Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

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ricnunes

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Unread post24 Jul 2019, 09:28

More about the subject:

OTTAWA — Canada has formally asked four companies to submit bids to supply a new fleet of state-of-the-art fighter jets, the latest step in the country’s almost decade-long quest to upgrade its air force.

The federal department responsible for procurement said Tuesday that Saab, Airbus, Lockheed Martin and Boeing have until next spring to present initial proposals to provide 88 advanced fighters for the Royal Canadian Air Force.

The jets — part of a procurement package worth about $19 billion — are to replace the country’s aging CF-18s, which have been in service for more than 35 years.

A winning bidder will be chosen in 2022, with the first plane scheduled to arrive “as early as 2025,” the government said.

“This is the most significant investment in the Royal Canadian Air Force in more than 30 years,” said a statement by Public Services and Procurement Canada. “With it, the government will deliver the aircraft that meet Canada’s needs, while ensuring good value for Canadians.”

Canada’s efforts to buy new fighter jets have crawled along for close to a decade.

The previous Conservative government announced in 2010 it would buy 65 F-35s, which are built by Lockheed Martin, without a competition, The first one was to be delivered in 2015.

The Conservatives later backed off their plan over concerns about the price and the Defence Department’s tactics in getting government approval for the deal.

During the 2015 federal election campaign, Justin Trudeau’s Liberals vowed to launch a competition immediately to replace the CF-18s — but not to buy the F-35. The Trudeau government, which replaced the Conservatives in 2015, later said the Lockheed Martin would be allowed to compete for the contract with its F-35 after all.

The Liberals launched the current procurement in 2016 and have been working on the details ever since.

Until the new jets arrive, the Liberal government has announced plans to upgrade Canada’s CF-18s. It has also signed a contract to buy 18 second-hand jets from Australia, a deal that officials have pegged at around $500 million.

Conservative MP James Bezan, the party’s critic for defence, criticized the Liberal government for delays in replacing the fighter jets. Other countries, he said in a statement Tuesday, chose their new jets in under two years.

“It is inexcusable that Justin Trudeau spent the past four years dithering on the fighter-jet file,” Bezan said.

He added, without providing details about how this would work, that if the Conservatives win October’s federal election they will “immediately select a new fighter jet through a fair and transparent competition.”

The F-35 will be up against Airbus’s Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab’s Gripen and Boeing’s Super Hornet. French company Dassault pulled its Rafale from contention late last year.

The big-ticket purchase is expected to provide a boost to the country’s economy.

On Tuesday, the government said the investment will provide decades of support to Canada’s aerospace and defence industries.

The government points out the bidders will have to show they have plans to invest as much in economic benefits for Canada as the eventual contract is worth.

The proposals will be evaluated on technical merit (60 per cent), cost (20 per cent) and economic benefits (20 per cent), the statement said.

The suppliers have until this fall to demonstrate that they can meet requirements for security and interoperability with allied countries’ forces, and until spring 2020 to make what the government calls “initial proposals.”



Source: https://ottawacitizen.com/pmn/news-pmn/ ... 11b2bf49a7


Too me it looks like the F-35 will/should be at the advantage (and not the otherwise).

Anyway, the proposals deadline is supposed to be next Spring so this again, seems clearly a stalling tactic from JT's government to postpone the decision to the next term/government.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post24 Jul 2019, 09:35

:roll: Is this 'winna winna chicken dinna?': "...winning bidder will be chosen in 2022, with the first plane scheduled to arrive “as early as 2025,” the government said..." AS IF AS EARLY AS - IS IT TOO SOON? I KNOW.... :roll: Beached AZ. Beached IS.

Beached Az: The Koalas. Series 2, Ep 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR93mxPxy7c

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mixelflick

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Unread post24 Jul 2019, 10:00

I'm quite certain the analysis done in this thread exceeds anything Canada is going to do in its evaluation.

Someone should forward it to Trudeau.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post24 Jul 2019, 10:09

Trudeau is just pushing out the decision until after he leaves office. Honestly, shameful.....what about the Canadian Taxpayer and Warfigther??? :shock:
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ricnunes

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Unread post24 Jul 2019, 10:27

mixelflick wrote:I'm quite certain the analysis done in this thread exceeds anything Canada is going to do in its evaluation.


LoL! Yeah that would most likely be correct :mrgreen:

mixelflick wrote:Someone should forward it to Trudeau.


That would be useless since in order to understand our analysis here, someone would need to have a minimum IQ requirement, something that I'm sure, Justin Trudeau doesn't have.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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ricnunes

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Unread post24 Jul 2019, 10:37

Corsair1963 wrote:Trudeau is just pushing out the decision until after he leaves office. Honestly, shameful.....what about the Canadian Taxpayer and Warfigther??? :shock:


Like I've been mentioning several times over here, that would unfortunately (or I would even say fortunately, instead) be the truth behind all this cluster f**k which is the Canadian fighter procurement!

Anyway, here in Portugal there's a saying which translated to English would be something like "There's a good side in bad things" or "there are bad things which are actually good" or something along those lines.
Related to the Canadian fighter procurement this "cluster f**k" may actually be a good thing since if this current government already chose a fighter aircraft then it would likely have chosen anything which wasn't the F-35! Actually that "interim Super Hornet" plan was IMO an attempt in that regard.
The fact that the Canadian fighter aircraft procurement is being postponed to the next term seems IMO to be in itself an indication that the F-35 is/will be the select aircraft as the Canadian future fighter aircraft. As someone already mentioned here (Optimist, if I'm not mistaken), if Canada was to select a fighter aircraft which wasn't or isn't the F-35 then it would likely and already have done it by now...
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post24 Jul 2019, 10:42

You may have a point....(i.e. silver lining) :D
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ricnunes

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Unread post24 Jul 2019, 12:01

Corsair1963 wrote:You may have a point....(i.e. silver lining) :D


Yes, that's it! That's the actual English term/translation (although in Portuguese this is a saying while in English it's an expression) but that's it: "Silver lining"!
Thanks for pointing me out the correct term :thumb:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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doge

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Unread post10 Aug 2019, 09:52

8)
https://www.skiesmag.com/news/lockheed- ... abilities/
Lockheed Martin highlights F-35 capabilities
Posted on August 1, 2019 by Chris Thatcher
The F-35A Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter might be the youngest fighter aircraft in the competition to replace the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) fleet of CF-188 Hornets, but manufacturer Lockheed Martin insists it is a mature plane.

In a background briefing to Canadian media on July 30, officials with the company highlighted the F-35’s fifth-generation capabilities, longer-term modernization program, and industrial opportunities for Canadian suppliers as it prepares its response to the government’s request for proposals (RFP), released on July 23.

But officials were keen to dispel any lingering myth that the F-35 is still an expensive and unproven fighter.

Though production of the Joint Strike Fighter is still ramping up, over 400 jets have been produced and seven services have declared initial operating capability, including the United States Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps and Royal Air Force. Ninety-one aircraft were delivered in 2018 and 135 more are expected to be in the hands of customers in 2019.

Lockheed Martin anticipates over 860 F-35 variants will be operating from almost 30 bases by 2022, the timeframe Canada is expected to reach a decision and award a contract for 88 fighters to replace the Hornets.

Increasingly, the F-35 is being deployed on operations. United Kingdom F-35B Lightning aircraft conducted their first missions over Syria and Iraq during a deployment to Cyprus in May and June, and the U.S. Air Force confirmed two aircraft struck an ISIS tunnel network and weapons cache in Iraq on April 30.

It’s unclear whether the fighter has been deployed yet in a NORAD response, one of the primary missions of the RCAF fleet and an integral part of both Canadian and U.S. defence.

As more aircraft have entered service, the costs per aircraft and per flight hour have dropped. Lockheed Martin officials highlighted a 60 per cent reduction in the unit fly away cost from LRIP 2 (Low Rate Initial Production) in 2008 to LRIP 10 in 2016, and emphasized a further reduction of about 15 per cent over the next few years as the company strives to drive the unit cost well below US$80 million, a target it set with the U.S. government and is expected to reach with LRIP 13 this year.

It’s also aiming for a cost of US$25,000 per flight hour by 2025, a reduction of almost $10,000 from the current rate of what officials said was in the mid $30,000s.

As acquisition costs decline, Lockheed Martin is now “also going to focus on the operation and sustainment of the planes over time,” said an official, by increasing the mission capable rate to 80 per cent through improvements to maintenance systems and supply availability.

While cost will be a significant factor in Canada’s assessment of the fighters — 20 per cent of the evaluation — capability will account for 60 per cent. And here, Lockheed Martin believes it has the most advanced and capable aircraft.

“We believe [the F-35] truly is the most advanced fighter on the planet,” said one official during the briefing.

In addition to very low observable stealth, a feature the company has repeatedly insisted must be designed in from beginning, not managed after the fact through a reduction in the aircraft’s signature, the F-35 features a fusion of sensor capability and situational awareness “that is simply unparalleled.”

It can carry up to 18,000 pounds of ordnance to meet its core missions of strategic attack, close air support, suppression/destruction of enemy air defence, and air superiority, and also features an electronic warfare suite of capabilities that remain largely classified.

Lockheed Martin is also proposing a modernization program of upgrades, some of which could be available for a Canadian variant, including an automatic ground collision avoidance system, external fuel tanks to extend the range of the fighter, and increased weapons capacity in the weapons bay that would allow the aircraft to carry six rather than four missiles internally.

Other block upgrades could include integration of new weapons, including hypersonic missiles, enhancements to the open system architecture which would further enhance situational awareness, among other things, and the ability to team with and command unmanned aircraft.

“Countries like Canada can buy a fifth-generation airplane, and the capability that comes with that, at or about or below the same unit costs as a fourth-generation airplane, and then operate and sustain it for again about the same costs as a fourth-generation airplane,” said an official. “We think that puts us in a favourable position in Canada’s competition.”

Lockheed Martin is also hoping the government will see the value of a 3,000 to 4,000 aircraft production run as it assesses the economic benefit of the F-35 to Canada. Under the rules of the F-35 partnership agreement, Lockheed Martin cannot offer traditional offsets to potential customers, what Canada calls industrial and technological benefits (ITBs). But its “best value” approach for components means suppliers provide parts for the entire global fleet, not just the aircraft being manufactured and supported by their own country.

At present, 71 Canadian first and second tier companies, from Magellan Aerospace to Héroux-Devtek, Stelia Aerospace and Honeywell, are providing components to the program. Lockheed Martin officials noted the real enduring opportunities could come in sustaining the global fleet.

“Canada is well positioned because it is co-located with the biggest fleet of F-35s in North America. As we build up sustainment capability in Canada to sustain your aircraft, that will inherently be an opportunity to support the F-35s in North America collectively,” said one official.

That could include establishing a Canadian supplier as the focal point for maintenance, much in the way Lockheed Martin has named Cascade Aerospace, part of the IMP Group, as a global C-130J heavy maintenance centre.

“We’ll definitely have a sustainment integration task inside Canada that can bring best value to the RCAF,” said the official.
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Unread post30 Aug 2019, 16:41

Rafael out.

Now the Eurofighter is goners as well.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/ ... plaints-2/
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ricnunes

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Unread post30 Aug 2019, 18:40

luke_sandoz wrote:Rafael out.

Now the Eurofighter is goners as well.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/ ... plaints-2/


LOL, yeah! :mrgreen:

Now I'm just waiting for Saab to do the same :wink:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post30 Aug 2019, 22:43

If SAAB has any common sense they will realize their toy plane doesn’t meet the requirements and have any hope in hell of winning.
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ricnunes

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Unread post31 Aug 2019, 00:42

luke_sandoz wrote:If SAAB has any common sense they will realize their toy plane doesn’t meet the requirements and have any hope in hell of winning.


DITTO!
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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magitsu

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Unread post31 Aug 2019, 13:42

They might be delaying it to stay strong in the Finnish competition. Their Swiss-like tests are due to start next spring.
If Gripen took an exit now, almost immediately after getting booted out of Switzerland it could appear ominous. Luckily after two other Euros have already left, they should be able to do so too while keeping their head high.

Nothing except more loss of money is to be gained from the Canadian competition itself. It's certainly convenient for the Canadian competition runners for them to continue, but Gripen for Canada is a lame duck at this point.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post02 Sep 2019, 21:30

magitsu wrote:They might be delaying it to stay strong in the Finnish competition. Their Swiss-like tests are due to start next spring.
If Gripen took an exit now, almost immediately after getting booted out of Switzerland it could appear ominous. Luckily after two other Euros have already left, they should be able to do so too while keeping their head high.

Nothing except more loss of money is to be gained from the Canadian competition itself. It's certainly convenient for the Canadian competition runners for them to continue, but Gripen for Canada is a lame duck at this point.



For a company that prides itself on smart economics, they're more than happy to waste money in dubious longshots.

(not that I'm complaining, but it certainly is funny)

lipovitand wrote:LOL, all the salt at BF4C :mrgreen:

This is just a waste of time and resources running this comp..jsut get the F35 FFS


I guess I need to get over there and mine some salt, but anyone who listened knew it was going to be American option A, American option B.
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