Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

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popcorn

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Unread post22 Sep 2015, 05:54

About time...


http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/canad ... -1.3237046
Liberals 'living in a dream world' on F-35 cancellation, Stephen Harper says
Harper accuses Trudeau of putting aerospace industry at risk if fighter jet purchase scrapped
Today, Conservative Leader Stephen Harper said the Trudeau plan would "crater" Canada's aerospace industry, while Trudeau hit back, saying Harper's "dream" aircraft would be a "nightmare" for the Canadian taxpayer.During a campaign event in St. Jacobs, Ont., Harper called it "incomprehensible" that Trudeau would move to harm an industry that is vital to Canada's economy.

"The Liberal Party is living in a dream world if they think we can pull out of the development project of the F-35 and not lose business," Harper said. "I don't know what planet they're living on.

"Whether it's his statements on the aerospace industry, his statements on the deficit, you name it. It shows his disconnect and a profound lack of understanding about the Canadian economy."
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post22 Sep 2015, 11:23

http://globalnews.ca/news/2232629/reali ... no-impact/

Liberal leader Justin Trudeau says a Liberal government will cancel the planned purchase of the controversial F-35 fighter jets and instead invest that money in the Navy.

He said over the weekend that there would be no penalty for not buying the F-35s, and maintained on Monday that Canada is under no obligation to do so.

“There is no contract right now for the F-35s,” Trudeau said. “We were part of the international community contributing to the development of it and got jobs through it, but we were never obliged to actually purchase the F-35s.”

But is that correct? Yes and no.

Canadians companies wouldn’t lose current projects, but they wouldn’t be able to bid on huge amounts of future opportunities.

Canada is part of an international group that’s building a slate of F-35 fighter jets. As part of that coalition, Canadian companies are able to bid on, and have received, hundreds of millions in contracts. In a 2014 report, Canadian companies have received $637 million so far.
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Unread post22 Sep 2015, 13:20

Probably IF you read this thread 'oldiaf' you will find your answer. Why do we have to do your reading for you? SEARCH:

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24027&p=268787&hilit=contract#p268787
&
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24027&p=253158&hilit=contract#p253158

This is why Canada is being so contrary with every decision delayed until after the election due any day now:

https://www.f35.com/global/participatio ... ticipation
________________________________________________

Write - if you are able - to the Canuckian Gubermint both now and then:

https://www.f35.com/support/write-to-parliament
________________________________________________

Elected potential buyer governments talk to the US government/JPO about what they intend to do. BLOGS Newspapers Fwits have no bearing on these matters until the former actions take place. AND I DO NOT GIVE A FARK! Canudians are still in the program whether they like it or NOT until they are NOT! So like all grasshoppers one must be patient - OR NOT!

https://www.f35.com/global/participation/canada
______________________________________________

AND....
Multinational F-35-Summit to Be Held In Oslo On 25 September
09 Sep 2014 Norway Ministry of Defence

"...-- About the multinational F-35 program
In 2001 and 2002 a total of nine nations agreed to participate in the development of the F-35. In addition to the United States this included the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Canada, Italy, Turkey, Australia, Denmark and Norway. Of the nine countries in the program, seven have now made a final decision to buy the F-35. In 2007 the partners then signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) on the continued production, development and sustainment of the aircraft, and this agreement also established the management structure for the program that exists today.

Another important feature of the multinational program is that it negotiates joint contracts on behalf of all the partner nations. The various partner countries therefore have no separate contract with Lockheed Martin and Pratt & Whitney for the purchase of the F-35. This is negotiated by the program office and the PEO, Lieutenant General Bogdan. This helps ensure that countries are able to negotiate with industry as one single entity...."

Source: http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bi ... 6934&cat=3

BILL SWEETIEPIE gets in on the act (never a mention of first Italian built F-35A at AvWEAK thus far AFAIK) so go there:
Canadian Liberals Would Scrap F-35 Buy
21 Sep 2015 Bill Sweetman and Guy Norris | Aerospace Daily & Defense Report

"Weeks before the Oct. 19 Canadian federal election, Justin Trudeau’s Liberal party has committed to scrapping plans to buy 65 Lockheed Martin F-35A Joint Strike Fighters to replace the air force’s CF-18 Hornets.

Instead, the party would launch a competition for a less expensive substitute, and eliminate “first-strike stealth” from its requirements, as part of a strategy that emphasizes air defense and maritime capabilities. This is the first such specific commitment from a major Canadian political party. [YET to gain political office - until election - but hey a minor detail]

Election numbers and political predictions suggest there is a strong chance the fighter deal will be opened to competition, whether or not the F-35 is excluded. “One way or another, the F-35 in Canada is dead,” a Liberal politician with experience in fighter programs says....

...Canada is a partner in the F-35 program and a signatory to the 2006 production, sustainment and follow-on development agreement, but has not ordered any aircraft. The Harper government attempted in 2010 to procure the F-35 on a sole-source basis, but despite an absolute majority has been unable to because of pro-competition procurement laws and political opposition.

A 2012 report by Canada’s auditor-general challenged the Department of National Defense’s justification for an exemption to the laws, and the Harper government transferred authority for the fighter program to a special secretariat within the nation’s public works department. The New Democrats have consistently called for a competition....

...One Canadian financial analyst, speaking on condition that he not be identified, says Canada’s aerospace supply sector continues to favor a JSF buy. “They are very bullish on additional opportunities for business across the program,” he says. He also is doubtful the government would be easily able to exclude the F-35 from a competition....

...“When the Canadians decide they are buying an aircraft, and hopefully it will be the F-35, we will put a plan in place for them,” says Lorraine Martin, Lockheed’s F-35 executive vice president and general manager.

The F-35 JPO says, “Canada continues to remain a partner in the F-35 program and we continue to provide Canada with the information they need to make an informed decision that is the best interests of the nation.”"

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/canadia ... p-f-35-buy
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Unread post22 Sep 2015, 18:44

spazsinbad wrote:'geogen' there is NO CUSTOM GROWLER WING - yes the wing needs extra wiring but so what - THAT IS NOT CUSTOM.

I thought a timeline of how/what the 2 dozen Super Hornets were acquired (only 1 dozen wired for Growling but that was it - in the factory as they were being built - but I could be wrong on that score - I'll check). Then it was all too much and we bought 1 dozen Growlers and forgot about converting the 'wired' Supers to Growlers. This stuff certainly goes around and around, mainly from obsfucation by 'geogen' I suspect - but then again.... It was only the first half dozen of the two dozen Supers that were going to be converted initially (before the dozen Growlers were purchased) follow the link below.

Actually the wing is slightly different between a Block II Rhino and a Growler. There were some aerodynamic changes that the USN didn't want retrofitted to the F/A-18E/F, but for a Growler the aerodynamic benefit was justified.
Leading edge fairings now form a smooth "saw tooth" transition from the outer wing (the outer section that folds up and over for carrier operations) to the inner wing, replacing "snag" edge between the two on the Super Hornet. A 12.5cm (5in)-high by 150cm-long wing fence has been placed on the top surface of each wing about midway along the span, and there are now aileron "tripper strips" just ahead of the aileron hinge line. The two-strip arrangement forms a triangle rough 0.95cm high, eliminating the "aileron buzz" experienced by Super Hornet pilots during the same high-g manoeuvres. Engineers also replaced the perforated hinge fairing between outer and inner wing with a solid hinge fairing to help with the buffeting.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ng-225072/

The wiring changes for the RAAF F/A-18Fs to make them Growler capable was only AU$35m for the 12 jets, although the RAAF later decided to purchase 12 Growlers from the factory, and not upgrade the 12 F/A-18Fs. The extra wiring in the F/A-18F wings was relatively minor, and in most respects they were USN standard Block II jets. The USN doesn't typically paint the RAAF kangaroo roundel onto a Navy jet, so the markings were different.

Even exchanging the wings on a F/A-18F with EA-18G wings is small (~$4m replacement cost) compared to the cost of the pods fitted to a Growler.

As I commented previously, the F/A-18F is unlikely to be significantly more survivable than a F-35A. If the RCAF buys Super Hornets, the total cost won't be any cheaper than buying F-35s. The delivery time-frame advantage (e.g. RAAF F/A-18F in 2 years) is slipping away, assuming the Super Hornets are even available when a Canadian order is placed.
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Unread post22 Sep 2015, 20:13

So you buy a Super Hornet with/without Growler wing/aircraft wiring and later upgrade to Growler. Or you buy a Growler.

Does anyone envisage buying a Super Hornet then converting to Growler by changing the entire wing? I ask rhetorically.
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Unread post22 Sep 2015, 20:20

spazsinbad wrote:So you buy a Super Hornet with/without Growler wing/aircraft wiring and later upgrade to Growler. Or you buy a Growler.

Does anyone envisage buying a Super Hornet then converting to Growler by changing the entire wing? I ask rhetorically.



Wouldn't the Growler also require a beefed up electrical generation/distribution capability? Wiring is one thing, bigger generators are another thing to squeeze in, cool down and operate safely.
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Unread post22 Sep 2015, 20:26

The underwing pods have wind turbines for powering that stuff - dunno about anything else. Here is a video where they can be seen - at beginning - in flight: 1st screenshot just after catapult and second is during a carrier approach.

Attachments
GrowlerPodsSpinAfterCatapult.jpg
GrowlerPodSpinDuringApproach.jpg
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Unread post22 Sep 2015, 20:52

Canada Rivals Spar Over F-35 Purchase Ahead of Election
22 Sep 2015 Agence France-Presse

"..."The Liberal party is living in a dream world if they think we could pull out of the development of the F-35 and not lose business," Harper, head of the Conservative Party, said ahead of Oct. 19 elections.

The Tory leader, who is seeking his fourth mandate, pointed to hundreds of millions of dollars in contracts awarded to Canada's aerospace industry since 1997 to develop the stealth fighter with the United States and its allies, and the billions more to come....

...New Democratic Party leader Thomas Mulcair vowed to reboot the bidding process for the military contracts altogether. Mulcair said he is not necessarily against the F-35s, but is uncomfortable with the process that got Canada to this point.

"It's obvious that we need a new fighter," Mulcair said. "So we're going to try to get this right and try to define quickly what we need and start a process to get us a fighter jet rapidly because our men and women in uniform need that backup and Canada needs that as part of their defense."..."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /72623134/
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Unread post22 Sep 2015, 21:06

spazsinbad wrote:So you buy a Super Hornet with/without Growler wing/aircraft wiring and later upgrade to Growler. Or you buy a Growler.

Does anyone envisage buying a Super Hornet then converting to Growler by changing the entire wing? I ask rhetorically.

I know I'm being pedantic about the wing differences.... but technically they are different ... although the RAAF could probably retrofit the wings at minimal cost.

The big issue with the Super Hornet to Growler conversion (RAAF) would also require removing a lot of panels, and replacing some expensive avionics boxes, as well as adding additional airframe avionics. According to the budget docs, the airframe avionics specific to the EA-18 is about $8m more. The RAAF "airframe" upgrade cost was at least $20m, so basically double the cost difference of ordering new EA-18Gs. The other thing to remember is that the Navy purchases initial spares for the F/A-18E/F to cover the EA-18G as well, under the F/A-18E/F MYP contract. This makes the EA-18G appear cheaper than it really is.
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Unread post22 Sep 2015, 21:09

What is the story about 'wiring Super Hornets for Growling' in the production line then? Any wings changed or else?
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Unread post22 Sep 2015, 21:34

spazsinbad wrote:What is the story about 'wiring Super Hornets for Growling' in the production line then? Any wings changed or else?

The cost per aircraft for the wiring was minimal, and made the upgrade path "easier". Once wired, the most relevant difference to the wings being the missile rails, which are exchanged for ALQ-218s. It was more about options for the RAAF and making the whole deal politically pleasing for a "stop gap" aircraft.

The upgrade plans for 12 wired Super Hornets ended up being more complicated than the initial wiring plan. It would have made more sense if the RAAF didn't want 12 additional jets. Once the RAAF decided to buy 12 additional jets, the upgrade didn't make sense anymore.

The Navy still has two NEA-18Gs that were upgraded as prototypes, but didn't meet production EA-18G specifications. As I recall, the wing mods (or lack there of) were part of the reason these jets remained NEA-18Gs.
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Unread post22 Sep 2015, 21:47

The reason I recall that no RAAF Super Hornets (pre-wired) were upgraded to Growler status was the concern that the aircraft would be taken away from training/operations too long, further reducing the availability of the Super Hornets and of course having brand new Growlers was always attractive - the more the merrier - for those who wanted the even more mixed fleet of RAAF fast jets when the original steadfast idea was to have ONLY eventually all F-35s. And this little dummy spit by a former RAAFie Chappie BigWig always makes me smile.... :mrgreen: [MAYBE CRISS IS A CLOSET CANUCKian?] :mrgreen:
Australia’s multi-billion dollar defence dilemma
18 Feb 2008 ABC TV

MARK BANNERMAN [ABC TV interviewer]: ...Last year, the then Defence Minister Brendan Nelson made a decision to purchase 24 Super Hornet jet fighters. It left defence experts stunned. Last year, you effectively said this plane was a dog. Have you changed your view in any way about that?
PETER CRISS: [AIR VICE-MARSHAL, PETER CRISS (RET), FORMER AIR COMMANDER] I said it was a super dog and it's a super dog squared as far as I'm concerned. As we found out more and more about it, it's abysmal in every area that is so critical to buying a fighter strike type aircraft. It cannot perform.

MARK BANNERMAN: The former chief of Australia's operational Air Force isn't just worried about the choice of the Super Hornet that he believes is slower and more vulnerable than the plane it replaces, what really concerns Peter Criss most is that no one inside the Defence Force or the department was prepared to stand up and argue against the decision.
PETER CRISS: I know there's a bunch of them that know the Super Hornet is a dog, alright. They've told me, they've told acquaintances of mine, friends of mine that they are terribly concerned about it. But it was the decision taken by the Minister at very short notice for whatever reasons and foisted on them....”

Source: http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s2165833.htm
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Unread post22 Sep 2015, 22:19

Just because I feel bad for any contrarian closeted canucks - here is what the OFFICIAL RAAF really finks:
"Consolidated Air Combat Capability
31 Oct 2007 DMO

“...Regarding claims the Super Hornet is not sufficiently stealthy:
The Super Hornet is a low-observable (LO) aircraft, orders of magnitude more 'stealthy' than F-111 or Su-30s. The F-35 JSF is a Very Low Observable (VLO) aircraft and true 5th generation....

...The Super Hornet is a true multi-role aircraft that spans the air combat spectrum, including maritime strike, so vital for Australia. The Block II airframe is redesigned for signature reduction and the aircraft is built around the most advanced radar in any non-fifth generation aircraft in the world.

Modern lethal weapons render any aircraft performance measure irrelevant if it does not enable first shot. First shot is achieved long range through:

• modern networking;
• survivability – (through signature reduction and integrated electronic countermeasures that deny opponents the
---ability to shoot);
• advanced radars to cue weapons early, and
• lethal missiles – (with long range and protection against countermeasures).

In its air superiority roles, the F/A-18F possesses all these attributes & will test any modern air defence system. Air combat capability is about far more than the aircraft specifications. Reliable, sustainable logistics support, the best training and a full air combat system of command and control is required to match modern threats. No other aircraft can meet this requirement in the bridging timeframe better than F/A-18F Super Hornet....”

Source: http://www.defence.gov.au/dmo/ceo/record/CACC.pdf (54Kb)
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Unread post22 Sep 2015, 23:12

spazsinbad wrote:Just because I feel bad for any contrarian closeted canucks - here is what the OFFICIAL RAAF really finks:
"Consolidated Air Combat Capability
31 Oct 2007 DMO

“...Regarding claims the Super Hornet is not sufficiently stealthy:
The Super Hornet is a low-observable (LO) aircraft, orders of magnitude more 'stealthy' than F-111 or Su-30s. The F-35 JSF is a Very Low Observable (VLO) aircraft and true 5th generation....

Source: http://www.defence.gov.au/dmo/ceo/record/CACC.pdf (54Kb)


And when you add a couple of missiles & bombs and the necessary external fuel tank(s) the Super Hornet goes from LO to big target.

The F35, under the same circumstances, carries the weapons internally and doesn't need the gas bags thereby retaining its VLO capabilities.

So many times the F35 is compared to other aircraft when they are in Airshow Mode. Hear it all the time when maneuverability, acceleration, range etc are discussed. If only you could fight a war with an unarmed Airshow mode aircraft with a 1/4 tank of gas.
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