Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

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monkeypilot

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Unread post02 Mar 2018, 16:13

rheonomic wrote:
monkeypilot wrote:And both become totally dependant on US and kill european fihter aircraft industry.? No thanks.


I mean, it's basically a jobs program for European engineers at this point...


For some countries here (specially France), Independance is a must. (Way above "jobs") It is not a problem of buying american stuff (see AWACS, steam catapults, reapers), the problem is to retain an industrial basis for these capabilities. If every european countries jump into F-35, Europe will not anymore be able to design one from scratch and HAVE to buy american. It isn't anymore friendship or ally, it is vassality. Nothing to do with US being friends or (some dumbs really think so) ennemies.

This politic was decided in France after the Suez crisis.

Many also think that to be a good ally, Europe must be a powerful ally, and the only way to become so is a type of "protectionism" in military affairs so as to stregthen mil economy above the continent.
In fine, some (at NATO), raised up what they believ to be a problem. Until now, apart rom the F-22, USA built NATO compliant aircrafts.Conversely, NATO is presently becoming F-35 compliant. See the reversion of the norma?

Complicated geopolitical stuff. Presently Britain is leaving and France (another major power inside Europe) is on the edge of the sword vis à vis Europe, and present election probaly showed a tendency to fall towards europhiles camp (amongstwhich i am). vs euroskeptics. or some, the choice of F-35 bu Belgium or Germany could affect this move. (not all of course)
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XanderCrews

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Unread post02 Mar 2018, 16:41

monkeypilot wrote:Sorry, but a plane where even level I partner UK do not have codes? It is called total dependency. Be US good or bad.


Ummm no. And you clearly don't know the whole story behind that. Most manufacturers choose to protect certain aspects of their design that that are proprietary and large company investments. The only reason the whole thing even got brought up was because Eurofighter was trying to start a fight and drive a wedge

This is not new nor unique. It was a move for show, that only people bought into who didn't understand the situation.
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icemaverick

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Unread post02 Mar 2018, 16:47

It’s all well and good to talk about European industry but the bottom line is that most European countries are unable or unwilling to spend the resources necessary to develop a highly capable defense infrastructure on their own. Most aren’t even spending 2% of their GDP on defense.

Let’s be real here: Europe won’t be ponying up hundreds of billions of dollars to develop an aircraft and logistical chain to compete with the F-35. Europe won’t commit trillions to military procurement. Even if they do eventually develop a comparable 5th gen fighter it will be right around the time the US (and probably China) will be rolling out a 6th gen.

Most of Europe’s best bet is to buy the F-35. Not only is it the most capable fighter available, it also offers many economic benefits to partner countries and has the best logistics and training infrastructure in place.
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rheonomic

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Unread post03 Mar 2018, 00:21

monkeypilot wrote:For some countries here (specially France), Independance is a must. (Way above "jobs") It is not a problem of buying american stuff (see AWACS, steam catapults, reapers), the problem is to retain an industrial basis for these capabilities.


France is basically the only European country that can produce decent tactical aircraft independently.

The problem with the multinational efforts is that ultimately each country has different requirements and may reach points where they are unwilling to compromise. There's also arguments over who gets to lead, workshare, etc. The JSF program avoids this in many ways since (for the most part) what the US says goes.

monkeypilot wrote:Many also think that to be a good ally, Europe must be a powerful ally, and the only way to become so is a type of "protectionism" in military affairs so as to stregthen mil economy above the continent.


How politically sustainable is this? From the prospective of somebody on the other side of the Atlantic, it seems like the majority of European countries (or at least the broader populations) are unwilling to appropriately fund their defense. It might make sense to pool resources and operate a joint force to avoid duplication of effort etc, but that brings up difficult issues of sovereignty. I wouldn't want to put control of military forces under EU bureaucrats given the way the EU battlegroups turned out.

monkeypilot wrote:the choice of F-35 bu Belgium or Germany could affect this move. (not all of course)


The problem for the small countries like Belgium is that they can't afford to buy a decent number of aircraft. Similar to the EPAF program, it makes sense for the smaller countries to operate a common fighter, perhaps jointly. That means F-35. (Sure, they could go Rafale and work with France, but we're building a hell of a lot more F-35s than Dassault is Rafales, and there's something to be said for economies of scale alone. Not to mention the obvious technical benefits and longer relevancy.)

I don't think domestic German politics will allow for Luftwaffe F-35s.
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Unread post03 Mar 2018, 04:17

rheonomic wrote:I don't think domestic German politics will allow for Luftwaffe F-35s.


Which is just nuts.

Bring back Helmut Kohl.
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Unread post03 Mar 2018, 20:17

The problem for the small countries like Belgium is that they can't afford to buy a decent number of aircraft. Similar to the EPAF program, it makes sense for the smaller countries to operate a common fighter, perhaps jointly. That means F-35. (Sure, they could go Rafale and work with France, but we're building a hell of a lot more F-35s than Dassault is Rafales, and there's something to be said for economies of scale alone. Not to mention the obvious technical benefits and longer relevancy.)


And i understand this point of view. Small europeans countries, specally one like Belgium that retained quite a lot of power internationaly considering its size are also concerned by a "vassalization" by larger countries within Europe...
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XanderCrews

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Unread post03 Mar 2018, 21:31

monkeypilot wrote:
If you think that this is new or unique I question your experience and credentials. It was a move for show, that only suckers bought into who didn't understand the situation.


You are free to challenge anything i did't claim aren't you?


Re read it. The laughter is because your claim is absurd. The only reason you have "independence at all" is because the Americans, brits, and Canadians liberated you. Everyone's a tough guy after the fight though

As for the source code, again if you are confusing source code availability with independence I have a bridge in Europe to sell you. The only reason it ever comes up at all was a political move. The US never gives source codes.
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ricnunes

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Unread post03 Mar 2018, 22:48

monkeypilot wrote:If every european countries jump into F-35, Europe will not anymore be able to design one from scratch and HAVE to buy american.


Please don't confuse France or even the "France-Germany Axis" as being Europe or most of the Europe or don't pretend France-Germany to be the "whole Europe"!
I live in an EU country (Portugal) and why should my EU country or other EU countries such as Belgium jump into a French fighter aircraft just to save France's fighter aircraft industry?? Or are you even trying to convince anyone if other EU countries purchases a French fighter aircraft (like the Rafale or that proposed Franco-German "5th" gen fighter aircraft) that it would receive the complete capability to build fighter aircraft in-country from France?? LoL if you do :doh:

In the end why should I trust France or Germany more than the USA, specially when it comes to military and/or fighter aircraft??
It doesn't matter if other EU countries such as Belgium (or Portugal) buy from France-Germany or USA they won't have a fighter aircraft industry so it's better for the "non-French/German Europe" to purchase the BEST and CHEAPEST fighter aircraft while still receiving a very good offset package and that option is the F-35 (and only the F-35)!


XanderCrews wrote:Re read it. The laughter is because your claim is absurd. The only reason you have "independence at all" is because the Americans, brits, and Canadians liberated you. Everyone's a tough guy after the fight though

As for the source code, again if you are confusing source code availability with independence I have a bridge in Europe to sell you. The only reason it ever comes up at all was a political move. The US never gives source codes.


You're absolutely right, XanderCrews!
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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ricnunes

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Unread post04 Mar 2018, 20:05

monkeypilot wrote:
I live in an EU country (Portugal) and why should my EU country or other EU countries such as Belgium jump into a French fighter aircraft just to save France's fighter aircraft industry?? Or are you even trying to convince anyone if other EU countries purchases a French fighter aircraft (like the Rafale or that proposed Franco-German "5th" gen fighter aircraft) that it would receive the complete capability to build fighter aircraft in-country from France?? LoL if you do :doh:


idem.

Next?


I rest my case!


By the way, I reach my 1000th post - HURRAY :D
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 03:14

asadkhan003 wrote:Belgium Air force is planning to replace the ageing F-16 fighter fleet


Belgium Eurofighter Typhoon Fighter option
The Ministry of Defence of United kingdom is publicly lobbying Belgium to buy British Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jet .Air Vice Marshal Keith Bethell, the director of combat air kit in the MoD’s equipment arm, said in a canned quote:

“Our world-class Typhoon has led the way in combat air power and this demonstrates the continued confidence in the capability the Typhoon has to offer. With more than 20,000 flying hours on global operations to date, the Typhoon offers unparalleled reliability and proven interoperability with our allies.”

The MoD is also trying to tempt Belgium away from the Yanks by dangling “integration with the RAF’s Typhoon support arrangements” as well as a “training partnership”, which could mean an integrated UK-Belgium squadron of the sort proposed to Qatar.Also included in the deal is a proposal for Belgium to form “a National Network Cyber Centre, a Cyber Innovation Centre and a Cyber Research Partnership” with the UK, which may or may not trigger memories of the time Britain’s GCHQ hacked Belgium’s biggest mobile network operator. Belgium is HQ for the European Union, various NATO command and control facilities, and also for some of the UN’s European presences.Whether Belgium will buy the F-35 from the US or the Typhoon from the UK –. With the EU’s military ambition gradually expanding with the European Defence Fund, it may be the case that Belgium picks the British option for political reasons.


This is really awkward as a whole. To an outside observer, it would appear that the UK is publicly favoring the EF over the f-35. It was kind of obvious that they're going to do this to sell the jet, but it makes me think about how nerfed they're going to try to make the F-35 appear in exercises with the EF, in order to avoid any awkwardness.
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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 03:48

The UK is retiring Typhoons while acquiring New F-35B's. Yet, tells Belgium they should acquire the former over the latter. Isn't that "do as a say and not as I do"???
:doh:
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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 10:25

ricnunes wrote:
monkeypilot wrote:If every european countries jump into F-35, Europe will not anymore be able to design one from scratch and HAVE to buy american.


Please don't confuse France or even the "France-Germany Axis" as being Europe or most of the Europe or don't pretend France-Germany to be the "whole Europe"!
I live in an EU country (Portugal) and why should my EU country or other EU countries such as Belgium jump into a French fighter aircraft just to save France's fighter aircraft industry?? Or are you even trying to convince anyone if other EU countries purchases a French fighter aircraft (like the Rafale or that proposed Franco-German "5th" gen fighter aircraft) that it would receive the complete capability to build fighter aircraft in-country from France?? LoL if you do :doh:

In the end why should I trust France or Germany more than the USA, specially when it comes to military and/or fighter aircraft??
It doesn't matter if other EU countries such as Belgium (or Portugal) buy from France-Germany or USA they won't have a fighter aircraft industry so it's better for the "non-French/German Europe" to purchase the BEST and CHEAPEST fighter aircraft while still receiving a very good offset package and that option is the F-35 (and only the F-35)!


We're not doggy styled enough by germans and french, we need to bend over @ 90nl degree, more often, more quickly.
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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 12:23

Belgium is the hyper center of Europe and a net contributor. In itself it could be a reason to favour european industry (beit Rafale, Gripen or Typhoon, alll of them are Europeans if not UE). Portugal is a very heavily subsidized country that should , a bit grateful (as you say) for the zillions of Euro UE invested there to help your country gettin a decent infrastructure? (presently every Portugal citizen gains around 500 € per year thanks to EU subventions). Or should UE give you the money to buy our of EU? No thanks.

Nutshell, where are you from? Please read what was written actually instead of some lose ppl interpretations. Noone ever said bend, france-german axis etc... (at least not me...)
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ricnunes

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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 13:32

monkeypilot wrote:Portugal is a very heavily subsidized country that should , a bit GRATEFUL (as you say) for the zillions of Euro UE invested there to help your country gettin a decent infrastructure? (presently every Portugal citizen gains around 500 € per year thanks to EU subventions). Or should UE give you the money to buy our of EU? No thanks.


You've shown your true colors here:
Once again a clueless comment from someone from the French-German axis who thinks they are better than everyone else in Europe and as such that everyone else in Europe should bow to your highnesses (like nutshell said).
If you think that the heavy subsides that Portugal received (and yes, Portugal received heavy subsides from the EU) came for free than you should immediately stop taking those drugs that you're consuming.

Those "heavy subsides" as you call it came at a very high expense for Portugal:
- In return for those "heavy subsides" Portugal had to dismantle one of the biggest fishing fleets in Europe! Who benefited from this the most?? RING RING RING - FRANCE who's now has the biggest fishing fleet in the EU:
Image

- Also in return for those "heavy subsides" Portugal had to limit it's production (quota) milk and derivate products and again who benefited from this the most?? RING RING RING - FRANCE!

- Also in return for those "heavy subsides" Portugal had to dismantle its Metallurgy industry! Who benefited from this the most?? RING RING RING - GERMANY!
And I could continue, on and on an on...

Of course that I don't blame France and Germany at least at 100% for the issues above. We had very weak political leaders which sold Portugal's economy (or several sector of the economy) in exchange for money.

But at least Portugal is now solving its deficit problems and what about your country which runs deficits above 3% (and thus breaking the EU rules) like forever and longer than Portugal, eh?
But like Jean Claude Junker said, France is France... Right, and for those on the other side of the Atlantic/world which are not aware of this, he meant that France can have all the deficits it want and break all the rules it want that nothing will happen as opposed to any other EU country who dares to break a 10th of the rules that France breaks!

You know Froggy, you should look at you country first and how hypocrite you sound when you complain about other countries in the EU. No wonder why Euroskepticism is growing rampant in the EU and the UK bailed out! :roll:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post05 Mar 2018, 13:47

Listen, monkey, i won't attack you or hold you responsible for the EU politics, it is what it is: 2 countries reaping most of the benefits and other 26 licking their wounds.

My country would be irresponsible if suddenly decides to "support" the european domestic industry, more so in light of the german backstabbing in 2011 and 2012, french hostility in naval industry, the "idgaf" attitude we got times and times again.

There's not a single field where Italy didnt get shafted by the EU; supporting dassault or airbus would be almost comical.

Damn we committed so much in to the JSF, there are literally 0 reason to not stick with the F35.

Last but not least: i will be always proud of my country's military as long as we prioritize quality over anything else and the JSF delivers so much,much, much quality.
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