Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

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spazsinbad

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Unread post28 Jun 2019, 10:32

RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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citanon

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Unread post08 Jul 2019, 23:50

Airbus and Boeing threatening to quit:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cana ... SKCN1U32EX
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Jul 2019, 03:04

citanon wrote:Airbus and Boeing threatening to quit:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cana ... SKCN1U32EX



Of course they don't stay what was "unfair" to the public. :?
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spazsinbad

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Unread post09 Jul 2019, 03:31

It is Unfair that the F-35 is so good (I'm going down to the bottom of the garden to eat worms) so they STAMP their feets.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Jul 2019, 04:09

Airbus and Boeing are just hoping to get more favorable conditions in the competition. As they realize their odds of winning aren't so good....
:shock:
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Jul 2019, 07:10

The Canadian Fighter Competition is beginning to sound like the one in Belgium and we know how that turned out! :wink:


QUOTE:

Belgium’s decision finally brings an end to the winding tale of its Air Combat Capability Successor Program, which officially began in 2014 and originally called for a purchase of 40 aircraft. In 2017, Boeing and Saab had withdrawn their offers for the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Gripen E respectively.

Boeing complained that the competition was not “a truly level playing field” and Saab reportedly feared that the Belgian government's demands for significant support for the aircraft after purchase would violate Swedish neutrality. France’s Dassault had considered making a bid, but ultimately did not, though it did make an informal offer to purchase Rafale fighter jets.


https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... ghter-jets
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ricnunes

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Unread post09 Jul 2019, 10:34

citanon wrote:Airbus and Boeing threatening to quit:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cana ... SKCN1U32EX


What a wonderful news!
Boeing and Airbus, please do quit from the Canadian competition :wink:

And if it isn't asking too much, can I ask Saab to quit from the Canadian competition as well? Thanks in advance :mrgreen:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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gc

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Unread post09 Jul 2019, 12:20

Interesting when u have suppliers wanting to write requirements for buyers. Requesting to exclude the capability to conduct first strike operations.....Imagine a car dealer telling a buyer that his desire to buy a truck is unfairly excluding sedans from consideration.
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white_lightning35

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Unread post09 Jul 2019, 16:13

Quote from Reuters article:
At least one firm has expressed unhappiness that the requirements emphasize the ability to carry out first strikes on targets abroad, a strength of the F-35, said the sources.

God forbid a country that wants to buy warplanes would emphasize the ability to use them in a war. Should they instead emphasize the ability to look pretty at airshows and on brochures to make it a "level playing field"?
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hb_pencil

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Unread post09 Jul 2019, 18:50

Wow, Boeing and Airbus are really pulling out all the stops.

They're not the most likely to leave the program - they're trying to make sure that Lockheed does.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post10 Jul 2019, 04:02

Boeing reassures it’s still in the Canadian fighter competition

09 July, 2019
| SOURCE: FlightGlobal.com
| BY: Garrett Reim
| Los Angeles


After a news report that said it might pull out of Canada’s fighter competition, Boeing says it’s still participating in the process and hasn’t made any final decisions.

Boeing and Airbus, which are respectively offering Ottawa the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the Eurofighter Typhoon, have complained in letters to Canada’s Department of National Defence that its procurement competition is unfairly favouring Lockheed Martin’s F-35A Lightning II stealth fighter, according to a report by Reuters. Boeing declines to comment specifically on the reported complaints.

“We appreciate the transparent nature of this competition, specifically the multiple opportunities to provide formal comments to the government of Canada on draft request for proposals (RFP),” says Boeing. “We continue to be very confident in the Super Hornet Block III capabilities to meet the defence needs of Canada and Boeing’s ability to bring unmatched benefits to the Canadian economy through the aerospace sector.”

The company also noted its commitment to share part of the contract work and value – 88 jets for a reported C$15 billion to C$19 billion. As part of its offset policy, called the Industrial and Technology Benefits (IBT) Obligation, Ottawa plans to score bids partially based on their ability to funnel work to local businesses.


However, Lockheed Martin has argued that it cannot provide offset contracts to Canadian businesses because as a member of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) programme the nation’s companies have already been given more than $1 billion contracts, and thus further accommodations would be in breach of the partnership agreement. Canadian F-35 suppliers include Curtis Wright Controls, which makes the aircraft’s radar single-board computer, and Magellan Aerospace, which makes the “A” variant’s horizontal tail.


Despite being a member of the Joint Strike Fighter programme and initially planning to buy the 65 examples F-35, Ottawa has dithered on whether or not to buy the stealth aircraft over the past decade. Nonetheless, the country has officially included Lockheed Martin as a qualified bidder in its latest fighter competition.

One other reported area of disagreement are Royal Canadian Air Force requirements that emphasise the ability to carry out first strikes on foreign targets, a role which favours the radar evading abilities of the F-35 stealth fighter. In place of stealth abilities, Boeing has pitched the F/A-18E/F’s longer, unrefuelled flight endurance and larger weapons carrying capacity as capabilities that enable the fighter to make missile strikes from stand-off distances, outside the range of enemy radar and air defences.

Ultimately, Boeing says its decision will be based on the final RFP, due out by the end of this summer.

“We look forward to continuing to provide comments, reviewing the final RFP, and determining next steps at that time,” says the company.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-459552/
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ricnunes

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Unread post10 Jul 2019, 09:53

Corsair1963 wrote:One other reported area of disagreement are Royal Canadian Air Force requirements that emphasise the ability to carry out first strikes on foreign targets, a role which favours the radar evading abilities of the F-35 stealth fighter.


So these companies (such as Boeing) think they know better than the RCAF what should be the requirements for the Canadian future fighter aircraft, LoL!
Oh lord, Canada does indeed have a "ball-less" government... :roll:


Corsair1963 wrote:In place of stealth abilities, Boeing has pitched the F/A-18E/F’s longer, unrefuelled flight endurance and larger weapons carrying capacity as capabilities that enable the fighter to make missile strikes from stand-off distances, outside the range of enemy radar and air defences.


Longer unrefuelled flight endurance than what?? Than the F-35A? Good luck with that :roll:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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luke_sandoz

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Unread post10 Jul 2019, 13:29

hb_pencil wrote:Wow, Boeing and Airbus are really pulling out all the stops.

They're not the most likely to leave the program - they're trying to make sure that Lockheed does.


Explain?
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post10 Jul 2019, 17:16

ricnunes wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:In place of stealth abilities, Boeing has pitched the F/A-18E/F’s longer, unrefuelled flight endurance and larger weapons carrying capacity as capabilities that enable the fighter to make missile strikes from stand-off distances, outside the range of enemy radar and air defences.[/b]


Longer unrefuelled flight endurance than what?? Than the F-35A? Good luck with that :roll:


For range I think for range they are assuming CFTs & EFTs along with a "minimum" weapons load.

For "larger weapons carrying capacity", I think they are talking about the variety of weapons it can carry vs a Block 3F F-35. They are completely ignoring the fact that Canada will be getting Block 4+ jets so...
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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ricnunes

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Unread post10 Jul 2019, 18:54

SpudmanWP wrote:For range I think for range they are assuming CFTs & EFTs along with a "minimum" weapons load.


Even with that, it's doubtful.
The Super Hornet on air interdiction missions with 4x1000lb bombs plus EFTs (plus air-to-air missiles) is said to have a combat radius of 390 nm:
https://web.archive.org/web/20111026182 ... r/f18.html

According to some sources it is expected that EFT could increase the Super Hornet range by 260 nm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_F/ ... per_Hornet
Even with the very optimistic figure above (and I have very strong reservations/doubts about it) we would have a combat radius for the same interdiction profile of around 650 nm, this for the Super Hornet.
A F-35A with a similar internal loadout (of 2x2000lb plus 2xAMRAAMs) has a combat radius of 669 nm. Even with minimalistic loadouts, the F-35A should also maintain its range advantage over the Super Hornet with CFTs+EFTs and this again using the same very optimistic values from above (regarding the Super Hornet).


SpudmanWP wrote:For "larger weapons carrying capacity", I think they are talking about the variety of weapons it can carry vs a Block 3F F-35. They are completely ignoring the fact that Canada will be getting Block 4+ jets so...


Yes, that's what I thought hence why I didn't commented about the above. However in this case the English is wrongly put. It should be something like "larger weapon variety" or something along those lines.

However and just to add to what you mentioned above, Boeing also seems to forget that Canada has and (unfortunately) always had a very minimalistic approach in terms of weapon variety for its combat aircraft fleet. Just look at the current CF-18 air-to-ground weapon inventory:
- Only Paveways and JDAMs. There's no cruise missiles like the Harpoon or land attack cruise missiles (like the SLAM, JASSM, etc...), no HARM missiles, etc... in the Canadian inventory. And I would seriously bet that this won't change with the new fighter aircraft! So the only aircraft that can remain survivable when facing future threats and when armed with a minimalistic weapon pool is the F-35 and only the F-35.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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