Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

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monkeypilot

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Unread post20 Feb 2018, 19:01

Interesting move...
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sunstersun

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Unread post20 Feb 2018, 19:07

Asinine.

What would Belgium do with naval planes? Deploy em on French carriers? What experience do they have with maritime operations.

Besides if they wanted a naval plane the F-35B could deploy on far more carriers than the Rafale could.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post20 Feb 2018, 19:09

:roll: 8) Belgium pollies look to be really SAD people but hey that is a prerequisite eh. :drool: :bang:
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XanderCrews

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Unread post20 Feb 2018, 20:29

spazsinbad wrote::roll: 8) Belgium pollies look to be really SAD people but hey that is a prerequisite eh. :drool: :bang:



The way I believe it is, is there are 3 distinct populations. You will never guess what the predominantly French speaking population and politicians want...
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monkeypilot

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Unread post20 Feb 2018, 20:51

Called Dassault. Answer : "BS"

And no Xandercrews, the choice will not be dictated by linguistics on this issue. Belgium politics is extremely complicated due to proportional votes. Language is only one of many factors. However, french speaking belgium could be in favour of Rafale, but it would mainly be so because of SABCA, largely owned by Dassault and located mostly in french speaking part. Do not think belgium are more pro french because of language. History is more complicated.
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Unread post23 Feb 2018, 00:51

As you say.... politics can be tricky.

I don't have an article, but the below tweet is from Air Recognition.... two motions trying to crowbar the Rafale back into the mix.

With Belgium committed to maintaining their nuke mission, it seems a lock for the Lightning.

Belgium's Chamber of Representatives just rejected two resolutions which would potentially have paved the way for the Rafale:

1. Include the program in a European dimension
2. Exclude the use of nuclear weapons


https://twitter.com/AirRecognition/stat ... 7383993344
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hythelday

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Unread post23 Feb 2018, 01:05

First Dassault offered 20 bn worth of offset deals, then Dassault said Belgium will choose Rafale because it would offer sea-based power projection.

Was it Goebbels who said "the bigger the lie, the easier it is believed"?
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monkeypilot

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Unread post25 Feb 2018, 11:35

hythelday wrote:First Dassault offered 20 bn worth of offset deals, then Dassault said Belgium will choose Rafale because it would offer sea-based power projection.

Was it Goebbels who said "the bigger the lie, the easier it is believed"?


Well, then do not believe Goebbels.
Dassault did notsay anything. It is a lawmaker. Their is a huge difference.
Later he explained that it was "apart" from the deal and simply an offer for deeper strategic collaboration.
Dassault can quite easily offer 20 bn worth of offsets as it owns about 50% of SABCA, one of the main aerospace belgium company... And already generates a huge cashflow in Belgium.
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Unread post28 Feb 2018, 21:00

If France/Germany had been a bit clever about this, they would have made a well defined roadmap for a 5. gen fighter already; presented this to Belgium together with a proposal for Belgium to become a partner to develop the "EU" fighter, and as a stop-gap offered lease of a suitable eurocanard for 10-12 years until the 5. gen fighter was ready.

Gripen E would be the perfect stop-gap lease candidate; lower operating costs than the other two Eurocanards.

Finland could be offered the same, but perhaps with Rafale as the most relevant lease candidate.

Poland could be a third potential candidate for such a deal.

However no concrete plans for a 5. gen EU fighter exists. The politicians lack the capability for long-term strategic thinking.

Thus Belgium and Finland (and Poland, when they get there) will all most likely go for F-35, and Germany and France may have to cover all the costs for a 5. gen by themselves (perhaps Sweden will join them?)
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neptune

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Unread post28 Feb 2018, 21:49

loke wrote:If France/Germany had been a bit clever about this.....)


....seriously???
...If the majority of major European economies are in NATO and the majority of the NATO member nations are flying squadrons of F-35s, then why would any responsible national defense leader "Not" select the European, common F-35? The common operations, training, logistics and infrastructure expenses alone would leverage for their common defense. Shirley the EU is more about mutually supported economies than in name only. "IF" a European group decides to build a technology competitor for the F-35, it would make more sense to at least start from an experienced F-35 operating base to establish the future design requirements. Unless resources are limited, any technologist always prefers a competition to encourage the optimum efforts/ goals. I totally understand the need for political "make-work" projects and social and economic demands they must satisfy but, at least it could be focused in a more beneficial manner by manufacturing F-35 sub-systems or components that could develop technological skills demanded by the future competitive aircraft.
IMHO.
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monkeypilot

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Unread post28 Feb 2018, 23:27

neptune wrote:
loke wrote:If France/Germany had been a bit clever about this.....)


....seriously???
...If the majority of major European economies are in NATO and the majority of the NATO member nations are flying squadrons of F-35s, then why would any responsible national defense leader "Not" select the European, common F-35? The common operations, training, logistics and infrastructure expenses alone would leverage for their common defense. Shirley the EU is more about mutually supported economies than in name only. "IF" a European group decides to build a technology competitor for the F-35, it would make more sense to at least start from an experienced F-35 operating base to establish the future design requirements. Unless resources are limited, any technologist always prefers a competition to encourage the optimum efforts/ goals. I totally understand the need for political "make-work" projects and social and economic demands they must satisfy but, at least it could be focused in a more beneficial manner by manufacturing F-35 sub-systems or components that could develop technological skills demanded by the future competitive aircraft.
IMHO.
:)


And both become totally dependant on US and kill european fihter aircraft industry.? No thanks.
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white_lightning35

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Unread post01 Mar 2018, 05:30

monkeypilot wrote:
And both become totally dependant on US and kill european fihter aircraft industry.? No thanks.


Hmmm... Makes one wonder why it is called the new "Franco-German" fighter and not "Franco-German-Belgian-Polish" fighter? Why didn't Ms. Merkel go to Denmark and ask them to join when she was talking with Macron about it? Do you think any European country, other than France or Germany, will get more out of this program than out of the f-35 program? Do you think this program will even get get past the beginning stages before falling apart, because the French demanded that everything be their way? And we all know that anyone who doesn't listen to them or the Germans isn't being a good "European". But hey, US very bad bad, everything is its fault.
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Unread post01 Mar 2018, 07:36

SpudmanWP wrote:Belgium wants to buy Rafale fighters for naval capability, says French lawmaker

PARIS — Belgium has shown interest in the Rafale fighter jet for maritime use, said Jean-Jacques Bridey, chairman of the French Defence Committee of the lower house National Assembly.

“The Belgians are interested in the Rafale,” he told The Defense Journalists Association. “Why? If they buy the Rafale, it will be the naval Rafale.”

Belgium is interested in the aircraft’s ability to land on the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, which would boost Belgium’s deployment capacity, Bridey said. “This is a seaborne airbase, after all,” he added.

France has pitched the Rafale in an offer of broad bilateral military cooperation with Belgium, opting out of a competition that has attracted British and American offers of the Eurofighter Typhoon and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, respectively.

Laurence Mortier, the spokeswoman for Belgium’s defense minister, said she could not confirm the interest in a carrier-based aircraft.

.... More at the Jump
https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2018/ ... -lawmaker/


:lmao:

Sounds like something RT or Sputnik would post.... :shock:
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monkeypilot

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Unread post01 Mar 2018, 20:00

white_lightning35 wrote:
monkeypilot wrote:
And both become totally dependant on US and kill european fihter aircraft industry.? No thanks.


Hmmm... Makes one wonder why it is called the new "Franco-German" fighter and not "Franco-German-Belgian-Polish" fighter? Why didn't Ms. Merkel go to Denmark and ask them to join when she was talking with Macron about it? Do you think any European country, other than France or Germany, will get more out of this program than out of the f-35 program? Do you think this program will even get get past the beginning stages before falling apart, because the French demanded that everything be their way? And we all know that anyone who doesn't listen to them or the Germans isn't being a good "European". But hey, US very bad bad, everything is its fault.


It is not a question of money, and yesi think so. Denmark had already decided in favour of F-35. Omgz this stupid old legend that everything parted away because the french wanted everythnig their way. (nothing about UK that absolutely wanted RR to be the only engine maker?)
Sorry, but a plane where even level I partner UK do not have codes? It is called total dependency. Be US good or bad. Whatabout any NATO partner not doing what US tell (like second Irak war) must be "punished" (citing your frmer secretary)?
But of course france is bad.... (and managed to build with other european countries a UCLASS for 40 millions, about 1 tenth of X47 cost)...
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rheonomic

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Unread post02 Mar 2018, 02:03

monkeypilot wrote:And both become totally dependant on US and kill european fihter aircraft industry.? No thanks.


I mean, it's basically a jobs program for European engineers at this point...
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