South Korea resets Fighter Jet bidding

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lookieloo

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Unread post13 Oct 2013, 20:54

sferrin wrote:Same with Solomon. After he didn't just swallow the bait but pretty much threaded himself on the line, he's become Bill's latest sychophant.
Soloman was every bit the idiot supporting JSF as he is opposing it. More interesting is ELP's response to Korean developments... not a single word. Apparently, he's decided to pretend that none of it happened.

As for a split-buy, I would understand if the Koreans saw fit to grab a few more Slam-Eagles in the short-term, but the SE still seems pointless.
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sferrin

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Unread post13 Oct 2013, 23:42

lookieloo wrote:
sferrin wrote:Same with Solomon. After he didn't just swallow the bait but pretty much threaded himself on the line, he's become Bill's latest sychophant.
Soloman was every bit the idiot supporting JSF as he is opposing it. More interesting is ELP's response to Korean developments... not a single word. Apparently, he's decided to pretend that none of it happened.

As for a split-buy, I would understand if the Koreans saw fit to grab a few more Slam-Eagles in the short-term, but the SE still seems pointless.


Yep. Back in the late days of F-22 production he was all up in arms about how the F-22 needed to die, die, DIE because the F-35 was where it's at. Not an original thought in that poor boy's head. :lol:
"There I was. . ."
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FlightDreamz

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Unread post14 Oct 2013, 00:10

cantaz wrote:
FlightDreamz wrote:But the F-15SE was the only submission to make S. Korea's price point.

At the expense of at least one major stealth feature (canted tails) and god knows what else.

True but you don't need all the "bell's & whistles" to counter North Korea's (almost non-existent) fighter force/threat.
mk82 wrote:I do wonder if the Boeing guys are brave enough to fly their "Silent Eagle" into a S300 rich IADS...with minimal EW support :P?

Fair point, but you could just as easily say the same about the F-35 or any of the other contenders. And why minimal EW support, the F-15 comes with a proven EW suite, the F-35 not so much (and yeah I know STEALTH! But they're still working the kinks out of the design trying to get to a full production rate).
neurotech wrote:I know that some Boeing executives are still upset their X-32 didn't get selected, and Boeing touts the F-15SE as a F-35 alternative, but the avionics and mission systems are not at the level to justify a jet that isn't significantly cheaper (today, but not cheaper by 2020)

True but it could act as a "bridge" to possibly purchasing F-35 Lightning II's later on, when it's in full production and the cost per plane is finalized (and hopefully lower). Just my :2c:
A fighter without a gun . . . is like an airplane without a wing.— Brigadier General Robin Olds, USAF.
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lookieloo

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Unread post14 Oct 2013, 00:35

FlightDreamz wrote:
cantaz wrote:
FlightDreamz wrote:But the F-15SE was the only submission to make S. Korea's price point.
At the expense of at least one major stealth feature (canted tails) and god knows what else.
True but you don't need all the "bell's & whistles" to counter North Korea's (almost non-existent) fighter force/threat.
Right... that's definitely what they're out to counter... because we all know that A2A performance vs the Kims is what should really matter to South Korea over the long-term. :roll:
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Unread post14 Oct 2013, 01:36

sferrin wrote:
lookieloo wrote:
sferrin wrote:Same with Solomon. After he didn't just swallow the bait but pretty much threaded himself on the line, he's become Bill's latest sychophant.
Soloman was every bit the idiot supporting JSF as he is opposing it. More interesting is ELP's response to Korean developments... not a single word. Apparently, he's decided to pretend that none of it happened.

As for a split-buy, I would understand if the Koreans saw fit to grab a few more Slam-Eagles in the short-term, but the SE still seems pointless.


Yep. Back in the late days of F-22 production he was all up in arms about how the F-22 needed to die, die, DIE because the F-35 was where it's at. Not an original thought in that poor boy's head. :lol:

So, a pattern then?
There are certain people that are always against whatever technology the military is currently pursuing, and will use whatever excuse is at hand to disparage it.
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FlightDreamz

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Unread post15 Oct 2013, 00:15

lookieloo wrote:
FlightDreamz wrote:
cantaz wrote:
FlightDreamz wrote:But the F-15SE was the only submission to make S. Korea's price point.
At the expense of at least one major stealth feature (canted tails) and god knows what else.
True but you don't need all the "bell's & whistles" to counter North Korea's (almost non-existent) fighter force/threat.
Right... that's definitely what they're out to counter... because we all know that A2A performance vs the Kims is what should really matter to South Korea over the long-term. :roll:

Still think the F-15SE could act as a "bridge" to future stealth purchase's later on. And it's bomb-hauling capability, Electronic Warfare suite, range, and yes air-to-air capabilities are known quantities. Boeing's fly-away price seems firmer to me as well. Not so much with the F-35, in the future certainly, but it's not quite there yet.
A fighter without a gun . . . is like an airplane without a wing.— Brigadier General Robin Olds, USAF.
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Unread post15 Oct 2013, 01:54

gtx wrote:
maus92 wrote:
Some.... Publicly not towing the party line would be a career ender.


Is that really the best you can come up with?


@gtx
@lookieloo


Read "The Pentagon Wars: Reformers Challenge the Old Guard" by Bradley, and get back to me. It's a book, available at many base libraries.
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Unread post15 Oct 2013, 02:30

maus92 wrote:
neurotech wrote:
quicksilver wrote:The Commanding Officer of VMFAT501 -- having flown Hornets, Vipers, Raptor, and F-35 -- would disagree with Mr. Muilenberg.

But of course, some moron will claim he (the CO) is somehow under the influence of LM. :roll:

Most pilots who actually fly the jet seem to like the F-35. Some are even F/A-18 pilots :D


Some.... Publicly not towing the party line would be a career ender.


Close enough. I rest my case...
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Unread post15 Oct 2013, 02:44

lookieloo wrote:
gtx wrote:
maus92 wrote:Some.... Publicly not towing the party line would be a career ender.
Is that really the best you can come up with?
While the concern trolling is annoying, pilots do have to watch what they say. Can you imagine what they must have thought about the Superhornet when it was new? Coming from any other legacy-type, it must have seemed like a complete dog (comparatively underpowered, pylons cocked half-face); fortunately for MD/Boeing, the internet was also a dog back then, so there was no need for public-affairs to do damage-control every time some paint flaked-off.


We don't have to imagine -- it's documented in the GAO reports of the period that catalog the deficiencies identified in test. Many of those deficiencies remain today.

Wanna see some big toes lined up on a party line -- go hang out at Tailhook. Navy Tacair has become homogenized -- Hornets, Hornets, and electronic Hornets.

No group think going on there... :wink:
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quicksilver

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Unread post15 Oct 2013, 02:47

neurotech wrote:The Super Hornet had a few teething issues early on, and came close to being cancelled. It was sold as a low-cost, low-risk Hornet "variant", but was basically a new jet. The avionics was basically transplanted from a F/A-18C/D already in service.

Stores separation and clearance issues created headaches and required the pylons to be canted more than the earlier F/A-18s. This was a trade-off to allow standard pylons to be used early on. They tested pylons with stronger separation force and other improvements but not implement them into the fleet. Transonic roll-off was another major issue, as was wing-drop in landing configuration.


Even though the internet commentary wasn't the same back in the late 90s, Congress still gave Boeing a lot of flak over certain issues, so thats not new to the F-35.


The scrutiny that SH got in the 90s pales in comparison to what F-35 has been through.
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popcorn

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Unread post15 Oct 2013, 03:44

What happens if Boeing and Cassidian change their minds and decline to participate in a future bidding? Presumably the SK government can negotiate a sole-source pricurement in the interest of National Security.
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lookieloo

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Unread post15 Oct 2013, 05:33

FlightDreamz wrote:
lookieloo wrote:
FlightDreamz wrote:
cantaz wrote:
FlightDreamz wrote:But the F-15SE was the only submission to make S. Korea's price point.
At the expense of at least one major stealth feature (canted tails) and god knows what else.
True but you don't need all the "bell's & whistles" to counter North Korea's (almost non-existent) fighter force/threat.
Right... that's definitely what they're out to counter... because we all know that A2A performance vs the Kims is what should really matter to South Korea over the long-term. :roll:
Still think the F-15SE could act as a "bridge" to future stealth purchase's later on. And it's bomb-hauling capability, Electronic Warfare suite, range, and yes air-to-air capabilities are known quantities. Boeing's fly-away price seems firmer to me as well. Not so much with the F-35, in the future certainly, but it's not quite there yet.
So now you're switching to the low-risk bomb-truck angle, which as I've already pointed out, would be better served with a quick F-15K purchase if NK were the only concern. Hell, FA-50s would be good enough were that the case (and hella cheaper). SE (firm price my a$$) has absolutely no reason to exist outside SK's embarrassing attempt to haggle the DoD on JSF pricing, and it failed miserably.

If Boeing wanted to remain in the fighter market past 2020, they should have focused on winning non-VLO competitions vs Eurocanards and Flankers after losing the JSF contest, not sad attempts to "me too" LM on "stealth" (no one really buys it). Lacking in signature, they should have been working on up-engined versions of what they already had, but they didn't, leaving them kinematically weak vs foreign competitors in places where the F-35 generates little interest.
Last edited by lookieloo on 15 Oct 2013, 05:41, edited 1 time in total.
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lookieloo

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Unread post15 Oct 2013, 05:39

deteted
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cantaz

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Unread post15 Oct 2013, 20:42

FlightDreamz wrote:Still think the F-15SE could act as a "bridge" to future stealth purchase's later on.


The point is that the F-15SE is so dubiously "Silent" that it doesn't seem to bridge much into stealth capability/operation at all. Why not just buy more F-15K at instead of paying a premium to try and pretend at being stealthy.
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gtx

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Unread post15 Oct 2013, 21:03

maus92 wrote:
gtx wrote:
maus92 wrote:
@gtx
@lookieloo


Read "The Pentagon Wars: Reformers Challenge the Old Guard" by Bradley, and get back to me. It's a book, available at many base libraries.


Well duh!!! Have book. Read it many years ago. Have you...or did you only watch the movie of the same name?

Have also served in military and have been involved with OT&E. What's your claim to fame?
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