Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

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steve2267

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Unread post15 May 2018, 20:36

Has the Aussie sale progressed to something firm? Has a contract been signed, or canuckian dollars changed hands? Last I recall, Trudeau was going to do it, but I don't recall a contract having been signed...
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117 & gob of F-22, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well, then bake. Whaddya get? An F-35.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post16 May 2018, 02:09

Don't recall a contract signing but many GovToGov sweet murmurings about how it was all doable - as long as the US gubmint allowed such a sale - no word since Dec 12-13 2017 however there is this (if it has not been posted before?).
Canada gave U.S. just hours notice it would not buy Super Hornets
04 Mar 2018 Tim Naumetz

"...Documents a U.S. government agency provided to Congress regarding the proposed Boeing Super Hornet sale to Canada and earlier records of Boeing Super Hornet sales to Australia, show the jets Canada intended to buy would have been vastly more costly per plane than Australia’s acquisitions.... [then more 'vague' details already specified here?]

Source: https://ipolitics.ca/2018/03/04/canada- ... r-hornets/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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arrow-nautics

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Unread post30 May 2018, 22:46

https://globalnews.ca/news/4243206/cana ... 4-million/

Canada has quietly paid another $54 million toward the development of the F-35 stealth fighter jets, bringing its total investment in the controversial project to roughly half a billion dollars over the last 20 years.

The government is consulting with fighter-jet builders, including U.S. aerospace giant Boeing, before launching a formal competition early next year to decide on a replacement for the air force’s aging CF-18s.

Boeing remains on the fence about whether its Super Hornet will participate in the competition because of enduring questions about how the government will run it.

One concern is a new provision the government announced last year that aims to make it more difficult for companies that are deemed to be hurting the Canadian economy to win defence contracts.

The measure was announced at the height of Boeing’s bitter dispute with Canadian rival Bombardier, which has since been tossed out by a U.S. trade tribunal.

Boeing says it made its point with the challenge, and continues to work with the government with regards to other military contracts, but wants to see how the fighter-jet competition will be run before deciding whether to join
There's an old rule among many in the fighter procurement business: "Too Early to Tell, Too Late to Stop".
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Corsair1963

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Unread post31 May 2018, 01:48

We all know that Canada will end up with the F-35 in the end....... :wink:
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magitsu

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Unread post31 May 2018, 16:46

No worries. If Canada is stupid enough not to buy the F-35, there will be buyers lining up for their partnership dues. For example the Australia-Canada-United Kingdom Reprogramming Laboratory (ACURL) building's capacity will be gladly filled up by another entrant like Finland.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post01 Jun 2018, 02:50

magitsu wrote:No worries. If Canada is stupid enough not to buy the F-35, there will be buyers lining up for their partnership dues. For example the Australia-Canada-United Kingdom Reprogramming Laboratory (ACURL) building's capacity will be gladly filled up by another entrant like Finland.



If, Canada doesn't buy the F-35. You can bet the other partners will push for their workshare!
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magitsu

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Unread post01 Jun 2018, 07:39

Corsair1963 wrote:If, Canada doesn't buy the F-35. You can bet the other partners will push for their workshare!

Yeah, but there are other important things besides getting a bigger pie in producing the jets. Like the threat library upgrade capabilty. Since all FMS customers are pooled together that pipeline might become clogged.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post01 Jun 2018, 07:53

'magitsu' said above: "...all FMS [threat library] customers are pooled together that pipeline might become clogged." WUT!? Where did you get that idea please. Plenty of info here about different area / country pooled threat library labs (always supervised by USofA though). Search on ACURL for one lot: [so please do not repeat B/S about these labs thanks]
"...In the US a software reprogramming laboratory is also under construction, which will support JSF aircraft from Australia, Canada (should Canada eventually purchase the F-35) and the UK. Known as the ACURL (Australia, Canada, UK Reprogramming Laboratory), the facility is adjacent to a similar USRL (for the US Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps) and NIRL (for Norway and Italy). A further reprogramming laboratory will support the remaining partner nations and FMS customers at NAS Point Mugu in California…"
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post01 Jun 2018, 07:58

magitsu wrote:Since all FMS customers are pooled together that pipeline might become clogged.

Plenty of room in the pipeline


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magitsu

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Unread post01 Jun 2018, 08:21

SpudmanWP wrote:Plenty of room in the pipeline

Threat library lab capacity, not plane production. ALIS, mission data and in general, building the maintenance organisation are clearly the bigger worries these days.

The current setup is something like this:
Australia-Canada-UK lab (ACURL), Eglin (March 2019, moved from Fort Worth)
Norway-Italy lab (NIRL), Eglin
Foreign Reprogramming Laboratory (one lump for FMS customers), Point Mugu

US capability:
Reprogramming Center – East (RC-East) Air Combat Command reprogramming lab, Eglin
Reprogramming Center - West (RC-West) Navy lab, Point Mugu

https://bullocktice.com/projects/dod-pu ... ty-nirl-2/
http://wp.studeri.org/2015/04/eglin-get ... f-35-labs/
viewtopic.php?p=308828#p308828
Last edited by magitsu on 01 Jun 2018, 11:06, edited 3 times in total.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post01 Jun 2018, 08:39

Threat libraries are typically regional in nature so it should not matter how many FMS customers are in the plan as long as they share the same regions.

For instance, when Belgium buys the F-35 it will likely share the same/similar library as the UK, Finland, Denmark, etc.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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magitsu

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Unread post01 Jun 2018, 08:41

SpudmanWP wrote:Threat libraries are typically regional in nature so it should not matter how many FMS customers are in the plan as long as they share the same regions.

For instance, when Belgium buys the F-35 it will likely share the same/similar library as the UK, Finland, Denmark, etc.

Yes, they will largely overlap since the threats are not exactly unique. You still have to consider why there are so weird setups like Norway+Italy (vs. potentially much larger AUS+CAN+UK)... that has to be based on some kind of need since these labs go for 500 million each. ACURL staff was estimated at some point to be 50 US + 20 each from three, so 110.

This article alludes to Italy wanting to filter out some nationally sensitive data.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ti-443146/

Norwegian one as well: "et laboratorium der vi selv kan legge inn nasjonale sensitive data, slik vi i dag gjør på F-16" - strip out national data like with F-16s today
https://www.abcnyheter.no/nyheter/norge ... uverenitet

So there's a lovely potential bottle neck to acquisition. For example Finland will very likely want something similar. But 500 million... jeez. If Canada bails from their own, gimme some of dat. :D

I mean if Nato members feel the need to protect their nationally sensitive data, then how about non-allied FMS customers! Also note that Australia is already in one of these separate labs as a non-Nato.
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Unread post01 Jun 2018, 10:05

Indeed strange that Norway is teaming up with Italy on such a lab...? Perhaps too crowded in the "other" lab that would perhaps be natural for Norway to join?

Or something else?
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Unread post01 Jun 2018, 11:15

"... Australia is already in one of these separate labs as a non-Nato." The UK, Canada & Australia were formerly part of the British Commonwealth so they are natural partners historically and they share an interest in the Pacific Ocean Region.

COMMONWEALTH: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations
Member States in GREEN:
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magitsu

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Unread post01 Jun 2018, 11:31

Yeah, but that's the obvious part. If there is a need for several labs between smaller partners, one FMS lab might get bogged down real fast. It also faces big trouble when similar desires about wanting to handle the nationally sensitive data surface...

Israel and Japan are said to be customers of RC-West in Point Mugu.
http://wp.studeri.org/2015/04/eglin-get ... f-35-labs/

I wonder where Denmark ends up? Netherlands is another partner with no lab. Perhaps they will wait for Belgium?
Then how about Turkey? Collective sigh of relief for anyone not having partnered up with them in this regard. :P
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