Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

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aasm

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 10:03

What the heck are you saying?? The F-35 has the most open architecture among any fighter aircraft developed so far and the vast majority of its systems are software based where many of its systems are even designed on an open and well known programming language, C++.
You can hardly get a more open architecture than the F-35 in a fighter aircraft. I guess you really new to revise your knowledge about ITs (information Technologies) namely about the concept of "open architecture".



You see? You are still thinking in terms of platform, not system. I am talking about an open network/system of systems. Btw, C++ is an error prone language. Hence maybe the difficulties and bugs along development.But it is very difficult nowadays to find programer still workin "from scratch" in ADA or whatever.
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bumtish

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 10:46

aasm wrote:
Why? Do you think we europeans are living in middle age? Anyway, feel free to think that Europe is unable to do so. For many of us, as i said somewhere, F-35 is both the paramount of fourth Gen (in terms of capabilities) and a premice to 6th (in terms of networking).
They think that future of combat is not only networked, but collaborative with an open architecture (vs F-35 being a closed ecosystem). Anyone is free to think otherwise, no use being kiddish/rude...


The thing about the F-35 being a "closed ecosystem," is negative marketing (AKA FUD), also with regard to networking and systems of systems operations. The upcoming European project efforts have to be justified somehow, e.g. we will supplement with drones and stand off hypersonic missiles and somehow the F-35 cannot do this and the "software is not open for allies" (not).

F-35 is/will be just as or more system-of-systems oriented (also for allied system components) than the proposed European concepts. The F-35 partners are further ahead with drones and stand-off capability The Americans is global leader on drones and stealth, stand-off like JASSM-ER, SPEAR-3, etc.

None of this is new or unique, but the F-35 is also the benchmark here.

Problem for these Europrojects is that they aim to achieve F-35 capability 10-20 years from now at a greater cost... and the F-35 is already here and cheaper.

I think the projects should go ahead, but down claim the result will be better, cheaper. (Like the Eurofighter, everything is beginning to look ancient on that platform: netcentrics, avionics, engine).
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aasm

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 11:24

It will be fully netcentric with... Other F-35. That is exactly what Gal Lanata was claiming when he said beware, the F-35 is becoming NATO standard. There is an inversion in order of standards. Instead of a mandatory NATO standard we're seeing a private (closed) owned standard getting mandatory. And this system was not designed from scratch to allow interconnection of other systems. That's why i call it 6th gen premise.

FCAS will be designed so as to be, from scratch, a collaborative system of systems and all its subcomponents (including weapons) will be also. To me (i might be wrong), the underlying change of paradigm is way deeper than what stealth brought.
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marsavian

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 11:54

And this system was not designed from scratch to allow interconnection of other systems.


F-35 has legacy Link 16 transmit/receive so what you say is not true. If you are saying that MADL should have been approved by NATO first we would still be waiting for the committee to report back now ;). Your definition of 6th gen is bogus, it sure is not going to be about networks because F-35 has already demonstrated that it's got that covered. 6th gen is going to be about a step change not Europe's late entries into the 5th gen world. Will it be about directed energy weapons ? Hypersonic aircraft ? Who knows, however it's not going to be about NGF/Tempest as currently envisaged. This is just marketing BS, the sort Saab indulge in with Gripen.
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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 12:12

F-35 is extremely netcentric with everybody. Sure MADL only works between F-35s and other aircraft that the system installed. Then it has Link 16 which works with pretty much everybody else nowadays and is NATO standard. F-35 can do much more in Link 16 network than any 4th gen fighter as it has by far the best sensor fit and fully networked sensor fusion system. So it can give more and higher quality info into Link 16 network than pretty much anything else. Of course Link 16 has much more limitations than MADL, but it's still the best system everybody else has. I'd say that F-35 was definitely designed from scratch to be as interconnected to everybody else as possible. If everybody else has only ancient systems available, there is nothing that any FCAS could do better with any kind of technology as the problem is in the other systems.
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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 12:24

@aasm, next time someone is sarcastic about "eurocanards" and "Rafale fanboys", remember - it's people like you who caused it.

This thread has gone wildly off-topic and has poured over to the other irrelevant threads as well. Keep this one about Belgium, and move the rest to the "F-35 vs Rafale thread".

@aasm is welcome to start a new one called "F-35 is a 4th gen and Dassault will show the world how 6th gen is done right!" in the "Military Aviation" subforum.

Dixi.
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aasm

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 13:59

marsavian wrote:
And this system was not designed from scratch to allow interconnection of other systems.


F-35 has legacy Link 16 transmit/receive so what you say is not true. If you are saying that MADL should have been approved by NATO first we would still be waiting for the committee to report back now ;). Your definition of 6th gen is bogus, it sure is not going to be about networks because F-35 has already demonstrated that it's got that covered. 6th gen is going to be about a step change not Europe's late entries into the 5th gen world. Will it be about directed energy weapons ? Hypersonic aircraft ? Who knows, however it's not going to be about NGF/Tempest as currently envisaged. This is just marketing BS, the sort Saab indulge in with Gripen.


Energy weapons on a fighter are pure SciFi. you need too big lenses, too much energy, it would have a very short range, wouldn't work in clouds etc. Adaptative optics trials were very disappointing because atmosphere is permanently changing. fighter vs fighter would be impossible (two exceedingly quick moving one to another mobiles), Scaterring, diffraction etc. Did you notice noone speaks anymore about it? And MADL is far from being able to sustain collaborative work due to frequency (range is too short) and directionnality. However, link 16 and madl are a start. Far from the bigger scheme. it is a tweaked up IFDL, not much more (which is already great).*Networking and collaborative are two different things, and it is exactly like some try to infer about stealth. Has to be included since the beginning (skin antennas, cooling, optionnaly manned, whatever). Did you notice the small size of the NGF nose? take look at the movie, you will see the pannelled antennae radar. Already bombs are getting smart and can work as a wolfpack, but once again it is not in a fully integrated and adaptative network. F-35 network isn't so much adaptative (more than F22, certainly but...). F-35 is assembling as many capacities as possible on a platform, 6th gen will distribute capacities and assets so as to generate an effect. Feel to disagree.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 15:29

Belgium picks Lockheed's F-35 over Eurofighter on price

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Belgium said on Thursday it had chosen Lockheed Martin’s (LMT.N) F-35 stealth jets over the Eurofighter Typhoon to replace its aging F-16s, in a widely-anticipated decision, saying the pick came down to price.
...
“We have landed! This government is investing heavily in defense. With the purchase of F-35A fighter planes ... we ensure your safety and that of our military,” Belgian Defence Minister Steven Vandeput said on Twitter during the news conference.

The offer from the Americans was the best in all our seven evaluation criteria,” he later told reporters.
...
Prime Minister Charles Michel’s government said despite a strong desire to support European allies, the F-35 was cheaper for Belgium over the long term, coming in 600 million euros ($684.54 million) under what the government budgeted for.


More at the jump
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-aeros ... KKCN1MZ1S0
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barrelnut

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 16:01

Congrats to Belgians, looking forward to us Finns to make the same decision.
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duplex

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 16:12

http://www.brusselstimes.com/belgium/12 ... or-to-f-16

Based in Europe I closely watch the news media ..The French are very disappointed and determined to fight for the Rafale. Defence minister Mrs Parly has been bad-mouthing the F-35 since months .
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 16:44

duplex wrote:http://www.brusselstimes.com/belgium/12933/belgium-opts-for-american-f-35-as-successor-to-f-16

Based in Europe I closely watch the news media ..The French are very disappointed and determined to fight for the Rafale. Defence minister Mrs Parly has been bad-mouthing the F-35 since months .


If they felt that the Rafale was the better choice then they should have competed fairly instead of trying to win via backroom deals. Has France not learned anything from all the bad press about bribes?
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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 16:54

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hythelday

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 16:55

SpudmanWP wrote:If they felt that the Rafale was the better choice then they should have competed fairly instead of trying to win via backroom deals. Has France not learned anything from all the bad press about bribes?


Easy explanation - declare that the competition is rigged. Le Monde is the only french newspaper that I know, their report is quite brief:

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... _3214.html

They do not fail to mention that defence minister is "flemish nationalist" Vandeput, their previous articles go on about how good a French proposition would have been for industrial participation and force cooperation... had it not been derailedby flemish nationalists!

As far as I know he is not going to stay in that office for much longer, so while F-35 officially won, major shake-up of the government might still entail cancellation or postponement of plans. I guess we'll have to wait until 2019 election dust settles until F-35's purchase is truly secure. With introduction in 2023, there is still room for the next government to pull a Trudeau.
Last edited by hythelday on 25 Oct 2018, 17:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Tiger05

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 17:01

Yep, its confirmed now. Belgium has officially selected the F-35 today. Glad that my country made the right choice and that our air force will get the most advanced fighter on the market (while being well under budget on top of that!). There were many calls over here to favor an European "solution" since we are a core EU country and i was a bit worried that we might end up with the Eurofighter or Rafale for strictly political reasons, regardless of performances or price, but fortunately common sense prevailed. I have nothing against the EF and Rafale, they are fine planes for today but they arent the best fit for the next 40 years. Especially when you see that their replacements are already on the drawing board... If the Dassault FCAS and BAE Tempest projects had been launched 10-15 years earlier, they could have been a potentially attractive alternative to the F-35 but those projects just started and wont become a reality before the 2030s at the very least. Too little, too late.

On a separate note, the government also confirmed today the acquisition of General Atomics MQ-9 Reaper UAVs (potentially armed) so all in all, this a great day for the BAF. :)
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Tiger05

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 17:15

duplex wrote:http://www.brusselstimes.com/belgium/12933/belgium-opts-for-american-f-35-as-successor-to-f-16

Based in Europe I closely watch the news media ..The French are very disappointed and determined to fight for the Rafale. Defence minister Mrs Parly has been bad-mouthing the F-35 since months .


You should see the vitriol on some French defense & aviation forums i browsed. Geez. They are NOT taking this decision well. One French newspaper opinion piece even accused Belgium of "betraying Europe". Yeah... how dare we pick the plane best suited to our needs, right? :roll:
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