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South Korea resets Fighter Jet bidding

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2013, 00:44
by popcorn
Since the F-35 is in no danger of being threatened by disqualification, a change is called for.

Boeing is still smarting from the recent turn of events and pins it's hopes on a split order despite clear indications that the SE is inadequate per ROKAF.
Funny that Boeing keeps singing it's "stealth has compromised the F-35" and "5Gen is a LM marketing slogan" when the customer isn't buying it and really places a high premium on stealth and the advanced capabilities of the jet.

As for an earlier delivery date, it's really up to the SOKOR government to expedite matters. The production line can easily accommodate a SK order.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 39.xml&p=1

...Muilenburg argues that for an assured price, an upgraded F-15 can offer Seoul a much-needed capability quickly. “The terminology ‘fifth-generation fighter’ is a convenient marketing tool” for Lockheed Martin, he says, referring to the F-35. “A lot of discussion has gone into all-aspect stealth. I prefer to talk about all-aspect fighters that are not compromised for stealth.” Though the Silent Eagle lacks all-aspect stealth, it is optimized for frontal aspect stealth and features a far superior ..payload and speed over the F-35, Muilenburg says.

RE: South Korea resets Fighter Jet bidding

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2013, 01:21
by quicksilver
The Commanding Officer of VMFAT501 -- having flown Hornets, Vipers, Raptor, and F-35 -- would disagree with Mr. Muilenberg.

But of course, some moron will claim he (the CO) is somehow under the influence of LM. :roll:

RE: South Korea resets Fighter Jet bidding

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2013, 02:50
by FlightDreamz
But the F-15SE was the only submission to make S. Korea's price point.

Re: RE: South Korea resets Fighter Jet bidding

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2013, 03:29
by cantaz
FlightDreamz wrote:But the F-15SE was the only submission to make S. Korea's price point.


At the expense of at least one major stealth feature (canted tails) and god knows what else.

Re: RE: South Korea resets Fighter Jet bidding

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2013, 05:26
by neurotech
quicksilver wrote:The Commanding Officer of VMFAT501 -- having flown Hornets, Vipers, Raptor, and F-35 -- would disagree with Mr. Muilenberg.

But of course, some moron will claim he (the CO) is somehow under the influence of LM. :roll:

Most pilots who actually fly the jet seem to like the F-35. Some are even F/A-18 pilots :D

RE: Re: RE: South Korea resets Fighter Jet bidding

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2013, 10:40
by mk82
I do wonder if the Boeing guys are brave enough to fly their "Silent Eagle" into a S300 rich IADS...with minimal EW support :P?

Re: RE: South Korea resets Fighter Jet bidding

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2013, 17:15
by maus92
neurotech wrote:
quicksilver wrote:The Commanding Officer of VMFAT501 -- having flown Hornets, Vipers, Raptor, and F-35 -- would disagree with Mr. Muilenberg.

But of course, some moron will claim he (the CO) is somehow under the influence of LM. :roll:

Most pilots who actually fly the jet seem to like the F-35. Some are even F/A-18 pilots :D


Some.... Publicly not towing the party line would be a career ender.

RE: Re: RE: South Korea resets Fighter Jet bidding

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2013, 17:54
by spazsinbad
Enough said I guess. :D

Re: RE: South Korea resets Fighter Jet bidding

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2013, 18:09
by neurotech
maus92 wrote:
neurotech wrote:
quicksilver wrote:The Commanding Officer of VMFAT501 -- having flown Hornets, Vipers, Raptor, and F-35 -- would disagree with Mr. Muilenberg.

But of course, some moron will claim he (the CO) is somehow under the influence of LM. :roll:

Most pilots who actually fly the jet seem to like the F-35. Some are even F/A-18 pilots :D


Some.... Publicly not towing the party line would be a career ender.

Can you hint at what the reasons are? Technical issues with the jet, performance vs a clean F/A-18 or limitations on the early jets limited envelope.

I know that some Boeing executives are still upset their X-32 didn't get selected, and Boeing touts the F-15SE as a F-35 alternative, but the avionics and mission systems are not at the level to justify a jet that isn't significantly cheaper (today, but not cheaper by 2020)

Re: RE: South Korea resets Fighter Jet bidding

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2013, 20:57
by gtx
maus92 wrote:
Some.... Publicly not towing the party line would be a career ender.


Is that really the best you can come up with?

Re: RE: South Korea resets Fighter Jet bidding

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2013, 21:33
by lookieloo
gtx wrote:
maus92 wrote:Some.... Publicly not towing the party line would be a career ender.
Is that really the best you can come up with?
While the concern trolling is annoying, pilots do have to watch what they say. Can you imagine what they must have thought about the Superhornet when it was new? Coming from any other legacy-type, it must have seemed like a complete dog (comparatively underpowered, pylons cocked half-face); fortunately for MD/Boeing, the internet was also a dog back then, so there was no need for public-affairs to do damage-control every time some paint flaked-off.

RE: Re: RE: South Korea resets Fighter Jet bidding

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2013, 22:52
by neurotech
The Super Hornet had a few teething issues early on, and came close to being cancelled. It was sold as a low-cost, low-risk Hornet "variant", but was basically a new jet. The avionics was basically transplanted from a F/A-18C/D already in service.

Stores separation and clearance issues created headaches and required the pylons to be canted more than the earlier F/A-18s. This was a trade-off to allow standard pylons to be used early on. They tested pylons with stronger separation force and other improvements but not implement them into the fleet. Transonic roll-off was another major issue, as was wing-drop in landing configuration.


Even though the internet commentary wasn't the same back in the late 90s, Congress still gave Boeing a lot of flak over certain issues, so thats not new to the F-35.

Re: South Korea resets Fighter Jet bidding

Unread postPosted: 13 Oct 2013, 05:29
by Conan
popcorn wrote:Since the F-35 is in no danger of being threatened by disqualification, a change is called for.

Boeing is still smarting from the recent turn of events and pins it's hopes on a split order despite clear indications that the SE is inadequate per ROKAF.
Funny that Boeing keeps singing it's "stealth has compromised the F-35" and "5Gen is a LM marketing slogan" when the customer isn't buying it and really places a high premium on stealth and the advanced capabilities of the jet.

As for an earlier delivery date, it's really up to the SOKOR government to expedite matters. The production line can easily accommodate a SK order.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 39.xml&p=1

...Muilenburg argues that for an assured price, an upgraded F-15 can offer Seoul a much-needed capability quickly. “The terminology ‘fifth-generation fighter’ is a convenient marketing tool” for Lockheed Martin, he says, referring to the F-35. “A lot of discussion has gone into all-aspect stealth. I prefer to talk about all-aspect fighters that are not compromised for stealth.” Though the Silent Eagle lacks all-aspect stealth, it is optimized for frontal aspect stealth and features a far superior ..payload and speed over the F-35, Muilenburg says.


So let me get this right. "5th Generation" is a Lockheed Martin marketing term when it's applied to F-35 but it wasn't a marketing term when it was applied to Boeing's intended F-32?

Right....

Where is Soloman and BS to swallow this BS hook, line and sinker, eh?

RE: Re: South Korea resets Fighter Jet bidding

Unread postPosted: 13 Oct 2013, 05:52
by gtx
Oh BS doesn't just swallow it...he actively preaches it.

Re: RE: Re: South Korea resets Fighter Jet bidding

Unread postPosted: 13 Oct 2013, 15:54
by sferrin
gtx wrote:Oh BS doesn't just swallow it...he actively preaches it.


Same with Solomon. After he didn't just swallow the bait but pretty much threaded himself on the line, he's become Bill's latest sychophant.