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Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 06:57
by element1loop
marsavian wrote:Just need Finland to pick up a few and the Baltic's covered in between all the Euro-Canards ;).


Yeah, like 80 or so.

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 08:43
by geforcerfx
So if Belgium buys F-35A's should we remove the gun before shipping them over.... :devil:
If turns out true this keeps all the original F-16 operators in Europe moving onto the F-16's successor.

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 14:11
by hythelday
aasm wrote:
element1loop wrote:
marsavian wrote:Just need Finland to pick up a few and the Baltic's covered in between all the Euro-Canards ;).


Yeah, like 80 or so.


Finland will be harder to win. For several reasons, including russian big bear. F-35 main capabilities are advertised as offensive.


Main advertised capabilities of F-35 are 1) survivable against "Russian big bear" wunderwaffe IADS 2) better than 4th gens offered to them right now. Tactical offensive operations are not only possible, but vital in case of Finnish strategic defensive campaign, what do you think they plan to blow up with JASSMs and JSOWs should the war start today? Finnish military knows this and is not afraid of that - they didn't purchase strike length Mk41 VLS for their new vessels for nothing.

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 14:53
by hkultala
element1loop wrote:
marsavian wrote:Just need Finland to pick up a few and the Baltic's covered in between all the Euro-Canards ;).


Yeah, like 80 or so.


Finland plans to buy 63 new fighter planes. But if F-35 is chosen, the number might get downscaled a slightly to keep costs down.

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 15:39
by ricnunes
aasm wrote:Finland will be harder to win. For several reasons, including russian big bear. F-35 main capabilities are advertised as offensive.


And guess what? So is the F/A-18 which Finland operates. Oh and so is Rafale, BTW.
Or resuming all these aircraft: F-35, F/A-18, Rafale, etc... are Strike Fighters, that's what they are actually "advertised as".

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 15:43
by ricnunes
hkultala wrote:Finland plans to buy 63 new fighter planes. But if F-35 is chosen, the number might get downscaled a slightly to keep costs down.


Honestly I'm failing to follow your logic/rethoric here. So you're saying that if Finland orders any other aircraft outside the F-35 than it will buy 63 of those aircraft but if it decides to buy the F-35 it will buy less than 63, is that it?

I don't know if you realized but the acquisition and operational costs of the F-35 are on par (if not cheaper) than its competitors so again I'm a bit puzzled with your logic...

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 15:52
by hkultala
ricnunes wrote:
hkultala wrote:Finland plans to buy 63 new fighter planes. But if F-35 is chosen, the number might get downscaled a slightly to keep costs down.


Honestly I'm failing to follow your logic/rethoric here. So you're saying that if Finland orders any other aircraft outside the F-35 than it will buy 63 of those aircraft but if it decides to buy the F-35 it will buy less than 63, is that it?


Not ANY. But it Finland buys Gripen NG, finland probably buys more planes than if Finland buys F-35A's.

Potential number of EF Typhoons might be the sam as potential number of F-35's.

I don't know if you realized but the acquisition and operational costs of the F-35 are on par (if not cheaper) than its competitors so again I'm a bit puzzled with your logic...


The main competitor is Gripen NG. It is both cheaper to acquire AND to operate than F-35.

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 16:26
by ricnunes
hkultala wrote:Not ANY. But it Finland buys Gripen NG, finland probably buys more planes than if Finland buys F-35A's.


That's not how things work. Finland has a requirement for an X number of fighter aircraft, this case 63 you say but according to this:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-finl ... SKBN1HY27V
It is 64.

But independently of being 63 or 64 the way that competitions such as this Finnish one is done is that independently of which fighter aircraft wins, Finland will buy 64 aircraft. If it buys the F-35 it will buy 64 of them, if the Gripen wins than it will also buy 64 of them. You see, fighter aircraft competitions are almost never or rarely something like: I purchased the cheaper so I take the chance to buy more because I still have "money left in my pocket" (or less if its a more expensive option). Afterall this is a fighter aircraft purchase and not something like purchasing beans...
64 aircraft is what the Finland thinks and identified as the quantity of fighter aircraft that it must buy for its need (again independently of which model/aircraft ends up being selected).


hkultala wrote:The main competitor is Gripen NG. It is both cheaper to acquire AND to operate than F-35.


Oh, I see. It seems that you're one of those Gripen fanboys (forgive me if I'm wrong). It's a been a while since I've seen one lurking around here.
Anyway, care to share your sources??
Because everything that I read so far about the Gripen NG (or more precisely Gripen E/F) is that it could be everything except being cheap! Moreover, the aircraft is still in development with apparently only two prototypes built so far but here I digress.

Anyway, if you look at the Brazilian contract you can see that Brazil is buying the Gripen E/F at a cost of around $130 Million USD per unit! Yes, this cost may or could eventually include a "few extras" but from what I read, they're not many. So it seems that there's a very good chance that the Gripen NG may actually be more expensive in terms of acquisition (and quite so) compared to the F-35, namely compared to the F-35A.
Here:
https://www.defensenews.com/home/2015/1 ... n-ng-deal/
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... al-416586/

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 16:55
by citanon
So how many total F35s for Europe besides Turkey?

From Wikipedia it seems to be : 138 (UK) + 131 (IT) + 85 (NL) + 27 (DK) + 52 (NW) + 34 (BE) = 467 so far.

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 18:26
by scudbuster

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 18:37
by hythelday
citanon wrote:So how many total F35s for Europe besides Turkey?

From Wikipedia it seems to be : 138 (UK) + 131 (IT) + 85 (NL) + 27 (DK) + 52 (NW) + 34 (BE) = 467 so far.


85 for the Netherlands? That is certainly not true. Although there have been news recently that Dutch MoD was looking to increase current commitment, which as of now should be 37.

As for the Belgians, hardly a surprise. Much more interesting will be to see rivals' reaction.

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 19:30
by krorvik
citanon wrote:52 (NW)


No Way? Hehe. We like "NO" 8)

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 20:51
by kimjongnumbaun
aasm wrote:
Finland will be harder to win. For several reasons, including russian big bear. F-35 main capabilities are advertised as offensive.


What are you even talking about? The F-35's advertised abilities are stealth and situational awareness. Those are not abilities used exclusively for "offense".

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 21:55
by viper12
krorvik wrote:
citanon wrote:52 (NW)


No Way? Hehe. We like "NO" 8)


"NO" like "NEJ" ? :twisted:

Re: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2018, 22:01
by lamoey
viper12 wrote:
krorvik wrote:
citanon wrote:52 (NW)


No Way? Hehe. We like "NO" 8)


"NO" like "NEJ" ? :twisted:


Eng(No) = NO(Nei)

NOrge or NOrway