Development Cost - Comparison w/ other fighter jet programs

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g3143

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Unread post21 Mar 2013, 21:14

The media keeps restating how the F-35 program is the most expensive defense weapon in U.S. history and they wont let your forget it. But I was wondering how much did it cost to develop and buy the F-16, Harrier, A-10, and the F/A-18 together? Is the cost of these programs combined greater, equal, or less then the f-35 cost? Sorry if this has already bin answered before on another thread.
Last edited by g3143 on 21 Mar 2013, 21:28, edited 1 time in total.
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luke_sandoz

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Unread post21 Mar 2013, 21:20

That is because no other procurement program in history used the 50+ year costing methodology.

Apply that methodology the CVN's and see what happens.
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lookieloo

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Unread post21 Mar 2013, 21:26

g3143 wrote:The media keeps restating how the f-35 program is the most expensive defense weapon in U.S. history and they wont let your forget it. But I was wondering how much did it cost to develop and buy the f-16, Harrier, and the F/-18 together? Is the cost of these programs combined greater, equal, or less then the f-35 cost? Sorry if this has already bin answered before on another thread.
You forgot to include the A-10 on that list.
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g3143

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Unread post21 Mar 2013, 21:33

lookieloo wrote:
g3143 wrote:The media keeps restating how the f-35 program is the most expensive defense weapon in U.S. history and they wont let your forget it. But I was wondering how much did it cost to develop and buy the f-16, Harrier, and the F/-18 together? Is the cost of these programs combined greater, equal, or less then the f-35 cost? Sorry if this has already bin answered before on another thread.
You forgot to include the A-10 on that list.


Sorry, almost forgot about the A-10 :oops:
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XanderCrews

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Unread post21 Mar 2013, 21:48

luke_sandoz wrote:That is because no other procurement program in history used the 50+ year costing methodology.

Apply that methodology the CVN's and see what happens.


especially since the latest class is slated to last 90 years. :shock:
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XanderCrews

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Unread post21 Mar 2013, 21:52

g3143 wrote:The media keeps restating how the f-35 program is the most expensive defense weapon in U.S. history and they wont let your forget it. But I was wondering how much did it cost to develop and buy the F-16, Harrier, A-10, and the F/A-18 together? Is the cost of these programs combined greater, equal, or less then the f-35 cost? Sorry if this has already bin answered before on another thread.


I guess it would be all on how you measure it as well... do you count the YF-17 or AV-8C? how about development upgrades that made the F-16 and F-18 better multi- role aircraft?


:?:
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lookieloo

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Unread post21 Mar 2013, 22:01

XanderCrews wrote:
g3143 wrote:The media keeps restating how the f-35 program is the most expensive defense weapon in U.S. history and they wont let your forget it. But I was wondering how much did it cost to develop and buy the F-16, Harrier, A-10, and the F/A-18 together? Is the cost of these programs combined greater, equal, or less then the f-35 cost? Sorry if this has already bin answered before on another thread.


I guess it would be all on how you measure it as well... do you count the YF-17 or AV-8C? how about development upgrades that made the F-16 and F-18 better multi- role aircraft? :?:
Yup, gotta include all the pods.
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the32notes

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Unread post21 Mar 2013, 22:54

Media also loves to talk about how expensive it is to operate and maintain the Lighnings

So operating and maintaining cost ei? While where at it, we could also include the extensive use of KC-135s, AWACS, EW Support Assets, among others.

And above all that, what kind capability do you end up with. can the legacy platforms "manage China"? penetrate deep into Russia for instance? I know the F-35 can. The others.......I'd like to say yes, but....
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g3143

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Unread post21 Mar 2013, 22:57

XanderCrews wrote:
g3143 wrote:The media keeps restating how the f-35 program is the most expensive defense weapon in U.S. history and they wont let your forget it. But I was wondering how much did it cost to develop and buy the F-16, Harrier, A-10, and the F/A-18 together? Is the cost of these programs combined greater, equal, or less then the f-35 cost? Sorry if this has already bin answered before on another thread.


I guess it would be all on how you measure it as well... do you count the YF-17 or AV-8C? how about development upgrades that made the F-16 and F-18 better multi- role aircraft?


:?:


I guess the YF-17 and AV-8C would count as development for the Harrier and the F/A-18. And development upgrades for the F-16 and F-18 would also count too. I think the total life cycle cost of the F-35 also includes future upgrades too.
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Unread post21 Mar 2013, 23:51

g3143 wrote: I think the total life cycle cost of the F-35 also includes future upgrades too.
At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if they also tried to include the future costs of maintaining static displays in museums.
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haavarla

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Unread post22 Mar 2013, 00:04

the32notes wrote:Media also loves to talk about how expensive it is to operate and maintain the Lighnings

And above all that, what kind capability do you end up with. can the legacy platforms "manage China"? penetrate deep into Russia for instance? I know the F-35 can. The others.......I'd like to say yes, but....


The only thing you know about F-35 is what LM Adv claim.
So pls rephrase it to; " i know LM claim F-35 can penetrate deep into Russia and China"

Think about it. At this point its a very difficult mission(consider F-35 is not in service), and lets go 5 years or 10 into the future. Do you know how many F-35 that will be on order or even in service around the world?

Do you know how the re-armament of VVS and PLAAF will look like at that timeframe?

Five years ago, folks on this forum downplayed both China and Russia AF.
Said the Flanker fleet was going to drop sharply and the F-35 would enter service in due time, and take over a large chunk of former Flanker market.
India was going to order F-35 and kill all Flanker production bla bla and what not.

Look at present time, the Flanker production has never been higher, there are both advanced Su-30SM and Super MKI on order. China will most likely order Su-35.
Hell, even Indonesia will order more Su-30/35:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/ ... ws&rpc=401

Russia is likely to order around 100 Su-35S and 60 Su-30SM alone.



The more people claim future fighter prospect for certain...
Last edited by haavarla on 22 Mar 2013, 00:43, edited 3 times in total.
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battleshipagincourt

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Unread post22 Mar 2013, 00:34

lookieloo wrote:I guess it would be all on how you measure it as well... do you count the YF-17 or AV-8C? how about development upgrades that made the F-16 and F-18 better multi- role aircraft? :?:
Yup, gotta include all the pods.[/quote]

And let's throw in all the production numbers as well. Supposing the F-35 fulfills its entire order with the US and foreign customers, its grand total would be roughly 3,000.

Now let's compare that to 4,500+ F-16's. About 1,500 F-18's. 716 A-10's. And about 350 AV-8B's.

Now if you simply compared the production costs of just the 4,500 F-16's, you'd have all these for just $135 billion @ $30 million each in 2012 dollars. That's opposed to the F-35's ~$300 billion for only 3,000. Assuming a favorable unit cost of only $100 million and not taking R&D into account.

In the end you'd find the F-35 is just the latest trend in increasingly more expensive fighters in ever decreasing quantities. Granted the F-35 is at least as capable as the fighters it's replacing and is vastly more capable in many ways, but the fact is that it's extraordinarily expensive... so much so that you may not be willing to replace three less capable fighters with one F-35.
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lookieloo

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Unread post22 Mar 2013, 00:40

battleshipagincourt wrote:...just the 4,500 F-16's alone, you'd get to about $135 billion... about $30 million each in 2012 dollars.
Eh, I know that's the number put out on wiki...
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XanderCrews

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Unread post22 Mar 2013, 01:14

haavarla wrote:
the32notes wrote:Media also loves to talk about how expensive it is to operate and maintain the Lighnings

And above all that, what kind capability do you end up with. can the legacy platforms "manage China"? penetrate deep into Russia for instance? I know the F-35 can. The others.......I'd like to say yes, but....


The only thing you know about F-35 is what LM Adv claim.
So pls rephrase it to; " i know LM claim F-35 can penetrate deep into Russia and China"

Think about it. At this point its a very difficult mission(consider F-35 is not in service), and lets go 5 years or 10 into the future. Do you know how many F-35 that will be on order or even in service around the world?

Do you know how the re-armament of VVS and PLAAF will look like at that timeframe?

Five years ago, folks on this forum downplayed both China and Russia AF.
Said the Flanker fleet was going to drop sharply and the F-35 would enter service in due time, and take over a large chunk of former Flanker market.
India was going to order F-35 and kill all Flanker production bla bla and what not.

Look at present time, the Flanker production has never been higher, there are both advanced Su-30SM and Super MKI on order China will most likely order Su-35.
Hell, even Indonesia will order more Su-30/35:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/ ... ws&rpc=401

Russia is likely to order around 100 Su-35S and 60 Su-30SM alone.



The more people claim future fighter prospect for certain...


He said while making claims such as "is likely" and "most likely" :roll:

The Flankers looking great!! What will it be in 5 to 10 years? 35? 40 years old? Thats something the Flanker really has on the F-35, being designed in the 1970's and all, its here now. And where is the F-35? huh still be developed instead of upgraded for the thousandth iteration. I can't wait to see the Ultra Flanker WXYZ. Its just a wonderful aircraft that keeps on going.
Last edited by XanderCrews on 22 Mar 2013, 01:19, edited 1 time in total.
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haavarla

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Unread post22 Mar 2013, 07:42

My point is, you blame the media for picking up on all the F-35 problems now.
Funny, i did not hear any complaints 5 years ago when the media painted the F-35 up in the sky..

The cost overrun of F-35 and its comparison to other jets are very much a reason we still see Asian countries still ordering Sukhois like never before. Lots of bang for the bucks.
But reading your post, I guess you know much better than the various AF around the world and what kind of requrements they need.

Just admit it, LM shot them self in the foot and the future F-35 prospect as less than rose red.
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