Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

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SpudmanWP

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 17:43

What was the reaction when Belgium originally picked the F-16?

What was the reaction when Dassault tried the backdoor (bribery) approach as opposed to submitting a bid alongside the F-35 and Eurofighter? ?
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Tiger05

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 18:16

aasm wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:
duplex wrote:http://www.brusselstimes.com/belgium/12933/belgium-opts-for-american-f-35-as-successor-to-f-16

Based in Europe I closely watch the news media ..The French are very disappointed and determined to fight for the Rafale. Defence minister Mrs Parly has been bad-mouthing the F-35 since months .


If they felt that the Rafale was the better choice then they should have competed fairly instead of trying to win via backroom deals. Has France not learned anything from all the bad press about bribes?


Impossible due to B-61.


The nuclear requirement was a minor point in the RFGP. It never was a deal breaking point.

Boeing ad SAAB also retracted because they considered the RFGP as rigged.


More like because they knew they couldnt compete against the F-35 in terms of performances and cost. And Boeing probably wanted to avoid another humiliation after Denmark.

I am sure this is one of the reasons Dassault also opted out of the RFGP and tried to bypass it. They wanted to avoid a direct comparison with the F-35 at all costs.
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hythelday

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 18:45

@aasm, questions for you:

1) Do you consider Belgian competition rigged?
2) Was Danish competition also rigged?
3) Will the Finnish competition also be considered rigged in case F-35 wins it?
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marsavian

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 19:54

The total price of the deal, including the jets, pilot training, hangars and upkeep until 2030 was worth 4 billion euros, Vandeput said, compared with the original budget of 4.6 billion euros.

Over the 40-year life of the aircraft, the deal will cost Belgium 12.4 billion euros, rather than the 15 billion euros first projected, he said.

Each plane is likely to cost Belgium around 76 million euros, slightly less than the amount paid by the Netherlands and Italy, according to Belgian newspaper Le Soir, citing a closed-door briefing by Belgian air force personnel to lawmakers on Wednesday, when the final decision was taken.
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ricnunes

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 21:42

aasm wrote:
What the heck are you saying?? The F-35 has the most open architecture among any fighter aircraft developed so far and the vast majority of its systems are software based where many of its systems are even designed on an open and well known programming language, C++.
You can hardly get a more open architecture than the F-35 in a fighter aircraft. I guess you really new to revise your knowledge about ITs (information Technologies) namely about the concept of "open architecture".



You see? You are still thinking in terms of platform, not system. I am talking about an open network/system of systems. Btw, C++ is an error prone language. Hence maybe the difficulties and bugs along development.But it is very difficult nowadays to find programer still workin "from scratch" in ADA or whatever.


You don't seem to know what open architecture is all about!

On top of what others have already replied to you, you forget things like this:
https://www.raytheon.com/news/feature/s ... _of_a_kind
(F-35 guides a SM-6 missile).

The F-35 is also being connected to HIMARS. The F-35 can provide shooting cue for any other allied aircraft (not just other F-35s). It can/will connect to drones. I could go on, and on and on...
The difficulties and bugs along the F-35's development had nothing to do with the C++ language. They had to do with the F-35 being a major groundbreaking in technology which includes being a "system-of-systems" (a subject of which you're currently widening your mouth so much about).
So according to your latest BS, the F-35 is an "enclosed system". If it is an "enclosed system" how come it can provide targeting to a SM-6 missile for instance??

You know, all that French BS about their next future fighter aircraft being a first system-of-system it's all pure and simple PR. The F-35 has been there, it does that and will likely do it even better (even because its customer base will be far, far bigger).

Oh and before you feel somehow "insulted" by my post remember what hythelday previously told you:
@aasm, next time someone is sarcastic about "eurocanards" and "Rafale fanboys", remember - it's people like you who caused it.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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ricnunes

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 21:51

Anyway and getting back to the topic's subject.

Great news about Belgium selecting the F-35! It's always great to see good sense prevailing over nasty politics such as "bribing attempts" in order to overcome what was a fair competition.
And speaking of which, remember that the F-35 has WON all competitions that it entered so far!
So all those butt-hurt French should look at this first before claiming BS such as this Belgium's competition being rigged. :roll:

I just hope that this helps the Canadians to finally get their "heads straight" and that Canada finally selects the F-35 ASAP.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 22:05

The F-35 has several aspects of it that are unarguably an "open-architecture" system.

The first that comes to mind is UAI. This currently allows for a client to use any weapon (where the mfg has written a "driver") on the F-35 once separation testing is done. This does not require a new block upgrade to get the "driver" as it is uploaded as part of the mission planning. UAI "drivers" also integrate into the mission planning software to allow for planning of release points, range estimations based on drag, etc. Currently UAI only covers A2G weapons but it is already working on expanding the functionality to cover not only A2A weapons, but also pods (IRST, RECON, jammers, etc).

The second and most complex system that is "open" is the avionics. Currently there is an API that allows a client to create their own "apps" that can run in the F-35 environment, draw from it's sensors, and use its hardware. They are working on making it better, but Israel is using the existing API for it's C4 integration.

“Yes, it is straightforward to tap into that [F-35 system] data and build upon that information to make new applications or add new functionality that benefits the overall fight,” John Clark agrees. Clark is director of mission systems and software at Lockheed Martin’s Skunk Works, which is working with the U.S. Air Force to craft a software protocol called Open Mission Systems (OMS), designed to enable faster technology insertion into existing and future platforms.

By standardizing the process for moving data around the F-35’s open architecture backbone, OMS will enable more rapid software development and mission systems integration. The protocol is still in development but is planned to be introduced on the F-35 “in the near future,” says Lockheed. By working independently, however, Israel may have already changed the game.

Israel will not add its C4 system using OMS but instead exploit the F-35’s existing openness. Whenever OMS does arrive, the fact that someone has already written an app for the aircraft now provides F-35 customers the option to add their own software, rather than waiting for upgrades planned by the U.S. Current plans for the JSF partner nations to develop a follow-on Block 4 software package are not expected to start until 2018 and will take six years.


http://aviationweek.com/defense/israel- ... plications
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marsavian

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 22:14

Some, if not all of these Belgium F-35s will be Block 4, more future-proofing. Germany/Italy should buy it too for their Tornado replacement but that would make far too much sense, both technical and financial ;). After all they are supposed to be replacing a strike aircraft not an interceptor which would be the only real technical leg Typhoon could stand on versus F-35.
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noth

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 22:58

I suspect aasm's gripe over the software is not having access to all the source code, not the fact that the SDK is available. That's his Open vs Closed argument. It's been a complaint raised by many a critic of the program who isn't American, especially as the British were to have access originally but were then denied. Or at least that was one of points of being a Tier-1 partner.

As for ADA vs C++, good luck hiring ADA programmers, and seeing the problems holding back the deployment of Block 3F, I can't imagine how difficult it'd be doing it all in ADA.
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weasel1962

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Unread post26 Oct 2018, 01:24

marsavian wrote:Some, if not all of these Belgium F-35s will be Block 4, more future-proofing. Germany/Italy should buy it too for their Tornado replacement but that would make far too much sense, both technical and financial ;). After all they are supposed to be replacing a strike aircraft not an interceptor which would be the only real technical leg Typhoon could stand on versus F-35.


Block buy is lot 12-14 which is what the Belgians sign up to. Blk 4.1 will be from lot 13 but its mainly a software drop which can easily be downloaded into block 3Fs. What'd probably happen is the contract will include the retro-software drop so all can be considered as block 4.1. C2D2.

The Europeans have a different stake. Supporting local industry. Its not about building the best plane but building a locally built plane. Jobs. The more planes bought, the cheaper the plane. It may be cheaper to buy into the F-35 but that cost savings will be eliminated when they build far less numbers of the NGF. If they buy only F-35, then all jobs lost. So if NGF is decided, the only option is to ensure that max number of NGF is procured.
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citanon

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Unread post26 Oct 2018, 02:52

Thing is, how many governments in Europe actually believe that NGF will materialize before everyone is retired or dead? If you are the Italians, would you think you're better off going with ngf or getting more work share on the F-35 that Leonardo is already manufacturing?
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weasel1962

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Unread post26 Oct 2018, 03:41

Workshare's only Italian program. France or Germany won't get squat for any F-35 buys. A new program provides work for all 3.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post26 Oct 2018, 04:30

weasel1962 wrote:Block buy is lot 12-14 which is what the Belgians sign up to.
The quotes floating around state that deliveries will start in 2023 which mean the first order is in 2021 which is Lot 15.
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weasel1962

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Unread post26 Oct 2018, 04:43

SpudmanWP wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:Block buy is lot 12-14 which is what the Belgians sign up to.
The quotes floating around state that deliveries will start in 2023 which mean the first order is in 2021 which is Lot 15.


Then that will be totally Blk 4.2 which includes all the new hardware, whistles et al...brilliant.
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Unread post26 Oct 2018, 06:54

weasel1962 wrote:Workshare's only Italian program. France or Germany won't get squat for any F-35 buys. A new program provides work for all 3.


Just like for Japan, German and French workshare would depend on convincing the other JSF members
that the gains from the size of the combined buy are worth the industrial complications.
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