Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
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luke_sandoz

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Unread post07 May 2019, 00:52

SpudmanWP wrote:Nice conformation of the A2A Combat radius

The F-35 and the Eurofighter have both demonstrated that they can make this 1,451 nautical miles trip, which includes a significant altitude change, while carrying four missiles.



I would think that be on internal fuel for the JSF but with gasbags for the Eurofighter.

The F-35 will soon be able to do that mission with 6 internal carriage missiles✅
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madrat

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Unread post07 May 2019, 01:03

I'm surprised nobody linked Canada's subversive tact with Chinese influence in the public realm. Luckily their version of the DOJ hasn't been transformed by Trudeau (yet) and we had cooperation on the Huawei scandal. Boeing is tainted by Chinese influence in their civilian programs which haven't exactly been fruitful for them economically. When you add up 2+2 you get why Canada is so hellbent on Boeing. Just wait, as China has already cheated with fishing in Canadian waters Trudeau will brush it all under the rug for his socialist buddies. Canada is already showing ineptitude with challenging Chinese researchers activity in the arctic.
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mixelflick

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Unread post07 May 2019, 14:19

OK, so if the F-35 is out - what's next?

We all know who the usual suspects are. Personally, I think they're going to opt for Rafale. Two engines, some LO tech built in (enough for the PR value), decent range, fantastic E/W suite and... expensive. This will necessitate a reduced buy, but Canada's entire air force seems predicated on that "requirement".

It'll be marginally more capable than the SH, which wont' win solely on the bad blood between Boeing/Ottowa. Gripen too small, carries too little and no legs. Single engine along would kill it. EF Typhoon is a possibility, but the Rafale will rightly be judged more "multi-role" and allow for both the Canadian homeland defense mission as well as better meeting her NATO obligations.

New build F-16's are possible too, but I never saw it in Canadian colors. If not Rafale, then I can't imagine where they're going next. The boneyard, maybe?

There have to be Hornets galore there. No reason why they can't fly that airframe out to the year 2100 timeframe :mrgreen:
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marsavian

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Unread post07 May 2019, 14:21

OK, so if the F-35 is out - what's next?


The next government will have the last word on this aircraft competition and its parameters.
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ricnunes

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Unread post07 May 2019, 15:32

mixelflick wrote:OK, so if the F-35 is out - what's next?

We all know who the usual suspects are. Personally, I think they're going to opt for Rafale.


Don't get me wrong but I think that you forgot what was told you in page 346 of this same thread:
- That the Rafale is out from the Canadian competition (Dassault pulled out from it)

Also and as a reply to what was told you before in page 346, you replied the following in page 347:
mixelflick wrote:Did not know Rafale was out, thanks for letting me know.


:wink:

So you cannot count with the Rafale as a candidate in the Canadian competition!

Anyway, I hope that with all this, that the F-35 isn't out! The fact that this leaked letter was actually sent during the later part of last year (if I'm not mistaken) and it is only known now and again due to a leak, seems to indicate that the Liberals tried their "best" to hide this issue so that the F-35 continues on the competition and that any amend to the competition could be done "secretly" in order to overcome this situation.

However I agree that this looks worse for the F-35 and the Canadian competition right now - or more precisely the forecast for the RCAF operating the only viable choice (the F-35) looks grim - mostly IMO and curiously, due to this leak.

But here I have to agree with marsavian, the last word will come from the next government, whoever it might be.

Finally in the case the F-35 is out from the Canadian competition (I hope not!) I would again say that the winner would be the Super Hornet because:
1- It's the cheapest of all remaining options (if/with the F-35A being out, that is)
2- It's the most interoperable with US aircraft and equipment of all remaining options (if/with the F-35A being out, that is)
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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luke_sandoz

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Unread post07 May 2019, 16:48

A quick perusal of Canadian Media and it appears that Canadian voters have tired of their celebrity crush on Trudeau.

Seems he has stepped in too many poo-piles and lots of it has stuck.

Anyone up to speed on the CPC policy wrt a new plane?
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ricnunes

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Unread post07 May 2019, 17:00

luke_sandoz wrote:Anyone up to speed on the CPC policy wrt a new plane?


I believe that would be the right question to post, right now.

I would say that until after the elections we won't hear an official position of the CPC on the subject but "secretly" they should favor the F-35 (a position of which will only become public after the elections).
However, I could be wrong thou.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post07 May 2019, 17:45

They could also pull the "we must honor our word" card and remove the offset requirements to let the FFCP continue with the F-35's participation.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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marsavian

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Unread post07 May 2019, 21:25

ricnunes wrote:Finally in the case the F-35 is out from the Canadian competition (I hope not!) I would again say that the winner would be the Super Hornet because:
1- It's the cheapest of all remaining options (if/with the F-35A being out, that is)
2- It's the most interoperable with US aircraft and equipment of all remaining options (if/with the F-35A being out, that is)


Add to that most range with CFT/EFT plus potential to pick up a few Growlers too with the same airframe. Anyway it most likely will be what the Conservatives want to do with the competition parameters after Mr Fluffy is removed from office.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post07 May 2019, 22:13

"Canada deeply struggles politically to choose a CF-18 replacement" Is the synopsis for everything the last 8 years now.
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optimist

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Unread post07 May 2019, 23:55

The Growler is worth having, I don't think CA will buy it. We have the fa/18f. So nationalistic pride makes me a fanboy, but it would be really stupid for CA to buy the fa/18ef. I would agree that after the election there will be a 'come to Jesus' an epiphany of reason. The F-35A will be selected.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post08 May 2019, 07:04

optimist wrote:The Growler is worth having, I don't think CA will buy it. We have the fa/18f. So nationalistic pride makes me a fanboy, but it would be really stupid for CA to buy the fa/18ef. I would agree that after the election there will be a 'come to Jesus' an epiphany of reason. The F-35A will be selected.



Canadians are too cheap.

Canadians online are always using Australia as a model when it comes to promoting the super hornet, but then you point out Aus has also ordered 72 f-35s. and they suddenly clam up "we didn't mean be like Australia like that!"

Growlers are expensive. I'd love nothing more than for Canada to go "full Australia" just buy super hornets and growlers and F-35s and wedgetails, and tankers just go for broke, leafs. But seeing as they're fainting over the cost of super hornets, and punting their CF-18 replacement years down the road again I have no faith.
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optimist

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Unread post08 May 2019, 07:39

They do unusual stuff, like trying to get the legacy hornet into the next century. I still don't see new supers. I don't even see then getting our supers, in the probable 2025 decision to dump them. It looks like block 4 f-35 with the bugs ironed out, when they do pull the trigger. It may turn out to be a fortunate F"up in procurement.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post08 May 2019, 09:18

US, Canada talks underway to decide if the F-35 will be pulled from Canada’s fighter competition
08 May 2019 David Pugliese

"VICTORIA, British Columbia — The U.S. is threatening to pull the F-35 from Canada’s fighter jet competition if the ally to the north doesn’t change requirements for the winning bidder to stipulate specific industrial benefits for domestic firms. The U.S. government is arguing that since Canada is a partner in the F-35 program it cannot request guaranteed industrial benefits for its companies....

...Canada will require that a robust package of guaranteed industrial benefits or offsets be provided by the winning bidder, government officials have said. But the U.S. government has objected to that, as Canada is still a partner in the F-35 program, which does not guarantee participating nations a set number of contracts. Work on the F-35 program is based on best value and price.

U.S. Navy Vice Adm. Mathias Winter, program executive officer for the Joint Strike Fighter, wrote Canadian procurement officials Dec. 18, 2018, pointing out that the F-35 agreement prohibits partners from imposing requirements for industrial benefits. “We cannot participate in an offer of the F-35 weapon system where requirements do not align with the F-35 Partnership," he noted in his letter. Winter’s letter was leaked this week to defence analysts and the Canadian journalists.

The letter has prompted ongoing discussions between Canadian and U.S. procurement officials in an effort to work out some kind of solution, multiple industry and government sources told Defense News. But the Canadian government will also respect any decision by the U.S. to not bid the F-35 if an agreement can’t be reached, sources added. [so then it becomes the fault of the US Gubmnt that Canada cannot buy the F-35 wot doan werk etc & expensive also]

The Canadian government is putting the final touches on the bid requirements for new fighter jet project. That bid package is expected to be issued sometime this year. [oowah they are so naughty and not nice and arsk talk follows...]

...Michnowski [Ashley Michnowski, spokeswoman for Procurement Minister Carla Qualtrough] said Canada continues to be a member of the Joint Strike Fighter program, giving the country “the option to buy aircraft through the program, should the F-35 be successful in the competitive process for the future fleet.”..."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/05 ... mpetition/
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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optimist

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Unread post08 May 2019, 16:07

I think their order would be 60-70 tails? In the short term, who cares? The other partners will fight over the contracts CA will forfeit. They may even subcontract back to CA at a reduced cost. Isn't the world a funny place. :mrgreen:
In the long term for for flag waving and white hat peacekeeping. who cares. :roll:

Joint ops in something serious that also threaten CA, is where it will fall down
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