Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2013, 18:26
by joost
The Dutch Minister of Defence anounced today to choose definitely for the F-35. The budget of 4 Billion Euros will not be increased, and the number of F-35s to be purchased will depending on the price per aircraft (most probably around 30-35). There will be one squadron stationed in Leeuwarden, and one in Volkel. She announced this today with the presentation of the "toekomstvisie" van Defensie (future vision of Defence). The subject has been debated in the Minister Council Friday. It is not yet known when the public announcement will be made.

http://www.nu.nl/politiek/3500156/minis ... f-jsf.html

RE: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2013, 19:17
by thegroundeffect
30 to 35 aircraft are never enough to ensure operational capabilities. The RNLAF already has vipers stationed in Afganistan, and I very much doubt it would be able to do the same with only 35 F-35's in it's inventory.

Re: RE: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2013, 19:19
by bigjku
thegroundeffect wrote:30 to 35 aircraft are never enough to ensure operational capabilities. The RNLAF already has vipers stationed in Afganistan, and I very much doubt it would be able to do the same with only 35 F-35's in it's inventory.


I doubt they could. This is about maintaining a capability to regenerate an air force if they need to. The F-35 is perfect for that. It can do things for them locally and the production line will be open for many years if their security situation changes and they need more 20 years from now.

RE: Re: RE: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2013, 19:31
by joost
There are four F-16s stationed in Afghanistan. Shouldn't be a mission impossible to send 4 F-35 on deployment with an inventory of 30-35. The number is just an educated guess, but might be more depending on what they will agree upon for the budget. Or maybe they will follow up in the future with another (smaller) purchase. Remember the Swiss has now 33 front line fighters (F-18s) apart form some F-5s. It is not that they can't do anything with their Hornets.

RE: Re: RE: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2013, 19:40
by SpudmanWP
Depends on what the 4 billion Euros covers.

Image

RE: Re: RE: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2013, 19:52
by SpudmanWP
Per the latest budget, the WSC (Weapons System Cost) for a FY2016 F-35A should be $128 million USD which is 95 Euro.

So if the 4 Billion is WSC, then they should be able to buy 42 of them. They get cheaper after 2016 (120 in 2017, 107 in 2018, etc)

Details will have to wait till they say what the 4 Billion covers.

RE: Re: RE: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2013, 22:44
by thenonflyingdutchman
It wasn't announced by minister of defence Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert.
Broadcaster RTL said 'sources' told them that the MoD had choosen the F-35 as successor to the F-16.

Hennis denies that a final decision has been made, and says what RTL said was 'based on nothing' (She's probably lying, and thinking 'who has leaked this information?)

Re: RE: Re: RE: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2013, 21:39
by m
SpudmanWP wrote:Per the latest budget, the WSC (Weapons System Cost) for a FY2016 F-35A should be $128 million USD which is 95 Euro.

So if the 4 Billion is WSC, then they should be able to buy 42 of them. They get cheaper after 2016 (120 in 2017, 107 in 2018, etc)

Details will have to wait till they say what the 4 Billion covers.

Would not pay attention to this article. Just some lousy journalists. Nothing special at their mind and filled space with some crap about the F35 (Same kind of journalists as one can find in the US or Canada).
No risk to come up with by these journalists, anyone knows the F35 will be ordered. Nice try, but got hardly attention

Quote: Minister Hennis van Defensie spreekt tegen dat ze voor de JSF heeft gekozen. RTL Nieuws meldt vandaag dat Hennis de JSF wil als opvolger van de F-16-straaljager en dat de meest betrokken ministers het daarmee eens zouden zijn. Het kabinet zou er morgen over praten.
Hennis zegt dat ze geen idee heeft waar dit vandaan komt en dat het bericht nergens op is gebaseerd. Ook andere bronnen spreken het bericht tegen. Ze wijzen er onder meer op dat de Algemene Rekenkamer nog bezig is met berekeningen.
http://nos.nl/artikel/517817-hennis-nog ... r-jsf.html

Translation: Hennis Minister of Defence disputes that she has chosen for the JSF. RTL Nieuws reports today Hennis wants the JSF as successor to the F-16 fighter jet and the ministers most involved would agree. The government would talk about it tomorrow.
Hennis says she has no idea where this came from and the message is based on nothing. Other sources speak against the message against as well. They point out, inter alia, the Audit Court is still working at calculations.


Budget and an order F35

What most Dutch seem not to be aware of, as well as Dutch journalists seem not to have that very much knowledge of letters to parliament.
Ordering the F35 has always been the plan to order in batches. Two batches, like the F16 was ordered in two batches as well. This will be an order for a first batch.

Some years ago published in a letter to parliament, with the numbers F35 of both batches (85)
The number 85 as at that time was mentioned was spit in two batches.
A possible second order, when a government would decide to, would be a responsibility for a next government (as published some years ago)

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2013, 02:55
by popcorn
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ef-387104/

Q: What chance is there for European manufacturers to win orders in F-35 partner nations such as the Netherlands?

A: The [Lockheed Martin] F-35 is a politically-driven solution from the USA, and decisions have been made. But the F-35 has demonstrated, like all the big fighter programmes, that a sophisticated programme is not so easy to develop and succeed. Maybe in 10 years it will be okay, but at the moment it is in the middle of this. For a customer, if you make a fair competition then I will come and I will do it, but if not I will not spend any money to send my people. The Netherlands has a lot of MoUs [memoranda of understanding] already signed, and I do not believe they will leave the [F-35] programme. But my successor and my shareholders will decide what to do.

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2013, 16:39
by joost
Today in the newspaper some leaked news about the plans for MoD: they will lose 6 to 7 F-16s but in return they will get the F-35 as the succesor of the F-16. The number of F-35 will depend on the price. But the Air Force is only allowed to spend the already allocated budget of 4 billion Euro for the F-35.

The plans will be released the 17th of September.

Translated:
Defense sells a ship that is still under construction. It is the Karel Doorman, the largest and highest Navy ship, Newspaper Trouw wrote today based on sources in and around the Defence organization. There will be also six or seven F16s scrapped.

The construction of the Karel Doorman cost over 400 million euros. The removal of the supply ship, which is under construction in Flushing, is part of a cut of 330 million euros. The Marines must also scrap a company, 180 to 200 men.

The Army is to scrap one of the four armour infantry battalions. This means a loss of 600 to 650 jobs. Opposite dropping the 6 to 7 F-16s in the Air Force, stands that the JSF will replace the F-16s. The number aircraft depends on the price. No more than four billion euros are to be spent. These measures come on top of a cut of a billion that Defence had processed earlier.

In Dutch:
Defensie verkoopt een schip dat nog in aanbouw is. Het gaat om de Karel Doorman, het grootste en hoogste schip van de marine, schrijft Trouw vandaag op basis van bronnen in en rond de defensietop. Ook worden er zes of zeven F16's geschrapt.

De bouw van de Karel Doorman kost ruim 400 miljoen euro. Het schrappen van het bevoorradingsschip, dat in aanbouw is in Vlissingen, maakt deel uit van een bezuiniging van 330 miljoen euro. De marine moet ook een compagnie inleveren, het gaat dan om 180 tot 200 man.

Bij de landmacht wordt een van de vier pantserinfanteriebataljons geschrapt. Daarmee verdwijnen 600 tot 650 banen. Tegenover het schrappen van de F16's bij de luchtmacht staat de JSF die het vliegtuig opvolgt. Het aantal toestellen hangt af van de prijs. Er mag niet meer dan vier miljard euro aan worden uitgegeven. Deze maatregelen komen bovenop een bezuiniging van een miljard euro die Defensie eerder moest verwerken.

http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/09/04/def ... iet-af-is/

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2013, 18:53
by m
joost wrote:Today in the newspaper some leaked news about the plans for MoD: they will lose 6 to 7 F-16s but in return they will get the F-35 as the succesor of the F-16. The number of F-35 will depend on the price. But the Air Force is only allowed to spend the already allocated budget of 4 billion Euro for the F-35.

The plans will be released the 17th of September.

Translated:
Defense sells a ship that is still under construction. It is the Karel Doorman, the largest and highest Navy ship, Newspaper Trouw wrote today based on sources in and around the Defence organization. There will be also six or seven F16s scrapped.

The construction of the Karel Doorman cost over 400 million euros. The removal of the supply ship, which is under construction in Flushing, is part of a cut of 330 million euros. The Marines must also scrap a company, 180 to 200 men.

The Army is to scrap one of the four armour infantry battalions. This means a loss of 600 to 650 jobs. Opposite dropping the 6 to 7 F-16s in the Air Force, stands that the JSF will replace the F-16s. The number aircraft depends on the price. No more than four billion euros are to be spent. These measures come on top of a cut of a billion that Defence had processed earlier.

In Dutch:
Defensie verkoopt een schip dat nog in aanbouw is. Het gaat om de Karel Doorman, het grootste en hoogste schip van de marine, schrijft Trouw vandaag op basis van bronnen in en rond de defensietop. Ook worden er zes of zeven F16's geschrapt.

De bouw van de Karel Doorman kost ruim 400 miljoen euro. Het schrappen van het bevoorradingsschip, dat in aanbouw is in Vlissingen, maakt deel uit van een bezuiniging van 330 miljoen euro. De marine moet ook een compagnie inleveren, het gaat dan om 180 tot 200 man.

Bij de landmacht wordt een van de vier pantserinfanteriebataljons geschrapt. Daarmee verdwijnen 600 tot 650 banen. Tegenover het schrappen van de F16's bij de luchtmacht staat de JSF die het vliegtuig opvolgt. Het aantal toestellen hangt af van de prijs. Er mag niet meer dan vier miljard euro aan worden uitgegeven. Deze maatregelen komen bovenop een bezuiniging van een miljard euro die Defensie eerder moest verwerken.

http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/09/04/def ... iet-af-is/


Would not take this serious untill sept 17. We have seen these kind of speculations by news papers in the past as well. For instance LPD HNLMS Rotterdam was reported to be sold in 2005.

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2013, 20:02
by joost
Labour party gives up restance tot F-35. The news mentioned above was announced today on national news tv: this month the government can decide about the purchase of the F-35. Expected is that MoD can purchase 35 aircraft for the budget of 4 billion Euro. Labour party says now they JSF is they best aircraft for the best price and supports the decision. Labour and liberals are forming the ruling party coalition in the netherlands.

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2013, 21:13
by spazsinbad
Labour party now supports JSF fighter jet project: Nos 06 Sep 2013 DutchNews.nl
"The Labour party has given up its opposition to the purchase of the JSF fighter jet and will support the project, ‘well-informed sources’ in The Hague have told Nos television. The cabinet is set to decide soon whether or not to press on with the order for 30 to 40 jets to replace the air force’s aging F16s. The original order was for 85 jets but this has been cut over the years....

...Report
The cabinet is expected to take a final decision this month, following the publication of a report on the costs by the general auditors office, Nos said. However, even if the green light is given, the issue still has to be passed by parliament and it will still be some five years before the aircraft actually arrive in the Netherlands."

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... ts_jsf.php

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2013, 10:49
by spazsinbad
Dutch to purchase 37 F-35 fighter planes - sources 17 Sep 2013
"(Reuters) - The Netherlands will purchase 37 F-35 Joint Strike Fighter planes, two sources with knowledge of the matter told Reuters on Tuesday, a decision that should end years of political wrangling over ballooning costs and delays.

Defence Minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert was due to announce the decision later on Tuesday in a policy paper setting out her long-term vision for the Dutch armed forces, the sources said...."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/ ... H620130917

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2013, 15:02
by thenonflyingdutchman
37 aircraft, that's no longer an air force.

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2013, 16:12
by bigjku
thenonflyingdutchman wrote:37 aircraft, that's no longer an air force..


Honestly that is why the F-35 makes sense here. They can operate 37 to retain skills and a cadre of pilots and if the international situation changes the line will be open long enough they can buy and operate more later.

That is likely not the case with the other Western programs.

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2013, 18:00
by thenonflyingdutchman
bigjku wrote:
thenonflyingdutchman wrote:37 aircraft, that's no longer an air force..


Honestly that is why the F-35 makes sense here. They can operate 37 to retain skills and a cadre of pilots and if the international situation changes the line will be open long enough they can buy and operate more later.

That is likely not the case with the other Western programs.


That's true. Although i don't see it as likely to happen, when i think of our politicians.

I'm not against the F-35, my problem with this buy is that we have to keep flying our F-16's until 2023 or so. These aircraft are in a very poor state already and will be obsolete in the near future if they are not already so.

I would have bought two sqaudrons of Dassault Rafale ten years ago, fly a mixed fleet of F16/Rafale and then gradually replace three or four F-16's with one F-35. And from 2025/2030 on replace Rafale with F-35's.

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2013, 18:05
by cantaz
I would have bought two sqaudrons of Dassault Rafale ten years ago, fly a mixed fleet of F16/Rafale and then gradually replace three or four F-16's with one F-35. And from 2025/2030 on replace Rafale with F-35's.


Using the Rafale as a transition fighter for 20 years is very expensive and you're doing twice the amount of transition work in that period as well. If the Dutch bought Rafales a decade ago, they would've gone whole-sale into replacing the F-16 with them and wouldn't be looking at the F-35 right now.

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2013, 18:06
by neptune
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... rs-390647/

Netherlands cuts F-35 fleet plan to 37 fighters; plus

Netherlands cuts F-35 fleet plan to 37 fighters
By: Craig Hoyle London

The Netherlands’ government has confirmed the selection of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter to replace the nation’s aged F-16s, but its purchase is likely to be for fewer than half of the number of aircraft previously anticipated.

Included as part of a budget announcement made on 17 September, the decision will lead to the introduction of the nation’s first frontline examples at Volkel air base from 2019.

“The replacement will be carried out entirely within the previously reserved investment budget of €4.5 billion [$6 billion] and the current operating budget for the F-16, which amounts to €270 million per year,” the government says. “Based on the current insights, the available financial room is sufficient for the purchase of 37 aircraft.

“The defence organisation will from now on base its plans on that number, and will inform its partners in the F-35 programme accordingly.”

Previous plans had called for the Royal Netherlands Air Force to eventually receive up to 85 Joint Strike Fighters, but this total has for some time exceeded the size of its now-dwindling F-16 inventory. In its announcement, the government says a further seven of the current type will be withdrawn in 2014, cutting the fleet size to 61 aircraft, with three squadrons. The type will leave Dutch use in the mid-2020s.

Citing the need for “careful consideration and astute choices” during a time of budget pressure, the government notes: “Opting for a modest number of the best aircraft attests to a sense of reality.” The F-35 was selected on “operational, financial and economic grounds”, and “is also the most future-proof option”, it adds.

Noting that the unit price for its conventional take-off and landing F-35As is not yet known, it comments: “Should any unexpected major changes occur in terms of product, time or money, the project will be reviewed within the given financial parameters, if those changes exceed the margins of the project budget.”

However, the statement notes: “If, within the given financial parameters, room is created in the coming years to purchase more aircraft, the defence organisation will do so. This may be the case if the [10%] contingency reserve is not used in full and if the price per unit of the F-35 turns out to be lower than is currently expected.”

The air force should be able to manage effectively with its more capable F-35s, says the government, which is also eyeing potential savings to be made through “international co-operation in areas such as training, sustainment and deployment”. A proposed bilateral quick reaction alert agreement already being discussed with Belgium would also reduce the impact of maintaining such an air policing capability in both nations, it adds.

..

The positive decision should also clear the way for two test aircraft already delivered to support initial operational test and evaluation activities to be returned to flight status. The pair were grounded earlier this year, pending the outcome of the formal selection decision.

. :)

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2013, 21:32
by joost
I told you.... :D And 37+ will be the maximum for now, no money for follow on orders or so, but still: we will get the F-35! For the better observers: all partners already ordered, or reconsidered and ordered the F-35, despite the doom messages of the nah sayers (the so called domino effect which will just not start). Only ones to follow are the Danes and the Canadians...and guess what: they will order them as well... read my lips! Just like Turkey, UK, Italy, Norway, the Netherlands, USMC, USAF and USN.

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2013, 21:56
by spazsinbad
Oh dear. Are the Australians not buying any? And What About the Spanish and Singaporeans and Israelis and Japanese? There is a world far from the US and Europa. :D The South Koreans may get some eventually.... :roll:

LM FAST FACTS 09 Sep 2013
"...Planned Quantities*
USAF 1,763 F-35As
USN 260 F-35Cs
USMC 340 F-35Bs/80 F-35Cs
U.K. RAF/RN 138 F-35Bs
Italy 60 F-35As/30 F-35Bs
Netherlands 85 F-35As
Turkey 100 F-35As
Australia 100 F-35As
Norway 52 F-35As
Denmark 30 F-35As
Canada 65 F-35As
Israel 19 F-35As
Japan 42 F-35As
*Based on current programs of record."

https://www.f35.com/assets/uploads/down ... _facts.pdf (165Kb)
______________

May we add Belgium to the list of possibles? Also here: http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... 672#259672

Exclusive: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s - source 17 Sep 2013 Andrea Shalal-Esa
"(Reuters) - U.S. government officials have briefed the Belgian government about the capabilities of the Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) F-35 fighter jet, as Brussels prepares to replace its aging fleet of 60 F-16s, a source familiar with the matter told Reuters on Tuesday.

The source, who was not authorised to speak publicly, said Belgium was considering buying 35 to 55 of the new radar-evading F-35 jets. No decisions are expected until late 2014 at the earliest after next year's elections in Belgium....

...Lockheed's F-35 programme manager, Lorraine Martin, declined comment, saying that foreign military sales are handled by the U.S. government.

U.S. defence officials had no immediate comment...."

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/09/1 ... 4820130917

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2013, 22:18
by cantaz
joost wrote:Only ones to follow are the Danes and the Canadians...and guess what: they will order them as well... read my lips!


I certainly hope your optimism turns out to be correct. :wink:

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2013, 23:10
by joost
cantaz wrote:
joost wrote:Only ones to follow are the Danes and the Canadians...and guess what: they will order them as well... read my lips!


I certainly hope your optimism turns out to be correct. :wink:


It will! My optimism won't disappoint you :-) indeed I forgot to mention the Australians, sorry about that! The Israelis and Japanese are orders outside of the partnership (FMS), so that is why I didn't mention it.

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2013, 23:36
by spazsinbad
Noworriescobber...

Dutch to buy JSF fighter jets in 4.5-bn-euro deal 17 Sep 2013
"The Netherlands will buy 37 new F-35 Joint Strike Fighters (JSF) from US-based Lockheed Martin in a deal worth 4.5 billion euros ($6 billion) to replace its ageing fleet of F-16s by 2019, the country's defence minister said Tuesday.

Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert announced the long-debated purchase in a letter to parliament at the presentation of the government's 2014 budget at the Lower House's official opening in The Hague.

"In view of our current planning, the F-35 (also known as the Joint Strike Fighter) will go into service by 2019," operating from two Dutch air force bases, the minister said.

"After evaluating competitors in 2001 and 2008 and with updated relevant data in 2013, the cabinet has decided, based on operational and financial considerations, to choose the F-35 as the new fighter plane for the Dutch armed forces," she said.

The choice had been widely expected, with the Netherlands closely involved as one of the contributing countries to the JSF's development.

As early as 1997, the JSF has been flagged as the preferential candidate to replace the Dutch fleet of F-16s because of its stealth features, which make it almost invisible to radar.

In 2002, the Netherlands and eight other countries joined the fighter's development phase.

But a finalised Dutch purchase had been rejected in parliament, mainly by the centre-left Labour Party (PvdA) while in opposition.

However, that decision changed after Labour formed a majority coalition in the Lower House with Prime Minister Mark Rutte's Liberal party (VVD) after last September's elections."

http://www.expatica.com/nl/news/dutch-n ... 74180.html

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2013, 00:23
by discofishing
I would consider a signed contract "formal". Anything else would be informal.

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2013, 00:59
by maus92
deleted

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2013, 01:04
by maus92
spazsinbad wrote:Oh dear. Are the Australians not buying any? And What About the Spanish and Singaporeans and Israelis and Japanese? There is a world far from the US and Europa. :D The South Koreans may get some eventually.... :roll:

LM FAST FACTS 09 Sep 2013
"...Planned Quantities*
USAF 1,763 F-35As
USN 260 F-35Cs
USMC 340 F-35Bs/80 F-35Cs
U.K. RAF/RN 138 F-35Bs
Italy 60 F-35As/30 F-35Bs
Netherlands 85 F-35As
Turkey 100 F-35As
Australia 100 F-35As
Norway 52 F-35As
Denmark 30 F-35As
Canada 65 F-35As
Israel 19 F-35As
Japan 42 F-35As
*Based on current programs of record."

https://www.f35.com/assets/uploads/down ... _facts.pdf (165Kb)
______________


Well, if the Dutch are any example, you'd have to adjust each buy to 44% of planned quantities.... (37/85 = 44%)

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2013, 02:20
by spazsinbad
Why would the Dutch be an example for heavens sake? There are plenty of articles now describing the intentions of Australia for example as well as the USofA protecting the F-35 buy. Europe have bad economies. Shirley when / if their economies improve they may buy more is the implication I see. But hey I'm the glass half full viewer. Programs of Record are for a reason and we look forward to LM adjusting such a record in the next 'Fast Facts' edition.

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2013, 07:02
by lookieloo
spazsinbad wrote:Why would the Dutch be an example for heavens sake? There are plenty of articles now describing the intentions of Australia for example as well as the USofA protecting the F-35 buy. Europe have bad economies. Shirley when / if their economies improve they may buy more is the implication I see. But hey I'm the glass half full viewer. Programs of Record are for a reason and we look forward to LM adjusting such a record in the next 'Fast Facts' edition.
At this point in the program, a half-order is better than a delay when it comes to the rather small parade-ground purchases... and we'll just have to see what the picture is years from now when the Dutch get their 37th copy.

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2013, 08:22
by popcorn
I'm not unduly worried about reduced order sizes by Partner countries. Defense spending is cyclical and if security considerations warrant, money will be found to buy more jets. Like legacy jets before it, the F-35 manufacturing line is likely to stay busy long after it's envisaged production run.

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2013, 10:08
by Corsair1963
joost wrote:I told you.... :D And 37+ will be the maximum for now, no money for follow on orders or so, but still: we will get the F-35! For the better observers: all partners already ordered, or reconsidered and ordered the F-35, despite the doom messages of the nah sayers (the so called domino effect which will just not start). Only ones to follow are the Danes and the Canadians...and guess what: they will order them as well... read my lips! Just like Turkey, UK, Italy, Norway, the Netherlands, USMC, USAF and USN.



Your 100% Correct...........(IMO) :wink:

Unread postPosted: 19 Sep 2013, 03:11
by m
spazsinbad wrote:Why would the Dutch be an example for heavens sake? There are plenty of articles now describing the intentions of Australia for example as well as the USofA protecting the F-35 buy. Europe have bad economies. Shirley when / if their economies improve they may buy more is the implication I see. But hey I'm the glass half full viewer. Programs of Record are for a reason and we look forward to LM adjusting such a record in the next 'Fast Facts' edition.


Spaz, ever tought about this? The Dutch always intended to order the F35 in batches.
In fact they even did order more F35’s then planned in 2009
37 (35 +2) in stead of 27 (25 + 2)
Or they will order a second batch? We don’t know.

We have financial problems, may be a political decision at he moment not really mentioning a second batch, only a possibility some more F35’s?
It’s a kind of strange there is no sign decreasing the number f16’s to 37?
At the moment operational: 68 F16’s (This numbere is not quite true, not yet sold F16’s are still flying in the Airforce)
From 68 F16’s the number decreases to 61.
This number of seven less F16’s will be operational reserve F16’s.

nr. 159
BRIEF VAN DE STAATSSECRETARIS VAN DEFENSIE EN MINISTER VAN ECONOMISCHE ZAKEN
Aan de Voorzitter van de Tweede Kamer der Staten-Generaal
Den Haag, 27 maart 2009

In this letter (2009) a schedule of a first batch: 27 F35’s, 2 Test F35’s included.
This is a schedule of a first batch as mentioned in the letter of 2009

2009: 1 (First test F35)
2010: 1 (Second test F35)
2010: Decision replacement F-16, first batch
2012: 2
2013: 4
2014: 9
2015: 10
Total: 27

After 2015 (decennium): decision second batch

Unread postPosted: 19 Sep 2013, 03:37
by spazsinbad
To be accurate from vague memory it seems a lot of countries are ordering in batches: UK, Australia and Israel for example have or will order in batches soonish. Just using the Dutch as an example of overall order decrease for every country was not appropriate. That was my point. Good to know the Dutch will be having a likely second batch later (see countries above).

Unread postPosted: 19 Sep 2013, 10:15
by spazsinbad
Dutch Statement: originally from: http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_talk ... ghter.html

Dutch Government Statement on Its F-35 Selection 17 Sep 2013
"The F-16 has unequivocally proven its worth for the armed forces in intervention and stabilization operations.

In the coming decades, we will continue to require fighter aircraft.

After comparing the candidates in 2001 and 2008, and updating the relevant information in 2013, the government has decided, on operational, financial and economic grounds, to select the F 35 as the new fighter aircraft for the Netherlands armed forces.

The F-35 is a well-considered choice for a high-tech, future-oriented air force.

From a military operational perspective, the F-35 offers the greatest number of options. It is also the most future-proof option. The aircraft is best able to deal with the proliferation of mobile air defense systems and offers vastly improved observation capabilities, which are of great value in any type of mission.

In addition, the aircraft offers great potential for follow-on development, particularly in the area of network-enabled operations.

Also important are the possibilities for international cooperation in areas such as training, sustainment and deployment. NATO’s analyses underpin the Netherlands’ decision.

With this decision, which concludes a process of almost fifteen years, the Netherlands is responding to the Alliance ‘s call for investment in quality and, consequently, in the collective security of the Alliance. The decision also consolidates the opportunities for the Dutch industry to gain contracts for high-quality work, both in the production of the F-35 and in the sustainment phase.

The cutbacks in Defence budgets which many NATO member states, including the Netherlands, are facing demand careful consideration and astute choices. Above all, opting for a modest number of the best aircraft attests to a sense of reality.

International cooperation is the ideal way to further optimize operational effectiveness. An important step in this respect is the intention of Belgium and the Netherlands to patrol the Benelux airspace together. These Quick Reaction Alert (QRA) and Renegade tasks currently place heavy demands on the pilots and aircraft of the two separate countries.

Cooperation will therefore significantly benefit both countries. A treaty will be required in order to be able to carry out these tasks in each other’s airspace.

In many areas, the introduction of a next-generation fighter aircraft will lead to new insights and applications. The Royal Netherlands Air Force, research institutes and the commercial sector have the innovative potential to play a leading role internationally in this respect.

The organizational management of the air force will be structured in such a way as to guarantee optimum operational output at all times. With the introduction of the F-35, the possibilities for pilots to maintain their skills after their operational period will be reduced to a minimum. This is to ensure that the available flying hours are primarily used for operational pilots.

It has been decided that the replacement will be carried out entirely within the previously reserved investment budget of 4.5 billion euros and the current operating budget for the F-16, which amounts to 270 million euros per year. This will prevent budget displacement effects, which sooner or later would be to the detriment of other capabilities.

As the cost per unit and the operating costs for the F-35 are as yet not definite, there will be a contingency reserve of ten percent for the investments and the operating costs. This can be used to meet any unforeseen rise in the estimated costs, without any direct consequences for the number of aircraft. Opting to maintain tight financial parameters underscores once more that the Defence organization is determined to put and keep its finances in order. Based on the current insights, the available financial room is sufficient for the purchase of 37 aircraft.

The Defence organization will from now on base its plans on that number and will inform its partners in the F-35 program accordingly.

If, within the given financial parameters, room is created in the coming years to purchase more aircraft, the Defence organization will do so. This may be the case if the contingency reserve is not used in full and if the price per unit of the F-35 turns out to be lower than is currently expected. In that case, in addition to the deployment possibilities referred to earlier, the air force would also be able to provide a short-term contribution to a second large-scale operation, as was done recently in Libya.

The order system allows the final number of aircraft to be kept within the available budget. Should any unexpected major changes occur in terms of product, time or money, the project will be reviewed within the given financial parameters, if those changes exceed the margins of the project budget.

Compared with the current fleet of F-16s, the air force will in future be able to deploy fewer F-35s for longer periods of time. In addition to the permanent deployment for the protection of Dutch and Allied airspace, with 37 F-35s the Netherlands will continue to be able to deploy four fighter aircraft, simultaneously and continuously, to support Dutch ground troops as was done in Uruzgan and is still being done in Kunduz.

In 2014, the current number of F-16s will be reduced by 7, to 61. This will reduce the investment costs involved in maintaining the F 16 for a longer period of time. The 7 aircraft will be added to the logistic reserve, to improve the deployability of the remaining 61.

The deployability goals for the period up to the replacement of the F-16 will be adjusted accordingly. The F-16s and pilots stationed in the Netherlands will be divided into three squadrons.

On the basis of the current estimated timescale, the introduction of the F 35 will begin in 2019. The air force will decommission the last F-16s in the mid-2020s.

As the noise regulations in the Netherlands do not permit concentration of all aircraft at one air base, Volkel and Leeuwarden will both remain in operation as the two Dutch fighter air bases.

In 2015, however, the status of Leeuwarden will be changed from a Main Operating Base to a Deployed Operating Base. This means that the functionalities of the base will be limited to the necessary minimum. The overheads will be concentrated at Volkel Air Base."

http://www.sldinfo.com/dutch-government ... selection/

Unread postPosted: 19 Sep 2013, 21:12
by newmanfrigan
I would also point out that the "44% of the original purchase" schema is also flawed in that it ignores the purchases of Israel, Japan etc. We also have to consider that Singapore, Spain and others will likely purchase the F-35. Belgium has signalled interest. This will go a long way to ameliorate any cuts in orders.

I'd also be stunned if the Koreans go ahead with F-15s. It's a choice that was made by beancounters and it surely won't sit well with the ROKAF. It seems to me that the F35 program has actually gotten over the hump. The dire forecasts of death spiral just haven't come true and the viewpoint that the fighter is flawed is definitely not shared by those whose opinion really matters in the airforces of the World. The letter from the Korean generals objecting to the F-15 purchase is just one of many examples of this.

It's never going to be a smooth ride vis a vis public opinion for such an expensive military project...at least in Europe and North America. Countries like Russia and China will probably be much more reluctant to reveal setbacks, cost overruns etc. I'm not aware of any beancounting agencies like the GAO in these countries. Also, public opinion in Russia and China tends to be supportive of these projects, whereas there is a knee jerk in the opposite direction in the West. My two cents.

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2013, 15:49
by maus92
Labour members rebel on JSF, audit office says figures don't add up

Thursday 19 September 2013

"The cabinet may have agreed to spend €4.5bn on 37 JSF fighter jets, but criticism of the decision is mounting both inside and outside parliament.

The government's audit office said on Thursday it had doubts about the defence ministry's spending plans and that there are gaps in the calculations about use of the JSF.

'The audit office does not support the statement that the defence ministry's vision will lead to a financially and operationally sustainable armed forces,' the statement said."

- See more at: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... xgHyf.dpuf

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2013, 21:09
by spazsinbad
It seems to me (as apparently the Tea Party does to the Republican Party) that the ordinary Labour members wish to influence the Labour leader decision makers unduly in the Dutch Government. How good is that. I look forward to a paralysed government - similar to the US Congress these days.... I wonder what the track record is of the members of Dutch Parliament being able to overturn the decision makers of the Labour Party?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2013, 21:45
by m
spazsinbad wrote:It seems to me (as apparently the Tea Party does to the Republican Party) that the ordinary Labour members wish to influence the Labour leader decision makers unduly in the Dutch Government. How good is that. I look forward to a paralysed government - similar to the US Congress these days.... I wonder what the track record is of the members of Dutch Parliament being able to overturn the decision makers of the Labour Party?

The problem is the number F35;s, a too low number to do the job.
As explained by their leader of the pvda on TV

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2013, 22:02
by spazsinbad
Politics is all about using Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. FUD. Nothing new really and I'll assume that the Dutch Parliament works like other democratic parliaments in that decisions are made by the ruling coalition (in this case) but criticised by all and sundry yet manage to be implemented nevertheless? Or does the tail wag the dog?

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2013, 22:02
by m
Best reading this:

'Decision on JSF is the PvdA'
Editorial - 20/09/13, 11:55


In the long-running case on the JSF is the word now to the PvdA. "This is not unlike other Cabinet decisions," said Labour Minister Lilianne Ploumen of Foreign Trade and Development before the Cabinet.
According to Deputy Prime Minister and Lodewijk Asscher (PvdA) is all about the difference between the government and parliament. "We control and they control the House and take the job seriously."

According Asscher Samson can still say no to the JSF. "I saw yesterday," he referred to the statements of Samson at Pauw & Witteman. If the government does not come with a good foundation, "it is not by" Samson said last night.

According to him, it is not clear or may be to do what the military wants to do everything. Enough equipment bought The Court was also critical of the decision because the calculations on the readiness of the JSF as the successor to the F16 are "not complete" are. The report shows that according to Samson "still some uncertainties, exactly at the point where we want to see collateral. The sum is now complete and therefore not convincing," said Samson.

Rather let Minister Frans Timmermans know that the PvdA members could agree in the Cabinet because they had been on three key questions. Who went about the cost and the number that the Netherlands can purchase the technology of the device and the future tasks that the JSF to perform.

Samson is not as far as Timmermans, but can be by Minister Hennis like to convince, "but with the right information." Asscher points out once again that MPs should have to say the room. Earlier Labour group members expressed their displeasure that they were made by the decision. Before the block

Minister Hennis stated today that the process surrounding the decision on the JSF is carefully completed. She therefore confident that when they debate in November a majority behind its plans will be able to get. They all said Thursday that "the beauty of parliamentary democracy is that the groups and the Chamber may make their own decisions."

Labour: "too many uncertainties"
The PvdA could "not support" the decision of the Cabinet to the JSF purchase. That said Labour leader Diederik Samsom Friday after lengthy deliberation fraction.

He referred to a critical report by the General Court. It follows that there are "too many uncertainties" are around the JSF, including on the question whether the Netherlands four of the 37 devices can work for an international mission at any time.

The group is 'united' in its position, Samson said. He added that the group has some sympathy for the choice of the government for the JSF and the reasoning that the JSF is the best device for the Dutch and ambitions for the deployment of the Dutch armed forces.

Samson: "We want an air force that many may abroad, including protecting our men and women in hard work they do and include also bring peace and security in unstable regions that, you have a successor to the F-16 needed. . We understand the choice of the government, but this is more than just a type, it is also about numbers and quantities aircraft missions.''

Samson goes with this view Saturday also to the Labour Council of Members in Zwolle. The supporters of his party is against the purchase of the new American fighter. He loves it possible for the group finally agrees to the JSF. If the PvdA securities not get is that "certainly conceivable.
http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... ctie.dhtml

Unread postPosted: 20 Sep 2013, 22:06
by spazsinbad
A bit incomprehensible (from translation) but thanks. I'll wait for an English version and the outcome of all the hoohaa at some future time. Just politics to me which will have an outcome (already decided but just clamour for clamour sake it seems to me).

Unread postPosted: 21 Sep 2013, 00:37
by m
spazsinbad wrote:A bit incomprehensible (from translation) but thanks. I'll wait for an English version and the outcome of all the hoohaa at some future time. Just politics to me which will have an outcome (already decided but just clamour for clamour sake it seems to me).

You are right. He said he was surprised the audit office came wilh. Impossible, he must have known already at sept. 5
He agreed this summer, there is hardly no way back.for him. The file needs to be closed after all these years. In november I hope we can and fly the jet instead of all this bloody sh ...

Unread postPosted: 21 Sep 2013, 01:51
by spazsinbad
Seems to me the Dutch like to agonise in the same way the Canadians are prone. Oh well. Good luck.

Unread postPosted: 21 Sep 2013, 18:46
by treebeard
The whole things is a bit of a political cock up.

The Labour party members seated in the House of Representatives know all too well that the entire idea of spending 4,5 billion on F-35A's ("JSF's") is hugely unpopular amongst their voters. They are heavily cutting programs and budgets related to things they valued the most in the recent elections, whereas reduced defense spending was, as always, one of their primary means to pay up for those ideas. On the other hand it should be made clear that postponing or cancelling a F-35A purchase does not necessarily mean that the reserved 4,5 billion can be used elsewhere. This is only possible when the complete idea of replacing our F-16s gets nulled and the reserved budget of 4,5 billion is cut from the yearly defense budget. That in itself is not something I see a lot of parties do (save the ones on the left and right flank).

Even though the labour part of government (their respective ministers) have accepted the idea of buying the F-35A, their members and voters remain rather critical due to the critical press of the last couple of years. For the past few days there have been several discussions, between both the Labour ministers and the Labour representatives in parliament as well as within a Labour party congress in which voters are allowed to give a frame of mind. The result of todays votings within the Labour party were quite simple: motions to stop our participation within the JSF test phase (something the Labour party supported before joining government) and organise a second congress concerning this particular subject did not pass, whereas a vote requesting more information concerning the lifetime costs and operational capabilities of 37 aircraft passed. Seeing how party leader Samsom made clear that this information would be crucial for the position of their vote in the House of Representatives, I suspect that both the MoD and the government will be coming around with extended clarifications of their ideas on operational capacity (2023: 4 F-35A reserved for international missions, QRA tasks shared with Belgium) and operational costs using the latest Pentagon calculations.

All in all it's rather strange that Labour of all parties chooses the question the operational sustainability of the 4-jet goal with 37 aircraft as they were amongst the foremost parties promoting further defense cuts and were part of the government that reduced the overall reserved budget for a F-16 replacement. Despite earlier criticism concerning the F-35A and the JSF project this seems to be the primairy concern on behalf of the representatives in parliament, seeing how Labour has accepted the technical fact that the F-35A is the best of all alternatives that were taken into consideration as a possible replacement.

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 07:43
by sasheska
First of all this government has to survive the next few weeks, which is a bit 50/50. They have no majority in parliament, two parties have already indicated that they will not cooperate at all. Some of the other parties were irritated to their max in a debate yesterday which has reduced their chance of cooperation. Which means that this government has a high chance of not getting any plan through parliament. At that point their will be such a political deadlock that the only option is to resign and have new elections. Which has a 80% chance of a anti F35 majority. The government parties are reduced to nothing in polls and have lost the trust of many voters for a long time.
There is a decision (which by the look of it, is no decision at all), there has not been a vote, there is no signed contract.

And next batches? The airforce hardly has the budget to operate F35's. The economic outlook and the budget needs of other area's (health, pensions, rising sea levels and the need for better sea defence) don't leave any room for later batches. Maybe when they loose 10 due to crashes or battle, they might order another 10. More than 37 in the next 20 years is wishful thinking.

M writes about Dutch F16's in a post above. Talking about 68 operational F16's..... Because of tight budgets, the number of F16's able to fly is less than 45. The other ones are harvested for parts to keep the flying ones operational. There is no budget to maintain them all. The choice for only 37 F35's is therefore logical, it is probably close to the number of F16's they can realistically keep in the air at this moment.

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 07:49
by sasheska
In 2010 the number of F16's really able to fly was 30.

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2013, 00:42
by m
sasheska wrote:First of all this government has to survive the next few weeks, which is a bit 50/50. They have no majority in parliament, two parties have already indicated that they will not cooperate at all. Some of the other parties were irritated to their max in a debate yesterday which has reduced their chance of cooperation. Which means that this government has a high chance of not getting any plan through parliament. At that point their will be such a political deadlock that the only option is to resign and have new elections. Which has a 80% chance of a anti F35 majority. The government parties are reduced to nothing in polls and have lost the trust of many voters for a long time.
There is a decision (which by the look of it, is no decision at all), there has not been a vote, there is no signed contract.

And next batches? The airforce hardly has the budget to operate F35's. The economic outlook and the budget needs of other area's (health, pensions, rising sea levels and the need for better sea defence) don't leave any room for later batches. Maybe when they loose 10 due to crashes or battle, they might order another 10. More than 37 in the next 20 years is wishful thinking.

M writes about Dutch F16's in a post above. Talking about 68 operational F16's..... Because of tight budgets, the number of F16's able to fly is less than 45. The other ones are harvested for parts to keep the flying ones operational. There is no budget to maintain them all. The choice for only 37 F35's is therefore logical, it is probably close to the number of F16's they can realistically keep in the air at this moment.


Actually sir 68 F16;s and 45 flying, results in 66% with your numbers. That's surely not that really bad.
The main problem with 37 F35's, it will not be possible having enhough pilots with such a low number.

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2013, 03:14
by Conan
m wrote:
Actually sir 68 F16;s and 45 flying, results in 66% with your numbers. That's surely not that really bad.
The main problem with 37 F35's, it will not be possible having enough pilots with such a low number.


Plenty of countries successfully operate fighter fleets of less than 37 aircraft. I don't see why the Netherlands couldn't?

Your pilots may end up spending more time in simulators and fast jet trainers than they are used to and less time in "operational" seats but it's perfectly viable to run a fleet of 37 or fewer fighter jets, depending on your operational needs and priorities.

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2013, 21:26
by m
Conan wrote:
m wrote:
Actually sir 68 F16;s and 45 flying, results in 66% with your numbers. That's surely not that really bad.
The main problem with 37 F35's, it will not be possible having enough pilots with such a low number.


Plenty of countries successfully operate fighter fleets of less than 37 aircraft. I don't see why the Netherlands couldn't?

Your pilots may end up spending more time in simulators and fast jet trainers than they are used to and less time in "operational" seats but it's perfectly viable to run a fleet of 37 or fewer fighter jets, depending on your operational needs and priorities.


This will depend on a country will join a mission

Example Netherlands
Total F35: 37
- F35’s in the US (training pilots): 5
- QRA: 2
- Test F35 (Orange wired): 1
Total: 31

31 F35
F35: (50%15 – 4 > 11 F35’s
F35: (70%) 21- 4 > 17 F35’s

A mission with 4 F35’s will need 27 pilots (3x9)
Mission area for some weeks: 18 pilots
QRA at a home will need 24 pilots

A F35 flies some 200-240 hours a year
A pilot will fly some 180 hours a year

In this case there are hardly not enough F35’s for pilots flying training hours
(As well after a mission a pilot is not qualified anymore and needs training)

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2013, 22:17
by spazsinbad
'm' how about a familiar theme from at least three major operators of F-35s that half of the required F-35 'flying time' will be in the simulator? Have you factored in a similar percentage. Every country will make up their minds about this issue and whether or not they have the equivalent simulators. Perhaps sharing the expensive simulators will be useful in Europe? As well perhaps DutchLanders will be sharing aircraft with BelgiumLanders? :D

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2013, 00:26
by m
spazsinbad wrote:'m' how about a familiar theme from at least three major operators of F-35s that half of the required F-35 'flying time' will be in the simulator? Have you factored in a similar percentage. Every country will make up their minds about this issue and whether or not they have the equivalent simulators. Perhaps sharing the expensive simulators will be useful in Europe? As well perhaps DutchLanders will be sharing aircraft with BelgiumLanders? :D


These are numbers as mentioned by the Dutch Audit Office.
A lot more about this subject has been described by the Audit office, these are just some numbers. It's a very difficult subject.
As the Audit Offiice explains, as they did before, 37 F35s are not enough 'with an ambition having 4 F35;s on a mission (as well as not enough in a former report in the context of NATO)

The problem is not a number of 4 F35;s on a mission, but not having anough pilots on a longer mission.
They still mention 180 flying hours a year will be needed for a pilot. They did not mention, simulator flying hours included as far as I know

Netherlands, Norway and Denmark either can be seen as partners within this project. Belgium has a possiliy to join these (F16 EPAF) partners as well .

Belgium? I really hope they will, but I have no idea how Belgium will manage to find money to do this?
Defense budget some €2,7 billion a year and a very low budget for investement.

Dutch:
- Investments some 20% a year next years or some €1,5 billion a year.
(Belgium last year: €243 million).
- Dutch investment budget next 18 years: €27 billion (some €.1.5 billion a year)
- Total defence budget: some €135 billion (some €7.5 billion x 18 )

- Belgium:
- Total defense budget: 18 years: €48.6 billion (€.2.7 billion a year?)
- Investment budget next 18 years: €4.3 billion (some €243 milion a year?)
- Former years: some 6- 7% investment a year

At the same Belgium needs to replace their frigates, mine ships, army equipoment etc
Suppose next 18 years a total investment of €4,3 billion, how they will manage to replace the F16 as well?
(I really hope our neighbours will manage to do this)

Sharing with Belgium? Seems to me quite a problem. Belgium is not a levelpartner and will need to order F35;s in a different way ... FMS.

Unread postPosted: 06 Nov 2013, 23:22
by joost
After a 12 hour debat the Labour party finally agreed to support the purchase of the F-35. Some guarantees were explicitly asked. The F-35s should not have a nucleair task, and the noise abatement rules should be applied around the airbases as is. No adjustment of the regulations here. They also questioned the number of jets and how many will be available for deployments and the work compensations.

After the Labour party got satisfied with the answers by the Minister of Defense, the labour party agreed to support the decision to purchase the jets. Thereby ending this long lasting episode in favor of the F-35 :D

Here a link but in Dutch....sorry...

http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/11/06/pvd ... schaf-jsf/

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 00:24
by spazsinbad
You can always get Google Translate to have a go but I do not know the accuracy of the outcome. Perhaps 'joost' or other Dutch speakers can comment on the translation to English?

http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/11/06/pvd ... schaf-jsf/

Labour agreement to purchase JSF 06 Nov 2013
"Interior
The Labour Party agrees to the purchase of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). "I have sufficient guarantees to take the next step on behalf of the Labour Party," said Labour MP Angelien Eijsink tonight against the end of an hour-long debate in the House.

Earlier in the day Eijsink said yet that "the traffic light was orange. She wanted to five points further commitments Defense Minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert (PvdA). These included more to employment, the number of devices that can be purchased and noise.

PvdA wants noise closely held
Late at night, after answering Hennis, Eijsink said her questions were answered satisfactorily. Therefore her group agrees to purchase 37 JSF aircraft for 4.5 billion euros. Well Eijsink wants closely held that the noise for residents of the JSF bases will not increase.

Defense Minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert (VVD) defined in the debate that the current noise standards for jet flights will not be stretched for the JSF.

"The noise is not doctored," said Hennis. The minister said to have the concerns of residents of the airbases Leeuwarden and Volkel, where the vessels are stationed understanding.

"But I've also said, you can also see the sound as the sound of freedom."

Opposition critical of drafting Labour
Several opposition parties accused Eijsink have staged a play. "This morning I already predicted that the Labour Party would agree," recalled Green Left party leader Bram van Ojik. "This felt like a bad movie that you already know the outcome," also said CDA MP Raymond Knops.

The outcome of the parliamentary debate marks the end of a long discussion about whether or not to purchase the highly controversial fighter plane, the position of Labour regularly exchanged.

JSF does not fly with nuclear weapons
Hennis further said that it is not intended that the Dutch JSF's nuclear weapons fly. That the JSF can do this, has not been a consideration in the decision of the government to opt for the device. "No in capital letters," said Hennis.

It emerged that a parliamentary majority against the so-called 'nuclear task "for the JSF. The F-16 may be flying with nuclear weapons. These include the U.S. nuclear weapons are stored at the airbase Volkel.

Representative will make a stand for orders
A special representative is going to hard to make the orders that business should get in the JSF project. That benefit Minister of Economic Affairs Henk Kamp (VVD) to the House earlier in the debate. If it were up to camp, this all representative within three weeks to work.

The impetus for the Dutch business is one of the important considerations to take on the JSF project. This may be the Dutch industry until 2065 to thirty billion yield Camp held the Chamber. He pledged the Chamber regularly to keep the orders received by the business community informed.

The JSF delivers Netherlands 110 thousand to 140 thousand working years. "But this should be in practice of course still all true," he added,.

Also regarding the cost can be no guarantees, said Finance Minister Jeroen Dijsselbloem (PvdA) in the debate. But the 4.5 billion that has been earmarked for the replacement of the F-16 remains, he. Guaranteed"

http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... haf-jsf%2F

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 00:56
by joost
seems like a good enough translation, Spazsinbad! :-)

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 02:23
by cantaz
Is nuclear weapon carriage actually a serious and relevant issue for the Dutch, or is it one of those gestures for the Labour Party to somehow save face?

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 02:27
by spazsinbad
The US stores Nuclear Weapons at a special site in the Netherlands - which was highlighted recently.

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 10:19
by joost
One of the Volkel based Dutch F-16 squadrons (312sq) has a nucleair task. In the past two squadrons (311 and 312) had this task. Indeed it was all over the press recently, with two former Prime Ministers acknowledging what everybody knew, that there are 10-20 US B61 stored at Volkel.

After the debate yesterday it became clear the Dutch Parliament want to get rid of this task of 312sq. Therefore there needs to be consensus in Nato and progress in the nucleair agreements with Russia, which seems to be two preconditions to dispose this job for 312sq in the future.

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 11:22
by m
spazsinbad wrote:The US stores Nuclear Weapons at a special site in the Netherlands - which was highlighted recently.

Doubt what this journalist writes
Quote: JSF does not fly with nuclear weapons. Hennis further said that it is not intended that the Dutch JSF's nuclear weapons fly. That the JSF can do this, has not been a consideration in the decision of the government to opt for the device. "No in capital letters," said Hennis.

Not one of these papers does mention this:

http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2686/Bin ... -JSF.dhtml

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2203 ... JSF__.html

http://www.parool.nl/parool/nl/3587/POL ... -JSF.dhtml

http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4500/Politiek ... -JSF.dhtml


What they publish:
Google translate: According to Minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert (Defence) is the JSF technically able to throw. Nuclear bomb This task has played no role in the decision to buy the phone, she added.

The government is in favor of removal of tactical nuclear weapons from Europe. But there are two conditions attached. Firstly, a reduction in Europe only possible if there is progress in the negotiations with the Russians and secondly, there was agreement within NATO.

These two conditions seem to be. As satisfied Is in negotiations with the Russians little progress. And within NATO is consensus on this issue away. A number of NATO Member States is in favor of maintaining the U.S. nuclear weapons in Europe.

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 13:21
by m
There will be probably not many Nato countries left with a nuclear task after 2025

Netherlands: Airbase Volkel
o B61-3/4 (10-20)
o F16 MLU > F35A block IV (B61-12). In case decision nuclear task

Italy: Airbase Ghedi-Torre
o B61-3/4(10-20) > Künftig 0? (From now on 0? )
o Tornado > F35A block IV (B-61-12)


Turkey: Airbase ?ncirlik
o B61: unkown. Probably none (Stationierung von DCA der USA möglich - Stationing of DCA of the USA possibly )
o F16C/D / F35A block IV

Germany: Büchel
o B61-3/4 (10-20)
o Tornado IDS update carrying B-61-12 .
Tornado flying till probably 2025. There are no intentions to replace the Tornado by the F35

Belgium: Airbase Kleine Brogel
o B61-3/4 >10-20):
o F16 MLU > Replacement by F35A block IV?


Atomwaffen-Modernisierung in Europa
Das Projekt B61-12
Otfried Nassauer & Gerhard Piper
http://www.atomwaffenfrei.de/fileadmin/ ... ie_web.pdf

Quotes PDF: F35
Die Nuklearversion der F-35A (Block IV) wollen drei europäische Staaten beschaffen: Die Niederlande, Italien und die Türkei.
Mehrere Länder wollen zudem die konventionelle Variante erwerben (Großbritannien, Norwegen und Dänemark).

Translator: Three European states want to procure the nuclear version F-35A (block IV): The Netherlands, Italy and Turkey.
Besides, several countries want to acquire the conventional variation (Great Britain, Norway and Denmark).

Turkey
(5) Ob und wie viele Nuklearwaffen derzeit tatsächlich in der Türkei gelagert werden, ist unbekannt. Die türkische Luftwaffe stellt z. Zt. keine Trägerflugzeuge mehr und gestattet auch keine dauerhafte Stationierung von U.S.-Jagdbombern in der Türkei.

Translator: (5) Whether and how many nuclear weapons are stored nowadays really in Turkey, is unknown. The Turkish air force puts at the moment no more carrier airplanes and also permits no lasting stationing of U.S.-hunting bombers in Turkey.


Updating the F16MLU with a to develop Interface Control Unit (B61-12) seems to me not relevant as well
- Netherlands: Phasing out 16MLU. Replacement by F35A (2019 -2023)
- Belgium: Phasing out the F16 MLU (2023 - ?). Replacement by F35A ?

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 13:22
by m
..

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 14:07
by m
spazsinbad wrote:'m' how about a familiar theme from at least three major operators of F-35s that half of the required F-35 'flying time' will be in the simulator? Have you factored in a similar percentage. Every country will make up their minds about this issue and whether or not they have the equivalent simulators. Perhaps sharing the expensive simulators will be useful in Europe? As well perhaps DutchLanders will be sharing aircraft with BelgiumLanders? :D


Yep, but still fying hours will be needed for guest pilots as well. Audit Office: 210 hours per F35
Last year 68 F16. Besides operational pilots (60-68 ) flying the F16 MLU, as well as 45 guest pilots needed to fly the F16. Guest pilots (temporary) staf functions etc.

Sharing aircraft with Belgium? A possibility, but will Belgium procure the F35 ?
The Rafale could be an option as well. Belgium joins a training centre with France, training pilots
The Frence speaking part of Belgium could favour a Frence option.

The Netherlands, Norway and probably Denmark, seem to go on as was done during F16 EPAF

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 15:07
by joost
M you forget the UK and France with their own nucleair arsenals. The overview you gave is US B61 storage places only.

Belgium most probably will buy some F-35s off the shelf as been reported/suggested earlier this year. I doubt Rafales will be purchased, but they have indeed operated Mirage 5 in the past, so not 100% ruled out.

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 15:43
by m
joost wrote:M you forget the UK and France with their own nucleair arsenals. The overview you gave is US B61 storage places only.

Belgium most probably will buy some F-35s off the shelf as been reported/suggested earlier this year. I doubt Rafales will be purchased, but they have indeed operated Mirage 5 in the past, so not 100% ruled out.

Yep, you are right. 11 underground shelters (Germany, Italy, Belgium, Netherlands). 4 B-61 per shelter according the PDF.

Are you that sure about Belgium? I'm not convinced that much. Secondly, a main problem will be a low investment budget, Some €200-€240 million per year?

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 17:21
by cantaz
joost wrote:I doubt Rafales will be purchased, but they have indeed operated Mirage 5 in the past, so not 100% ruled out.


France is planning on cutting their domestic Rafale order and they badly need to find someone to buy (or maybe lease?) the surplus. Not only are the excess Rafales a problem for their program to reduce military spending, it's also giving the Indians leverage in the Indian Rafale negotiations. France needs to find strong interest for those Rafale, quickly, and IMO they're more likely to find that in Belgium than say, Canada.

France can offer Belgium logistical and training offsets, but it can offer little meaningful incentives (vis-a-vis the F-35 program) for Canada.

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 18:26
by joost
m wrote:Are you that sure about Belgium? I'm not convinced that much. Secondly, a main problem will be a low investment budget, Some €200-€240 million per year?


Hi M,

Here is some info, but the Belgims are just starting their debate. But the MP has already hinted to the F-35. The Rafale will also not be a much cheaper option.

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/957/Binnenland ... 16-s.dhtml

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 19:02
by m
joost wrote:
m wrote:Are you that sure about Belgium? I'm not convinced that much. Secondly, a main problem will be a low investment budget, Some €200-€240 million per year?


Hi M,

Here is some info, but the Belgims are just starting their debate. But the MP has already hinted to the F-35. The Rafale will also not be a much cheaper option.

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/957/Binnenland ... 16-s.dhtml


The Rafale is not a cheaper jet (Swiss). But not really a problem, hardly ever is a main reason for buying equipment.


Some reasons could be:
28 Alpha Jet 1B+ jettrainers, based on Cazaux Air Base in France for joint training with French Air Force

Quote 2012: The two ministers also discussed the possibility of joint training of pilots of the NH90 helicopter being acquired by both countries. France and Belgium intend to extend their already-existing cooperation on pilot training to other armed services.

Belgium is not a level partner F35, so both jets will be offered samewise. Dassault or LM, who is gonna offer them a best economical deal?

The Walloons will probably want a French solution

Belgium is rather Euro minded. In 2001/2002 they were quite mad the Dutch joined the JSF project. Members of parliament demanded action to persuade the Dutch not to join. They were seen as anti Europe.

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 21:50
by joost
I did a quick search, but I cannot find anything pointing to Belgian interest in Rafales. The F-35 interest, in public announced in September 2013, was also confirmed in wikileak docs apparently.

The Cazaux training use should not be a lead to a Rafale purchase, and probably the Belgians have to pay enough for the facilities. The Singapore AF is also not buying Rafales, although they have a trianing sqn based at Cazaux.

Of course it is possible, but so far I do not see any leads to a potential Rafale buy, only pointing towards F-35s so far. But lets see and wait, everything can change the coming years...

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 21:51
by cantaz
This is just me being selfish, but Belgium acquiring surplus Rafales would also remove some of the temptation for Canada to make a bad decision.

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 21:56
by spazsinbad
Perhaps these stories are duplicated over the page in another language? Anyway here are some English stories about Europe Nuke Bombs today:

http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/ ... lear-bomb/
&
http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 32188.html

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2013, 22:12
by bigjku
cantaz wrote:This is just me being selfish, but Belgium acquiring surplus Rafales would also remove some of the temptation for Canada to make a bad decision.


For someone in a budget minded shopping mode I would guess Belgium would not be too excited to have to replace basically all its fighter ordinance which they would seem to have to do.

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2013, 01:26
by m
joost wrote:I did a quick search, but I cannot find anything pointing to Belgian interest in Rafales. The F-35 interest, in public announced in September 2013, was also confirmed in wikileak docs apparently.

The Cazaux training use should not be a lead to a Rafale purchase, and probably the Belgians have to pay enough for the facilities. The Singapore AF is also not buying Rafales, although they have a trianing sqn based at Cazaux.

Of course it is possible, but so far I do not see any leads to a potential Rafale buy, only pointing towards F-35s so far. But lets see and wait, everything can change the coming years...

Suppose there is not much information available yet. Belgium just started a replacement proces.

No idea Belgium will pay a lot for facilities? It's a joint flying school for Frence and Belgium pilots. Belgium provides 28 trainingjets.
Dutch pilots wil be trained in the US (F35). In case a Belgium F35 order, will a joint Frence/Belgium pilotschool have a future ?

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2013, 01:31
by m
spazsinbad wrote:Perhaps these stories are duplicated over the page in another language? Anyway here are some English stories about Europe Nuke Bombs today:

http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/ ... lear-bomb/
&
http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 32188.html

I don't know that much about nuclear weapons, not interested in. This German PDF is one of very few I have read about this subject. Anyway, thanks for these links. Gr. M

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2013, 01:50
by m
cantaz wrote:This is just me being selfish, but Belgium acquiring surplus Rafales would also remove some of the temptation for Canada to make a bad decision.

Till so far F35: US, UK, Norway, Italy, Norway, Netherlands, Turkey, Australia, Japan, Israel. Probably S. Korea and Denmark will follow.
Rafale: France and if they will order ...till so far, only India

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2013, 16:45
by cantaz
m wrote:Till so far F35: US, UK, Norway, Italy, Norway, Netherlands, Turkey, Australia, Japan, Israel. Probably S. Korea and Denmark will follow.
Rafale: France and if they will order ...till so far, only India


It's Canada, we're not exactly know for enlightened military procurement policy. When we were trying to select a Sea King replacement, we ditched the vastly more popular Merlin and eventually selected the Cyclone that no one else uses. Our government (backed by a largely ignorant public) is perfectly capable of selecting the Rafale over the F-35 despite how incredibly stupid that decision would be.

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 06 Nov 2014, 05:59
by spazsinbad
F-35s Go Dutch
05 Nov 2014 Nicholas Fiorenza

"The Royal Netherlands Air Force's (RNLAF) 323 Squadron took command of the first two Dutch F-35s in Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, Nov. 4.

The squadron is responsible for the Dutch F-35's operational test and evaluation (OT&E) phase, which begins at Edwards Air Force Base, California, at the end of the year.

The squadron was previously responsible for the OT&E of the F-16 and for the operational standardization of the combat aircraft, both nationally and internationally.

The first F-35s are scheduled to come to the Netherlands in 2019."

Source: http://aviationweek.com/blog/f-35s-go-dutch

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 16 Dec 2014, 10:34
by spazsinbad
First JSF fighter jets will arrive in the Netherlands in 2019
16 Dec 2014 DutchNewsNL

"The first JSF jet fighter aircraft will arrive in the Netherlands in 2019, ministers have told MPs. The Netherlands will buy eight aircraft a year from 2019, taking the total to 37.

The first of the jet fighters will be stationed at the airforce base in Leeuwarden. Later, the base at Volkel will also be equipped to take them. The JSF is replacing the current fleet of ageing F-16 jets.

Most of the JSFs will be used for training purposes and to defend Dutch air space. Just four will be available for military missions abroad..."

Source: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... -2019.php/

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 17 Dec 2014, 10:24
by spazsinbad
Dutch F-35 orders ready to take off
16 Dec 2014 Craig Hoyle

"...The [F-35A] type’s introduction will coincide with a reduction in the nation's active fleet of Lockheed F-16s, from a current 61 examples to 45 in 2021 and 24 in 2023, before leaving use the following year.

Once at full strength, the Netherlands’ F-35 fleet will be sufficient for the nation to declare up to six of the type as available to support NATO operations, including two for quick reaction alert duties. Its investment in the type is expected to total €4.6 billion ($5.8 billion), the defence ministry says."

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ff-407165/

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2015, 10:33
by joost
LtGen Bodgan was in the Netherlands this week and talked to Parliament members.

Article is in Dutch but the highlights:

- F-35 will become cheaper, in 2019 80-85 Mln USD
- no price guarantee can be given due to the program complexity and dynamics
- Dutch MoD want to order eight aircraft for delivery in 2019, contract has to be signed in March 2015 for this batch
- first two aircraft will be stationed in Leeuwarden AFB in the second half of 2019, two years later the first aircraft will be delivered to Volkel AFB
- five aircraft will remain in the US for training, other 32 will be stationed in the Netherlands, with constantly 4 aircraft ready for deployments (ability from 2024 onwards).



http://www.spitsnieuws.nl/binnenland/20 ... -goedkoper

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2015, 20:06
by joost
Today on the Dutch radio news it was announced that the Dutch Parliament approved the purchase of the first 8 F-35As (of course we already have two aircraft, so that makes 10).

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2015, 23:52
by treebeard
I'll drink to that!

Gotta love the subtle lack of anything closely resembling a long term vision in the Democratic party by the way.

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2015, 08:57
by joost
Parliament says "go" to purchase of first JSFs

A large majority in parliament supports the purchase of the first eight Joint Strike Fighters. ,, This is the point of no return, "said Minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert, Minister of Defense Thursday during a debate on the successor to the F-16, which the Air Force currently operates.

The purchase according Hennis also important in view of the developments in Ukraine and the Middle East. It is in this context ,, about time "that the Air Force will get clarity on the fighter that she is going to fly in the future, said the minister.

Finish Line reached
The government gets the sensitive issue "across the finish line, "stated Ronald Vuijk of the VVD (liberals). About the successor of the F-16 was discussed since the mid-nineties. The eight aircraft must fly in 2019 with the Royal Air Force. A total of 37 are eligible for 4.5 billion euros.

D66 (Democrats) turned against the decision. The party sees too many uncertainties when it comes to include the cost and performance of the US unit. We are increasingly ,, drawn in the the JSF swamp "said Wassila Hachchi.

'D66 turns'

D66 ,, is twisting, "said the liberal Vuijk. PvdA (Labor) and CDA (Christan-Democrats) wanted to know what alternative Hachchi then saw for the F-35 JSF. ,, You can not postpone a decision a few years, "said Raymond Knops of the CDA. Freedom Party, Green Left and SP (socialists) are also against the purchase.

The CDA still has concerns. The financial support of the project is not sustainable, says Knops. Furthermore, the Christian Democrats find it not good that no account is taken of peace losses. The government is, going according to him ,, of wishful thinking. "

Hennis sees rising

According to Minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert (Defence) there are always risks when buying weapons. ,, Especially at this one. "But she just sees ,, upward trend" in the development of the JSF.

Also PvdA Angelien Eijsink is positive. She sees ,, great progress "on the points which had put her party requirements such as noise, emissions, finance and employment.


http://www.z24.nl/economie/kamer-zegt-g ... sfs-542246

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2015, 11:20
by gabriele
Where will the aircraft be assembled, in the end? Have they confirmed the agreement with Italy for assembly of the jets in Cameri in exchange for italian F-135 engine maintenance in the Netherlands...? Very important point in terms of industrial returns, and very key argument in the political debate over the italian buy of F-35s. Would be bad if the deal was dropped.

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2015, 11:35
by joost
gabriele wrote:Where will the aircraft be assembled, in the end? Have they confirmed the agreement with Italy for assembly of the jets in Cameri in exchange for italian F-135 engine maintenance in the Netherlands...? Very important point in terms of industrial returns, and very key argument in the political debate over the italian buy of F-35s. Would be bad if the deal was dropped.


According to this article the F-35s will be assembled in Italy, indeed.

http://www.f35.nl/jsf-nieuws/economie-w ... en-italie/

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2015, 11:47
by gabriele
joost wrote:
gabriele wrote:Where will the aircraft be assembled, in the end? Have they confirmed the agreement with Italy for assembly of the jets in Cameri in exchange for italian F-135 engine maintenance in the Netherlands...? Very important point in terms of industrial returns, and very key argument in the political debate over the italian buy of F-35s. Would be bad if the deal was dropped.


According to this article the F-35s will be assembled in Italy, indeed.

http://www.f35.nl/jsf-nieuws/economie-w ... en-italie/


Yes, but it is a july 2014 article, old stuff. In more recent times the italian minister has said there isn't yet a formal deal for that. It is very important to get a confirmation.

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2015, 13:46
by joost
There is a letter dated 4 Sept 2014 form the MoD to the parliament on media reactions in which the intention still stands to build the F-35 in Italy.

Please provide your source that the plans might have changed. Nothing indicates there is a change of plans, so please provide your info. Btw: I can imagine an agreement only makes sense after first deciding to purchase the aircraaft. Since this happened only yesterday, I am sure the production deal will be worked on as well soon enough.

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2015, 14:22
by vilters
Assembly in Italy???
Will they NEVER learn???

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2015, 15:11
by joost
vilters wrote:Assembly in Italy???
Will they NEVER learn???


Blablablabla. The FACO is identical to the fort Worth plant (only smaller). In the past F-16s were produced at Fokker for some coutries in the Netherlands. Quality is controlled by LM of course.

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2015, 16:01
by gabriele
joost wrote:There is a letter dated 4 Sept 2014 form the MoD to the parliament on media reactions in which the intention still stands to build the F-35 in Italy.

Please provide your source that the plans might have changed. Nothing indicates there is a change of plans, so please provide your info. Btw: I can imagine an agreement only makes sense after first deciding to purchase the aircraaft. Since this happened only yesterday, I am sure the production deal will be worked on as well soon enough.


Italian press, reportedly having asked the italian Ministry of Defence.

Il 22 gennaio è arrivata la risposta: “Una decisione su dove i nostri caccia saranno costruiti non è ancora stata presa. Attualmente i ministeri della Difesa olandese e italiano”, prosegue la nota indirizzataci dal Ministerie van Defensie, “stanno lavorando alla fase finale di un agreement che chiarirà i loro futuri accordi bilaterali per la produzione e il sostegno logistico stabiliti nel Memorandum of Understatement firmato nel 2006”.

http://www.analisidifesa.it/2015/01/f-3 ... r-la-faco/

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2015, 16:20
by SpudmanWP
The first F-35 assembles at the Italian FACO will rollout soon.

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2015, 16:19
by maus92
Updating the post above:

Dutch parliament approves first F-35 production order
By: ANNO GRAVEMAKER | Flight Global

"The Dutch parliament has approved an order for the nation’s first production batch of eight Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning IIs, to be delivered in 2019.

“With this decision, we have reached the point of no return in the replacement of the [Lockheed] F-16,” said defence minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert on 26 February.

The Royal Netherlands Air Force is already operating two F-35As, which were acquired to enable the service to participate in US-led initial operational test and evaluation of the Joint Strike Fighter. In early February, these were moved from Eglin AFB in Florida to Edwards AFB in California.

From its next batch of eight F-35As, which will be assembled at Lockheed’s Fort Worth site in Texas, six will remain at a multinational pilot training centre in Luke AFB, Arizona until the end of the transition process in 2023. The two test aircraft now at Edwards AFB will also be relocated to Luke on the completion of the IOT&E activity.

Once the Dutch air force has completed its transition to the new type, five aircraft will remain in the USA for training and testing purposes. The rest of its fleet will be used to form three squadrons based in the Netherlands...."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... er-409673/

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2015, 16:20
by XanderCrews
maus92 wrote:Dutch parliament approves first F-35 production order
By: ANNO GRAVEMAKER | Flight Global

"The Dutch parliament has approved an order for the nation’s first production batch of eight Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning IIs, to be delivered in 2019.

“With this decision, we have reached the point of no return in the replacement of the [Lockheed] F-16,” said defence minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert on 26 February...."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... er-409673/


Thank you

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2015, 23:49
by gabriele
So it seems it is confirmed that assembly will be in Cameri, eventually. But only for 27 of the dutch F-35s.

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2015, 04:48
by Corsair1963
gabriele wrote:So it seems it is confirmed that assembly will be in Cameri, eventually. But only for 27 of the dutch F-35s.




I would say 27 out of 35 isn't a bad number of Italy. Which, will also get a lot of future work for the F-35 Program.

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2015, 16:51
by gabriele
The italian defence magazine RID reports that today there has been the formal signature of the implementation agreement: Italy to build 27 F-35A for the Netherlands. In exchange, Italy will send the F-135 engines of its F-35 fleet out to Woensdrecht for the maintenance.

A far cry from ancient hopes of assembling 85 jets for the Netherlands and 131 for Italy, but at least Cameri now getting more of an assured share of work. That will help the italian ministry of defence in fighting back the stiff opposition still surviving in the left-leaning parties.

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2015, 00:28
by spazsinbad
An interesting Dutch perspective on their F-35 use - particularly the training aspect from SLDinfo here:

http://www.slideshare.net/robbinlaird/k ... -aircraft/ (PDF 2.2Mb)
VIA:
Another Coalition Airpower Dynamic: Training for Next Generation Aircraft
29 Apr 2015 SLDinfo

"...At the Copenhagen Airpower Symposium held on April 17, 2015, Air Commodore Dré Kraak, from the Royal Netherlands Air Force, discussed the way ahead with regard to training for the Dutch Air Force and highlighted an important evolving coalition relationship with Italy.

Not only will Italy build the bulk of the Dutch F-35s, but they are emerging as a key partner in possible training solutions as well....

...He started his presentation by highlighting that the Dutch selection of the F-35 was a no brainer – It was by far the best aircraft in the competition. Without any doubt, without any doubt operationally F35 is the best airplane ever.

And anybody that chooses something else it’s probably a political choice and not a decision being made by a fighter pilot.

There’s no fighter pilot in the Dutch Air Force that does not think that the F35 is the best aircraft in the world at this moment.

The globality of the F-35 is important as well to the RNLAF. “We want a plane that can be maintained worldwide as we don’t know where our next operation will be.” And clearly, the Dutch intend to operate their F-35s in a coalition, and Air Commodore Dré Kraak emphasized that like the F-16, the F-35 has coalition enablement built in.

...But in a vein similar to that of John Blackburn, he highlighted the need for rethinking and innovation within the Dutch Air Force to leverage the F-35.

The Chief of the Dutch Air Force talks about Air Force 3.0 as the need to reshape our approaches and our thinking about how to operate in the future.

We are a small Air Force, 7500 people and 65 fighter pilots. Obviously, we have to innovate to get best value out of this force with our initial 37 F-35s.

The training side of the picture is rooted in part in the desire to have F-35s involved in operations and not being tagged for training. What a lot of people don’t understand is that if I have less aircraft I can train less pilots.

And it’s not about the aircraft, it’s about how many pilots can I use, how many pilots can I get trained. So, if I have less F35s, I need to find an alternative to make sure that I can train those 65 combat ready pilots good enough.

And this leads to either the acquisition of new trainer aircraft or participating in a joint training program.

According to the Air Commodore:
I’m looking very much to an aircraft that can be very easily used next to an F35; not exactly the F35 cockpit, but for instance the M-346 might be a good choice for the training missions.

Because the USAF will not have a new trainer until the next decade, and its cost undetermined, the Dutch need to look elsewhere. The program is simply too late for their needs.

He visited Italy last year with the Dutch Chief of Staff and they were very impressed with the M-346. ..."

Source: http://www.sldinfo.com/another-coalitio ... -aircraft/

FROM THE PDF: "...Pilot Lecce 24 April 2015
2 students; 1 IP “is the T-346 a suitable FLIT for the F-35”

“Can Lecce fulfill the RNLAF req for pilot trng” Modern a/c, Infra, WX, facilities, syllabus, flex, costs, airspace, closer to home…"


Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2015, 23:58
by spazsinbad
Dutch F-35 Pilots To Train on Italian M-346
11 May 2015 Tom Kington

"ROME — The Netherlands Air Force has struck a deal with Italy to send F-35 pilots to train in Italy on the AleniaAermacchi M-346 jet trainer, officials said on Monday.

Following an agreement signed between the air forces last week, the Netherlands will send an instructor and two student pilots to Italy's training base at Lecce in southern Italy to train on the M-346, AleniaAermacchi said.

The first group could be followed by other pilots, the firm said.

A spokesman for the Italian Air Force said the pilots arriving would be future F-35 pilots...."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /27112921/

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2015, 15:09
by bring_it_on
Some Strong words ;)


Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 04:35
by spazsinbad
Dutch sign deal to buy eight Joint Strike Fighter jets
26 Mar 2015 Janene Van Jaarsveldt

"The Netherlands has confirmed its decision to purchase eight F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighters that will arrive in the country in 2019, the Ministry of Defense announced today. The deal was signed in Washington DC last night.

“It is good that after 12 years of political debate there is now clarity about the successor of the F-16″, said Minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert of Defense. “This is the point of no return. The F-35 is the most modern fighter aircraft that can be used for various tasks. Several comparisons have shown that the device complies with the Dutch requirements. This unit is important for the entire armed forces. Men and women who are sent on mission, must have access to the best equipment. Air support is indispensable and the device’s good sensors will strongly improve the information position of troops on the ground.”

In 2013 the Netherlands decided to replace the F-16’s with F-35 Lightning II aircraft. The Netherlands intends to buy at least 37 of these devices. There has been a lot of controversy surrounding this deal, with questions asked about whether Defense’s plan with the JSF’s is feasible and Minister Hennis getting into trouble about price guarantees. Last month the D66 announced that they would be voting against the purchase as there are too many uncertainties surrounding the purchase. As a large majority already decided to vote for the purchase, the D66’s vote against had no affect."

Source: http://www.nltimes.nl/2015/03/26/dutch- ... hter-jets/

Joint Strike Fighter jet cost could rise by €550 million
16 Sep 2015 Janene Van Jaarsveldt

"The purchase of the Joint Strike Fighter jets may be more than half a billion euros more expensive than expected. According to the new estimates, the project will cost over 5.2 billion euros, 550 million euros more than the previous estimate. Higher sales tax adds another 75 million euros.

Minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert wrote this in the budget for her ministry for next year, the Telegraaf reports. The cause of the price increase is the “substantially higher” dollar exchange rate.

The Minister wrote that the budget will not yet be adapted for the new estimate. “This would require abrupt, drastic measures, while it is uncertain whether it will ultimately be needed”, Hennis wrote. “Also because the devises in several tranches over a period of years. Both changes in the dollar exchange rate and in the price (in dollars) will affect the estimates in the coming years.”

The Netherlands wants to buy a total of 37 JSF’s to replace the F-16’s. The government reached what Hennis calls “the point of no return” earlier this year when the contract was signed for the purchase of the first eight jets. The first jet will be delivered in 2019. The new jets should be fully implemented in 2024.

PHOTO: http://www.nltimes.nl/wp-content/upload ... 60x575.jpg

Source: http://www.nltimes.nl/2015/09/16/joint- ... 0-million/

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2015, 17:27
by maus92
The stronger dollar is increasing the cost for the Dutch F-35s, to the tune of about EUR500M. Seems as though they should be somewhat better insulated from USD spikes since Italy will be producing a good number of their airframes. Engines are still to be built in the US.

http://www.nltimes.nl/2015/09/16/joint- ... 0-million/

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2015, 19:01
by m
maus92 wrote:The stronger dollar is increasing the cost for the Dutch F-35s, to the tune of about EUR500M. Seems as though they should be somewhat better insulated from USD spikes since Italy will be producing a good number of their airframes. Engines are still to be built in the US.

http://www.nltimes.nl/2015/09/16/joint- ... 0-million/


Not exactly what the minster of Defence wrote. The Dollar/Euro goes up and down. This is a momentum in time: 2015-2024
Besides that, 10% of the budget is a reserve. Although the minster does not want to use the 10% reserve for compensation of a increasing dollar.

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2015, 19:03
by treebeard
The fact that Italy will be producing most if not all of our F-35s has little bearing on the fact the Dutch government will have to pay with US dollars rather than the euro.

For those interested in long reads, the exact 'F-35 progress report' may be found here: https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl ... 8-393.html (Dutch only I'm afraid.)

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2015, 19:26
by m
A more expensive Dutch F35 is also because of this


Department of Defense
(The Netherlands)
Progress report on project acquisition F-35
2015, Sept. 15

Page 41 - Compared to the state's previous annual reports, there has been an increase in the estimated cost of purchasing equipment. This is due to three changes.

First, a provisional sum is taken for the installation of a parachute in the Dutch aircraft. The brakechute system is currently in the final stages of development, so the actual price is not yet fixed.

The second change concerns the preparation of the aircraft for future capabilities already now be included in the production. This avoids costly adjustments in the future

The third change relates to the fact that the price advantage of an American Multi Year Buy - for which the JPO uses five percent - is now expected only from 2023, which was previously based on 2022. This is the estimated cost of delivering devices in 2022 five percent more expensive compared to the previous estimate (Google translate)

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2015, 19:29
by m
...

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2015, 06:18
by spazsinbad
ONLY the free part below - the rest - dunno.
Netherlands Preparing For F-35 Introduction
F-35 buy will quicken evolution of Netherlands air force, says commander
03 Dec 2015 Tony Osborne | Aviation Week & Space Technology

"With plans to purchase just 37 aircraft [how many would you like them to buy - are you going to chip in?], the Netherlands fleet of F-35 Joint Strike Fighters (JSF) is likely to be one of the world’s smallest. Yet the fighter’s introduction is seen as a catalyst for change, transforming not only the way the Netherlands thinks about airpower but also prompting cohesion, with bilateral and trilateral discussions with other European operators. “We need to be suitable to operate in a modern agile and ever-changing environment,” Gen...."

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/netherl ... troduction

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2015, 17:58
by spazsinbad
ANALYSIS: RNLAF urges for rapid defence development
05 Dec 2015 Beth Stevenson

"The Royal Netherlands Air Force (RNLAF) is in a phase of modernisation, accepting new rotorcraft and preparing for a new fighter and unmanned air vehicle....

...One programme 20 years in the making is the ­Lockheed Martin F-35, 37 frontline examples of which have been authorised for the RNLAF, with deliveries expected between 2019 and 2024.

“There is a comma behind the 37 – not a full-stop,” Schnitger notes. “It is very possible that the budget will allow us to buy more aircraft, and the price is steadily coming down.”

Weapons selections for the Dutch aircraft have still to be made, with optimisation of the air-to-air role to ensure it exceeds the performance offered by its current Lockheed F-16 fleet. As for air-to-surface weapons, Schnitger says the Raytheon Small Diameter Bomb has been performing very well on the F-16, and the Netherlands could look to adopt the new SDB II with its F-35As. Other F-16 weapons, such as the GBU-49 Paveway II and Boeing GBU-54 Joint Direct Attack Munition, could also be used, while world events indicate stand-off weapons also need to be considered.

Schnitger says the air force has done most of the planning ahead of the introduction of the F-35, with its first two examples – acquired to support US-led initial operational test and evaluation – currently in use at – Edwards AFB in California...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-419540/

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 08 Dec 2015, 14:36
by spazsinbad
Netherlands Preparing For F-35 Introduction [LONG ARTICLE - BEST READ AT SOURCE]
F-35 buy will quicken evolution of Netherlands air force, says commander
08 Dec 2015 Tony Osborne

"With plans to purchase just 37 aircraft, the Netherlands fleet of F-35 Joint Strike Fighters (JSF) is likely to be one of the world’s smallest.

Yet the fighter’s introduction is seen as a catalyst for change, transforming not only the way the Netherlands thinks about airpower but also prompting cohesion, with bilateral and trilateral discussions with other European operators.

“We need to be suitable to operate in a modern agile and ever-changing environment,” Gen. Alexander Schnitger, commander of the Royal Netherlands Air Force (RNLAF), tells Aviation Week.

He says the rapid pace of technological development, the changing security environment and the increasing role of cyber-technology and information has evolved the modern battlefield, and his air arm needs to reflect this.

The F-35 buy is just part of that evolution. “The trick is to build an air force around the ability to at least react proactively and engage in those areas,” says Schnitger.

Without such thinking, he adds, the force could “run the continuous risk of using the F-35 as simply a one-on-one replacement for the F-16 and to use it as bomb truck. But it [the F-35] can do so much more.”...

...Schnitger says that 37 aircraft was the maximum number acceptable to ministers at the time, but he expects the number to rise, albeit not in the short term.

“Behind the number 37, I tell my people, there is not a period, but a comma,” explains Schnitger. “The security situation in Europe is changing, [defense] budgets are recovering and every day we take a hard look at our [projected] needs five, 10, 20 years from now,” he adds.

The two operational aircraft are currently being flown out of Edwards AFB, California, where they form part of the joint U.S.-led JSF operational test team.

With the RNLAF planning for the F-35’s service entry in 2019, the Dutch team there has been accelerating testing with recent trials proving interoperability with the F-16, the KDC-10 refueling aircraft, navy vessels and joint tactical air controllers.

The F-16 and F-35 will be “operating side-by-side for quite a while,” says Col. Albert De Smit, commander of the RNLAF detachment at Edwards. Part of the testing has been to understand and develop tactics for fourth- and fifth-generation fighters to work together more effectively.

“Analysis on the exchange of information is far from complete,” adds De Smit. “But F-35 capabilities definitely enhance fourth-generation fighter effectiveness by providing increased situational awareness.”

“In Europe, for a long time to come, we will be working with this mix [of] fourth-, fifth- and even third-[generation] aircraft and dwindling numbers of airframes and weapons,” says Schnitger. “We have to make the most out of that construct.”

Schnitger says the Netherlands will have to make its transition to the F-35 at a “fast and furious” pace, as the RNLAF cannot afford to operate both the F-16 and F-35 for an extended period of time. Some of the F-16s have high airframe hours and sustainment issues....

...He points out that the pace of transition will allow the air force initial operating capability in 2020.

The air arm is also planning to deploy one of its F-35s, with support from an RNLAF Douglas KDC-10 tanker, to the Netherlands in the summer of 2016, to allow communities living near F-35 bases to experience the aircraft’s noise profile. The air arm will use the opportunity to take noise and vibration measurements to support F-35 operations from hardened aircraft shelters.

The same aircraft is also set to make the F-35’s international public debut at the air force’s Open Days at Leeuwarden in June....

...The F-35 procurement has opened up other, more immediate, concerns regarding pilot training as well. In order to get the most operational capability out of the F-35, the RNLAF is transitioning to a 2:1 ratio of pilots to aircraft from 1:1. But the current budgets do not stretch to giving all of those pilots the annual flying hours they need to be combat-ready.

Commanders are looking at a number of options, including the amount of training that can be performed in the simulator and use of a companion training aircraft, downloading F-35 training software to a type that is cheaper to operate.

They are also considering how well the current training in the U.S.—using the T-38 Talons of the Euro-NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training—will prepare pilots for the fifth-generation fighter, given that the next-generation T-X trainer will not be operational until 2023.

“Simulation will be a big part of the training program for the pilots,” says Schnitger. “Fighter pilots prefer to strap on a jet and not a simulator, but things are about to change, and they understand that. They are working with me to optimize what we have,” he adds...."

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/netherl ... troduction

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2019, 09:38
by joost
Yesterday during the Kings Speech ('Prinsjesdag' or princes-day, which is the annual speech of the Dutch King, every 3rd Tuesday of September) it was announced that The Netherlands will place a follow up order of 9 F-35A.
It was known for some time that the Dutch Government was aiming to order extra F-35s, to be added to the initial order of 37 aircraft, but yesterday it became official with the confirmation in the speech.

According to the article at the jump, the nine aircraft will be part of a 3rd squadron to be formed. A full strength squadron contains 15 aircraft. It needs to be decided where the new squadron will be based (Leeuwarden or Volkel AB).

My own addition: Further follow up orders can be expected, since The Netherland is ramping up its defence spendings. Initial plans in the press were for an extra 15 aircraft. Combined with the spokeman message that these 9 will be the start if a 3rd squadron, more orders (another 6 or so) can be expected in the near future.

But for now, the total number will be 46 for the Royal Dutch Air Force, up from the original 37.

Joost

https://www.lc.nl/friesland/leeuwarden/ ... ogle.nl%2F

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2019, 21:34
by botsing
Excellent news, and I hope they choose Volkel. :mrgreen:

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2019, 23:56
by Corsair1963
The Netherlands to buy nine more F-35s for $1.1 billion

By: Sebastian Sprenger  

Oct 8th, 2019


COLOGNE, Germany – The Dutch government on Tuesday announced plans to purchase nine more of Lockheed Martin's F-35 jets, a move that would bring the country's inventory to 46.


The envisioned €1 billion acquisition will “lay the foundation” for a third F-35 squadron in the Dutch air force, a plan that government officials first floated in late 2018, according to a statement posted on the defense ministry website.


The additional aircraft are expected contribute to the air force's objective of having four jets available for NATO missions while also performing homeland defense operations and accounting for training requirements and maintenance downtime.


Fully rounding out a third squadron would require 15 extra planes, however, alliance officials have previously told the Dutch, prompting talk in the Netherlands last year of a potentially higher number eventually.


The Dutch want the F-35 to replace their legacy fleet of F-16s. Neighbor Belgium selected the fifth-generation aircraft in the fall of 2018, announcing a planned buy of 34 copies.


Dick Zandee, a defense analyst at the Clingendael think tank in The Hague, told Defense News the announced acquisition of nine more F-35s enjoys “broad support” in the Dutch parliament. He said government leaders had already included the new aircraft spending in their annual report to NATO to show momentum in the country’s move toward spending 2 percent of gross domestic product on the military.


Government officials have told parliament that they want to give the American program office a formal notice to buy the additional jets before the end of the year, Zandee said. The Dutch want F-35s of the newest configuration, he added, which means any changes in the international delivery schedule caused by the recent Turkish expulsion from the F-35 program likely would play no role.

The Trump administration has kicked Turkey out of the program over the country’s purchase of the Russian S-400 air-defense system. American officials fear that co-locating the two systems could enable Russia to glean valuable intelligence about the planes simply by subjecting them to the S-400′s sensors.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... 1-billion/

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2019, 15:42
by mixelflick
As the price falls, they'll add to their order. As the feedback comes in from their pilots, they'll add to their order. As they see how it's a force multiplier (even just 37), they'll add to their order.

These countries aren't stupid, they know the stealth revolution is underway. I can't think of a single country that isn't trying to buy, develop or steal stealth fighters. Literally, not one. They (should have) seen this coming since 1991 with GWI, but still there were barriers to entry. Namely, cost. Now that the per unit price of an F-35 is lower than even 4th gen aircraft, only the cost per flight hour (already on the way down) and sanctions can stop it now.

When it's all over I predict LM will build 5,000+ F-35's, and quite possibly eclipse even the F-16 as an unrivaled success...

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 16:30
by joost
First F-35A (F-009) arrived home today, landing at Leeuwarden Air Base. This is the start of the build up of 3 F-35 squadrons for The Netherlands. :D

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 17:19
by notkent
[quote="mixelflick"
These countries aren't stupid, they know the stealth revolution is underway. I can't think of a single country that isn't trying to buy, develop or steal stealth fighters. Literally, not one. They (should have) seen this coming since 1991 with GWI, but still there were barriers to entry. Namely, cost. Now that the per unit price of an F-35 is lower than even 4th gen aircraft, only the cost per flight hour (already on the way down) and sanctions can stop it now.[/quote]

There are also huge advantages with so many countries operating the same aircraft type.

They will be able to share a common air picture across allies, reduce maintenance footprint and integrate seamlessly.

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 20:20
by krorvik
joost wrote:First F-35A (F-009) arrived home today, landing at Leeuwarden Air Base. This is the start of the build up of 3 F-35 squadrons for The Netherlands. :D


Congratulations to our brothers and sisters a bit further south! :D

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 20:50
by spazsinbad
https://www.pprune.org/military-aviatio ... st10607758 "Leeuwarden fireman selects foam rather than water to welcome Hollands first F-35" https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org ... f82af4.jpg

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 20:58
by krorvik
Someone is singlehandedly buying all the beers tonight. Brakes on the thing work really well, you can see him full stop here:

https://twitter.com/MinBijleveld/status ... 9058569217

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 20:59
by pron
I suspect this Leeuwarden fireman who selected foam and not water to welcome Hollands first F-35 will not get a bonus. :D
Look at this video at 1:53.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQoQ6YlJrdg

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 21:09
by spazsinbad
I'll assume the foam was NON-CORROSIVE? Big issue in US and Australia about 'old' TOXIC foam (older foam CORROSIVE).

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 23:01
by outlaw162
Someone is singlehandedly buying all the beers tonight.


"Bartender, there's a little too much foam on my heineken$." :doh:

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 01 Nov 2019, 11:19
by spazsinbad
Reading 'pprune' apparently there was an F-16 emergency before F-35 arrival with 'firies' forgetting to switch foam/water.

Afterwards an engine run with water to help clear the foam was made.

1 november 2019 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzTkLkycjpQ


Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 01 Nov 2019, 17:37
by ricnunes
spazsinbad wrote:
https://www.pprune.org/military-aviatio ... st10607758 "Leeuwarden fireman selects foam rather than water to welcome Hollands first F-35" https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org ... f82af4.jpg



LoL, Hilarious :mrgreen:

They could have "saved face" by putting some bikini girls scrubbing the foam out of the F-35 :mrgreen:

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 01 Nov 2019, 17:59
by krorvik
outlaw162 wrote:"Bartender, there's a little too much foam on my heineken$." :doh:


*chuckle* :mrgreen:

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 01 Nov 2019, 18:36
by spazsinbad
'The DRIVE[ing some insane]' has some comment about the 'foam event' which includes usual FUD Fear Uncertainty Doubt:
Whoops! First F-35A Based In The Netherlands Got A Foam Bath By Mistake
31 Oct 2019 Joseph Trevithick

"...It's not clear what this might mean for the aircraft, which ingested some of the foam into the engine intakes and the engine itself, as it taxied to the ceremony area after the impromptu foam party. Reports regarding past military aviation mishaps involving the accidental release of firefighting foam onto aircraft in hangars typically say that firefighting crews later used water to wash it away without any mention of serious lasting effects. Whether that applies to stealthy aircraft, such as the F-35, which have very sensitive external features, especially the specialized radar-absorbing coatings that cover their skin, is unclear...."

Source: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... by-mistake

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 02:25
by botsing
It seems that the foam used is suspect for causing corrosion, so this lovely new plane will now get a close inspection due to this unfortunate shower.

A nice quote however about the F-35 itself (roughly translated from Dutch to English):
"Holy cr*p! For a moment I felt like that teenager on a super cool skateboard in Florida. This plane moves like a rocket."

(“Holy cr*p! Even voel ik me die tiener op een heel vet skateboard in Florida. Dit toestel gaat als een raket.”)

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 02:37
by spazsinbad
botsing wrote:It seems that the foam used is suspect for causing corrosion, so this lovely new plane will now get a close inspection due to this unfortunate shower.
A nice quote however about the F-35 itself (roughly translated from Dutch to English):
"Holy cr*p! For a moment I felt like that teenager on a super cool skateboard in Florida. This plane moves like a rocket."
(“Holy cr*p! Even voel ik me die tiener op een heel vet skateboard in Florida. Dit toestel gaat als een raket.”)

Thanks - please keep us uptodate on any new developments about this 'F-35A corrosive foam event'.

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 06 Nov 2019, 11:20
by doge
Additional videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaDs9-Z3bew

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz2M-QTvJZQ


Star Wars Canyon RNLAF F-35
It's flying pretty very very fast between the valleys! :shock: (Scary! :doh: )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feMiVo15YBQ

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 06 Nov 2019, 13:33
by krorvik
spazsinbad wrote:Thanks - please keep us uptodate on any new developments about this 'F-35A corrosive foam event'.


Seems like they don't consider it a problem, according to tu.no:

"However, there is little cause for concern, according to input Technical Weekly has received from F-35 technicians. Neither aircraft nor engine is damaged by such a foam bath, but it needs a good wash and maybe clean. So is the F-16. This is not the first time a fighter plane has been foamed, it has also happened here in the country, but it costs only a little extra work."

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... t%2F478127

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 06 Nov 2019, 17:26
by spazsinbad
OK thanks. 'Good' foam must have been used rather than the 'old corrosive/toxic' foam. Good to know.

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 06 Nov 2019, 19:35
by jetblast16
Offline
Additional videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaDs9-Z3bew

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz2M-QTvJZQ


Star Wars Canyon RNLAF F-35
It's flying pretty very very fast between the valleys! :shock: (Scary! :doh: )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feMiVo15YBQ


Phenomenal! I think that's the fastest I've ever seen a jet pass through that canyon; crazy.

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 07 Nov 2019, 21:17
by spazsinbad
spazsinbad wrote:OK thanks. 'Good' foam must have been used rather than the 'old corrosive/toxic' foam. Good to know.

Latest news on how to get rid of the very bad side effects of the old 'toxic' foam - clues about old news in article:

The Defense Department May Have Found a Fix for Contaminated Water on Bases 07 Nov 2019 Oriana Pawlyk
https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... bases.html

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2019, 18:03
by krieger22
The RNLAF has stated to NOS that F-009 has been inspected and found to be unaffected by the foam

https://amp.nos.nl/artikel/2310447-defe ... ssion=true

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2019, 19:08
by spazsinbad
Thanks for the info: Translated by GOOGLE
Defense: F-35 does not seem to have had anything to do with a fire-fighting foam mistake
15 Nov 2019 NOS

"The new F-35 fighter plane that was accidentally received at the end of last month with fire-fighting foam instead of water, seems to have suffered no damage. That is what the Royal Netherlands Air Force says after an inspection of the aircraft.

On October 31, the first F-35 in the Netherlands was sprayed by human error with fire-fighting foam at Leeuwarden air base. "In the fire extinguishers the buttons for foam and water are next to each other, and the fire brigade accidentally pressed the foam button," says an air force spokesperson.

It was feared that the engines of the F-35, also known as the Joint Strike Fighter, had been damaged. That is why photos were sent to the builders of the aircraft. "You can compare it to a viewing operation on the inside," says the spokesperson.

The images were then sent to engine builder Pratt & Whitney. "We have the doctors in-house, but the professors are with Pratt & Whitney," said the Air Force spokesperson. "They indicated that the foam did not cause any malfunctions."

For safety's sake, however, the engines are thoroughly rinsed again. The F-35 will remain on the ground for the time being, but that is according to plan. It is intended that the aircraft will be operational again soon.

Source: https://amp.nos.nl/artikel/2310447-defe ... chuim.html

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 15 Nov 2019, 13:23
by mixelflick
A nice quote however about the F-35 itself (roughly translated from Dutch to English):
[quote]"Holy cr*p! For a moment I felt like that teenager on a super cool skateboard in Florida. This plane moves like a rocket."

This is all the moreso impressive, if this guy is coming from flying an F-16!

Re: Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

Unread postPosted: 15 Nov 2019, 16:06
by ricnunes
mixelflick wrote:A nice quote however about the F-35 itself (roughly translated from Dutch to English):
"Holy cr*p! For a moment I felt like that teenager on a super cool skateboard in Florida. This plane moves like a rocket."

This is all the moreso impressive, if this guy is coming from flying an F-16!


Absolutely! :thumb:

This was actually one of my point on the Rafale thread:
- When I read that I pilot coming from a Super Etendard says that he feels that the Rafale is like a rocket/spaceship/whatever that doesn't impress me much (independently if the Rafale has an impressive performance) because compared to the Super Etendard there are countless rocket-like fighter aircraft out there. But a pilot coming from a F-16 saying that the F-35 is like a rocket it's actually very impressive and certainly gets my attention since the F-16 is one and still one of worlds best fighter aircraft when it comes to acceleration (which afterall is the "metric" that is being mentioned here).