Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

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marsavian

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Unread post26 Oct 2018, 21:28

Macron still not happy with this non-protectionist choice.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/defe ... ropean-in/

.Belgium's decision to buy US-made F-35 fighter jets instead of a rival European aircraft "strategically goes against European interests," French President Emmanuel Macron said on Friday.

Belgium announced on Thursday it will purchase Lockheed Martin's stealth jets in a multi-billion-euro deal to replace its ageing fleet of F-16s in a blow to rival French aircraft maker Rafale.

'I regret this choice. This wasn't just the Rafale offer, it was also the Eurofighter, a real European offer,' Macron told reporters in Bratislava.

'The decision is linked to a Belgian procedure, to the political constraints of the country, but strategically goes against European interests.'

He said: 'Europe must develop a real capacity for a European defence industry, in all the countries that believe in this venture.'
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Unread post26 Oct 2018, 22:24

I dunno - perhaps Belgium UNbelievers do not believe the MACARONI tosh:
'Europe must develop a real capacity for a European defence industry, in all the countries that believe in this venture.'
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Unread post26 Oct 2018, 22:40

STATEMENT: Belgium Selects F-35 Lightning II for Future Defense Needs
25 Oct 2018 LM PR

"...With its selection, Belgium becomes the 13th nation to join the F-35 program of record, a testament to the government’s confidence in the program and its industrial benefits. Lockheed Martin looks forward to extending the relationship with the Belgian government and industry participants for decades to come...."

Source: https://www.f35.com/news/detail/stateme ... ense-needs
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post26 Oct 2018, 23:10

Maybe they want Canada's work share? Or Turkey's?
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ricnunes

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Unread post27 Oct 2018, 01:13

marsavian wrote:Macron still not happy with this non-protectionist choice.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/defe ... ropean-in/

'The decision is linked to a Belgian procedure, to the political constraints of the country, but strategically goes against European interests.'



LOL, it goes against the European interests or goes against the interests of France??
Such petulance, hinting that France=Europe or that the interest of European countries should be France's interest :roll:

And then there are people still wondering why the UK left the EU...
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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marsavian

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Unread post27 Oct 2018, 06:14

ricnunes wrote:
marsavian wrote:Macron still not happy with this non-protectionist choice.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/defe ... ropean-in/

'The decision is linked to a Belgian procedure, to the political constraints of the country, but strategically goes against European interests.'



LOL, it goes against the European interests or goes against the interests of France??
Such petulance, hinting that France=Europe or that the interest of European countries should be France's interest :roll:

And then there are people still wondering why the UK left the EU...


Indeed, EU is just one big protectionist cabal that tries to shield myriad arcane interests from all its seperate constitutents from the rest of the World which is not the most efficient way to run a combined economy. The way Macron is talking it's almost like he views defense as optional, does it not matter how much better F-35 performs in some aspects purely because it's non-European ? Really ?
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Unread post27 Oct 2018, 06:57

From what I can see too, theres going to be more F-35s in Europe than Rafales, and F-35s have the Italian FACO

Makes ya wonder what counts as the "European fighter" that's built and operated there. The order is looking like Tiffie. F-35. Gripen of all stripes and then rafal in terms of sheer number
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ricnunes

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Unread post27 Oct 2018, 13:32

marsavian wrote:Indeed, EU is just one big protectionist cabal that tries to shield myriad arcane interests from all its seperate constitutents from the rest of the World which is not the most efficient way to run a combined economy.


The biggest problem with the EU is that it doesn't protect/shield all its constituents (at least not anymore). Currently the EU serves to protect the Franco-German Axis interests with the Germans actually doing the ruling while the French pretend that they also get to rule.
This arrangement allows the Germans to "de facto" rule the EU (some sort of a 4th Reich) while the French can run all the budget deficits it wants without having any negative impacts and/or interference from the EU itself or from other external sources (such as IMF).

marsavian wrote:The way Macron is talking it's almost like he views defense as optional, does it not matter how much better F-35 performs in some aspects purely because it's non-European ? Really ?


That's one of the examples of the French (this case Macron) pretending that it also gets to rule the EU. Pretending that it can order EU member states to purchase French..., err.. I mean, European fighter aircraft instead of superior (and cheaper) US fighter aircraft.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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ricnunes

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Unread post29 Oct 2018, 00:07

aasm wrote:how is he pretending to rule EU? He said he was disappointed and considered it to be negative. Can't he be alllowed an opinion?


No, he cannot or more precisely should not give his oppinion about this particular subject specially the way he did (claiming that the decision "strategically goes against European interests")!

He's clearly putting into question a sovereign country's (Belgium) decision to buy whatever that same sovereign country (Belgium) feels it better suits its military/defence needs and at the same time he's putting into question all of Belgium's top entities (such as government) that decided to choose the F-35 (and CORRECTLY SO!). And to make things worse, the Belgium fighter acquisition resulted from a competition (which the French tried to get around) and not from some unilateral decision to buy a certain aircraft!
If this is not pretending to be a ruler of the EU than I wonder what it would take to be such "pretender"...

If you still don't understand what you Micron president did wrong than I'm afraid that there's nothing else I can do for you :roll:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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ricnunes

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Unread post29 Oct 2018, 00:18

XanderCrews wrote:You mean to tell me the anti F-35 crowd is freaking out, the French are angry and Belgium is going to get F-35s??


Indeed. You just need to read two posts above to verify that :wink:


XanderCrews wrote:From what I can see too, theres going to be more F-35s in Europe than Rafales, and F-35s have the Italian FACO

Makes ya wonder what counts as the "European fighter" that's built and operated there. The order is looking like Tiffie. F-35. Gripen of all stripes and then rafal in terms of sheer number


Also true. And I'm willing to bet that soon there are probably more F-35s on Europe than Typhoons.
You have Finland in where there's a good chance for the F-35 to become with winner. Who knows about Switzerland?
Perhaps more orders from European countries that already ordered the F-35 in the future?
And then new countries such as for example Portugal. Yes, according to what I've talked about with some Portuguese Air Force staff, the only future fighter aircraft that is in consideration is the F-35.
Basically the plan is modernizing the current F-16 fleet to the F-16V standard and circa 2035 purchase the F-35.
Resuming, no-one in the Portuguese Air Force is even giving a slight consideration about aircraft like the Typhoon, Rafale, SH or Gripen.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post29 Oct 2018, 01:53

I'm willing to bet that soon there are probably more F-35s on Europe than Typhoons.


Typhoon orders: Austria (15)+Germany (143)+Italy(96)+Spain(73)+UK(160) = 487
F-35 program commitments: UK(138)+Dutch(85)+Italy(90)+Norway(48)+Denmark(48)+Turkey(100) = 509 (excl Belgium).

The anti-F35 crowd will of course argue that the UK, Dutch and Italians will not order its full program commitments, the Turks will get embargoed, etc. By Lot 14, there should be 181 confirmed orders (at least 30 a year). I would estimate before 2025, orders should surpass Rafale (280+), 2030-2035 European orders surpass the Typhoon.

If one checks in terms of serviceability, won't be surprised if the F-35 already has more flying than the Typhoon.
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Unread post29 Oct 2018, 03:51

weasel1962 wrote:If one checks in terms of serviceability, won't be surprised if the F-35 already has more flying than the Typhoon.


Done ; 4 out of 128 in Germany : https://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germany ... a-43611873
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Unread post29 Oct 2018, 06:24

weasel1962 wrote:
I'm willing to bet that soon there are probably more F-35s on Europe than Typhoons.


Typhoon orders: Austria (15)+Germany (143)+Italy(96)+Spain(73)+UK(160) = 487
F-35 program commitments: UK(138)+Dutch(85)+Italy(90)+Norway(48)+Denmark(48)+Turkey(100) = 509 (excl Belgium).

The anti-F35 crowd will of course argue that the UK, Dutch and Italians will not order its full program commitments, the Turks will get embargoed, etc. By Lot 14, there should be 181 confirmed orders (at least 30 a year). I would estimate before 2025, orders should surpass Rafale (280+), 2030-2035 European orders surpass the Typhoon.

If one checks in terms of serviceability, won't be surprised if the F-35 already has more flying than the Typhoon.



I would remind the critics that they usually end up buying more. For example how many Eagles, Vipers, Hornets, and Super Hornets. Did they initially plan for vs how many they actually got.... :wink:
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Unread post29 Oct 2018, 07:51

Some of us are unfortunately old enough to remember when USN wanted 1000 super hornets. Some are downright geriatric to remember when Iran got approved for 160 F-16s.
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Unread post29 Oct 2018, 10:10

weasel1962 wrote:Some of us are unfortunately old enough to remember when USN wanted 1000 super hornets. Some are downright geriatric to remember when Iran got approved for 160 F-16s.



I remember when Viktor Belenko defected to Japan with a Mig-25. Which, was "State of the Art" and super secret! :shock:
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