Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

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popcorn

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Unread post08 Aug 2014, 08:23

"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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lookieloo

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Unread post08 Aug 2014, 08:39

blindpilot wrote:You know this is actually just getting silly. As much as I admire the Canadian Military folks, the politicians are just off their rocker..

sooooooo,,,

I hear Cessna is making a solid little jet down in Kansas. http://www.scorpionjet.com/ It even made it to the Brit air show. They are cheap, sort of remind you of the beloved A-10, and shucks .. they are cheap to fly!
I'm gonna keep saying it until someone listens... the Su-25's vulnerabilities in Ukraine apply directly to the A-10/Scorpion. We're not even talking about near-peers here, just two-bit rebels with a little state-support have managed to swat-down one after another. Hell, they even shot-down a Mig-29 today.
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Unread post08 Aug 2014, 13:47

lookieloo wrote:
blindpilot wrote:You know this is actually just getting silly. ...
sooooooo,,,

I hear Cessna is making a solid little jet down in Kansas. http://www.scorpionjet.com/ It even made it to the Brit air show. They are cheap,...and shucks .. they are cheap to fly!

I'm gonna keep saying it until someone listens... the Su-25's vulnerabilities in Ukraine apply directly to the A-10/Scorpion. We're not even talking about near-peers here, just two-bit rebels with a little state-support have managed to swat-down one after another. Hell, they even shot-down a Mig-29 today.


ROFL ... Ooookay , let me make a slight edit here ....

"[/sarcasm]" I hear Cessna is making a solid little jet down in Kansas. http://www.scorpionjet.com/ It even made it to the Brit air show. They are cheap,...and shucks .. they are cheap to fly! "[/end sarcasm]"

Canada just needs to decide whether they want to follow Australia or New Zealand. That's the only study they need. New Zealand has some cute helicopters. Just keep in mind Putin thinks he owns all of the Arctic. Things are a bit dicier than down under. If you want to join the dance, you have to pay the piper. Stop playing like little girls at a tea party.

my 2 cents,
BP
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zerion

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Unread post08 Aug 2014, 16:59

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XanderCrews

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Unread post08 Aug 2014, 18:13

zerion wrote:Sshthh, don't tell Canada.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20 ... ed-Eielson


LOL nice
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Unread post10 Aug 2014, 05:32

Noticed these two ads placed by the Eurofighter Consortium and Lockheed Martin for their respective fighters in my program guide for the Abbotsford Air Show:
Attachments
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Unread post11 Aug 2014, 03:28

Canada will never purchase the Typhoon over the Lightning,,,,,,,,,, :doh:
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Unread post11 Aug 2014, 20:30

I must admit I know absolutely NOTHING about Canada except what I have read over the last several years about their 'involvement' with the F-35 and stuff. So is this true? I thought the JSF/F-35 was a Joint Strike FIGHTER?
Why Canada needs a competitive process to choose a fighter jet
11 Aug 2014 C.S. Sullivan

"C.S. Sullivan is a former general officer and fighter pilot, has served in senior command and leadership positions in the Canadian Forces, NATO and NORAD, and commanded international combat operations in Afghanistan....

...Canada’s strategic military planners use a capability-based methodology, not the U.S.-styled threat-based approach, to identify future military capabilities and equipment. Recognizing that Canada’s military “can’t do everything”, a capability-based approach allows planners to focus on defence and security scenarios that are most relevant and most likely for Canadian foreign and defence policy goals and objectives. The U.S. threat-based approach focuses on worst-case scenarios and threats that, no matter how unlikely such scenarios might be, are unavoidable for the world’s preeminent global superpower. Countries that have purchased the F-35 have non-discretionary defence missions far different than Canada.

For this reason, Lockheed-Martin designed the F-35 to be a stealthy strike fighter with the ability to carrying out pre-emptive and retaliatory strikes against China and Russia. Although assessed as highly unlikely that Canada would participate in these types of “discretionary” combat missions, it was this type of threat-based scenario that Canada’s Air Force surprisingly used to justify its selection of the F-35....

...As F-35 users in the U.S., Australia and the U.K. have confessed – but seemingly not to Canada – the narrowly-focused strike capability of the F-35 will require close integration with other air superiority and multi-role fighters for decades to come [WAIT - WHAT!?]. A mixed fleet approach is required to address the narrowly-focused capabilities of the F-35, which are capabilities that are not a good fit for Canada’s non-discretionary missions...."

Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-de ... e19985970/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post11 Aug 2014, 20:46

zerion wrote:Sshthh, don't tell Canada.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20 ... ed-Eielson



Wait Wait Wait!
What does the AF think that it is doing?
There is way too much Open Space up there in Alaska to risk a single engine aircraft flying around.
I'm sure cooler heads will soon prevail. :wink:
Daddy why do we have to hide? Because we use VI son, and they use windows.
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Unread post12 Aug 2014, 01:20

Why Canada needs a competitive process to choose a fighter jet
11 Aug 2014 C.S. Sullivan

"C.S. Sullivan is a former general officer and fighter pilot, has served in senior command and leadership positions in the Canadian Forces, NATO and NORAD, and commanded international combat operations in Afghanistan....

"...
For this reason, Lockheed-Martin designed the F-35 to be a stealthy strike fighter with the ability to carrying out pre-emptive and retaliatory strikes against China and Russia. Although assessed as highly unlikely that Canada would participate in these types of “discretionary” combat missions, "

... not a good fit for Canada’s non-discretionary missions...."

Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-de ... e19985970/


Again I note. It is true that Canada shouldn't have to respond to real threats. NORAD (read ultimately in a crunch US) will respond for Canada's interest (at least before the current US administration that was assumed ..) They do it for the Baltic countries now.

However, make no mistake.
A. Putin wants the Arctic resources.. (see current oil deals in the midst of sanctions)
B. He will push if no one pushes back (see Crimea)
C. He tests regularly the boundaries and edges .. (see recent Bear flights)

There is only one thing that will give Putin (and his AF Generals) pause ... if the US in a F-22/35 or Canadian pilot in an F-35 pulls up unannounced on the wing of the aircraft testing boundaries. Ask the Iranian F-4 pilot ... that tends to change ... perspectives. Canada needs replenished Arctic icebreaking patrol ships and a real 5th gen fighter (ie. F-35) if wants to play in the big league games and protect its own Arctic interest. But the General is right. It's discretionary for them. The US/UK and other NATO Air Forces will probably come to their aid... so frankly, if they don't want to, the little Scorpion would work fine for "pretending to assert air sovereignty."

BP
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Unread post12 Aug 2014, 14:40

""C.S. Sullivan is a former general officer and fighter pilot, has served in senior command and leadership positions in the Canadian Forces, NATO and NORAD, and commanded international combat operations in Afghanistan...."

Seems pretty clueless about the F-35. So many errors in one article. Wonder what the back story is here because this comes across as a sensationalistic drive by rather than a call to reason. Maybe has a career axe to grind with current RCAF officers in the JSF program and is just trying to dish up some payback? Wouldn't be the first time a retired officer tried to monkey wrench guys still climbing the ladder. Has to be something because this article is mostly drivel and will make him into a laughingstock in the retired fighter pilot community.
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Unread post12 Aug 2014, 17:12

On another forum (and for the life of me I cannot find the story again but will continue to look) there was an article and video of a former Canadian Fighter Jock bad mouthing the F-35 whilst he was now some bigwig in a Canuk firm selling satellite comms. I thought: WHY? After a while I find that said civvie was angling to be a candidate for the opposition in Canada who are against the F-35. Ah Huh. So perhaps this sully van chap above is angling for some political job soonish?

Found it. This chap Steve Fuhr was on some TV show in 2011 and only recently was he nominated for the politician opposition team....

JSF 35 vs F18 superhornet Uploaded on Sep 25, 2011

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Unread post19 Aug 2014, 02:17

Canada’s second thoughts on F-35 Lightning show concerns about plane’s high cost
By Christian Davenport August 18 | Washington Post

"As in the United States, the fighter plane [F-35] has become a rancorous political issue. What once looked like a sure buy of 65 planes has been bogged down by infighting and un-Canadian vitriol, and the purchase is on hold while Canadian officials consider whether to buy another plane...."

"But as Canada shows, not everyone is sold on what has become the most expensive weapons system in U.S. history. In addition to being a symbol of power, might and mind-bending technology, the next-generation Joint Strike Fighter has, to some, come to represent waste and unwieldiness — in the United States and abroad.

Many thought that by now Canada would have decided whether to buy the planes — a move that would help drive down costs in the nearly $400 billion program — or instead force the plane’s manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, to compete for its business. But it’s now unclear when that will happen.

Some fear that if nations such as Canada balk, there could be questions about the long-term affordability of the program. Meanwhile, Boeing, one of Lockheed Martin’s fiercest competitors, has pounced on what it sees as an opportunity in Canada and other countries to tout its F/A-18 Super Hornet as a proven, affordable alternative.

Facing budget constraints, Italy and the Netherlands have already curtailed the number of F-35s they said they plan to buy. Denmark is holding a competition that would pit the F-35 against other fighters. Meanwhile, the production line at Lockheed Martin’s Fort Worth plant has been limited to a little over 30 the past two years, as tightened U.S. budgets and technical problems have forced the Pentagon to significantly slow its procurement as well.

“The program is stuck in low production rates and high costs,” said Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace industry for the Teal Group. “The production rates are low because costs are high and costs are high because production is low.”..."

"“It gets to the fundamental tension within the JSF — you want to buy more of them because the quicker we buy them, the cost will come down,” Harrison said. “But the faster we buy them, that just increases the concurrency in the program. We’re buying planes that haven’t completed testing and are going to require modifications.”

The slowed production rate could have another consequence he said.

“One of the concerns has been as we’ve reduced the production rate, people have floated the idea of cutting back on the number of planes the U.S. is going to buy. Then you spook the allies.”..."

"Potential customers are one thing. Signed contracts are another.

It initially appeared as if Canada was definitely going to buy. Defense officials praised the F-35’s speed and stealth. At a news conference announcing the purchase to buy 65 F-35s in 2010, then-Defense Minister Peter MacKay called it “the best that we can provide our men and women in uniform.”

But two years later, the government put the acquisition on hold after an auditor general’s report suggested the government misled Parliament, saying that key costs over the course of the fleet’s life were much higher than previously stated...."

"Liberals attacked the conservative government. John McKay, a member of Parliament, called it “deceit and incompetence at the highest levels.” Another member, Ralph Goodale, wrote that the “F-35 fiasco exposes dishonesty and incompetence.”

As a result, the Harper administration, while denying it misled Parliament, put the purchase on hold and appointed a National Fighter Procurement Secretariat to ensure the Canadian military acquires the right plane.

But Goodale thinks that the government will put off any decision until after the upcoming elections. “This is a hot potato for them,” he said. “Their process up to now has been terribly flawed, and they have very little public support for how they’ve gone about this.”

The cost has been a big issue, and there was also “concern here in some circles that the F-35 was the anointed choice without having gone through the formality of a competitive process,” said Martin Shadwick, a Canadian defense analyst and a professor at York University.

Still, he said, “My personal anticipation is that we’ll still buy.”"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/ ... ml?hpid=z1
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Unread post19 Aug 2014, 02:36

Far more pressure would be needed to cancel the F-35 for Canada. Then if they keep it............Something the critics don't even touch on. :doh:
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Unread post19 Aug 2014, 06:13

Although... let it be said that the superior US-sold alternative to an F-35 for Canada would not be a relatively slow and range-restricted CF-18 E/F strike fighter, but rather a next-gen tactical derivative CF-15 Northern Eagle. (along the lines of an F-15SA + upgraded AGP-82 radar + MAWS + possible upgrade path LO treatments).

Superior endurance and intercept range (requiring less reliance on in-flight tankers), superior cruise speed and dash speed, superior situational awareness (sensor capabilities) and superior loadout capacity and flexibility. All-around more strategic platform comparative to F-35, than the F-18 E/F strike fighter.
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