Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

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steve2267

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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 14:23

It is hard for me to imagine how this "6th generation" Franco-German wunderplane will be successful. Leaping an entire generation of technology with little to no experience with said jumped generation is a recipe for disaster, IMHO.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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ricnunes

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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 16:10

aasm wrote:However Hornetfinn, SAAB advertized about "active stealth" concepts for their EW suite, aswell as french CEMAA did talk about active stealth also early this year. I'm perfectl aware that this type of jamming would be much easier to perfrom with a stealthy platform (where do "stealth" start in terms of angle and dB), but not to be discounted. People from SAAB, DAssault and Boeing aren't stupid and they wouldn't compete (and spend a lot of money) i they did not think their own solutions did not have their own advantages.


It's not a matter of (SAAB, Dassault and Boeing) being stupid or not. That's basically one of the very few things that they can do in order to stay relevant in any competition against LM/F-35 since they aren't going to (be able to) develop any true 5th gen fighter aircraft anytime soon (if ever).

Remember when for example you claimed that what Lockheed Martin often says (about the virtues of the F-35) is "PR"? Now, that's precisely what SAAB is doing regarding "active stealth", that's pure and simple PR in order to try to keep itself relevant.
"Active stealth" is more a myth than an actual thing but this was actually discussed here (almost to "death").

Like you said that sort of Jamming (and definitely not "Active stealth") will be far more relevant in the F-35 in great part because it can get much closer to the radar source and this again due to stealth. A Gripen NG (or a Rafale, or a SH, or a etc...) won't have much of a chance to get close enough to the radar source in order to achieve an effective jamming but then again and if I'm not mistaken this was also discussed to the death here at F-16.net
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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ricnunes

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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 16:13

steve2267 wrote:It is hard for me to imagine how this "6th generation" Franco-German wunderplane will be successful. Leaping an entire generation of technology with little to no experience with said jumped generation is a recipe for disaster, IMHO.


Absolutely!
So the French and Germans can't even develop something similar to the F-35 (or F-22) or resuming a 5th gen fighter aircraft and suddenly they will be able to develop a much better/advanced aircraft - a 6th gen fighter aircraft. That's a big LOL :mrgreen:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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armedupdate

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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 17:38

From what I know what seperates a 6th Generation fighter from a 5th Generation Fighter is:
-Directed energy weapons
-Coordination/Control of UAVs
-More enhanced networking
-More advanced EW

The F-35 in the future will likely be classified as a 6th Generation Fighter. It will definetly be in a different era than the F-35 now. It will be the Lo fighter to the PCA.
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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 18:04

First of all i do not remember talking about LM and µPR

About active stealth, i'm citing

"Find the right balance between active and passive furtivity" at 10'50. Plain and simle, from the horse mouth HEad of french Air Force, Gal P. Lavigne. Nothing to do with PR. Finally, they were advanced enough to build a stealthy autonomous UCLASS (nEUROn)



Any comment?
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XanderCrews

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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 22:14

aasm wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
steve2267 wrote:It is hard for me to imagine how this "6th generation" Franco-German wunderplane will be successful. Leaping an entire generation of technology with little to no experience with said jumped generation is a recipe for disaster, IMHO.


Absolutely!
So the French and Germans can't even develop something similar to the F-35 (or F-22) or resuming a 5th gen fighter aircraft and suddenly they will be able to develop a much better/advanced aircraft - a 6th gen fighter aircraft. That's a big LOL :mrgreen:


Trololol... omgz cornered u pwned me! behave again this is not a schoolyard is it?



Talk is cheap. Plenty of projects start out with lofty ambitions (and include lofty ambitions of "easy!" and "simple!") And I watch them collapse especially with countries, that dont have the money or the peoples patience when things invariably go wrong.


The difference between an advanced UCAV and a Combat capable sixth gen is night and day. do grow up yourself. I'm not going to start popping the champagne because they developed NEURON

The longest distance between two points is "program concept" and "in service."
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ricnunes

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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 22:30

aasm wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
steve2267 wrote:It is hard for me to imagine how this "6th generation" Franco-German wunderplane will be successful. Leaping an entire generation of technology with little to no experience with said jumped generation is a recipe for disaster, IMHO.


Absolutely!
So the French and Germans can't even develop something similar to the F-35 (or F-22) or resuming a 5th gen fighter aircraft and suddenly they will be able to develop a much better/advanced aircraft - a 6th gen fighter aircraft. That's a big LOL :mrgreen:


Trololol... omgz cornered u pwned me! behave again this is not a schoolyard is it?


First the only one trolling here is you.
Secondly, I was replying to steve2267 not to yourself and as such by agreeing with his post.
Third, I justified my skepticism about that pseudo 6th gen French/German "project" (it can hardly even be called a project in this current stage) while you justified/argued with... nothing!
So I echo XanderCrews's words:
- Grow up yourself!
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 22:32

Nothing much heard about the nEUROtic from about Nov 2014 according to the WickedPedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_nEUROn
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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ricnunes

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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 22:36

aasm wrote:First of all i do not remember talking about LM and µPR

About active stealth, i'm citing

"Find the right balance between active and passive furtivity" at 10'50. Plain and simle, from the horse mouth HEad of french Air Force, Gal P. Lavigne. Nothing to do with PR. Finally, they were advanced enough to build a stealthy autonomous UCLASS (nEUROn)

[YouTube]https://youtu.be/WhzBLqXKSCk
[/YouTube]



Any comment?


How about:
- More PR!

Again there's no such thing as Active Stealth. There's Jamming (and there are different jamming techniques). Calling some Jamming techniques "Active Stealth" is PR, pure and simple! Moreover nEUROn's LO (Low Observability) comes from its airframe design (flying wing with other in-built LO features such as air intakes and perhaps even RAM materials).
Last edited by ricnunes on 23 Oct 2018, 22:45, edited 2 times in total.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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ricnunes

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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 22:42

XanderCrews wrote:The difference between an advanced UCAV and a Combat capable sixth gen is night and day. do grow up yourself. I'm not going to start popping the champagne because they developed NEURON


spazsinbad wrote:Nothing much heard about the nEUROtic from about Nov 2014 according to the WickedPedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_nEUROn


Precisely!
And by the way, how many nEUROns were built?? Is it in active service??

Well, the answer seems to be ONE (1) and NO respectively. So basing the probabilities of success of a future 6th gen wannabe project/fighter aircraft on nEUROn's "success" doesn't seem like a good start. But who am I to say this?? :roll:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post24 Oct 2018, 01:40

steve2267 wrote:It is hard for me to imagine how this "6th generation" Franco-German wunderplane will be successful. Leaping an entire generation of technology with little to no experience with said jumped generation is a recipe for disaster, IMHO.


Europe made a big mistake when they developed the 4.5 Generation Rafale and Typhoon. Instead of a 5th Generation Fighter like the F-22 and F-35....So, it better take a leap and not develop a 5.5 Generation Fighter or make the same mistake it made with the aforementioned. Thereby giving much of the fighter market to their competitors. (i.e. Lockheed Martin)
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Unread post24 Oct 2018, 01:45

'Corsair1963' would you please kindly stop entering ITALIC text in your recent posts please - makes reading more difficult.
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weasel1962

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Unread post24 Oct 2018, 01:57

How would 100,000 defence jobs in Europe be a "failure"?
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Unread post24 Oct 2018, 04:00

Corsair1963 wrote:
steve2267 wrote:It is hard for me to imagine how this "6th generation" Franco-German wunderplane will be successful. Leaping an entire generation of technology with little to no experience with said jumped generation is a recipe for disaster, IMHO.


Europe made a big mistake when they developed the 4.5 Generation Rafale and Typhoon. Instead of a 5th Generation Fighter like the F-22 and F-35....So, it better take a leap and not develop a 5.5 Generation Fighter or make the same mistake it made with the aforementioned. Thereby giving much of the fighter market to their competitors. (i.e. Lockheed Martin)


Stealth wasn't public knowledge when the 4.5 Generation aircraft were proposed, and with the end of the Cold War and decreased defence budgets, their development took a good 10 if not 15 years longer than originally thought. Stealth was added as an afterthought, but none of the concepts of 5th Gen were in there. It was the right choice at the time to keep European defence companies relevant, but the mismanagement on the Typhoon was monumental, leading to never ending delays and initial aircraft that could only do Air Superiority.

Can't blame the Belgians on buying the F-35 now that we know that Rafale and Typhoon are to be phased out in 20ish years (Franco-German FCAS agreement). The comment sections of various Belgian newspapers can barely hold in the rage at buying stuff from Trump and/or not buying European when they have the European capital, it's quite amusing. Plenty of people quoting POGO, uttering nonsense like the plane is always grounded, can't do anything it's advertised as doing, isn't omnirole, etc. Funny how that type of disinformation shows up in other languages... The only Belgian mistake is to not have gotten into the program earlier, now they won't get much in the way of industrial share, but the commentards are blind to that. They seem very worried that only one of the two fighter bases will be kept thouhg, being the one in Flanders not Wallonia. With just 37 aircraft I guess that is a risk.
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Unread post24 Oct 2018, 04:21

steve2267 wrote:It is hard for me to imagine how this "6th generation" Franco-German wunderplane will be successful.


BS of course. For a long time Typhoon was referred to as a '5th gen'. In early 90s Typhoon was amped-up as the next '5th generation' super jet due to its spooky and mysterious 'integration'. Which ended up being a reduced RCS 4th-gen design with disappointing weapon options and mirrored by legacy developments from SH, etc., and quickly surpassed by dedicated 'integration' in actual 5th-gens.

If I was a central-Euro I'd buy F-35s and focus continental effort on designing a deeper-penetrating VLO attack jet to complement F-35s in the 2030s and 40s, and try to make that their first 'best-of-breed' design (in a very long time) then apply those lessons to an actual '6th-gen' design (but please Europe, just stop talking pure bullcrap about building '6th-gens' now).
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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