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Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2016, 05:04
by Corsair1963
spazsinbad wrote:
RNLAF commander pushes for F-35-based Joint air force with Belgium
30 May 2016 Nathan Gain

"The Dutch air force commander invited himself in the debate on the successor of Belgian Air Force’s F-16 fleet. General Alexander Schnitger suggested on Flemish - VRT that Belgium purchase the same type of aircraft selected by the Royal Netherlands Air Force (RNLAF) – the F-35 Lightning II – to create a joint Dutch-Belgian air force.

”I see significant benefits in building (military) cooperation between our two countries,” he said on the Flemish public channel, referring to the joint missions the two air forces would conduct. "Why not building a strong sole air force from two small ones,” added Schnitger. "From my perspective this would naturally help a lot if we finally choose the same type of fighter as this would facilitate integration,” he said....

...Belgium approved in last December the purchase of 34 new fighter aircraft to be acquired from Spring 2018 for an amount of 3,573 billion euros...."

Source: http://www.airrecognition.com/index.php ... lgium.html



He makes a good case......(IMHO) :wink:

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2016, 08:26
by krorvik
He does indeed. UK, Norway, Holland, Denmark, Italy - and hopefully Belgium and Finland.

Add in JSM and the Turkish alternative to this mix.

This makes for a hell of a cooperative environment in Europe. And a headache for anyone trying to do bad things(TM).

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2016, 05:42
by m
spazsinbad wrote:
RNLAF commander pushes for F-35-based Joint air force with Belgium
30 May 2016 Nathan Gain

"The Dutch air force commander invited himself in the debate on the successor of Belgian Air Force’s F-16 fleet. General Alexander Schnitger suggested on Flemish - VRT that Belgium purchase the same type of aircraft selected by the Royal Netherlands Air Force (RNLAF) – the F-35 Lightning II – to create a joint Dutch-Belgian air force.

”I see significant benefits in building (military) cooperation between our two countries,” he said on the Flemish public channel, referring to the joint missions the two air forces would conduct. "Why not building a strong sole air force from two small ones,” added Schnitger. "From my perspective this would naturally help a lot if we finally choose the same type of fighter as this would facilitate integration,” he said....

...Belgium approved in last December the purchase of 34 new fighter aircraft to be acquired from Spring 2018 for an amount of 3,573 billion euros...."

Source: http://www.airrecognition.com/index.php ... lgium.html


27 mei 2016
http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/4268798/henni ... lbaar.html

Google Translate
May 27, 2016
Defense Minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert Friday after the cabinet meeting.She responded thus on the statements of the Dutch Air Force Commander Alexander Schnitger. He pleaded Friday at the Belgian radio to join the air force of the two countries. "Why not make two relatively small air forces one medium air force?"

According Hennis is conceivable that the Netherlands and Belgium continue to work together more closely. "But that will not happen tomorrow."

One of the hurdles that must be taken is that the Belgians will replace their F-16s by the Joint Strike Fighter. The Netherlands has opted for the F35 and the Belgians have yet to make a decision.
http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/4268798/henni ... lbaar.html


“Building (military) cooperation between our two countries” as the general proposes is a possibility, but one integrated Airforce will be hardly possible.
As well as both navies do have a strong cooperation, concerning the Netherlands it needs a or at least some possibility to operate on their own

May be not known. Since 2010 three Islands are a part of the Netherlands
(Free choice of these Islands to become a part of Dutch territory)
The Netherlands since then it’s known as: Continental Netherlands and Caribean Netherlands.
Together with the other three independent states (Islands) they form the Kingdom of the Netherlands

It’s not possible for Belgium military personnel, technical personnel or pilots, to operate in case of tensions, on the Antilles.
When tensions would become severe (in 2015 an American civil aircraft was shot down by Venezuela) airspace needs to be controlled by at least some Dutch aircraft.

From a political view it’s not possible for Belgium sending military personnel.
QRA could not be done by Belgium pilots, technical personnel included.
Belgium in that case would be a part of the conflict.

Although in case of war it’s not possible to defend territory of (Caribean) Netherlands or the other three states (islands).
The only ally to be trusted on by the Netherlands to defend their territory are the United States. NATO is forbidden to operate in this region.
Case studies are clear about help from other European countries. In case of real problems the Dutch are on their own, like the British and the Falklands (Monroe doctrine)

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2016, 02:31
by talkitron
Any kind of joint program between Belgium and the Netherlands would probably end up being used by politicians to reduce the total fighter buy below the sum of the amounts that would be ordered if purchased separately. Politicians are always trying to get the budget to work out, as is their job. Voters like having a military but do not have much sense of the unit count of particular weapon systems.

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2016, 17:56
by m
talkitron wrote:Any kind of joint program between Belgium and the Netherlands would probably end up being used by politicians to reduce the total fighter buy below the sum of the amounts that would be ordered if purchased separately. Politicians are always trying to get the budget to work out, as is their job. Voters like having a military but do not have much sense of the unit count of particular weapon systems.

A joint program is not possible, Belgium is not a levelpartner. Although mentioned in the Belgium press, ordering the F35 together, the minister of the Dutch Defence at that time explained this was a main reason

Either joining a possible block buy could be a possibility for the BAF.
This could result in ordering a less expensive F35 for Belgium

Still when both countries both will fly the F35 a lot will be possible, probably much more then the F16 EPAF cooperation ever was. Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, UK, Italy. Plus probably Belgium and Finland

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2017, 23:38
by steve2267
Is Belgium still on track to choose an F-16 replacement / place an order in 2018? From the news, I see they have either approved or have a requirement for thirty-four (34) aircraft to replace their F-16s.

Is the F-35 still considered the front runner for a replacement? By the time 2018 rolls around, I honestly don't see how you will be able to purchase any tactical western fighter aircraft for less than the F-35A. Maybe Gripen, but I doubt it, the way Saab and the Swedes are going. (And to make it "worthwhile," a new Gripen would have to cost less than 1/2 of an F-35 -- from a capability standpoint -- and that is not going to happen.)

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2017, 02:14
by jakobs
steve2267 wrote:Is the F-35 still considered the front runner for a replacement?


Belgium store B61's, so anything else would be retarded IMO.

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2017, 18:25
by talkitron
No news on Belgium but I like this overview of European fighter procurement.

http://aviationweek.com/farnborough-air ... -countries

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2017, 18:04
by pron
A small surprise today when Belgium sends a request for new fighters to Sweden.

Here the news translated with Google:

Sweden, through FMV received a quotation from Belgium concerning the procurement of fighter aircraft.
- Belgium, Sweden would fit well in terms of defense benefits in the form of cost sharing in the development and operation of Gripen E says Joakim Wallin, head of exports at FMV. Belgium wants a close and extensive cooperation with the country from which they buy fighter aircraft and it is through these partnerships, we can find solutions that deliver cost for both countries.

- We are now in collaboration with Saab AB, analyze and evaluate the incoming request to see how we can best respond to it.

Link to original in swedish - http://fmv.se/sv/Nyheter-och-press/Nyhe ... -Gripen-E/

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2017, 19:15
by botsing
pron wrote:A small surprise today when Belgium sends a request for new fighters to Sweden.

Not really a surprise.

Last Friday Dutch news reported that Belgium will start the replacement process of its F-16 and will choose from these five planes: Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen, F-18 E/F and F-35.

So naturally, like the other candidates, they (Saab through FMV) received a request for information.

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2017, 21:02
by hythelday
botsing wrote:
pron wrote:A small surprise today when Belgium sends a request for new fighters to Sweden.

Not really a surprise.

Last Friday Dutch news reported that Belgium will start the replacement process of its F-16 and will choose from these five planes: Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen, F-18 E/F and F-35.

So naturally, like the other candidates, they (Saab through FMV) received a request for information.


SAAB withdraws because "Americans have everyone bought off", not because they know they'll lose.
Dassault will offer something, but not try real hard because they are happy with current orders.
Eurofighter puts a little more effort, especially utilizing ze Germans.
Boeing sues Belgians even before official decision is made in order to have a head start in upcoming legal battle.
LM wins.

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2017, 21:21
by Tiger05
hythelday wrote:Boeing sues Belgians even before official decision is made in order to have a head start in upcoming legal battle.


LOL :lmao:

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2017, 11:32
by barrelnut
Belgian Defence,
Air Combat Capability Program,
Request for Government Proposal:

http://www.vandeput.fgov.be/sites/defau ... osal_0.pdf

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2017, 15:04
by botsing
barrelnut wrote:Belgian Defence,
Air Combat Capability Program,
Request for Government Proposal:

http://www.vandeput.fgov.be/sites/defau ... osal_0.pdf

Thank you for your post!

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2017, 16:53
by Dragon029
Looking at the terminology they're using, the relative weightings and the scenarios, it seems like the F-35 has this one in the bag; there seems to be a big emphasis on information gathering / ISR, the ability to fuse data, search and destroy, work in a joint environment, have good survivability, etc.