Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

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XanderCrews

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 18:40

lbk000 wrote:
pushoksti wrote:The majority of Canadians still see massive military purchases not a priority. Being next to the world’s largest Air Force and separated by two oceans from our enemies doesn’t help convince Canadians we need a military at all. Most of them would be happy to disband it for good and focus on local issues. Support is a mile wide and an inch deep.

America's nominal allies have all become bloodsucking liabilities.

Canada not buying the F-35 is a good thing, they'd probably sooner leak them over to the Chinese anyways.


"America garrisons not rebellious colonies but sovereign allies, so they can spend their tax revenues on luxuriant welfare programs rather than tanks and aircraft carriers and thereby exacerbate further the differences between America and the rest of the free world." --Mark Steyn, Canadian.
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sferrin

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 19:28

XanderCrews wrote:
pushoksti wrote:Wow Xandercrews, please show me on the doll where the Gripen touched you.


its overrated and attracts the most ignorant of fans. if we actually spoke about it for what it was, it wouldn't be a problem, but instead its uber-fighter extradonaire that also somehow costs pennies on the dollar. on one hand its a humble "almost as good, but costs less" fighter and on the other its "6th generation F-22-dominating wunderbird"


Let's not forget who first declared the Gripen 6th gen. :lol: (He seems to have gone all quiet on the F-35. Who could have seen that coming? :wink: )
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XanderCrews

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 20:15

sferrin wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
pushoksti wrote:Wow Xandercrews, please show me on the doll where the Gripen touched you.


its overrated and attracts the most ignorant of fans. if we actually spoke about it for what it was, it wouldn't be a problem, but instead its uber-fighter extradonaire that also somehow costs pennies on the dollar. on one hand its a humble "almost as good, but costs less" fighter and on the other its "6th generation F-22-dominating wunderbird"


Let's not forget who first declared the Gripen 6th gen. :lol: (He seems to have gone all quiet on the F-35. Who could have seen that coming? :wink: )



Well he got bought by Northrop Grumman, so I don't think he will be saying anything at all.


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sferrin

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 21:06

Forgot about that. That's gotta sting. :lmao:
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optimist

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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 02:32

Let's not forget the scoop that the USAF were buying Gripens for trainers. They were fun times.
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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 04:46

lbk000 wrote:
pushoksti wrote:The majority of Canadians still see massive military purchases not a priority. Being next to the world’s largest Air Force and separated by two oceans from our enemies doesn’t help convince Canadians we need a military at all. Most of them would be happy to disband it for good and focus on local issues. Support is a mile wide and an inch deep.

America's nominal allies have all become bloodsucking liabilities.

Canada not buying the F-35 is a good thing, they'd probably sooner leak them over to the Chinese anyways.


America’s allies are more concerned with providing healthcare to their own people, rather than spending trillions in killing poor ones in the desert.
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steve2267

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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 04:56

pushoksti wrote:America’s allies are more concerned with providing healthcare to their own people, rather than spending trillions in killing poor ones in the desert.


Thanks for flying your true colors.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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sferrin

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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 11:06

pushoksti wrote:America’s allies are more concerned with providing healthcare to their own people, rather than spending trillions in killing poor ones in the desert.


Thanks for admitting you're parasites.
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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 12:31

pushoksti wrote:
lbk000 wrote:
pushoksti wrote:The majority of Canadians still see massive military purchases not a priority. Being next to the world’s largest Air Force and separated by two oceans from our enemies doesn’t help convince Canadians we need a military at all. Most of them would be happy to disband it for good and focus on local issues. Support is a mile wide and an inch deep.

America's nominal allies have all become bloodsucking liabilities.

Canada not buying the F-35 is a good thing, they'd probably sooner leak them over to the Chinese anyways.


America’s allies are more concerned with providing healthcare to their own people, rather than spending trillions in killing poor ones in the desert.


And these allies with healthcare.... what does that matter if they're over-run by foreign armies? Or their citizens (with healthcare) bombed day and night? Or because of the cost of socialized medicine these allies don't enforce their borders/immigration policy and are over-run by illegals?

If you can't defend your citizens, it won't matter how good their healthcare is. They could have Sanders "free" healthcare and it would all be for naught once the country is over-run by illegals and/or foreign invaders.

Won't happen you say?

Ask Poland about their experiences with that. Or France. Or Russia, or... the list goes on and on. Epic failure..
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optimist

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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 14:13

Just to keep a bit of reality in the conversation
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/public ... -flaws-and
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ricnunes

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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 15:08

pushoksti wrote:Wow Xandercrews, please show me on the doll where the Gripen touched you.


I do get Xandercrews stance regarding the Gripen (namely the E) as it's also my and personal stance and why?
Because everything about the Gripen E from performance (such as range), payload and cost is basically a LIE!
So I would actually say:
- What's not to "hate" regarding the Gripen E??
This as opposed to the usual stance of "love towards the Gripen" exhibited over the web (and not only).

pushoksti wrote:WRT the F35 and Canada, the position we are in now with the Australian hornets, and not F35s is exactly where we should be. To think that we would buy them sole-sourced 10 years ago would be delusional.


No, that would NOT be delusional!
The Brits decided to sole-source purchase the F-35 in 2006 (13 years ago).
Italy did the same in 2008 (11 years ago).
The Netherlands also did the same in 2008 and this included TWO (2) TEST AIRCRAFT.
And this list, goes on and on and on... (like the Duracell Rabbit commercial of old times)

Delusional was the Canadian government decision (first the Conservatives and then moron Trudeau&TheLiberals afterwards) NOT to sole-source the F-35, a project that Canada participates on and is actually a "national job program" (more on that below).

pushoksti wrote:Canada likes to jerk around military purchases and turn them into national job programs. If Bombardier turned one of their biz jets into a missile and bomb truck you can guarantee that we would buy it. We will buy the F35, that’s almost certain, nothing else out there makes any logical sense.


Then one more reason for Canada to purchase (and sole source) the F-35 don't you think?!

The F-35 program gave back to the Canadian economy so far a total of $1.5 billion USD which includes work on 110 Canadian companies (which means thousands of jobs worth)!

Here:
https://www.f35.com/global/participation/canada

If the F-35 program isn't a "national job program" for Canada then I wonder what else would be... :roll:


pushoksti wrote:The majority of Canadians still see massive military purchases not a priority. Being next to the world’s largest Air Force and separated by two oceans from our enemies doesn’t help convince Canadians we need a military at all. Most of them would be happy to disband it for good and focus on local issues. Support is a mile wide and an inch deep.


I've seen that argument over and over again, repeated year after year. At first glance I would say that I could agree with you but taking a second more in-depth look, I'm not so sure. For instance:
- In 1993 the EH-101 program to replace the old (even at the time) Sea King Maritime Helicopters was a major discussion topic in the Federal Elections that took place during that year.
- Paul Martin's government's in the first half of the 2000 decade also suffered quite considerably due again to the Sea King replacement program.
- A very big number of Canadians put Canadian Flags at their doorstep during Remembrance Day.
- A stretch of Ontario's highway 401 from Trenton to Toronto is named the "Highway of Heroes" in recognition to the Canadians that died in the Afghan war.
- etc, etc, etc...

So these are a few (among many) examples that perhaps indicate that the subject of defense isn't ignored by a big number of Canadians as you seem to imply.
In the best (or worse) case scenario I would say that the interest of the average Canadian is about the same as for example the same interest by the average British or Dutch people.
Or, if you think that for example the average Brit or Dutch has more interest in matters of defense then the average Canadian then I have a few bridges to sell you! :wink:

Moreover, when we look at the election promises during federal elections and what they execute later on and this between the two parties that shared the federal government so far (the Liberals and Conservatives) then I would say that it's in defense procurement that these parties diverse the most.
For example when it comes to Public Health (and here I diverge with my American friends - this must be "free and universal" but here I digress) and other more pressing issues if you will such as Education, you'll see that the diferences between the Liberals and Conservatives aren't that much, if any (despite what they might say).

At the same, Canada has one of the best public services in the world but one of the worst military procurement in the world and so, how is this possible?

- Because public services in general do NOT get political interference while military procurement in Canada is all about political interference!

That's the reason why military procurement in Canada is such a Cluster F**k! The rest is just smokescreen...

And as such, I tend to disagree with you when you hint that major military procurement programs are a "secondary issue" in Canada.


pushoksti wrote:Having worked on our Hornets for over a decade, i can tell you that mechanically, they will do just fine until our replacement arrives. Operational capability aside, they are in far better shape than the Marine and Navy hornets were. I saw the state of the hornets in Miramar, side by side with ours, they looked to be clinging onto life. We flew 55+ lines a day with 24 aircraft for 5 weeks straight with half the amount of people. We know how to string every last drop out of our jets without compromising capability or safety.


Well, I don't know about that but I would say that the current state of the Canadian CF-18 fleet can't be that good or else the RCAF wouldn't be ordering used Australian Hornets, would it?
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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sferrin

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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 15:17

optimist wrote:Just to keep a bit of reality in the conversation
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/public ... -flaws-and
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You forgot the most important part:

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Oh, and the US doesn't have VAT taxes either. You can keep your expensive, Utopias.
Last edited by sferrin on 18 Oct 2019, 15:23, edited 1 time in total.
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ricnunes

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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 15:23

sferrin wrote:Oh, and the US doesn't have VAT taxes either.


It has Sales taxes which are the exact same thing as VAT
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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sferrin

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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 15:24

ricnunes wrote:
sferrin wrote:Oh, and the US doesn't have VAT taxes either.


It has Sales taxes which are the exact same thing as VAT


No it isn't. Sales tax is chump change compared to the average VAT tax. (And not all states have sales tax anyway.)

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XanderCrews

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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 16:27

pushoksti wrote:America’s allies are more concerned with providing healthcare to their own people, rather than spending trillions in killing poor ones in the desert.


Not the only thing the US Military does...


Thank you for making my point perfectly. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Last edited by XanderCrews on 18 Oct 2019, 16:38, edited 1 time in total.
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