defense minister — who was nominated by Five Star — has stuck with the program....

...General Rosso said he was “worried” about the program, which he called “the future of the Italian Air Force.” “Slow downs or reductions in numbers are extremely worrying for operational capability, for national industry and the economic benefits [the program]brings,” he said. He also confirmed Italian press reports this week that Italy is behind on payments to Lockheed Martin for aircraft, with €389 million in bills from 2018 still to be paid.

Italy is about to take delivery of its 12th F-35, has 25 trained pilots and declared initial operating capability in November...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... y-in-rome/

Italy's Salvini Defends F-35 Orders As Necessary for Country

Unread postPosted: 18 Mar 2019, 02:24
by Corsair1963
Italy's Salvini Defends F-35 Orders As Necessary for Country

By Steve Scherer, Giuseppe Fonte


ROME --- Italian Deputy Prime Minister Matteo Salvini on Thursday defended the country’s plans to buy 90 Lockheed Martin Corp F-35 fighter jets, following recent media reports suggesting that the order would be slashed back.

“Any effort to slow or review (purchases of the F-35) I would consider harmful” for the country, Salvini told reporters in Rome.

The comments by Salvini, who leads the ruling far-right League party, follow unsourced reports at the weekend in the Italian media saying Defence Minister Elisabetta Trenta was planning to slash the F-35 orders by two-thirds.

Trenta is from the populist 5-Star Movement, the League’s governing partner. 5-Star has always been critical of the F-35 purchases, saying the money could be better spent on welfare or to boost the economy, now in its third recession in a decade.

Last July, Trenta announced she was reviewing the F-35 orders, while noting that the penalties for scrapping the orders might be more costly than maintaining them.

After Salvini’s comments, Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte, who is not a member of either party, met with Trenta to discuss the F-35.



https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ital ... QV27K?il=0

Re: Italy's Salvini Defends F-35 Orders As Necessary for Cou

Unread postPosted: 18 Mar 2019, 19:33
by commisar
Corsair1963 wrote:Italy's Salvini Defends F-35 Orders As Necessary for Country

By Steve Scherer, Giuseppe Fonte


ROME --- Italian Deputy Prime Minister Matteo Salvini on Thursday defended the country’s plans to buy 90 Lockheed Martin Corp F-35 fighter jets, following recent media reports suggesting that the order would be slashed back.

“Any effort to slow or review (purchases of the F-35) I would consider harmful” for the country, Salvini told reporters in Rome.

The comments by Salvini, who leads the ruling far-right League party, follow unsourced reports at the weekend in the Italian media saying Defence Minister Elisabetta Trenta was planning to slash the F-35 orders by two-thirds.

Trenta is from the populist 5-Star Movement, the League’s governing partner. 5-Star has always been critical of the F-35 purchases, saying the money could be better spent on welfare or to boost the economy, now in its third recession in a decade.

Last July, Trenta announced she was reviewing the F-35 orders, while noting that the penalties for scrapping the orders might be more costly than maintaining them.

After Salvini’s comments, Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte, who is not a member of either party, met with Trenta to discuss the F-35.



https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ital ... QV27K?il=0


Good news that some sense is being spoken in regards to the Italian AF.

Re: Italy's Salvini Defends F-35 Orders As Necessary for Cou

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2019, 10:30
by Corsair1963
commisar wrote:
Good news that some sense is being spoken in regards to the Italian AF.



Actually, the Italian Air Force has always been very supportive of the F-35 Program. Just the Italian Politicians causing all of the drama and for political gain in the process....(surprise surprise)


As a matter of fact Italy would have made a lot of money on the F-35 Program. If, the politician hadn't cut it back! Then they have the "nerve" to complain about the cost and money spent! :doh:

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2019, 19:11
by doge
This time, the Italian news, I tried to look for search at the site of Gov/Mod or Air Force in Italy. (dug.dug.)
Posting will be longer again. Please pardon. :notworthy: language is all Italian. I used Google Translate.
The three articles to post, the content that was written was moderately interesting.

Italy ver fact.
http://www.aeronautica.difesa.it/comuni ... ureF35.pdf
F-35 the evolution of aerospace power from air superiority to information superiority
CAPACITY AND SPECIAL FEATURES
-The F-35 is a technologically advanced weapon system and belongs to the 5th generation of combat aircraft.
-It is a multi-role fighter whose peculiar characteristics make it able to respond to a variety of operational requirements.
-The F-35 is part of the complex evolutionary and transformation concept of the Aeronautics, increasingly efficient and integrated at the inter-force level which, in addition to guaranteeing the defense of the territory and the protection of national sovereignty, can express significant operational capabilities for and in the geopolitical system of international security.
-An evolution aimed at developing persistent surveillance capabilities and awareness of the operating situation, high mobility, more extensive integrated air defense capabilities and precision engagement.
-The F-35 is equipped with capabilities and technologies that will allow its use in operational activities in support of our land and naval forces and especially at the inter-agency level, collaborating with the other Departments in a wide range of activities for safety and for the good of the country.
-The uniqueness of the F-35 weapon system can be traced back to the synergy of the following fundamental characteristics that outline its peculiar capabilities

1 Very low radar and infrared observability
-The stealthiness or more properly the very low visibility (Very Low Observability) is a "native" feature of a weapon system, like the F-35. It cannot be "added" in later stages.
-Aircraft shape, engine, materials, edge and coating systems are developed to maintain radar and infrared signature at minimal threshold levels.
-The very low visibility allows the F-35 to be hardly discovered by enemy radars and anti-aircraft systems.

2 Superior combat performance.
-The F-35 thanks to the possibility of internally storing its armament keeps the low visibility unchanged and reduces the aerodynamic resistance to the advantage of aerodynamic performance.
-On the contrary, 4th generation aircraft require the use of additional equipment which further reduces operating parameters (speed, radar visibility, range, range of action, war load).
-The significant availability of fuel in internal tanks also allows the F-35 to operate with an unrivaled range of action and hourly autonomy, allowing a significant reduction in the use of tanker aircraft.

3 Netcentric operations.
-The F-35 can collect a significant amount of detailed information and communications in real time from a variety of different sources: surface ships, flying aircraft, fighter or radar aircraft, satellites, systems and ground forces.
-The information, images and data collected by their sensors are promptly distributed to the other weapon systems present in the operations area and to the command and control centers, helping to acquire an in-depth awareness of the operational situation necessary for all institutional decision makers , political and military.
-The F-35 is comparable to a server that, through a protected network, distributes to the various users the specific information necessary for the performance of the respective missions.
-Consistent Information Superiority capabilities able to contribute to the evolutionary concept of the Air Force.

4 Advanced Logistics Support.
-An advanced system of prognostics and aircraft management aims to guarantee maximum availability in terms of efficiency and rate of use, simplifying aircraft maintenance processes.
-The aircraft interfaces with the integrated logistics IT system, called ALIS (Autonomic Logistic Information System), which allows you to manage requests, movements and distributions of spare parts on a global scale, in a timely manner and according to the principle of just in time.

Questions and answers on the F-35:
-1 What is the difference between a 4th and a 5th generation aircraft?
In a nutshell, the elements that distinguish the F-35 from 4th generation aircraft are: the very low radar observability and thermal signature (stealthiness); the complete integration of discovery and communication systems (sensor fusion); the ability to exchange information (net-centricity); a profoundly innovative logistics philosophy based on an automated and widespread global support network.

-2 Which versions of the aircraft are of interest to the Air Force?
For our FA, two versions of the aircraft are planned: the F-35A, or conventional take-off and landing (Conventional Take Off and Landing - CTOL), and the F-35B, short takeoff and vertical landing (Short Take Off Vertical Landing - STOVL). There is also a third version, not of interest to the AM, the F-35C for use on conventional aircraft carriers equipped with catapults.

-3 Which FA aircraft will replace?
The F-35 will replace the Tornado and AMX aircraft.

-4 Which departments of the AM will be equipped with F-35 aircraft?
The F-35 fleet for the Italian Air Force will be distributed on two main bases: the 32nd Wing of Amendola (FG) and the 6th Wing of Ghedi (BS). On the basis of Amendola, the first 2 aircraft entered online on 12 December 2016.

-5 What is being done for the F-35 at the Cameri Base AM?
At the Cameri Military Airport an industrial plant called FACO (Final Assembly and Check Out) was built where the Italian F-35 aircraft are assembled and part of those destined for European countries. A significant number of the so-called "wing assembly" is also produced, a component that constitutes, by itself, about one third of the structure of the F-35 aircraft. All over the world there are only three assembly lines for the F-35: the Cameri FACO is one of these. This implies a significant return in terms of industrial benefits at national level and therefore for the country's economy.

-6 What is its name: F-35 or JSF?
The full name is "F-35 Lightning II (JSF)". The acronym JSF (Joint Strike Fighter) identifies the acquisition program, while "F-35" is the name of the aircraft that is completed with the nickname "Lighting II" in memory of the P-38 Lightning and English Electric Lightning aircraft, which they operated respectively during the second world war and in the period of the cold war.

-7 When was the first Italian F-35 aircraft delivered?
The first Italian F-35 was delivered on 3 December 2015 at the FACO facilities in Cameri.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2019, 19:22
by doge
It's written about the takes time and effort of flight list check work.
It's written that list check of F-35 is automatic. Interesting. 8)
Because it is long, I will not quote the latter half. (Omitted part: about MADL and ALIS.)
https://www.aviation-report.com/a-decim ... -avanzato/
F-35, SPECIAL AVIATION REPORT: one day with the Hawks of the 32nd Wing
In Decimomannu with the 5th generation aircraft of the Air Force engaged in advanced training
Gianluca Conversi 20 March 2019 Aeronautica Militare
"Six F-35A aircraft and a team composed of pilots and maintenance personnel of the 32nd Air Force Wing have deployed these days at the Experimental and Standardization Unit of Air Shooting (RSSTA) of Decimomannu (Cagliari) for a cycle of about three weeks of advanced training ".

In a press release dated February 8th, the Italian Air Force announced the redeployment at the Sardinian aerobase of a rate of aircraft, pilots and personnel of the 32nd Wing with the express purpose of proceeding along the path of full integration of the aircraft into the armed force and “consolidate the experience gained in the numerous operational capabilities already achieved with the new aircraft, including those related to its use in the airspace surveillance service, and to continue the path to reach the full operational capacity of the air system. 'F-35A weapon, primary objective after the Initial Operational Capability (IOC) achieved last November on the occasion of the 4th Flying Course of the TLP (Tactical Leadership Program) carried out on the Apulian air base ".

The issued statement finally described the types of missions carried out “both day and night, in coordination with the RSSTA of Decimomannu and the Interforces Polygon of Salto di Quirra. Thanks to the so-called omniruolo characteristics of the new weapon system, which characterize it as a 5th generation platform compared to the multirole ones of the previous generations, in particular for the unique capabilities of the new aircraft in terms of real-time data collection and management ( sensor fusion), it is possible to simultaneously express in flight all the range of aero-tactical capabilities in the past necessarily made with more types of aircraft. Pilots can therefore train themselves, during the same flight, to a wide range of missions, including combat with other air-to-air aircraft, engagement simulation with precision armament of targets on the ground, ISR activities (Intelligence, Surveillance And Reconnaisance) for data collection to support operations, close support activities for land and sea forces, electronic warfare ".

The missions organized and completed have allowed in-depth training without a real but simulated armament release thanks to the capabilities of the aircraft that is able to simulate scenarios of specific operating theaters with the threats subject of the exercises carried out, involving real or virtual assets acting in simultaneous with ground simulators.

As the note of the Air Force mentions at the end of the press release, “the capabilities of virtual and embedded training (simulator training and virtual training on board the aircraft itself) allow you to train in total safety on all procedures, operational tactics and on the development of the potential of the weapon system, as well as allowing a substantial cost reduction ".

Thanks to the great willingness of the Italian Air Force on February 18th we had the opportunity to participate closely in the latest missions of the Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II jets before their return to the Amendola base.

Exhausted the presentations and courteous pleasantries, the day began with the briefing during which we were shown the agenda of the day and the times available in addition to the information on security of which we appreciated the precise explanation of the reasons why certain actions are necessary, how they are implemented and in what perimeter they should be contextualized. A correct and precise “When / How / Why” approach that has clarified many aspects related to the necessary security around the weapon system, highly attentive in every respect.

F-35 Game Changer
Speaking of performance in the case of the F-35 means little: 50,000 foot tangency, Mach 1,6 maximum speed, considerable autonomy thanks to the large fuselage and the ultra-modern and highly efficient engine that guarantee unparalleled efficiency. These are not the parameters on which to base oneself to define a good plane or a "normal" aircraft. As we have been pointed out, the Joint Strike Fighter is something truly revolutionary.

Thanks to the advanced sensors, the engine, the weapons that can be loaded in the inside holds, its low observability that combines refined design, the materials used, the external coating (the infamous skin-coat), the silence in exchanging data with other aircraft capable of receiving and transmitting on particular frequencies in addition to the traditional and the Link 16, the definition "omniruolo" attributed to it is the product of the sensor-fusion among all the characteristics previously listed.

More than 1000 processors combine to collect and merge a multitude of data without equal to the system that processes them to provide the pilot only with what is really necessary at that given moment or according to his specific needs. All of this is shared in real time with other fine assets at a level that is not at all imaginable.

The software lines written for the overall management of the aircraft are over eight million (the F-22 does not reach two million while a Eurofighter Tranche 1 has requested one and a half million lines of code) and this number makes us immediately understand how much it was difficult to reach the ambitious goals from which the Joint Strike Fighter was born. To imagine a typical mission, the Commander of the 13th Group, call-sign "Falco 01", used a very simple example: "Imagine being invited to a big party in a very expensive villa equipped with avant-garde anti-intrusion systems in among many guests. "

"The F-35 arrives at the party undisturbed, enters from the back door, disables all the defense and alarm devices, hits the surveillance behind it listens and sees everything that happens, to then exit without the others noticing it ". The plane was born and can be used for single missions, in bad weather and in highly defended areas.

A redeployment of F-35 is news, knowing (or surprisingly learning) that an F-35 is in the area, obliges the hostiles to take it into account. It's called deterrence; deterrence produces security and, as stated by Julius Caesar, "Si vis pacem, para bellum" or "If you want peace prepares for war".

The F-35 carries out more missions together, in addition to acting as an electronic "vacuum cleaner" in collecting, processing and sharing emissions, sweeping the skies and the operations area for the benefit of other assets with its advanced sensors. moving from one mode to another immediately, hence the definition of an “omniruolo” plane, a term that differs from the more well-known “multirole” attributed to other tactical aircraft; if they are configured for an attack mission, they cannot fully perform air defense and to do so must be specially configured.

An F-35 can operate as a force multiplier, by analyzing the area where other "legacy" planes are destined to operate, transmits to them the data collected and analyzed, thus ensuring a security framework that can guarantee the aircraft package 4th generation to be able to operate safely in the area of ​​competence.

With another example, let's imagine swimming underwater in a pool and it's time to emerge to see if there are hostile forces at the pool that don't want us out. The F-35 helps the swimmer alerting him to the absence of threats or where to re-emerge and at what time to get around the danger or face it knowing where it is.

We are told that the JSF works in close contact and coordination with the two new Gulfstream G55O CAEW (Conformal Airborne Early Warning) radar aircraft with which it is able to exchange data in an ultra-safe mode, but also operates as a support to other assets such as the Eurofighter Typhoon in an operational binomial similar to that already experienced by the USAF between F-22 Raptor and F-15 Eagle).

In our opinion, in Aviation Report, from an operational point of view, the F-35s could carry out most of their missions on the Mediterranean again at the center of patrols by the Russian armed forces and other powers, but "to keep an eye on" even in the East where the energy interests around the island of Cyprus require caution and continuous monitoring. The area (divided into concessions) also sees among our other large energy companies our ENI hold concessions in which it seems that there are interesting deposits of gas whose product in the not too distant future could reach Italy in our present gasifiers and deposits In southern Italy.

The HMDS Helmet
During our on-line walk-through flight, located right in front of the former Luftwaffe building, now assigned to the 13th Group and always led by Major Maurizio, we are witnessing the parking maneuvers of one of the aircraft returned from one of the three missions morning. With the engines switched off, the ground personnel assigned to the aircraft opens the stealth compartment, its shape resembles an 8, placed on the left side of the F-35, extracts and extends the incorporated telescopic ladder in a few seconds.

The abandonment procedures by the pilot are roughly the same as any other combat aircraft including the removal of equipment containing all the mission data and those collected from the advanced sensors of the JSF.

While the pilot, assisted by his own specialists, completes the aircraft shutdown operations and prepares to extract the mission data that will be analyzed in the post-flight briefing, we learn that from the moment the aircraft is requested to its pilot to enter action takes about 15 minutes, time needed to start the start-up procedures and unmark the usual pre-flight check-list which, in the case of the F-35, is fully automatic. No list to be unmarked line by line: the machine does everything by itself.

The plane is parked with the two arms open, which are also during taxiing; inspecting them and dissipating the internal heat is much easier. We learn that in real conditions the opening for releasing the armament and closing the hold (or both) takes place in less than a second

The exact data is classified, but it is evident that this operation, even for a few moments, exposes a radar-reflecting surface (albeit very small and for a very short time) to hostile defense systems.

A handshake to greet the very kind pilot, let us pause briefly for a closer look at the highly sophisticated and for this reason also an expensive helmet co-produced by the Israeli Elbit and by Rockwell Collins; calling it a helmet is extremely simplistic, though.

The HMDS (Helmet Mounted Display Systems) is one of the key systems of the F-35, as our guide clearly illustrates. Its display systems offer pilots an unprecedented "situation awareness". All flight parameters and information necessary for pilots to complete their missions are represented on the transparent inner visor that partially covers the pilot's face: speed, direction, altitude, targeting, without forgetting the danger warnings represented in different levels (presence potential danger, attention to it, alarm).

Accustomed to seeing the "legacy" planes released by HUD (Head-Up Display), the cockpit and the HMDS of an F-35 seem to welcome us in the era of Star Wars. No coincidence that the Commander of the 13th Group has ruled that the Joint Strike Fighter "represents the last stage before artificial intelligence".

Returning to the HDMS, it is clear how it contributes decisively to reduce the pilot workload (the JSF is single-seater), increasing its reactivity with “the information needed at the right time and at the best cost-effectiveness ratio”.

The highly sophisticated DAS (Distributed Aperture System) of the F-35 transmits to the helmet-mounted viewer real-time images from 6 advanced infrared cameras mounted around the aircraft, thus allowing pilots to "look through" the aircraft structure simply by moving the head in the desired direction.

The helmet obviously allows night vision through the use of an integrated camera mounted at the forehead, integrated with the images produced and processed by the DAS and with the targeting data processed by the EOTS (Electro-Optical Targeting System), visible anteriorly under the radome.

Moreover, many of the technologies created for military use have had their application in civilian life: just think of aluminum foil, used for the external coatings of the first space capsules landed on the Moon, with the laser with exciters for refractive surgery, with video games with the consoles now equipped with visual devices that offer the player the possibility of "entering" the video game through the virtual reality provided by visual devices operating similar to the HDMS.

We must say that the comparisons and very simple practical examples but of an extreme incisiveness that Major Maurizio used to explain and make us understand the possibilities of this machine have been very well chosen.

But how does the HDMS work?
While the pilots of fighter aircraft of the 4th and previous generations controlled the flight information and the position of the other aircraft in the air space in front of the pilot projected on the HUD and managed dozens of spies, buttons and switches, the F-35 pilot he sees all this, and more, on his visor.

Simply by touching the 20 × 50 cm PCD (Panoramic Cockpit Display) touchscreen and 2560 × 1024 pixel resolution that replaces all digital and analogue displays on legacy aircraft or using a single button on the joystick, the pilot is able to switch the view between three feeds: real-time video of what happens outside, thermal images or activate night vision.

The helmet is custom built, the center of gravity is and must be absolutely perfect in order not to create disturbances to the pilot during the flight and the abrupt movements typical of a combat aircraft.

As the pilot's head moves, the data shown on the visor and the images produced by the 6 cameras of the DAS change. They are positioned in front of the cockpit and aft, plus four others are positioned below the cell. Comparing the vision provided by the DAS and elaborated by the HMDS to what the radiologist sees during a laboratory examination is very appropriate. Looking down, you don't see your military boots but it is as if the pilot had left the plane to observe what is below him.

Naturally, and as already underlined, the visual information is supplemented by the electronic ones in order to propose to the pilot the route data, targets and other tactical information pertinent to the mission and the area observed at that precise moment.

Getting these results was not easy. The first models of the helmet did not provide images as fast as the movements carried out by the F-35 pilots. The helmet is now able to detect exactly what the pilot is observing, in which direction, in what position it is finding itself, all thanks to a magnetic field generated by a transmitter placed in the ejection seat. While the head rotates, the sensors detect the change in magnetic field and the view (with the required data attached) instantly adapts.

For those observing from outside an F-35 it cannot fail to notice that the passenger compartment is not raised above the fuselage; an F-22 or a Typhoon are equipped with raised seats with the bubble of the raised roof to allow the pilot a wide view of the space around him. The HDMS performs (for the better, clearly and without precedent) the combination of the driver's view and the HUD offered by 4th generation aircraft.

The Hawks
The only department of the Italian Air Force today equipped with F-35A 5th generation aircraft is the 13th Group framed in the 32nd Wing that operates from the Apulian base of Amendola.

The current numerical consistency consists of 8 aircraft based in Italy and 2 permanently stationed in the United States at Luke AFB in Arizona where the international training center of this machine is located.

To reach full operational capacity, it is obviously not enough to be well trained and to have fully developed the tactics necessary to make the best possible use of the F-35 system, it will still take some time for the Group to reach an adequate numerical consistency (12/15 aircraft).

Observe 6 of 8 airplanes deployed in Decimomannu squares and see them all fly several times a day, reassuring and a positive indicator of the efficiency of the machines and of the degree of confidence and training achieved by pilots and airmen.

During the afternoon, we were able to attend a mission that would have been aborted for any other aircraft until the following day: one of the planes, already ready to taxi, remained in the parking lot for several minutes before being stopped. Pilots and staff have reached a specific area within which the data produced by the F-35 are decrypted and analyzed. Returned after several minutes to the aircraft, "restarted" the machine, performed the pre-flight checks (as already said they are completely automatic), the plane took off to carry out its mission.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2019, 19:24
by doge
It's written about the scramble mission at the time of Italy IOC.
It's a part that I am very interested in. 8) (How long does it take to take off, etc.)
http://www.aeronautica.difesa.it/comuni ... 07_19.aspx
F-35: IMMEDIATE TAKE-OFF
17 JULY 2019 Source 32nd Wing AMENDOLAAuthor Magg. Pil. Maurizio DE GUIDA
The narrative of a scramble
"SCRAMBLE OF TWO F-35 ON CONTAMINATED AIRCRAFT"
NARRATIVE OF AN EXERCISE
    The narrative that follows, very essential in the description of the salient phases, was used to describe a scramble activity of two F-35 aircraft during an exercise, coordinated by the IOC, held in May at the Pratica di Mare base.
    In the scenario that was recreated for the exercise, among the various activities, the identification in flight of a contaminated CBRN structure (ie with a possible chemical-biological-radiological-nuclear threat), coming from the south towards Rome, was simulated.

    Here's what happened ...
The integrated Air Defense system has identified the radar trace of the aircraft and reports it to the Command and Control bodies (IT-AOC - ITalian Air Operation Center of Poggio Renatico), which have the task of commanding and controlling the use of the assets of the Air Defense in cases of threat to national security.

The IT-AOC, having assessed the situation, commands the 22nd Licola AM Radar Group to order immediate take-off - in technical "scramble" jargon - for the pair of F-35 aircraft on national alert based on Amendola, in the province of Foggia.

At the "scramble" order, the alarm is triggered in the base. The siren suddenly breaks the silence and the wait becomes action ... speed of response.

Everyone knows perfectly well what to do ... like in slow motion ... but everything is very fast, almost in apnea.

The two pilots and specialists of the Group run fast towards airplanes ... less than a minute. The pilots, wearing the anti-G suit - to reduce the effect of the accelerations - the flight jacket and the helmet, climb up the ladder ... a leap and I'm inside the plane ...

Battery: ON. Auxiliary power motor: ON.

The hands run automatically to the straps that, at dawn before the start of the alarm shift, had been positioned precisely, as in a ritual, precisely because every second makes the difference.

Meanwhile, the engine starts, last checks ...

A few minutes and the F-35s move ... they come out of the hangars under the rapid but careful and expert control of the specialists.

While they are moving fast towards the "track head", from the tower the pilots receive the first brief information of the aircraft to be intercepted.

Aligned and ready, the brakes off, all engine and the takeoff run begins!

A few seconds in very strong acceleration with the post-burner inserted, 180 knots and take-off.

Another few seconds and, with the momentum of 450 knots, we are climbing towards 35000 feet, "riding" the barrier of the speed of sound towards the threat, towards the target.

During the flight phase, pilots receive instructions and information from the Air Defense controllers about the situation in progress, necessary to know what is happening and to know and decide how they will act, always within standardized and codified procedures.

The two F-35s are now traveling at the speed of Mach 0.95 (or if necessary, even at supersonic speeds).

After a first phase of flight and dialogue with the 22nd GrRAM controllers that alerted them, the two fighters pass under the tactical control of a CAEW (Conformal Airborne Early Warning) aircraft, a multi-sensor airplane with aerial surveillance functions , command, control and communications, functional to air supremacy and support to ground forces.

The CAEW, which was already in flight for a training activity, moved to the area and set up the interception tactics, driving the F-35s on the target aircraft.

There he is! Is in sight: the interception is performed with a subsonic flight profile. Today the target, from the information gathered, is an probably contaminated aircraft, and, once identified by the fighters, it is kept under control.

The leader of the pair of F-35 carried out a particular interception "geometry" to avoid being seen: he approached under the fuselage of the target to carry out a first visual reconnaissance, communicating anomalies and "number plate" to the Air Defense bodies .

Then it was flanked by the cockpit of the target aircraft to be seen by the pilot of the intercepted aircraft, both with visual signals, and by communicating via radio on a "guard" frequency, bringing all the salient elements to the chain of Command and Control by receiving instructions.

The wingman, the other F-35, remained in a position of backward cover, carefully monitoring with his sensors what is happening, ready to intervene.

The IT-AOC, depending on the current situation and the indications received from the Command and Control chain, orders the aircraft to be driven on the Pratica di Mare airport, which has been designated as the landing and intervention airport for the decontamination operations.

During the landing phase of the aircraft, the F-35s keep the area under control until the engines of the target aircraft shut down, to then return to their base, the 32nd Wing of Amendola, which since March 2018 is officially part of the device of National Air Defense, together with the Eurofighters at the Hunting Storms.

Adrenaline, action, precision and attention to detail as in a ritual, integration of the whole team, training: this is also the Air Force, also today at the service of the community.

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2019, 02:33
by Corsair1963
Italy complains about the cost. Yet, buys 15 F-35B's for the Italian Air Force and 15 F-35B's for the Italian Navy! :doh:

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 01 Aug 2019, 18:35
by spazsinbad
Italy Navy, Air Force debate where to base F-35Bs [it is complicated - so all the text is below]
01 Aug 2019 Tom Kington

"ROME – As the first Italian F-35B pilots begin training in the United States, a tug of war between the Italian Navy and Air Force over the aircraft means there is still no certainty about where Italy’s STOVL jets will be based, and who will have ultimate authority over them. “These pilots will be back in Italy next year after training and we still don’t know where they are going,” said an Italian analyst knowledgeable of the debate in Italy. The standoff suggests that moves in Italy to create increasing synergies between armed forces have a way to go. “This is a long way from being resolved,” said a defense source who asked not to be named.

Italy is likely to order 30 F-35Bs, which will be evenly split between the navy and air force. The first two jets, which are destined for the navy, are currently undergoing trials in the US. The navy wants the jets to replace its veteran AV-8 STOVL aircraft, and plans to fly them off its Cavour carrier as well as its under-construction Trieste Landing Helicopter Dock.

The Air Force, which will also receive 60 conventional F-35As, wants its 15 B-versions for deploying to temporary bases with short runways during overseas missions. “Given today’s tight budgets, it makes sense to have one base for all the F-35Bs, where training, maintenance and logistics can be focused,” said a second analyst, Alessandro Marrone, senior fellow at the IAI think tank in Rome. “Italy’s most recent defense white paper stresses interforce activity, and this is the moment – given that by definition the F-35 is an interforce aircraft,” he added.

The question is, which base, and under the control of which armed force? Air Force officials point to the UK’s example, where squadrons set up by both the Navy and the RAF to fly their F-35Bs are to share one base — RAF Marham in Norfolk, which is under ultimate RAF control. :devil: [FoffAirForce] :devil: The degree of interoperability is set to be high, involving RAF pilots flying off the decks of Navy carriers.

If Italy follows the same path, the air force’s base at Amendola in Puglia, in the heel of Italy, would be the obvious candidate to host all 30 F-35Bs. Eight Italian Air Force F-35As are already based at Amendola and infrastructure for the jet is already up and running.

“The UK model would work for Italy, with all 30 F-35Bs based at Amendola and one authority for maintenance for all Italian aircraft,” said retired Gen. Leonardo Tricarico, a former head of the Italian air force and now chairman of the ICSA think tank in Rome. Grouping the B’s and the A’s would mean one group of technicians could work on maintaining both types, saving precious resources and increasing efficiencies, said the first analyst.

Currently, the navy’s AV8s land base is at Grottaglie, which like Amendola is in Puglia, but is closer to the naval port at Taranto, where the Cavour is based, and which will be home port of the Trieste when it is completed. That means it makes sense to bring all 30 F-35Bs — both the navy’s and the air force’s — to Grottaglie, where they would fall under ultimate control of the navy, argued a senior navy official who declined to be named. “That allows the navy jets to be nearer to the carriers,” he said.

That view was challenged by the first analyst, who said the extra flying time from Amendola was minimal. The navy official argued that basing the B-version jets in a different location to the F-35As would not reduce logistics efficiencies. “First of all, a good deal of spare parts will need to be kept on the carriers, and secondly, since the parts kept on the shelf will be coming from Lockheed Martin in the United States, it is less crucial to have one big maintenance center in Italy,” he said.

The navy scored an early victory in the tussle when it was handed the first two Italian B’s rolled off the production line, despite many military planners believing the deliveries would alternate between the Navy and Air Force. Then came the thorny issue of which pilots, navy or air force, would take the first places on pilot training in the United States. The decision was due to made by Italy’s chief of staff, but was kicked upstairs to Italy’s defense minister, Elizabetta Trenta.

Five places were eventually handed to the Navy and only one or two to the Air Force, the first analyst said. “The decision was made just days before the pilots were due to leave in July, and the air force was understandably not happy,” he said. “And with no deal on basing yet, we don’t know where these pilots will go to when they return to in Italy,” he said."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... se-f-35bs/

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2019, 21:53
by marsavian
Italy deploys F-35 on first NATO mission

https://www.janes.com/article/91542/ita ... to-mission

https://theaviationist.com/2019/09/25/f ... g-mission/

The Italian Air Force (Aeronautica Militare Italiana: AMI) has deployed six Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) combat aircraft to Keflavik Airbase to conduct NATO air policing and training duties over Iceland.

The deployment, which includes an AMI Boeing KC-767 tanker, marks the first time a nation has committed the F-35 to an operational NATO mission. The aircraft and their support personnel arrived in Iceland on 26 September and will remain until the end of October, NATO Allied Air Command said.

The AMI will spend the first week conducting familiarisation flights over Iceland under the control of the Iceland Coast Guard Control and Reporting Centre Loki at Keflavik. The detachment will then be certified by NATO's Combined Air Operations Centre in Uedem, Germany, to fly air policing missions in Iceland's airspace.

For the 'Airborne Surveillance and Interception Capabilities to Meet Iceland's Peacetime Preparedness Needs' mission, as NATO officials call the deployment, alliance members undertake three- to four-week rotations within one of three four-month windows throughout the year. Typically countries contribute four aircraft per deployment, although this number is flexible.

Italy's latest deployment is the country's fifth time in Iceland and comes just months after it sent a detachment of Eurofighter Typhoons in March. The mission has also previously been flown by Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Germany, Norway, Portugal, and the United States. A planned deployment by the United Kingdom in 2008 was cancelled following its diplomatic row with Iceland over the Nordic nation's banking crisis, although in 2018 it was announced that the Royal Air Force (RAF) would deploy later this year. Further to the NATO members, both Finland and Sweden have deployed fighter aircraft to Iceland for training purposes.


Image

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2019, 19:16
by doge
:shock: Did Italy achieve FOC? :roll: (I don't know anything about FOC.)
Official website of the Italian MoD. http://www.aeronautica.difesa.it/comuni ... ility.aspx (Language is Italian. Google translation used.)
ICELAND: THE TFA 32ND WING ACHIEVES FULL OPERATIONAL CAPABILITY
05 OTTOBRE 2019 Fonte Public Information Office - RomeAutore Major Andrea Colotti
The Air Force with the Task Force Air 32nd Wing, will guarantee the airspace surveillance service in Iceland for three weeks
After an initial acclimatization period, but with a good 2 days in advance compared to the planned one, the Task Force Air 32nd Wing has reached the complete operational capacity, the so-called Full Operational Capability (FOC), of the mission, thus obtaining from NATO the certification useful to ensure the safety of skies in Iceland in the context of Air Policing operations.

Lieutenant Colonel Wilhelm May, head of the NATO team of evaluators from the CAED in Uedem, handed over the FOC certification to the Commander of the Task Force Air, Colonel Stefano Spreafico, thus officially starting the "Northern Lightning" operation.

" I am very proud of the result achieved ." - reported the Commander of the TFA - " We were able to reach this important goal two days in advance on the scheduled roadmap and this was possible thanks to a fantastic team work of all the staff of the Task Force and thanks to the great support from the CAOC team of Uedem and our Icelandic guests " .

The important milestone reached was formalized by a ceremony that ended with a solemn flag-raising ceremony, where the NATO flag was raised, delivered to the TFA Commander, by the Allied Commander of the Allied Command (AIRCOM), the Lieutenant General Pascal Delerce.

" For the first time a fifth-generation fighter, the F-35, will be used by NATO to safeguard the Alliance's airspace in an Air Policing operation - AIRCOM's Deputy Commander in his speech - It represents a big step towards the integration of modern combat aircraft in allied missions, demonstrating the ability of the Alliance to look to the future, integrating new technologies ".

To seal the important event, which saw Italy be the first Alliance country to employ an F-35 asset in a NATO operation, the Chief of Defense Staff General Enzo Vecciarelli and the Chief of Staff were present of the Italian Air Force, Air Force General Alberto Rosso.

" Today, with the achievement of Full Operational Capability by the Air 32nd Wing Task Force - the words of General Vecciarelli - we renew our commitment to actively contribute to collective defense. We have decided to contribute to Air Policing activities with our most resources In the coming weeks the F-35 A of the Mlitare Air Force, for the first time under the command and control of the Allied Air Command, will guarantee the safety of the Icelandic airspace and of the Alliance, in an important strategic portion of the euro region -atlantic ".

The mission of the TFA 32nd Wing aims to preserve the integrity of NATO's airspace, strengthening the surveillance activity of the skies over Iceland which has no capacity and structures for autonomous air defense.

The Italian Air Force participates in the Air Policing operation in Iceland with six F-35A aircraft. Pilots, Air Defense controllers, technical, logistic and Force Protection personnel will ensure the Icelandic airspace surveillance service for three weeks, leading, in the meantime, joint training activity with the staff of the Icelandic Coast Guard.

The activity of Air Policing is conducted since the time of peace and consists in the continuous surveillance of the integrity of NATO airspace as well as in the identification of its possible violations of integrity, before which appropriate action must be taken, such as, for example, the rapid take-off of interceptor fighter aircraft, which in technical terms is called scramble.

The Air Policing is carried out within the responsibility area of ​​the Allied Command of NATO (Allied Command Operation - ACO) based in Brussels and is coordinated by the Air Command (AIRCOM) of Ramstein (GER).

English articles
https://www.prpchannel.com/en/f-35a-of- ... n-Iceland/
F-35A of the Italian Air Force will guarantee the surveillance of the airspace born in Iceland
EVIDENCE 3, WORLD | 5 October 2019 23: 43
The TFA 32nd Wing formed by F35A aircraft has reached Full Operational Capability (FOC) and will guarantee the airspace surveillance service in Iceland for three weeks as part of NATO Air Policing operations. The "Northern Lightning" operation was thus officially started.

The important goal achieved, which sees Italy being the first Alliance country to use F-35 assets in operation, was formalized by a ceremony attended by the Chief of General Defense Staff Enzo Vecciarelli accompanied by the Chief of Staff of the Italian Air Force, Air Force General Alberto Rosso.

"Today, with the achievement of Full Operational Capability by the Air 32nd Wing Task Force - the words of General Vecciarelli - we renew our commitment to actively contribute to collective defense. Our country has decided to contribute to the activities of Air Policing with the most advanced resources, the F-35 A of the Air Force Mlitare, which for the first time under the command and control of the Allied Air Command, will guarantee the safety of the airspace in an important strategic portion of the Euro-Atlantic region ”.

The ceremony ended with a solemn flag-raising ceremony, where the NATO banner was hoisted, handed over to the TFA Commander, by the Deputy Commander of the Allied Air Command (AIRCOM), the Lieutenant General Pascal Delerce who pointed out that “For the first time a Fifth-generation fighters, the F-35, will be used by NATO to safeguard the Alliance's airspace in an Air Policing operation. This event represents a major step towards the integration of modern combat aircraft into allied missions, demonstrating the Alliance's ability to look to the future, integrating new technologies ".

Insights
The mission of the TFA 32nd Wing aims to preserve the integrity of NATO's airspace, strengthening the surveillance activity of the skies over Iceland which does not have capacity and structures for autonomous air defense.

The Italian Air Force participates in the Air Policing operation in Iceland with six F-35A aircraft. Pilots, Air Defense controllers, technical, logistic and Force Protection personnel will ensure the Icelandic airspace surveillance service for three weeks, leading, in the meantime, joint training activity with the staff of the Icelandic Coast Guard.

The activity of Air Policing is conducted since the time of peace and consists in the continuous surveillance of the integrity of NATO airspace as well as in the identification of its possible violations of integrity, before which appropriate action must be taken, such as, for example, the rapid take-off of interceptor fighter aircraft, which in technical terms is called scramble.

The Air Policing is carried out within the responsibility area of ​​the Allied Command of NATO (Allied Command Operation - ACO) based in Brussels and is coordinated by the Air Command (AIRCOM) of Ramstein (GER).

https://theaviationist.com/2019/10/04/t ... -airspace/
The Italian Task Force At Keflavik Has Achieved The FOC And The F-35s Have Started Safeguarding Iceland’s Airspace
David Cenciotti
The Italians have been declared ready to carry out the mission and have started their QRA duties in Iceland.
The TFA (Task Force Air) 32nd Wing at Keflavik, Iceland, that includes the Task Group Lightning alongside technical and logistics teams as well as a group of Air Defense controllers has achieved the FOC (Final Operational Capability) for NATO’s Icelandic Air Policing.

The certification, that came two days ahead of schedule, means the six Italian F-35 Lightning II aircraft have already started providing QRA (Quick Reaction Alert) duties, working with the controllers at the Combined Air Operations Centre in Uedem, Germany and the Control and Reporting Centre at Keflavik, Iceland.

The Italian F-35s, that have arrived in Iceland on Sept. 24-25 supported by a KC-767A tanker, a C-130J and a P-72A Maritime Patrol Aircraft, have been supporting the SSSA (Servizio Sorveglianza Spazio Aereo – Air Space Surveillance Service) with a Standard Conventional Load (SCL) that includes the AIM-120C5 AMRAAM (Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile) missile, since March 2018, when the 13° Gruppo (Squadron) of the 32° Stormo (Wing), the first Italian Air Force unit with equipped the Joint Strike Fighter, has achieved an IOC (Initial Operational Capability) in the air-to-air role.

A similar configuration is used for QRA shifts in Iceland during those, the interceptors supporting NATO air policing, carrying live air-to-air missiles, are regularly called to perform Visual Identifications on unidentified aircraft approaching Iceland’s airspace.

Interestingly, this is the first time a partner nation deploys the F-35 in support of a NATO mission. This also mean the presence of the 5th generation in Iceland will probably attract the interest of the Russians that will probably “pay a visit” to the international airspace off Iceland to have a close look at the F-35…

Let’s see.

Almost certainly, the Italian F-35 will not fly in stealth mode (meaning they will carry RCS Enhancers) during their stay in Iceland, in order to not give out any data/detail that could be used to “characterize” the F-35’s radar signature.

[Edited]

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2019, 19:41
by spazsinbad
'doge' my eyesight fails me with the text at minimal size. Please do not make the text so small. Thanks. Yes I can zoom the page to read the small text but why?

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2019, 19:54
by doge
spazsinbad wrote:'doge' my eyesight fails me with the text at minimal size. Please do not make the text so small. Thanks. Yes I can zoom the page to read the small text but why?

I made it smaller because I thought that if the text is big, it becomes longer vertically and scrolling the screen becomes troublesome. :notworthy:
But it was counterproductive. :doh: It is certainly hard to read.
I am very sorry! :oops: Edit back to the original size. :crazypilot:

Re: F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Unread postPosted: 14 Oct 2019, 21:43
by spazsinbad
Up Close And Personal With The F-35s Securing The NATO Skies Over Iceland :mrgreen: [unbraindead - no full stop - OK] :D
14 Oct 2019 David Cenciotti

"...From Oct. 2, 2019, the skies over Iceland are secured by the F-35A Lightning II aircraft belonging to the Aeronautica Militare (Italian Air Force). As part of TFA (Task Force Air) 32nd Wing (that includes the Task Group Lightning alongside technical and logistics teams as well as a group of Air Defense controllers) the stealth jets provide QRA (Quick Reaction Alert) duties from Keflavik International Airport, Iceland, working with the controllers at the Combined Air Operations Centre in Uedem, Germany and the Control and Reporting Centre at Keflavik.

Given its unique strategic geographical location near the Arctic region and since Iceland doesn’t have the necessary capability of its own, NATO Allies, in conjunction with the Icelandic authorities, have agreed to maintain a periodic presence of NATO fighter aircraft at Keflavik to help keep Icelandic airspace safe and secure. The mission is carried out by fighter aircraft from Allied nations that typically deploy to KIA (Keflavik International Airport) for rotations lasting around three to four weeks, three times a year.

For the current rotation, the Italian Air Force has deployed six F-35 belonging to the 13° Gruppo (Squadron) of the 32° Stormo (Wing) from Amendola Air Base in southeastern Italy. It is the first time the 5th generation aircraft are deployed to a mission under NATO command and control, making the current rotation a milestone not only for the Italian Air Force but for the whole Alliance.

The Italians have started deploying on Sept. 24, when the first formation of four aircraft left Amendola for Keflavik supported by a KC-767A tanker with the 14° Stormo from Pratica di Mare, a C-130J of the 46^ Brigata Aerea (Air Brigade) from Pisa, and a P-72A Maritime Patrol Aircraft beloning to the 41° Stormo from Sigonella. The aircraft refuelled twice along the route from the KC-767A before touching down at KIA. The remaining aircraft deployed on the following day....

...One may wonder why the F-35, that is not a “pure” interceptor, is committed to such an air defense mission. Well, the reason is quite simple: deploying the 5th gen. stealth aircraft under NATO command allows the service (in this case, the Italian Air Force) to test the asset as part of a different chain of command, with different procedures, on a different base, and in different (sometimes adverse/austere) weather conditions. The peacetime air policing mission requires the aircraft in QRA to scramble with live air-to-air missiles when there is the need to intercept, identify and escort, aircraft approaching or “skirting” NATO Ally’s sovereign airspace: a task that an F-35 is more than able to conduct. Moreover, the deployment on a NATO mission is one of the milestones the Italian Air Force has set along the path to achieve the type’s FOC ( BTW, it’s worth remembering that, first in Europe, the Italians declared the F-35’s IOC on Nov. 30, 2018)…."

Source: https://theaviationist.com/2019/10/14/u ... r-iceland/