Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

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spazsinbad

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Unread post17 Jul 2019, 08:01

Corsair1963 wrote:The public perception of the F-35 in Canada. Is very similar to Australia just a few years back. Yet, today the RAAF is proudly flying the F-35A and very happy with it.

You are way off about the public in Australia - sure there were naysayers - however generally the government & the RAAF were able to make their case, & have it reported OK, despite negative media/naysayers such as APA & EricFacePalmer.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post17 Jul 2019, 08:27

spazsinbad wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:The public perception of the F-35 in Canada. Is very similar to Australia just a few years back. Yet, today the RAAF is proudly flying the F-35A and very happy with it.

You are way off about the public in Australia - sure there were naysayers - however generally the government & the RAAF were able to make their case, & have it reported OK, despite negative media/naysayers such as APA & EricFacePalmer.



Well, you clearly know more than I would on the subject. Yet, my general perception was the Australian Public had a negative opinion of the F-35. Of course that was because of like you said the Media and Naysayers!
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Unread post17 Jul 2019, 08:55

Have you forgotten the wonderful 'parliamentary inquiries' where APA & sundries were put in their place? Rightly or wrongly Australian media 'try' to present 'two sides' which unfortunately gave APA and the like too much undeserved oxygen. Also that served the purpose of gaining 'negative headlines' for clicks & readers. IF the perception of the F-35 was negative, according to those in power, why was not the Oz buy terminated? NoWayJose. Both sides of parliament made noises but they have always supported the buy, just quibbled about irrelevancies mostly and supporting half-hearted enquiries - because 'that is politics'. Australia does not have NUMnut Pollies; unlike some countries. However they do play politics pretty hard - regard the knifing of Prime Ministers over the last decade on both sides. And the F-35 sails onward.

Only perhaps at the start of the F-35 Oz participation was there some ex-RAAF bigwig noise. Mostly it was about how the F-35 was selected plus idiots claiming the Shornet was a SUPAdog for example. Those nitwits have gone away. The RAAF - the ones who matter - the ones with THE KNOWLEDGE - have always been happy & our budget for the F-35 always good.
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Unread post17 Jul 2019, 14:48

Corsair1963 wrote:The public perception of the F-35 in Canada. Is very similar to Australia just a few years back. Yet, today the RAAF is proudly flying the F-35A and very happy with it.



Its not the same at all I'm afraid. The Australian government never waivered in its official support and then placed actual orders complete with real money to do what we call "buy" the aircraft.

Canada its seems as a scandal. Canada has waivering governments (note the plural) there's not really a more dysfunctional or indecisive F-35 partner out there. And before we mention Turkey, the issue with them is that they're buying it, not that they are refusing to buy it

Australia had a vocal minority, that was probably the most vocal to be sure, but their real effect was nil. Canada has had actual official government backed drama.
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Unread post17 Jul 2019, 20:55

XanderCrews wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:The public perception of the F-35 in Canada. Is very similar to Australia just a few years back. Yet, today the RAAF is proudly flying the F-35A and very happy with it.



Its not the same at all I'm afraid. The Australian government never waivered in its official support and then placed actual orders complete with real money to do what we call "buy" the aircraft.

Canada its seems as a scandal. Canada has waivering governments (note the plural) there's not really a more dysfunctional or indecisive F-35 partner out there. And before we mention Turkey, the issue with them is that they're buying it, not that they are refusing to buy it

Australia had a vocal minority, that was probably the most vocal to be sure, but their real effect was nil. Canada has had actual official government backed drama.



Nailed it.
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ricnunes

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Unread post18 Jul 2019, 09:35

XanderCrews wrote:Thats not the point though. hes not saying BF4C is influencing, hes saying its a reflection of the Canadian public. Having lurked there many times, Canadians have a completely different attitude thanks to the very limited and very specific kind of reports they hear on it thanks to Canadian Media.


That's not my perception. My perception is that the "reflection of the Canadian public" (the majority of it) about the subject (future Canadian fighter), is:
- I or We don't care! (which one will win)

Unfortunately the general Canadian public don't care about their military. As such and not only, BF4C is definitly not a "reflection of the Canadian public".

XanderCrews wrote:Its like theyre in their own little world, and it shows. again this isn't BF4C's fault. the conditioning has paid off very nicely. like my 65 million example there. No one in the states was ever being told Super Hornets were 65 million, and certainly not year after year. Theyre good little students, they regurgitate what theyre told, and even better attack anyone else that tries to tell them otherwise. knowledge, sources, experience, reason, facts, history are meaningless to them.


I have to disagree with you regarding the above.
BF4C is an "online platform" conceived to promote the Gripen E as Canada's future fighter aircraft and at the same time being anti-F-35 (probably because they conceive it as being the biggest threat to Gripen in Canada).

So they are BIASED. As such I'm don't believe for a second that they limit themselves to regurgitate what they're told! They (BF4C) regurgitate what best fits their narrative which is being Pro-Gripen E and Anti-F-35.
As an evidence of this is what you correctly mentioned in your post - The Super Hornet doesn't cost $65 Million and now that we are at it, neither does the other aircraft (Gripen E, Rafale, Typhoon, you name it...) cost what their respective companies claims - and this is well known even within the (biased) media. Yet, BF4C continues to refuse to acknowledge this.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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ricnunes

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Unread post18 Jul 2019, 09:46

Corsair1963 wrote:The public perception of the F-35 in Canada. Is very similar to Australia just a few years back. Yet, today the RAAF is proudly flying the F-35A and very happy with it.


They are diferences of course but in general I would say that you are IMO absolutely right.

Moreover, in Italy there's currently a government that when was elected also promised to cancel the F-35! Yet when they reached the office they completely changed their stance regarding the F-35 (doesn't this kinda reminds/resembles the country starting with "Ca" and ending with "da" and with a "na" in the middle?) .

Yet, we could go on discussing the diferences and nuances between what happens in Canada and in the other countries or more precisely between each country but the fact is that IMO, what is happening in Canada also happened in many, if not most of other countries that purchased the F-35 and/or are JSF members (although again, with its diferences/nuances).
IMO, the biggest diference regarding the public/political perception/stance regarding the F-35 between Canada and the other countries is that the other countries already decided to buy the F-35 while Canada is yet to decide to buy it.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post18 Jul 2019, 09:56

ricnunes wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:The public perception of the F-35 in Canada. Is very similar to Australia just a few years back. Yet, today the RAAF is proudly flying the F-35A and very happy with it.


They are diferences of course but in general I would say that you are IMO absolutely right.

Moreover, in Italy there's currently a government that when was elected also promised to cancel the F-35! Yet when they reached the office they completely changed their stance regarding the F-35 (doesn't this kinda reminds/resembles the country starting with "Ca" and ending with "da" and with a "na" in the middle?) .

Yet, we could go on discussing the diferences and nuances between what happens in Canada and in the other countries or more precisely between each country but the fact is that IMO, what is happening in Canada also happened in many, if not most of other countries that purchased the F-35 and/or are JSF members (although again, with its diferences/nuances).
IMO, the biggest diference regarding the public/political perception/stance regarding the F-35 between Canada and the other countries is that the other countries already decided to buy the F-35 while Canada is yet to decide to buy it.


Actually, they did decide to buy it, then hold off and have a fighter competition, then not to buy it, back to holding another fighter competition......

:bang:
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Unread post18 Jul 2019, 09:57

Read my posts about Australia for a good overview which can be backed up by reading the Australian F-35A thread here:

TITLE says it all: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=23043 Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future
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charlielima223

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Unread post18 Jul 2019, 20:18

Let RCAF pilots and crews attend a Red Flag with their hand-me-down Hornets. Have them fly with F-35s and then have them fly against them. Let the Canadian media be there when not a single RCAF hornet survives against F-35 or F-22.
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Unread post18 Jul 2019, 20:36

Do the same but at Northern Edge.... it's closer :)
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jetblast16

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Unread post19 Jul 2019, 01:51

Lookin' sharp (Canada)

F-18_Boneyard.png
Have F110, Block 70, will travel
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ricnunes

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Unread post19 Jul 2019, 12:47

Corsair1963 wrote:
ricnunes wrote:They are diferences of course but in general I would say that you are IMO absolutely right.

Moreover, in Italy there's currently a government that when was elected also promised to cancel the F-35! Yet when they reached the office they completely changed their stance regarding the F-35 (doesn't this kinda reminds/resembles the country starting with "Ca" and ending with "da" and with a "na" in the middle?) .

Yet, we could go on discussing the diferences and nuances between what happens in Canada and in the other countries or more precisely between each country but the fact is that IMO, what is happening in Canada also happened in many, if not most of other countries that purchased the F-35 and/or are JSF members (although again, with its diferences/nuances).
IMO, the biggest diference regarding the public/political perception/stance regarding the F-35 between Canada and the other countries is that the other countries already decided to buy the F-35 while Canada is yet to decide to buy it.


Actually, they did decide to buy it, then hold off and have a fighter competition, then not to buy it, back to holding another fighter competition......

:bang:


Yes, you're correct of course.
However you should add the following somewhere in the middle of your narrative above:
- "then promised to get out of the JSF/F-35 program but this was reverted and Canada stayed as a JSF/F-35 partner" :wink:

Nevertheless, that situation above is not very dissimilar to what happened in Italy for instance.
For example in Italy they decided to buy it, then afterwards a new government was elected with the promise of cancelling the F-35 purchase and Italy's participation on the program, soon later it was decided to only buy a few F-35s (the ones that were contracted so far) and maintain Italy on the program and then reverting all of this back the full commitment to the F-35 purchase/program.

There are of course diferences between Canada and Italy but these seem to be due to:
1- When the Italian new government took the office the F-35 was already purchased (albeit a few) where in Canada no F-35's were still purchased when the new government took the office.
2- There's a F-35 factory (assembly line) in Italy and this changes/influences things quite a lot in terms of "speed" regarding a final decision to buy the F-35.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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ricnunes

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Unread post19 Jul 2019, 12:48

jetblast16 wrote:Lookin' sharp (Canada)

F-18_Boneyard.png


Don't show that to Justin Trudeau, he might want to buy that scrap/junk for the RCAF :bang:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post19 Jul 2019, 20:34

ricnunes wrote:
jetblast16 wrote:Lookin' sharp (Canada)

F-18_Boneyard.png


Don't show that to Justin Trudeau, he might want to buy that scrap/junk for the RCAF :bang:


If you tell that SJW cuck that the F-35 has multi-gender capability and is part of some minority group, he'll be all over the F-35 like stupid is on Rep Ocasio Cortez.
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