Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

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gideonic

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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 15:41

It's getting a bit off-topic, but regarding the subsidies I find it quite amusing that they are often regarded as "free money out of the blue". There is a reason why they were put in place and it's not just because France and Germany are feeling helpful. The reason for them is that unrestricted movement of people (and capital) all but guarantees brain-drain and workforce drain into the richer EU countries. A lot more people from the poorer countries are working in in the richer ones, than would be, without the Shengen Zone in place. I'm not even talking about the cheap labor but the more qualified ones. And the subsidies are in place to offset that.

Depending how you calculate it, the more people emigrating, the extra tax-returns of the emigrates, and a larger market to sell to (free market rules) in the long run more than makes up for the subsidies.

For instance, (according to Theresa Bubbear the British ambassador to Estonia) there are between 8000-15000 estonians living in the UK (that might not seem much, but it's about 1% of the entire population of 1.3M). What's the reason for those relatively high error bounds? Because none of them have applied for any social benefits. The same is true for many of the Eastern European countries.

Looking at this it's maybe not so surprising that of the people supporting, Brexit most are scared of Eastern-Europeans (Polish in particular) taking their jobs, rather than any immigrants from Middle-East or Africa.
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loke

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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 16:40

THis is really off-topic, but frankly small countries can and do benefit from EU not just France and Germany....

Norway is 80% member (which means: we pay the "membership fee", we have to accept almost all regulations from Brussels) but without one of the main benefits, which is some political influence and this is massively supported by all experts in Norway simply because all the benefits by far outweigh the negatives.

For those complaining about EU; have you seriously considered the alternatives? Probably not; and if you try, you probably lack the imagination and understanding to figure out what things would be like, without the EU...

Do you really think Portugal would be able to maintain a large fishing fleet and metallurgy industry outside of EU???

There is a reason why almost all experts conclude that even a major country like the UK would be better off inside the EU than outside... Even more important for smaller countries to remain within the EU, when considering the alternatives!

The US is not part of the EU, it is a super power, and still several major US industries have been dismantled over the last few decades. If you really think small countries like Portugal somehow would manage themselves better than the US by remaining outside of the EU, then I am sorry but it is you who are delusional!
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gideonic

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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 17:07

loke wrote:Do you really think Portugal would be able to maintain a large fishing fleet and metallurgy industry outside of EU???

There is a reason why almost all experts conclude that even a major country like the UK would be better off inside the EU than outside... Even more important for smaller countries to remain within the EU, when considering the alternatives!

I don't think anybody here debating the that EU is good overall. If anything, it indeed helps the smaller nations more than the bigger ones (despite all the stupid nationalist attitudes lately). What was debated, was the meme that the EU funding is some kind of free money given from the kindness of heart, and that Portugal should need to be super-grateful for that. There is a reason why those subsidies were put in place. And the actual benefits absolutely outweigh the costs for the richer countries.
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monkeypilot

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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 17:22

nutshell wrote:Listen, monkey, i won't attack you or hold you responsible for the EU politics, it is what it is: 2 countries reaping most of the benefits and other 26 licking their wounds.

My country would be irresponsible if suddenly decides to "support" the european domestic industry, more so in light of the german backstabbing in 2011 and 2012, french hostility in naval industry, the "idgaf" attitude we got times and times again.

There's not a single field where Italy didnt get shafted by the EU; supporting dassault or airbus would be almost comical.

Damn we committed so much in to the JSF, there are literally 0 reason to not stick with the F35.

Last but not least: i will be always proud of my country's military as long as we prioritize quality over anything else and the JSF delivers so much,much, much quality.


Your opinion about EU is highly respectable. And the opinion of many europeans feeling their own county was reaped by others. But guess whho are/were (soon) the three net biggest contributors (aka those who give more money than they receive)? Uk, De and Fr.

If you carefully read my first long post, i did not show any disdain or anything to anywhom. And i also insisted that theopinion i gave was not necessarily mine, but should be taken in account.

Anyway, as you say, it is off topic. No intent from me to derail .
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monkeypilot

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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 17:23

gideonic wrote:
loke wrote:Do you really think Portugal would be able to maintain a large fishing fleet and metallurgy industry outside of EU???

There is a reason why almost all experts conclude that even a major country like the UK would be better off inside the EU than outside... Even more important for smaller countries to remain within the EU, when considering the alternatives!


I don't think anybody here debating the that EU is good overall. If anything, it indeed helps the smaller nations more than the bigger ones (despite all the stupid nationalist attitudes lately). What was debated, was the meme that the EU funding is some kind of free money given from the kindness of heart, and that Portugal should need to be super-grateful for that. There is a reason why those subsidies were put in place. And the actual benefits absolutely outweigh the costs for the richer countries.


Agree with that, please take into account what was written above.
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white_lightning35

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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 17:25

As an add-on, freedom of movement certainly helps many people throughout the EU, but do you think the Baltics and eastern Europe will be saying that in 20 years?

https://www.ft.com/content/70813826-0c6 ... 059ae1b5e3

Those countries are having the largest population loss in the world recently. Many of their citizens are moving away and to western Europe for economic reasons. Those countries might be receiving funds now, but freedom of movement will greatly hurt their future unless things change.
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ricnunes

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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 17:51

loke wrote:For those complaining about EU; have you seriously considered the alternatives? Probably not; and if you try, you probably lack the imagination and understanding to figure out what things would be like, without the EU...


Before you're so eagerly willing to "jump on me" - Go and re-read my post and above all, the post before mine posted by monkeypilot!

My point was very simple and very straightfoward:
- monkeypilot accused Portugal of running on subsidies only.
- I proved him that subsidies that Portugal received were very far from being a "free gift" and that France itself also received "alot of benefits" such as being allowed to run on budget deficits much longer than any other EU country.
All of this follows what gideonic said which was spot on - everyone in the EU benefited!

But feel free to keep twisting my words if that makes you happy :roll:

loke wrote:Do you really think Portugal would be able to maintain a large fishing fleet and metallurgy industry outside of EU???


Maintaining a metallurgy industry, I don't know.
Maintaining a large fishing fleet, HELL YES! Only someone that doesn't have a clue what Portugal is, could claim otherwise! I could continue explaining you why but then again I would need more lines of text for something which is already off-topic.


loke wrote:If you really think small countries like Portugal somehow would manage themselves better than the US by remaining outside of the EU, then I am sorry but it is you who are delusional!


Again I never said that and here you are again twisting my own words.
Portugal benefited from the EU as all other countries within the EU (including France) also benefited. But now EU is turning into something different - something which is ruled by a French-German Axis (and yes, this is acknowledged by the same experts that you mentioned). And so, if things continue this trend I can't see a future or a bright future for the EU.

Well, I also said what I wanted about the subject. I won't continue anymore since this is already becoming off-topic (which, I didn't start).
Last edited by ricnunes on 05 Mar 2018, 17:57, edited 1 time in total.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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botsing

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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 18:09

Just a quick reminder to all involved here:
Forum Guidelines for F-16.net: Avoid politics and religion.

P.S. this thread is about "Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s"
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
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white_lightning35

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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 18:45

We're in the Program and Politics section. And this discussion is relevant in a sense, seeing as how these talking points are dealing with the dynamics of Belgium's political institutions, which could affect the outcome of the decision.
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monkeypilot

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Unread post06 Mar 2018, 12:42

white_lightning35 wrote:We're in the Program and Politics section. And this discussion is relevant in a sense, seeing as how these talking points are dealing with the dynamics of Belgium's political institutions, which could affect the outcome of the decision.

*Yep, but we (including myself) should keep civil and never forget everyone do not think the same way... In the end that is why fora are interesting places.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post07 Mar 2018, 14:31

loke wrote:THis is really off-topic, but frankly small countries can and do benefit from EU not just France and Germany....

Norway is 80% member (which means: we pay the "membership fee", we have to accept almost all regulations from Brussels) but without one of the main benefits, which is some political influence and this is massively supported by all experts in Norway simply because all the benefits by far outweigh the negatives.

For those complaining about EU; have you seriously considered the alternatives? Probably not; and if you try, you probably lack the imagination and understanding to figure out what things would be like, without the EU...



OMG! How could Europe even exist without the EU!? I mean its been in place for hundreds of years!! Can anyone even imagine a pre November 1993 europe? My god I can't!!

Can anyone even imagine or understand such a thing!? :doh: IS this why Saab is building the Gripen? to be in solidarity with Europe? Why does Sweden help itself and not Airbus and the EU by simply buying Typhoons?


If you really think small countries like Portugal somehow would manage themselves better than the US by remaining outside of the EU, then I am sorry but it is you who are delusional!


Clearly portugal doesn't know whats best for portugal. Managing themselves?! How delusional!! They need to be managed by you know. Germans. Just something "Masterful" about those people. I don't know how they do it. But they know better than the populations they take power from.
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vilters

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Unread post07 Mar 2018, 15:11

Who was building aircraft during WW2? => Germany and the UK.

Where is Germany's aircraft industry now? => As a "stand alone industry"? => Vaporized.

The UK had some "Golden years" in the early Jet ages. They had the tech and continued building on it.
But . . . Basically they sold the tech to pay for the WW2 rebuild cost and only Rolls continued for military and civil applications.
Airframe companies almost all went belly up, or became "subcontractors" for the "big boys".

One or 2 are hanging hopelessly on a Tiffy/Tornado string that becomes weaker and weaker by the day.

France came along, (they had nothing to begin with, and nothing to loose either) but started building airframes AND engines.
Sidenote : Damm => Always wondered what a Mirage 2000 could have been with a P&W or GE engine. That would have been a "beast".


The "Big Boss" took over with unlimited money and tech.

Everybody, including Germany, the UK, France, and all other "minor" players bought from the "Big Boss".

Where are we today? => Where is Europe today? => Completely divided.

Tiffy on one side, Rafale on the other side and their "too expensive cheap" child Griphen in the middle.

Production runs in the "few" hundreds if lucky and with enough state and European sponsorship and at a unit cost to cry for. Reliability and maintainability closer to "wishful thinking" then reality.

Can Germany, France, Italy, Sweden work together? Never, and never, and never, not in the close nor far future.
Each country tries to get the largest piece of the cake and there are ALWAYS elections somewhere to spoil dinner.

Local elections, and local Industry protection ALWAYS comes in the way of "lets work together and move forward."

What did we do?
We build the Tornado. About EVERYBODY's nightmare. Wrong airplane in the wrong era for the wrong purpose, and obsolete at first flight.
=> WHAW, if you have to ask ATC to let the Migs fly lower and slower so that you can escort therm?

We build Tiffy and Rafale because the countries and companies involved could not agree on "what to build", who was going to build, and who was going to pay. Our political/industry is too divided to agree on anything from wing shape through engines over avionix.

Sweden tries to stay neutral and always comes up with the "too expensive cheap solution" nobody wants.

Europe?
A very expensive institute, sponsored by elections to get nothing done.
50 years in some lines.
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monkeypilot

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Unread post08 Mar 2018, 20:26

Europe?
A very expensive institute, sponsored by elections to get nothing done.
50 years in some lines.


Our duty as citizens to change that no?
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nutshell

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Unread post19 Mar 2018, 02:30

Again with the Tornado nonsense?

It has been a successful ground striker. Never been cutting edge, nor was EVER designed to be ahead of the curve.

It was a solid, reliable plane (testified by the very low casualties the bird ever caused) that could eventually perform some intercepting role if you had nothing better to cover the role. It was a hella fast plane back in that era.

Stop doing drugs, told you already.
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monkeypilot

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Unread post20 Mar 2018, 20:54

Many thins happened in Belium today. Apparently a report from LM saying the F-16 could last 6 years more (unknown cost, 1 billiion cited) had been hidden to the minister Vandeput and leaked in press. A collaborator of Vandeput was sacked some time ago for undue contacts with LM (which would not be related to the call for tender). M bet goes for cancellation until new governement is lected in around 18 months.
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