Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 02:01
by weasel1962
Local newspapers are quoting interview with Singapore defence minister stating that the country is in the final stages of deciding whether to procure the F-35. Most analysts generally believe it is just a question of timing. Like Korea, Singapore has the option to procure the F-15SG/SE and was expected to be influenced by Korean selection decision. LM was also actively marketing the F-35B to Singapore due to short take-off requirements but the A variant is considered favourite. The Republic of Singapore air force operates a sqn of F-15SGs, 3 sqns of F-16C/D Blk 50+ and is overdue to replace its remaining F-5 Tigers. The F-5s which entered service in 1979 were upgraded in 1996-99 to provide an intended 10 more years of service. The country which has a ~US$10b defense budget does not generally face significant political opposition to military acquisitions.

http://www.asiaone.com/News/Latest%2BNe ... 07879.html

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 08:39
by weasel1962
Flight has more details...

Singapore is close to completing its evaluation of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), which it sees as a possible fit for its future requirements.

"Though the F-35 aircraft is still in development, we are nonetheless interested in the platform for our future needs," defence minister Ng Eng Hen said in a speech to parliament on 11 March.

[...] "For the longer term, the Republic of Singapore Air Force has identified the F-35 as a suitable aircraft to further modernise our fighter fleet," he added. "We are now in the final stages of evaluating the F-35." [...]

Singapore is a security cooperation participant in the F-35 programme, which provides access to programme data and allows it to request special studies.

Ng gave no sense about whether Singapore will hold a tender for new fighters, the number of new aircraft that will be obtained, or the timeframe for a new aircraft acquisition.

One alternative to the F-35 could be additional Boeing F-15SG aircraft, of which Singapore operates 24. Another alternative could be an F-15 variant based on the F-15 Silent Eagle that Boeing has proposed in South Korea's F-X III competition.

Full article: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... nt-383321/

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 09:30
by spazsinbad
Dupe post from deleted simultaneous thread:...

Singapore in 'final stages' of evaluating F-35
12 Mar 2013 AFP

Singapore is in the final stages of evaluating the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter as a possible replacement for its F-15 and F-16 planes, the defence minister said in remarks published Tuesday....

[...] "Though the F-35 is still in development, we are nonetheless interested in the platform for our future needs," Ng said during a debate on the national budget.

A recording of his remarks was posted Tuesday on a government website.

"The F-35 will be the vanguard of next-generation fighter aircraft in operation," he added.

Ng said Singapore's Boeing F-15 fighters "are nearing the end of their operational life" and its Lockheed Martin F-16s are at their mid-life mark.

"For the longer term, the RSAF (Republic of Singapore Air Force) has identified the F-35 as a suitable aircraft to further modernise our fighter fleet. We are now in the final stages of evaluating the F-35," he said. [...]

Singapore's defence ministry "will have to be satisfied that this state-of-art multi-role fighter meets our long-term needs, is on track to be operationally capable, and most importantly, is a cost-effective platform," Ng said."

[...]

Source: http://www.asiaone.com/News/Latest%2BNe ... 08014.html

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 09:47
by popcorn
SPOILER ALERT:

Any Singapore procurement process will be free of government drama and media hysterics... rather boring, come to think of it. :) :)

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2013, 12:31
by popcorn
I've seen references to 2014 as the year when the RSAF will start retiring it's F-5 fleet. Maybe the JPO will get lucky and the RSAF will decide on the F-35 sooner rather than later.

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2013, 13:57
by maus92
Their F-5s are ready to retire, and their F-16s are at mid-life. If they go with F-35, it will probably be a split buy of A/Bs. They will retain their F-15s for air superiority.

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2013, 14:52
by quicksilver
maus92 wrote:Their F-5s are ready to retire, and their F-16s are at mid-life. If they go with F-35, it will probably be a split buy of A/Bs. They will retain their F-15s for air superiority.
'F-15 air superiority' with F-35s doing...?

Well, the Eagle is a better option for defense than Oz (and the Navy) has with Super Hornets.

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2013, 16:05
by spazsinbad
Singapore expected to order F-35 fighter jets soon - sources
14 Mar 2013 By John O'Callaghan

Singapore is in the "final stages of evaluating" the F-35 to upgrade its air force, a process U.S. sources say should turn quickly into orders for several dozen of the stealthy warplanes that have been beset by cost overruns and delivery delays.

Singapore, a major business and shipping hub with the best-equipped military in Southeast Asia, is expected to submit a "letter of request" soon for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, said two U.S. government officials who were not authorized to speak publicly on the matter. [...]

Singapore became a minor partner in the programme in 2003, along with Israel, which has ordered 19 of the jets so far.

Singapore's F-35 order is expected to include the Marine Corps' B-model, which can take off from shorter runways and lands like a helicopter, said a source familiar with that variation of the plane.

Due to the city-state's small size and limited air space, its air force trains its fighter pilots in the United States and its helicopter pilots in Australia. [... ]

Source: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/03/1 ... =worldNews

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 01:43
by spazsinbad
Singapore Poised To Announce Purchase Of 12 F-35Bs
By Colin Clark 25 March 2013

Singapore is expected to announce sometime in the next 10 days that it plans to buy its first squadron --12 planes -- of some 75 of Lockheed Martin's F-35Bs, further bolstering what had been the flagging fortunes of the world's most expensive conventional weapon system.

The fact that American allies in the Pacific are the ones committing to the controversial and over-budget aircraft is telling. [...]

But the underlying reason for the choice of Singapore and the other Pacific countries may be found in the conclusion of these countries about the F-35's effectiveness. One senior official from the region, who has access to the most sensitive classified information about the system, told me recently that the F-35 is "simply undefeatable." And this official said the aircraft is expected to maintain its dominance for at least one quarter of a century.

If you link the F-35s from Singapore, Japan and Australia with the US planes that will be stationed throughout the Pacific at Air Force bases, on aircraft carriers and on the Gator navy's ships, then the US and allied presence will loom large in an arc from Alaska west and south to the bottom of the South China Sea and then back down to Australia and across to Hawaii. [...]

Source: http://defense.aol.com/2013/03/25/singa ... 12-f-35bs/



Japanese Build/Repair Facility mentioned also in the article.

F-35B Singapore order imminent

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 07:12
by popcorn
The decision may be forthcoming a lot,sooner than many expected. And the much-maligned STOVL jet appears to be the winner.

Singapore Poised To Announce Purchase Of 12 F-35Bs

Singapore is expected to announce sometime in the next 10 days that it plans to buy its first squadron --12 planes -- of some 75 of Lockheed Martin's F-35Bs, further bolstering what had been the flagging fortunes of the world's most expensive conventional weapon system... Given Singapore's tiny size its choice of which of the three F-35 versions to buy is not surprising. A plane that can take off almost vertically and can land vertically is able to operate from a much smaller footprint than, say the F-35A (the Air Force version) or F-16 Block 60s... But the underlying reason for the choice of Singapore and the other Pacific countries may be found in the conclusion of these countries about the F-35's effectiveness. One senior official from the region, who has access to the most sensitive classified information about the system, told me recently that the F-35 is "simply undefeatable." And this official said the aircraft is expected to maintain its dominance for at least one quarter of a century.

Source: http://defense.aol.com/2013/03/25/singa ... 12-f-35bs/

RE: F-35B Singapore order imminent

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 09:02
by spazsinbad
Singapore Poised To Announce Purchase Of 12 F-35Bs
By Colin Clark 25 March 2013 [Repeated here from there]

"WASHINGTON: Singapore is expected to announce sometime in the next 10 days that it plans to buy its first squadron --12 planes -- of some 75 of Lockheed Martin's F-35Bs, further bolstering what had been the flagging fortunes of the world's most expensive conventional weapon system...."

Source: http://defense.aol.com/2013/03/25/singa ... 12-f-35bs/

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 09:12
by spazsinbad
Last paragraphs only below...

F-35 Joint Strike Fighter: Singapore’s Next-Generation Fighter? – Analysis By RSIS -- (March 26, 2013) By Kelvin Wong

"...JSF as a long-term option
However, there is nevertheless still a strong case for the JSF as Singapore’s next-generation fighter in a future acquisition programme. The fact remains that the JSF is the only (and probably last) fifth-generation western combat aircraft currently being developed. In addition to its much-touted stealth characteristics and sensor capabilities, this cutting-edge quality offers more room for further upgrades in contrast to the already mature F-15 design conceived in the 1960s.

This is unless Singapore is willing to consider Chinese or Russian fifth-generation options – a distinctly remote, if not altogether impossible prospect when considering Singapore’s traditional preference for established US or western-made equipment – or even turn to unmanned combat platforms when those technologies mature. Given the circumstances, the JSF seems like the only viable option for maintaining the RSAF’s role in Singapore’s defence in the long-term.

Kelvin Wong is a Programme Manager (Military Studies Programme) at the SAF-NTU Academy (SNA). The views expressed are his own."

Source: http://www.eurasiareview.com/26032013-f ... -analysis/

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 09:18
by lookieloo
spazsinbad wrote:Singapore Poised To Announce Purchase Of 12 F-35Bs By Colin Clark 25 March 2013

"WASHINGTON: Singapore is expected to announce sometime in the next 10 days that it plans to buy its first squadron --12 planes -- of some 75 of Lockheed Martin's F-35Bs, further bolstering what had been the flagging fortunes of the world's most expensive conventional weapon system.

The fact that American allies in the Pacific are the ones committing to the controversial and over-budget aircraft is telling....

...But the underlying reason for the choice of Singapore and the other Pacific countries may be found in the conclusion of these countries about the F-35's effectiveness. One senior official from the region, who has access to the most sensitive classified information about the system, told me recently that the F-35 is "simply undefeatable." And this official said the aircraft is expected to maintain its dominance for at least one quarter of a century.

If you link the F-35s from Singapore, Japan and Australia with the US planes that will be stationed throughout the Pacific at Air Force bases, on aircraft carriers and on the Gator navy's ships, then the US and allied presence will loom large in an arc from Alaska west and south to the bottom of the South China Sea and then back down to Australia and across to Hawaii....

Japanese Build/Repair Facility mentioned also in the article.

Source: http://defense.aol.com/2013/03/25/singa ... 12-f-35bs/

Who is this guy and what did he do with Colin Clark?

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 09:55
by Conan
maus92 wrote:Their F-5s are ready to retire, and their F-16s are at mid-life. If they go with F-35, it will probably be a split buy of A/Bs. They will retain their F-15s for air superiority.


They've only got 24x of them, so I think the F-16's and F-35's might just end up doing a bit of air superiority, OCA and DCA too.

Their F-15's are fairly handy mud movers too I believe. I don't think they'll drop that role, just because F-35's are coming...

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 10:56
by popcorn
Thanks..

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 12:18
by m
2013 march: export orders by countries:
(1) Rafael: India
(2) Typhoon: Austria, South Arabia
(1?) Gripen E: Switzerland?
(1) F18E/F: Australia

(7-8 ) F35: UK, Netherlands, Italy, Norway, Australia, Japan, Israel, Turkey(?)

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 12:28
by mixelflick
"One senior official from the region, who has access to the most sensitive classified information about the system, told me recently that the F-35 is "simply undefeatable." And this official said the aircraft is expected to maintain its dominance for at least one quarter of a century..."

Hmmm... :)

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 12:45
by gtx
What is interesting here is the fact that it appears that they are going for the Bravo version. Given Singapore bases a lot of their platforms overseas (for training officially...though you can't tell me the 'dispersion' side effect in ignored), doe ethics signal a change in the plans for the F-35? I wonder...

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 12:50
by lookieloo
gtx wrote:What is interesting here is the fact that it appears that they are going for the Bravo version. Given Singapore bases a lot of their platforms overseas (for training officially...though you can't tell me the 'dispersion' side effect in ignored), doe ethics signal a change in the plans for the F-35? I wonder...
Don't they do a lot of their stuff in Oz? Hmm, and in such proximity to those brand-new LHDs........

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 13:10
by popcorn
mixelflick wrote:"One senior official from the region, who has access to the most sensitive classified information about the system, told me recently that the F-35 is "simply undefeatable." And this official said the aircraft is expected to maintain its dominance for at least one quarter of a century..."

Hmmm... :)


As unattributed quotes go, this positive statement will not be replicated,throughout the interweb whereas negative comments resonate ad infinitum..

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 14:57
by delvo
B, not A... less time in the air per flight, tighter bomb load restrictions, no gun, higher price to buy, more parts to work with on the ground. That "what if our runways get damaged" issue must be pretty high on their list of priorities.

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 15:03
by seruriermarshal
sure , thanks for information :D

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 16:51
by maus92
Conan wrote:
maus92 wrote:Their F-5s are ready to retire, and their F-16s are at mid-life. If they go with F-35, it will probably be a split buy of A/Bs. They will retain their F-15s for air superiority.


They've only got 24x of them, so I think the F-16's and F-35's might just end up doing a bit of air superiority, OCA and DCA too.

Their F-15's are fairly handy mud movers too I believe. I don't think they'll drop that role, just because F-35's are coming...


Interesting that they have twice as many F-16Ds as F-16Cs. F-15SG is still a contender as the F-5 replacement - the F-15s were just recently acquired, and the have at least some supporting infrastructure. Might even be a split tender. Who knows.

http://www.eurasiareview.com/26032013-f ... -analysis/

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 18:46
by neurotech
maus92 wrote:
Conan wrote:
maus92 wrote:Their F-5s are ready to retire, and their F-16s are at mid-life. If they go with F-35, it will probably be a split buy of A/Bs. They will retain their F-15s for air superiority.


They've only got 24x of them, so I think the F-16's and F-35's might just end up doing a bit of air superiority, OCA and DCA too.

Their F-15's are fairly handy mud movers too I believe. I don't think they'll drop that role, just because F-35's are coming...


Interesting that they have twice as many F-16Ds as F-16Cs. F-15SG is still a contender as the F-5 replacement - the F-15s were just recently acquired, and the have at least some supporting infrastructure. Might even be a split tender. Who knows.

http://www.eurasiareview.com/26032013-f ... -analysis/

Maybe because I'm biased, having spent time in the back seat, and emergencies aside enjoyed every minute of it :D

I think there is some merit to the idea of flying twin seat jets, with the 2nd seat empty on some mission profiles. The F-16D/E/F/V has CFTs to offset the fuel/range decrease.

That said, when fully mission capable, and ready, the networked/sensor-fused F-35s will be a huge advance on even 4.5th gen fighters of today. Singapore and other operators will do well with the F-35.

Allied integration?

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 19:56
by weasel1962
If true, this could have implications for USMC, USN, RN & RSAF concept of ops. RSAF F-35Bs can, in theory, operate from RN's QE, USN's Nimitz & USMC's LHDs. This means all stated forces will have greater reserves to "borrow" aircraft in cases of emergencies. As the Far east and the Atlantic are 2 differing sectors of operations, it is unlikely that both regions will face emergencies at the same time. With integrated training, all F-35B operators are likely to be equally qualified hence increasing the pool of available pilots.

UK & Singapore are FPDA allies which provides a framework to cross-base if required. That means a QE CV operating in the Far East with just 12 F-35B could, in theory, bulk up to a full complement by "borrowing" RSAF inventories. Same thing can apply with Nimitz class carriers or America LHDs though there is no formal alliance. Nimitz class carriers already dock in Singapore on a regular basis and LCS now rotates thru Singapore in a networked environment. The RSAF operates F-15s and F-16s which can afford F-35Bs to act as a strategic reserve. Looks like future FPDA exercises in that region could get very interesting and may justify QE CV's participation. By finalising on the F-35B instead of F-35Cs, the RN may ironically increase allied integration & participation though not with their original intended partner, the French.

RE: Allied integration?

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2013, 20:09
by spazsinbad
If Singaporean F-35Bs need some ski jumping practice they can always either journey to Oz or wait for Oz LHDs to visit the vicinity for some such practice in preparation for whenever the CVF(s) do a world tour. By all accounts the CVFs (some commentators - not me) will have troubles 'East of Sewers' (I jest) so they may not venture off the edge of the world anytime soon with their stated regular embarkation of a dozen RN/RAF F-35Bs. Early days - all will be sorted soon enough. :D

RE: Allied integration?

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 00:52
by underpaid
Sorry to disappoint, but I believe Singapore will NOT be getting the B variant, the Defence Minister only mentioned F-35 without specifying variant and it was some Wild a$$ Guess from an AOL writer, Clark, that it was the B variant because "Singapore is small". Which is an unsupported leap of logic. I have extreme doubts that the RSAF will tolerate the increased maintanence and reduced capabilities of the B-variant for a VTOL capability that is ...Gucci at best for a land based air force primarily focused on air superiority.

delvo, the runway loss problem is a worry, but one that has been worked around.

Look up Singapore Exercise Torrent in youtube, got some nice shots of F-16s landing and taking off from public roads.

RE: Allied integration?

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 01:25
by spazsinbad
'underpaid' perhaps you missed this second report from REUTERS on previous page:

Singapore expected to order F-35 fighter jets soon - sources By John O'Callaghan SINGAPORE 14 Mar 2013


http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/03/1 ... =worldNews

"...Singapore's F-35 order is expected to include the Marine Corps' B-model..."

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 02:31
by Corsair1963
Conan wrote:
maus92 wrote:Their F-5s are ready to retire, and their F-16s are at mid-life. If they go with F-35, it will probably be a split buy of A/Bs. They will retain their F-15s for air superiority.


They've only got 24x of them, so I think the F-16's and F-35's might just end up doing a bit of air superiority, OCA and DCA too.

Their F-15's are fairly handy mud movers too I believe. I don't think they'll drop that role, just because F-35's are coming...



Singapore's F-15SG's are a variant of the F-15E Strike Eagle. Which, are designed for the long range strike role not Air Superiority. So, I assume the RSAF would switch back in forth between the F-35's and F-15's depending on the mission and threat.

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 09:56
by weasel1962
Half the F-15SGs are based in Mountain Home Idaho. The F-16s bears the primary fighter role. With the limited air space that the F-15/16s have to operate in, no surprise that RSAF fighters are based out of the country. Fighters taking off from Singapore have to make a hard turn to avoid going into foreign airspace. The F-35B may afford easier take-offs and landings at slower speed.

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 10:00
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:Half the F-15SGs are based in Mountain Home Idaho. The F-16s bears the primary fighter role. With the limited air space that the F-15/16s have to operate in, no surprise that RSAF fighters are based out of the country. Fighters taking off from Singapore have to make a hard turn to avoid going into foreign airspace. The F-35B may afford easier take-offs and landings at slower speed.


Most people expected the F-35B to be purchased for Naval use from small Carriers or LHA/LHD's. It will be interesting to see if more Landbased Air Forces acquire the type? :?:

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 11:09
by spazsinbad
The Italians look to operate F-35Bs ashore also since the beginning - not just on flat decks. This is a repeat post from elsewhere on this forum. The Italian Navy and Air Force F-35B aircraft will be exchangeable but NOT the pilots.

F-35 Base-Sharing Plan Defuses Spat Between Italy’s AF, Navy Jul. 2, 2012
By TOM KINGTON & VAGO MURADIAN

“...Italy has confirmed a base sharing plan for its 30 Navy and Air Force short-takeoff, vertical-landing (STOVL) aircraft, which is set to save on maintenance and support. The fighters — 15 for the Navy and 15 for the Air Force — will be grouped at the Navy’s Grottaglie base in southern Italy, which currently hosts the Navy’s AV-8 Harrier jump jets....

...“The arrangement with the Italian Ministry of Defense, which issued the directive on this, was that the Air Force and Navy would put two squadrons of 15 aircraft in a single base, and we accepted to share the base with the Navy at Grottaglie close to where the [Italian carrier] Cavour is stationed,” said Gen. Giuseppe Bernardis, Italian Air Force chief. ... “Supportability is a key issue with two squadrons of 15 and 15 [STOVLs],” Bernardis said. “We think 30 is a number that is sustainable, and that is why we are going together. We will have common support and different advanced training.”

Bernardis said the two squadrons would not fall under one command, nor would Air Force pilots get into the habit of flying from the decks of the Cavour. “That is something we are not aiming at now, but in case of need, we are ready to do everything,” he said. “We don’t want a replica of the U.K. system where the [Royal Air Force] & Royal Navy Harriers are under one single line of command. The British model creates too many controversies between the two forces.

“But what is important is that we could switch JSF aircraft between the two services,” he said. “The aircraft will be owned by the two forces, but in case of necessity, the Air Force vision is that pilots from one force could fly the aircraft belonging to the other force.”...

...“We commissioned a Lockheed Martin study 12 years ago about mixed fleet capability and we think in many instances, the use of the F-35B could make the difference between having and not having a suitable runway for land operations,” he said....”

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... |FRONTPAGE

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 11:44
by joost
Big chance the decision of Singapore to purchase F-35s will influence the South Korean fighter competition in favor of the F-35.

Joost

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 12:37
by stobiewan
spazsinbad wrote:The Italians look to operate F-35Bs ashore also since the beginning - not just on flat decks. This is a repeat post from elsewhere on this forum. The Italian Navy and Air Force F-35B aircraft will be exchangeable but NOT the pilots.

F-35 Base-Sharing Plan Defuses Spat Between Italy’s AF, Navy Jul. 2, 2012
By TOM KINGTON & VAGO MURADIAN

“...Italy has confirmed a base sharing plan for its 30 Navy and Air Force short-takeoff, vertical-landing (STOVL) aircraft, which is set to save on maintenance and support. The fighters — 15 for the Navy and 15 for the Air Force — will be grouped at the Navy’s Grottaglie base in southern Italy, which currently hosts the Navy’s AV-8 Harrier jump jets....

...“The arrangement with the Italian Ministry of Defense, which issued the directive on this, was that the Air Force and Navy would put two squadrons of 15 aircraft in a single base, and we accepted to share the base with the Navy at Grottaglie close to where the [Italian carrier] Cavour is stationed,” said Gen. Giuseppe Bernardis, Italian Air Force chief. ... “Supportability is a key issue with two squadrons of 15 and 15 [STOVLs],” Bernardis said. “We think 30 is a number that is sustainable, and that is why we are going together. We will have common support and different advanced training.”

Bernardis said the two squadrons would not fall under one command, nor would Air Force pilots get into the habit of flying from the decks of the Cavour. “That is something we are not aiming at now, but in case of need, we are ready to do everything,” he said. “We don’t want a replica of the U.K. system where the [Royal Air Force] & Royal Navy Harriers are under one single line of command. The British model creates too many controversies between the two forces.

“But what is important is that we could switch JSF aircraft between the two services,” he said. “The aircraft will be owned by the two forces, but in case of necessity, the Air Force vision is that pilots from one force could fly the aircraft belonging to the other force.”...

...“We commissioned a Lockheed Martin study 12 years ago about mixed fleet capability and we think in many instances, the use of the F-35B could make the difference between having and not having a suitable runway for land operations,” he said....”

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... |FRONTPAGE



So, not that different to the UK solution in the end, and I'll stick a tenner on it that the aircraft get bumped between roles after a bit...

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 12:46
by spazsinbad
Not sure which country you refer to 'stobiewan' but the Italians are clear that they do not want to follow the Harrier UK example of mixing Navy and Air Force pilot/missions but will be happy to share aircraft as required. In effect the Air Force pilots can fly Air Force missions sometimes with Naval F-35Bs included. I guess the Navy pilots sit on the sidelines. And vice versa.
"...“But what is important is that we could switch JSF aircraft between the two services,” he said. “The aircraft will be owned by the two forces, but in case of necessity, the Air Force vision is that pilots from one force could fly the aircraft belonging to the other force.”...

_____________

RAF’s first operational F-35 pilot flies first training sortie 19 Mar 2013 Dave Majumdar [also a repeat from elsewhere on this forum]
"...Under the current plan, 17 Squadron, which is a joint RAF-RN unit, will conduct operational testing through 2015 to 2016, Millington says. If everything goes according schedule, the UK hopes to stand-up its first operational F-35B squadron consisting of RAF and RN personnel in Britain in 2018. But, Millington cautions, the dates are not set in stone given the F-35’s programmatic fluctuations...."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ie-383642/

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 14:49
by underpaid
Corsair, I can catagorically state that Singapore is in no ways or means inclined to operate a pseudo-carrier LHA. The only avocates of it are teenage castle in the sky carrier fanatics. Financially possible, doctrinally nonsensical and manpower wise impossible. The utility of an LHA IS acknowledged, but as a means of transport and supply, NOT as airpower projection, which means CH-47s and Pumas, not F-35Bs.

spaz I was not aware reuters was deputised to make decisions for our MINDEF. As I said, the "expected" came from an AOL writer who probably is a B-variant fan, the evaluation is still taking place and there is no variant specifically stated yet though as I mentioned, if the B-variant was chosen, it would be contrary to historical decision making processes of maximum performance for minimum possible cost, which means the F-35B's loss of capability and increased maintanence works very badly against it in the selection process. Of course "expected" is a pretty good fudge word to use. Not "ordered" or "bought". "Expected".

Remember, the F-35B is designed for amphibious CAS, doctrine that Singapore does not support, prefering to operate under a land based air projection umbrella with optional AAR. Getting toys without a firm doctrine of how to use it is like buying a car without knowing how to drive. In this case, I believe the F-35 A! will be selected as it can simply be swapped out 1 for 1 doctrine wise with the pre-existing F-16s instead of a B-VTOL variant which we have no idea how to use.

As for training in other countries... well... call it a solution to a strategic liability, limited airspace is not the only reason for it.

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 16:02
by Conan
underpaid wrote:Corsair, I can catagorically state that Singapore is in no ways or means inclined to operate a pseudo-carrier LHA. The only avocates of it are teenage castle in the sky carrier fanatics. Financially possible, doctrinally nonsensical and manpower wise impossible. The utility of an LHA IS acknowledged, but as a means of transport and supply, NOT as airpower projection, which means CH-47s and Pumas, not F-35Bs.

spaz I was not aware reuters was deputised to make decisions for our MINDEF. As I said, the "expected" came from an AOL writer who probably is a B-variant fan, the evaluation is still taking place and there is no variant specifically stated yet though as I mentioned, if the B-variant was chosen, it would be contrary to historical decision making processes of maximum performance for minimum possible cost, which means the F-35B's loss of capability and increased maintanence works very badly against it in the selection process. Of course "expected" is a pretty good fudge word to use. Not "ordered" or "bought". "Expected".

Remember, the F-35B is designed for amphibious CAS, doctrine that Singapore does not support, prefering to operate under a land based air projection umbrella with optional AAR. Getting toys without a firm doctrine of how to use it is like buying a car without knowing how to drive. In this case, I believe the F-35 A! will be selected as it can simply be swapped out 1 for 1 doctrine wise with the pre-existing F-16s instead of a B-VTOL variant which we have no idea how to use.

As for training in other countries... well... call it a solution to a strategic liability, limited airspace is not the only reason for it.


To be somewhat fair to the F-35B model, CTOL operations will form the overwhelming bread and butter of it's useage.

Who is going to want to pay for all that extra fuel for vertical landings, when you can just land the thing on a normal runway, 97% of the time?

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 18:45
by luke_sandoz
"WASHINGTON: Singapore is expected to announce sometime in the next 10 days that it plans to buy its first squadron --12 planes -- of some 75 of Lockheed Martin's F-35Bs"

a story that will be avoided by Canadian journalists due to the "good news for the JSF program" angle they must avoid.

http://defense.aol.com/2013/03/25/singa ... 12-f-35bs/

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 18:55
by raameagle
Singapore has actually had 32 F-15SGs delivered, they just haven't announced the order for the last eight aircraft.

Regards

Mark

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 19:04
by underpaid
No surprise there, the government believes in underdeclaring assets. Just in case.

Don't think most people understand the degree of paranoia Singapore works under. OTOH, it was come by the hard way. What was that old joke? Even paranoids have enemies.

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 19:27
by hb_pencil
underpaid wrote:Corsair, I can catagorically state that Singapore is in no ways or means inclined to operate a pseudo-carrier LHA. The only avocates of it are teenage castle in the sky carrier fanatics. Financially possible, doctrinally nonsensical and manpower wise impossible. The utility of an LHA IS acknowledged, but as a means of transport and supply, NOT as airpower projection, which means CH-47s and Pumas, not F-35Bs.

spaz I was not aware reuters was deputised to make decisions for our MINDEF. As I said, the "expected" came from an AOL writer who probably is a B-variant fan, the evaluation is still taking place and there is no variant specifically stated yet though as I mentioned, if the B-variant was chosen, it would be contrary to historical decision making processes of maximum performance for minimum possible cost, which means the F-35B's loss of capability and increased maintanence works very badly against it in the selection process. Of course "expected" is a pretty good fudge word to use. Not "ordered" or "bought". "Expected".

Remember, the F-35B is designed for amphibious CAS, doctrine that Singapore does not support, prefering to operate under a land based air projection umbrella with optional AAR. Getting toys without a firm doctrine of how to use it is like buying a car without knowing how to drive. In this case, I believe the F-35 A! will be selected as it can simply be swapped out 1 for 1 doctrine wise with the pre-existing F-16s instead of a B-VTOL variant which we have no idea how to use.

As for training in other countries... well... call it a solution to a strategic liability, limited airspace is not the only reason for it.


I think you and corsair are somewhat unclear on this issue. Certainly seaborne operations are a key aspect of the F-35B's operations. However it is by no means the only part. Up until last year the Air Force was considering the Bee as a A-10 replacement. If you look to at the US Marine Air (AV-8 and F/A-18s), and Harrier users like the UK, the vast vast majority of their "warfighting" has been from land bases, not ships. So yes, the Bee can operate from vessels, but its a very potent CAS/strike aircraft that will probably operate mostly from ground bases with or without long runways.

Re:

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 20:06
by weasel1962
I note a significant amount of a Bee pilot's training goes into OCA, DCA and other anti-air warfare elements, notwithstanding the strike/CAS capabilities. Does the USAF focus that much time on the AAW elements for an A-10 pilot?

RE: Re:

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 20:53
by underpaid
hb, point there, just because it is designed for amphibious CAS does not mean it will always be used that way, but the rest still stands. I can only plead that the "THEY ARE GETTING A CARRIER!!!" nonsense got me too distracted along those lines.

I have severe doubts that Singapore will accept the loss of a fair chunk of the F-35's fuel tank as well as increased maintanence just for a VTOL capability it does not have a doctrine for and can easily do without.

weasel, I don't think so, but IIRC they also added a gunsight for A2A use of the Avenger so it might be a self-defence issue.

RE: Re:

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 20:56
by spazsinbad
'weasel1962' may I ask where you get this F-35B training information from please? Thanks.
"I note a significant amount of a Bee pilot's training goes into OCA, DCA and other anti-air warfare elements, notwithstanding the strike/CAS capabilities."

Re: RE: Re:

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 21:27
by hb_pencil
underpaid wrote:hb, point there, just because it is designed for amphibious CAS does not mean it will always be used that way, but the rest still stands. I can only plead that the "THEY ARE GETTING A CARRIER!!!" nonsense got me too distracted along those lines.

I have severe doubts that Singapore will accept the loss of a fair chunk of the F-35's fuel tank as well as increased maintanence just for a VTOL capability it does not have a doctrine for and can easily do without.

weasel, I don't think so, but IIRC they also added a gunsight for A2A use of the Avenger so it might be a self-defence issue.


Well if this is a F-5 replacement, then the B's range is longer than that aircraft. Its maintenance requirement should not be that much more than a F-35A either. Its really not a VTOL aircraft either (you would never use that sort of take off for operational reasons)... its STOVL, which allows you greater flexibility in basing, with like 90% of the A's performance, all of its sensor and avionics capabilities, and 115% of its cost.

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 22:06
by underpaid
hb_pencil wrote:and 115% of its cost.


:doh:

With the global economy the way it is, this is a very big point.

A 10% reduction in capability for a 15% increase in price to use runways which can already handle the full A version. Just don't see the cost effectiveness in it.

Better than the F-5 yes, but why not go for the best and get A instead?

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 22:54
by hb_pencil
underpaid wrote:
hb_pencil wrote:and 115% of its cost.


:doh:

With the global economy the way it is, this is a very big point.

A 10% reduction in capability for a 15% increase in price to use runways which can already handle the full A version. Just don't see the cost effectiveness in it.

Better than the F-5 yes, but why not go for the best and get A instead?


Because of operational flexibility. If short-field performance and basing is a major concern, then the B offers that. This article from today lays out some of that... notice it does not focus on ship-borne capabilities:

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/201 ... their-jobs

Also, I think you misunderstand why I'm arguing here. I'm not suggesting Singapore should buy a B model, rather I'm trying to understand why they might. We shall see what turns up, because you may be right and the reports are wrong. However unlike you I'm not one to dismiss it out of hand, and frankly I think commentators are too quick to judge things like this based on preconceived notions of what is useful or not. I agree with you that the A offers a better deal than the B, but then again I can also understand why you would want the operational flexibility of the B over the A. That's all.

Re: RE: Allied integration?

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2013, 01:22
by popcorn
underpaid wrote:Sorry to disappoint, but I believe Singapore will NOT be getting the B variant, the Defence Minister only mentioned F-35 without specifying variant and it was some Wild a$$ Guess from an AOL writer, Clark, that it was the B variant because "Singapore is small". Which is an unsupported leap of logic. I have extreme doubts that the RSAF will tolerate the increased maintanence and reduced capabilities of the B-variant for a VTOL capability that is ...Gucci at best for a land based air force primarily focused on air superiority.

delvo, the runway loss problem is a worry, but one that has been worked around.

Look up Singapore Exercise Torrent in youtube, got some nice shots of F-16s landing and taking off from public roads.


From what I read, Exercise Torrent required 48 hours to implement in a scenario where their air bases had been neutralized or degraded.. Perhaps the Singaporeans see this as an unacceptable window,of vulnerability while the rest of their civilian reserves are being mobilized? If so, the basing flexibility of the B jet would be advantageous in reducing said window.

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2013, 01:46
by Corsair1963
underpaid wrote:Corsair, I can catagorically state that Singapore is in no ways or means inclined to operate a pseudo-carrier LHA. The only avocates of it are teenage castle in the sky carrier fanatics. Financially possible, doctrinally nonsensical and manpower wise impossible. The utility of an LHA IS acknowledged, but as a means of transport and supply, NOT as airpower projection, which means CH-47s and Pumas, not F-35Bs.

spaz I was not aware reuters was deputised to make decisions for our MINDEF. As I said, the "expected" came from an AOL writer who probably is a B-variant fan, the evaluation is still taking place and there is no variant specifically stated yet though as I mentioned, if the B-variant was chosen, it would be contrary to historical decision making processes of maximum performance for minimum possible cost, which means the F-35B's loss of capability and increased maintanence works very badly against it in the selection process. Of course "expected" is a pretty good fudge word to use. Not "ordered" or "bought". "Expected".

Remember, the F-35B is designed for amphibious CAS, doctrine that Singapore does not support, prefering to operate under a land based air projection umbrella with optional AAR. Getting toys without a firm doctrine of how to use it is like buying a car without knowing how to drive. In this case, I believe the F-35 A! will be selected as it can simply be swapped out 1 for 1 doctrine wise with the pre-existing F-16s instead of a B-VTOL variant which we have no idea how to use.

As for training in other countries... well... call it a solution to a strategic liability, limited airspace is not the only reason for it.


I never said Singapore would operate F-35B's from a LHA. I said "most" countries that planned on operating F-35B's. Were going to use them on Small Carriers or LHA/LHD's. So, my point was with the sale of F-35B's to a land based Air Force like Singapore. Would that help spur the sale of the type to other Air Forces???

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2013, 01:58
by underpaid
48 hours to do it pretty, as in disconnecting the power to the streetlamps, informing residents of the road closure, traffic police to redirect traffic, unbolting the lamp posts and street signs and storing them etc. In times of serious war, pretty goes out the window. Give it 2 hours with a steamroller or a bulldozer. Or failing that, any convenient APC.

hd, sorry if I sounded a bit short, I do admit I probably went too far in the "NO F-35B!!" part, just very cheezed off by the irresponsible journalism.

The original statement was that the F-35 evaluation was almost complete. For some strange reason, it morphed into

1) They are going to get F-35B (apparently because it was the writer's favourite, never mind that nothing was mentioned on a variant)
and
2) They are going to get baby carriers!!! (not you Cosair, other forums)

I thought journalists were supposed to report the news, not make it up.

I can see how there is a possibility of getting a V/STOL version but it is a long shot due to the intent of that particular air force, being defensive in nature and acting from within the home capital with pre-developed infrastructure and a historical record of a decision that favoured performance over VTOL. I can't say that there isn't a chance of a mixed buy, but that would be for the future, not the initial order. Practically, I can see them replacing all the F-5s and F-16s with F-35s over a timespan of 2-4 decades, so having some orders cancelled by other countries may play out in our favour in terms of in-service date.

Depending on how desperate LM is for some good news, might even be able to get a bargain out of it. :lol:

Re: RE: Re:

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2013, 02:14
by weasel1962
spazsinbad wrote:'weasel1962' may I ask where you get this F-35B training information from please? Thanks.
"I note a significant amount of a Bee pilot's training goes into OCA, DCA and other anti-air warfare elements, notwithstanding the strike/CAS capabilities."


I'm actually surprised you asked. Thought it should be pretty obvious. There's a variety of docs eg MCWP 3-22 covering OAAW (which I think is the equivalent of OCA), DCA etc that are fundamental missions of the MAGTF aviation, the various EIS highlighting the AAW requirements as well as various USMC publications that I've noted talking specifically on F-35B training (I distinctly remembered one that mentions this but will need to dig those up). The EIS for the B basing also has a table 2-8 that details the projected training for the F-35B that includes the standard A2A eg tac intercepts 2-4, 4-6 etc.

The F-35B missions won't exactly differ greatly from existing AV-8B or F-18 ones. If you're looking for exact breakdowns of how much time pilots spend on training each specific mission, that's probably classified.

For the rest, the extra range the F-35A has over the F-35B is over-rated. The B already has slightly more range than F-16Cs with tanks. If the RSAF could survive with the F-16Cs, I don’t see an issue. I’m not so sure the A is that much better in any field except for endurance and even that advantage is eliminated if tanking exists (which it does). Whether the obvious basing flexibility and STOVL capability accorded to the B outweighs the added cost compared to the A in terms of RSAF requirements, that question would be moot if the RSAF acquires the variant. I wouldn’t pan Colin Clarke too much. If one reads his article, he’s basing his article on 2 sources familiar with the programme. Its not like he spun it out of thin air.

RE: Re: RE: Re:

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2013, 04:06
by spazsinbad
'weasel1962' why the surprise. Why do I need to know? Not something that interests me particularly given my nationality and circumstances but thanks for the tips. Any direct links to subject matter will be welcome. TIA. I do not actually scrutinise EISs for B basing given that Oz will not be getting any Bs. Again thanks. I would think the F-35B training will differ quite a bit from existing aircraft training. I'll imagine the chaps at YUMA will be figuring all this out over the next few years.

And yes Clarke/AOL.com and Reuters have some credibility and we await the announcement whenever.

RE: Re: RE: Re:

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2013, 07:59
by underpaid
weasel, I disagree about the sources part, there really is a lot of fudge in that article. The two sources confirm "an announcement will be made", but the article was very unclear about if the variant specification is part of the source confirmation.

Be honest, you see the on-site situation as well as I do. What do you think are the chances of the F-35B being selected over A?

On a more technical aspect, the greater fuel capacity of the F-35A can be a fairly serious consideration that covers more than range considering strike missions very often end up with aircraft having low energy states (low PE, low KE). The more fuel you have, the faster you can recover to a more favourable energy state by simply opening the throttle wider. More fuel reserves also means a greater sustained period of high energy maneuvers without worrying about running dry.

Either case, we'll see in a while. The announcement is coming soon after all.

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2013, 01:31
by weasel1962
President Obama is receiving the Singapore PM at the White House on April 2nd. It would provide an opportunity to sign an F-35 agreement. Contract amount is significant enough to get the ex-Brigadier General PM involved. Also pertinant to note that the previous Chief of Air Force has just been promoted to Chief of Defence Force (military head of the country's armed forces).

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2013, 01:46
by underpaid
Wrong person. F-35 isn't manufactured by the US government, it is produced by Lockheed Martin, a private company. Obama is nowhere near the right person needed to make a deal with, though he could be a very useful cog greaser.

Where Obama MAY help is with that damn P.O.S ITAR regulations and getting Congress to sign off on foreign sales, though as the budget debate has demonstrated, Congress tends to have a mind of its own. Or rather, 500 minds of their own.

Though I'm really going to roll my eyes if they end that standard form with the old "Sale is not expected to affect the balance of power in the region."

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2013, 02:05
by count_to_10
underpaid wrote:Wrong person. F-35 isn't manufactured by the US government, it is produced by Lockheed Martin, a private company. Obama is nowhere near the right person needed to make a deal with, though he could be a very useful cog greaser.

Where Obama MAY help is with that damn P.O.S ITAR regulations and getting Congress to sign off on foreign sales, though as the budget debate has demonstrated, Congress tends to have a mind of its own. Or rather, 500 minds of their own.

Though I'm really going to roll my eyes if they end that standard form with the old "Sale is not expected to affect the balance of power in the region."

And, considering that whole Olympic debacle...

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2013, 04:14
by spazsinbad
I wonder if I can see this Singaporean F-35B study one day?

F-35B starts critical tests in comeback attempt 05 Oct 2011 Stephen Trimble
"...Meanwhile, Singapore - a security co-operation participant in the F-35 joint programme office - has launched studies aimed at considering the STOVL variant, said Gregg Pyers, lift fan programme director for UK-based Rolls-Royce...."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... pt-362941/
________________

Singapore special report Feb 2012
“...Analysts and industry experts interviewed for this article are all but unanimous that Singapore will one day obtain Lockheed Martin's F-35. Like Israel, Singapore is a tier four "security co-operation participant" in the programme. While it cannot influence the design of the aircraft, it has access to programme information and can request special studies. Sources say Singapore could also be interested in the F-35B, the type's short take-off and vertical landing variant...."

http://www.flightglobal.com/Features/si ... l/defence/

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2013, 00:27
by popcorn
As I expected, no Singaporean Winslow Wheeler to rant and stir the pot and add some drama.. rather boring in contrast to Canada and Oz. :)

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2013, 01:45
by weasel1962
Interesting nuggest in a new request for AMRAAMs

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/ ... _13-03.pdf

"...requested a possible sale of 100 AIM-120C7 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM), AMRAAM Programmable Advanced System Interface Simulator (PASIS), 10 AMRAAM Spare Guidance Sections, 18 AN/AVS-9(V) Night Vision Goggles, H-764G with GEM V Selective Availability Anti-Spoofing Module (SAASM), Common Munitions Built-in-Test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE-Plus) in support of a Direct Commercial Sale of new F-15SG aircraft."

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Noted only 2 request for F-15SGs (Jul 28, 2006 - no number indicated and Jul 17, 2008 - for follow on 12 a/c). Not exactly new so maybe a new DCS request for F-15SGs may follow this announcement. If so, this may suggest a similar competition ala Korea.

Unread postPosted: 06 Apr 2013, 01:42
by popcorn
weasel1962 wrote:Interesting nuggest in a new request for AMRAAMs

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/ ... _13-03.pdf

"...requested a possible sale of 100 AIM-120C7 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM), AMRAAM Programmable Advanced System Interface Simulator (PASIS), 10 AMRAAM Spare Guidance Sections, 18 AN/AVS-9(V) Night Vision Goggles, H-764G with GEM V Selective Availability Anti-Spoofing Module (SAASM), Common Munitions Built-in-Test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE-Plus) in support of a Direct Commercial Sale of new F-15SG aircraft."

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Noted only 2 request for F-15SGs (Jul 28, 2006 - no number indicated and Jul 17, 2008 - for follow on 12 a/c). Not exactly new so maybe a new DCS request for F-15SGs may follow this announcement. If so, this may suggest a similar competition ala Korea.


DID website speculates additional F-15SGs should the F-35 decision be pushed down the road and the jet not be available in the timeframe required by the RSAF. In any case, the missiles are needed and will be procured regardless which jet is eventually bought, It would be presumptuous for the request to mention the F-35 as this would be seen as preempting any decision by the SG.
Note there is also a request for 20 AIM-9X Blk II missiles.

Unread postPosted: 06 Apr 2013, 05:44
by spazsinbad
Singapore looks to ties that bind 06 Apr 2013 SEAH CHIANG NEE
"...Singapore to move closer militarily to the United States years ago by offering passing facilities for its air force and navy, including aircraft carriers.

Hsien Loong’s visit probably has another purpose. Singapore is reportedly on the verge of making a decision to buy America’s F-35 fighter jets to upgrade its air force.

Singapore’s defence minister Ng Eng Hen said last week that the air force “has identified the F-35 as a suitable aircraft to further modernise our fighter fleet”.

“Our F-5s are nearing the end of their operational life and our F-16s are at their mid-way mark,” he said in parliament. “We are now in the final stages of evaluating the F-35.”

The order could be for 12 F-35Bs (estimated cost: US$2.8bil (RM8.6bil)), which can take off and land vertically, a useful feature given Singapore’s limited air space.

However, it is not known if there are further plans to buy more in future. Reuters quoted industry and US sources as saying Singapore may buy up to 75 F-35Bs eventually.

Singapore was the world’s fifth-largest importer of conventional weapons in 2008-12, at 4% of the global total, the Stockholm Inter­national Peace Research Institute says. It trailed behind India, China, Pakistan and South Korea.

The visiting [USofA] Hsien Loong was assured by US Defence Secretary Chuck Hagel that the United States remained “committed towards the Asia-Pacific region”.

Of growing US focus is China’s first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, which is projecting the country’s new maritime power...."

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?fi ... &sec=focus

Unread postPosted: 08 Apr 2013, 13:41
by popcorn
I'm curious if Malaysia had considered the possibility of acquiring the F-35 for it's next batch of jets?

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2013, 04:11
by maus92
Singapore’s RSAF Decides to Fly Like An Eagle

Some speculation by DID that Singapore will buy 12 more F-15SGs rather than 12 F-35Bs as reported by AOL Defense.

"April 4/13: AMRAAM + F-15SGs. The US DSCA announces [PDF] Singapore’s request to buy 100 AIM-120C7 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) – but it’s the context for this $210 million export request that makes it important. Sure, Singapore also wants 10 AMRAAM Spare Guidance Sections and an AMRAAM Programmable Advanced System Interface Simulator (PASIS). They also want 18 AN/AVS-9(V) Night Vision Goggles, the H-764G GPS with GEM-V Selective Availability Anti-Spoofing Module (SAASM), and Common Munitions Built-in-Test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE-Plus) “in support of a Direct Commercial Sale of new F-15SG aircraft.”

In other words, they’re about to buy another 12 F-15SGs as F-5 replacements and grow their fleet to 36, instead of buying 12 F-35Bs that won’t be useful until 2018 or later."

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/sin ... gle-01141/

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2013, 04:25
by popcorn
maus92 wrote:Singapore’s RSAF Decides to Fly Like An Eagle

Some speculation by DID that Singapore will buy 12 more F-15SGs rather than 12 F-35Bs as reported by AOL Defense.

"April 4/13: AMRAAM + F-15SGs. The US DSCA announces [PDF] Singapore’s request to buy 100 AIM-120C7 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) – but it’s the context for this $210 million export request that makes it important. Sure, Singapore also wants 10 AMRAAM Spare Guidance Sections and an AMRAAM Programmable Advanced System Interface Simulator (PASIS). They also want 18 AN/AVS-9(V) Night Vision Goggles, the H-764G GPS with GEM-V Selective Availability Anti-Spoofing Module (SAASM), and Common Munitions Built-in-Test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE-Plus) “in support of a Direct Commercial Sale of new F-15SG aircraft.”

In other words, they’re about to buy another 12 F-15SGs as F-5 replacements and grow their fleet to 36, instead of buying 12 F-35Bs that won’t be useful until 2018 or later."

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/sin ... gle-01141/


see my last post previous page

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2013, 04:36
by maus92
popcorn wrote:
maus92 wrote:Singapore’s RSAF Decides to Fly Like An Eagle

Some speculation by DID that Singapore will buy 12 more F-15SGs rather than 12 F-35Bs as reported by AOL Defense.

"April 4/13: AMRAAM + F-15SGs. The US DSCA announces [PDF] Singapore’s request to buy 100 AIM-120C7 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) – but it’s the context for this $210 million export request that makes it important. Sure, Singapore also wants 10 AMRAAM Spare Guidance Sections and an AMRAAM Programmable Advanced System Interface Simulator (PASIS). They also want 18 AN/AVS-9(V) Night Vision Goggles, the H-764G GPS with GEM-V Selective Availability Anti-Spoofing Module (SAASM), and Common Munitions Built-in-Test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE-Plus) “in support of a Direct Commercial Sale of new F-15SG aircraft.”

In other words, they’re about to buy another 12 F-15SGs as F-5 replacements and grow their fleet to 36, instead of buying 12 F-35Bs that won’t be useful until 2018 or later."

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/sin ... gle-01141/


see my last post previous page


Oops, missed that - sorry Spaz..., I mean Popcorn :)

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2013, 05:53
by weasel1962
DiD may be reading too much into the announcement. The lack of the word "proposed" before DCS sale and the addition of "new" in front of F-15SG gives the impression that additional F-15SGs have already been sold to Singapore. They have in 2008 but suggestions that the RSAF has selected the F-15SG over the F-35 seems premature. The DSCA filing is essentially an announcement for Amraams, not aircraft. I've seen pretty sloppy announcements in the past (GBU-28 when it should be GBU-38 as an example) and whether this is the case is unclear.

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2013, 19:52
by spazsinbad
Is Not Enough: Reflections on China’s Military Trajectory and the U.S. Pivot 25 Nov 2012
Richard D. Fisher, Jr. | Senior Fellow, International Assessment and Strategy Center

http://www.strategycenter.net/docLib/20 ... 112512.pdf (0.7Mb)

"...The F-35B also offers key allies like Japan, South Korea and Australia the quickest path to acquiring their own naval air power. All have or are building large LDH type ships that could, some with modification, possibly accommodate a small number of F-35Bs, and using this fighter also offer the least expensive route toward building dedicated aircraft carriers. As the PLA Navy could have up to five conventional and nuclear powered carriers in operation by the early 2030s, it may become necessary for Washington to consider encouraging its key allies to build their own carrier battle groups. For Singapore, widely expected to buy the F-35 and Taiwan, which has also signaled its interest, the F-35B offers 5th generation performance plus tactical concealment advantages, as it could also be employed from the protective cover of U.S. naval formations with carriers or LHD size ships...."
_________________________

In Focus: Singapore steps up deterrent capabilities Greg Waldron, Flight International, February 1, 2012

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... es-367582/

"...Analysts and industry experts interviewed for this article are all but unanimous that Singapore will one day obtain Lockheed Martin's F-35. Like Israel, Singapore is a tier four "security co-operation participant" in the programme. While it cannot influence the design of the aircraft, it has access to programme information and can request special studies. Sources say Singapore could also be interested in the F-35B, the type's short take-off and vertical landing variant...."

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2013, 22:03
by spazsinbad
Pentagon sees Singapore's decision about buying F-35s by summer 24 Apr 2013 (Reporting by Andrea Shalal-Esa; Editing by Phil Berlowitz)
"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Singapore has shown "tremendous interest" in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter developed by Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) and will likely decide by this summer whether to buy the new warplane, the Pentagon's F-35 program chief said on Wednesday.

Air Force Lieutenant General Christopher Bogdan told a subcommittee of the Senate Armed Services Committee that he expected Singapore to decide by this summer whether to join the multinational fighter plane program.

He said he was also cautiously optimistic that South Korea could decide to buy the radar-evading F-35 in its 60-fighter competition, with a decision expected there in June."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/ ... sinessNews

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2013, 21:01
by spazsinbad
Also quoted on another thread here today: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-24437.html

Defense Writers Group: A Project of the Center for Media & Security, New York & Washington, D.C.
Interview: General Herbert J. “Hawk” Carlisle Commander, Pacific Air Forces 29 July 2013
“DWG:...Then you also mentioned Singapore. We reported and heard that they are, they’re part of the F-35 program already, but that there was some movement to kind of complete an inertial[sic] sale. Can you give us an update on —

General Carlisle: I talked to their CDF [Chief of Defense Force], Chee Meng. I was just in Singapore. Singapore’s decided to buy the B model, the VSTOL variant to begin with. But I don’t know where they’re at in putting it into their budget. I know that’s a decision that’s been made and that’s why they’re part of the program, but I don’t know where they’re at in putting that in the budget....”
page 13 of 18
http://www.airforcemag.com/DWG/Document ... rlisle.pdf (200Kb)

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2013, 21:09
by gtx
Hopefully it will be finalised and formally announced soon.

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2013, 09:26
by weasel1962
Air Forces Monthly July 2013 issue (pg 54) stated that Singapore just ordered a 3rd sqn of F-15SGs. If so, any F-35 order could actually be a few years down the road e.g. future F-16 replacement, rather than an immediate pending order. This would be consistent with communications coming out from Singapore (not ready, no rush, no budget yet...etc).

Re:

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2013, 06:43
by weasel1962
Article in The Diplomat on F-35B acquisition by Singapore.

http://thediplomat.com/2013/10/18/singa ... e-fighter/

RE: Re:

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2013, 07:39
by Corsair1963
The odds are that Singapore will purchase F-35B's and/or F-35A's at some point...........

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 10 Dec 2013, 17:45
by spazsinbad
Singapore officials to view F-35B at Arizona's Luke AFB 10 Dec 2013 AP
"GLENDALE, Ariz. -- Singapore defense officials visiting Luke Air Force Base will get a look at a type of U.S.-built fighters that the Asian nation may purchase.

Luke Air Force Base officials said at least one F-35B from Marine Corps Air Station Yuma on Tuesday will fly into Luke, a pilot-training base located in the Phoenix area.

Luke officials said the Singapore officials are at the base for a training exercise being conducted there and at the Barry M. Goldwater Range in southwestern Arizona...."

http://www.ktar.com/?nid=22&sid=1683964

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2013, 02:50
by spazsinbad
F-35B aircraft spotted at Luke Air Force Base 11 Dec 2013 Jason Kadah
"LUKE AIR FORCE BASE, AZ (CBS5) - The F-35B was the star of the show at Luke Air Force Base Tuesday morning.

"I heard a rumor it was going to be here for the Singapore guys to check it out, so I wanted to see it in action and I came out, see if I could get a photograph," said USAF veteran Richard Arthur.

It's a fighter jet, in the air. But it's not really moving. And that's one of the features of the F-35B.

"The ability to hover and turn while it's hovering, it's just like... it's crazy," said 16-year old Jared Lovesee.

The aircraft, based at Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, was flexing its muscle for defense officials from Singapore, who were visiting the base. The country is considering purchasing F-35s in the future.

"I know it didn't deliver full performance, but it was still exciting to see the plane fly," joked Arthur.

The F-35B is the "short takeoff and vertical landing" variant of the jet developed for the U.S. Marine Corps. The F-35A is the "conventional takeoff and landing" aircraft used by the Air Force.

Luke Air Force Base will be the primary training location for the F-35A. Many believe it's the F-35 program that saved the base from closure.

"I don't want Luke to close, I'm retired Air Force. We depend on Luke," said retired USAF veteran Mike Smith.

With 144 F-35As arriving over the next 10 years, Luke will not only train American pilots, but will also serve as an international training site...."

http://www.kpho.com/story/24186998/f-35 ... force-base

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 11 Dec 2013, 08:56
by spazsinbad
Singapore officials view F-35 jets in U.S. ahead of possible purchase 11 Dec 2013 REUTERS
"Dec 11 (Reuters) - Senior defense officials from Singapore got to see U.S. Marine Corps F-35 fighter jets in action on Tuesday at the Luke Air Force Base in Arizona as the Asian country mulls buying the Lockheed Martin Corp planes, a base spokeswoman said.

The aircraft flew to Luke Air Force Base, a pilot-training center near Phoenix, from Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, which is about 175 miles (280 km) away. Yuma is home to the first operational squadron of F-35 fighter jets, said First Lieutenant Candice Dillitte, a spokeswoman for the Arizona base.

The Singapore officials visited the base as part of Forging Sabre, a Singapore armed forces exercise taking place at Luke and at a nearby training range, according to a news release.

Singapore is considering purchasing F-35s in the future, but has not yet committed to an order or the timetable for when it may come. The U.S. government has already approved a letter of agreement for Singapore's possible F-35 orders, which had been expected months ago.

One U.S. defense official said Singapore's desire to see the F-35Bs in action underscored the country's interest in the new warplane, although it remained unclear when a deal would be signed.

Another source familiar with the process said it was unlikely that Singapore would announce any F-35 orders at the Singapore air show in February...."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/ ... 7V20131211

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 12 Dec 2013, 04:00
by Corsair1963
spazsinbad wrote:Singapore officials view F-35 jets in U.S. ahead of possible purchase 11 Dec 2013 REUTERS
"Dec 11 (Reuters) - Senior defense officials from Singapore got to see U.S. Marine Corps F-35 fighter jets in action on Tuesday at the Luke Air Force Base in Arizona as the Asian country mulls buying the Lockheed Martin Corp planes, a base spokeswoman said.

The aircraft flew to Luke Air Force Base, a pilot-training center near Phoenix, from Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, which is about 175 miles (280 km) away. Yuma is home to the first operational squadron of F-35 fighter jets, said First Lieutenant Candice Dillitte, a spokeswoman for the Arizona base.

The Singapore officials visited the base as part of Forging Sabre, a Singapore armed forces exercise taking place at Luke and at a nearby training range, according to a news release.

Singapore is considering purchasing F-35s in the future, but has not yet committed to an order or the timetable for when it may come. The U.S. government has already approved a letter of agreement for Singapore's possible F-35 orders, which had been expected months ago.

One U.S. defense official said Singapore's desire to see the F-35Bs in action underscored the country's interest in the new warplane, although it remained unclear when a deal would be signed.

Another source familiar with the process said it was unlikely that Singapore would announce any F-35 orders at the Singapore air show in February...."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/ ... 7V20131211



Sounds like Singapore maybe getting closer not farther from a decision on the F-35??? :wink:

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2013, 12:35
by popcorn
Looks like later rather than sooner


http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... er-394112/

Singapore's in no hurry to purchase F-35s: defence minister

Singapore’s defence minister has reaffirmed the nation’s interest in the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), but says there is no great rush to order the type.

In a joint press conference with his US counterpart in Washington DC, Singapore defence minister Ng Eng Hen said Singapore is “in no particular hurry because our [Lockheed Martin] F-16s are still very operational, they are due for upgrades but it is a serious consideration…”

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 17 Dec 2013, 21:52
by spazsinbad
Hagel: U.S. Committed to Singapore Relationship 12 Dec 2013 Claudette Roulo, American Forces Press Service
"...Yesterday, Ng visited the Republic of Singapore Air Force's Peace Carvin II F-16 Fighting Falcon training detachment at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona, which was celebrating its 20th anniversary. The detachment also held an integrated live-fire exercise as part of the annual Forging Sabre exercise, and U.S. Marines demonstrated the F-35B Lightning II joint strike fighter aircraft, Ng said....

...Singapore is “seriously looking” at replacing its F-16 fleet with the F-35B, Ng said. But, he continued, “We're in no particular hurry, because our F-16s are still very operational, and they're due for upgrades. But it is a serious consideration.”"

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=121333

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 18 Dec 2013, 02:15
by weasel1962
If to replace F-16, an F-35B acquisition could be year 2025 or later. As per info in F-16.net, the Singapore F-16s were IOC only in 1998 which on a 30 year lifespan would last til 2028. The planned upgrade would keep these F-16s in service for the full duration. However, its not just F-16 replacement per link below (last question to defense minister).

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/press_ ... peech.html

Question: For Minister Ng, could you tell us about Singapore's interest in the F-35B. I know some of you were watching that demonstrations this week in Arizona.

Dr Ng: I've said in Parliament during the last budget that Singapore is seriously looking at the F-35s to replace our F-5s. We're in no particular hurry because our F-16s are still very operational, they are due for upgrades but it is a serious consideration and during my visit here to Luke Air Base, the US marines were kind enough to have a demonstration of the F-35Bs and it's quite an engineering marvel. We recognise that there are aspects to consider and we will make our deliberate decision because as I said we are in no particular hurry but we are seriously considering.


Singapore still operates a 144 squadron of F-5s (from previously 3) that is reaching the end of operational life (since those were 1977-86 built series). The statement appears to suggest a number of options e.g. drop operational fighter squadrons to 4 and allow a capability gap before a 5th sqn is procured (option 1), the 5th fighter sqn to replace the F-5 sqn (option 2) or wait until F-16s are replaced by F-35s (option 3). Option 2 imho is most likely as Singapore is unlikely to rely on only 4 squadrons for coverage (when historically it operated 6, now 5). Option 2 is however dependent on how long the remaining F-5s can last. Older F-5s in Taiwan, Brazil service are still flying. The Singapore F-5 upgrade provided PGM and avionics capability that was intended to keep the F-5s in service up to 2009. With high airframe service life of the F-16s, the Singapore air force is clearly keeping the F-16s in the air to minimise and preserve remaining flight time of the F-5s. This hints at a possible wait until Blk 3F schedule is confirmed (year?) or full rate production is authorised (2018).

An F-5 sqn replacement also hints at the eventual F-35 procurement number. With 3 sqns of F-16s and 1 sqn of F-5, that could mean potentially 4 sqn of replacements (64-96 aircraft).

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2014, 11:51
by spazsinbad
SINGAPORE: Lockheed advances with Asia F-35 roll-out 12 Feb 2014 Greg Waldron
"Lockheed Martin is making steady progress introducing the F-35 fighter to the Asia-Pacific region.

President of Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Orlando Carvalho says that Lockheed and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries personnel are deep in the process of designing a final assembly and check-out (FACO) line for the conventional take-off and landing F-35A in Japan.

Tokyo announced plans to acquire 42 F-35s in late 2011. Four aircraft will be delivered from Lockheed’s Fort Worth assembly line, with the following 38 to be produced in Japan by Mitsubishi. The first four aircraft are scheduled for delivery from the second quarter of 2016, from the eighth lot of low rate initial production (LRIP) aircraft.

“We’re working with the US government to execute the programme for Japan,” says Carvalho. “We’ve done this before with Japan’s Mitsubishi F-2 fighter programme.”

Carvalho stresses that South Korea has yet to be confirmed as a customer, but that Lockheed is confident of an eventual order under the US government’s Foreign Military Sales (FMS) mechanism....

...Carvalho declines to comment on Singapore’s apparent interest in the F-35. He notes [cheekily], however, that the country’s defence minister witnessed a demonstration of the short take-off and landing (STOVL) F-35B variant during a visit to the USA in 2013. This, he feels, could “indicate a preference” for the STOVL variant."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ut-395853/

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2014, 09:12
by popcorn
Build it and they will come.
The advent of the F-35B is stirring interest in ship-borne aviation strike capability.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2014 ... nav%7Chead

Is a Light Carrier in Singapore's Future?

TAIPEI — For years, Singapore’s ST Engineering Marine has been parading a ship model of a landing helicopter dock (LHD) vessel that could handle the jump-jet variant of the F-35 joint strike fighter.

The model was most recently on display at last month’s Singapore Airshow. And while Singapore’s Ministry of Defence (MINDEF) won’t confirm that it has plans to build such a vessel, it’s also not denying it.

The model shows a variant of the Endurance-160 multirole support ship configured as an LHD.

MINDEF confirmed that Singapore has expressed an interest in the F-35B, as illustrated by the recent inspection of the aircraft by Defense Minister Ng Eng Hen during his visit to Luke Air Force Base, Ariz., in December.

In an interview transcript released by the Defense Writers Group, conducted in late July, US Air Force Gen. Herbert Carlisle disclosed that Lt. Gen. Ng Chee Meng, Singapore Defence Force chief, had told him that Singapore would procure the F-35B.

“I know that’s a decision that’s been made and that’s why they’re part of the program, but I don’t know where they’re at in putting that in the budget,” said Carlisle, commander of Pacific Air Forces.

MORE..

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2014, 09:31
by spazsinbad
Here is a PDF about the 'Endurance 160': http://www.stengg.com/download/pdf/1145 ... v3e5ef.pdf (1.8Mb)

This website explains a possible use - just as a temporary 'lily pad' and not permanent basing of F-35Bs:

Hobby - Battle Ship ! ( Endurance 160 LHD ) Variant 21 Oct 2012
Subaltern Lim
"...This is NOT an aircraft carrier. This 14,500 ton LHD is not an aircraft carrier. By adding a fix-wing ski jump run way is by no means making it an aircraft carrier. The design does not include expanding the hanger facility to accommodate the F-35B. The design does not even include an elevator sized for the JSF fighter! Without a proper hanger, the combatant fix-wing fighters are not meant to sail with the ship, with shelter, maintenance, repair and tender loving care. The F-35B can land and take off, do refueling, ordnance, toilet break for the pilot but that is about it, also to reassure our good neighbours.

Got air cover better than no air cover. Remember Prince of Wales and the Repulse?...

...Four is not enough! Need to emphasis again that the improvised LHD is not an aircraft carrier. It does not do power projection. This little red dot of an island republic do not aspire to do power projection, hearsay. Four is what the improved LHD can accommodate on its flight deck with minimal disruption to routine run of the mill heliops. For the second point, see above - Got air cover better than no air cover.

Sea Control. Not power projection is the name of the game. Securing a free SLOC (Sea Lanes Of Communication ) and protecting of merchant ships. The LHD may be stationed out at sea for extended period of time. A tactical Lily Pad? The F-35Bs' can conduct operations in conjunction with the Air-Sea Integration doctrine at further ranges with aerial refueling and they can be assured of "lily pads" for emergency or planned landing out at sea.

Why from 160 to 171? With the addition of a ski jump, the slope of the ski ramp starts to ascend on the stern positioned heli-pad to achieve an optimal angle of 12.5 degrees for certain combat load of the JSF. This construction negates a possible landing/takeoff on a gradient, thus effectively reduces the heli-lift capability in a single bound from
five to four helicopters. A "minor" inconvenient for air transport logistician and a "slight" disruption to high tempo heliborne infantry operation. Extending the stern by another 11m the 5th heli-pad can be reinstated and everybody is happy. While 03 Chinooks would probably lift an Infantry Company in a single bound but not certain if there are
areodynamic issues with multiple of them taking off from the Endurance 171 flight deck."

Source: http://3719n-2633e.blogspot.com.au/2012 ... 0-lhd.html


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5v5Sl1YZRTk/U ... ssiles.bmp
&
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gIyz0Mvmp8Y/U ... t+deck.bmp

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2014, 11:28
by popcorn
Definitely speculative at this point but fun to think of what could be. All depends on how Singapore sees it's security needs evolving and if putting STOVL jets aboard ship makes sense down the road. In that case, modifying the existing design or even a completely new one may not be an impediment.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2014, 06:49
by Corsair1963
Why doesn't Singapore just go with an enlarged design that could accommodate the F-35B. Especially, consider steel is cheap........ :roll:

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2014, 07:09
by weasel1962
The idea is not new (see thread below 5 years back started by yours truly under a different nick).

http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/355608

The ship design was apparently prompted by Defence Ministry asking if local industry (Singapore technologies) had the capacity to build a LHD (that was technically F-35B capable). The endurance 160 design is just a teaser, like they did for the Fearless class replacement PVs (now known as LMV) to demonstrate that it is actually feasible. If the ministry does go ahead, an actual design would be different. Due to the current LPDs (8000 tons not 14000 as quoted by DN) being commissioned only in year 2000/2001, the replacement is not due for at least another decade though there were discussions about selling it early to free up personnel for the LHD. The idea had a bit of traction because the previous defence minister was the ex-chief of navy and is now the current deputy prime minister.

Parts of the ideas proposed in the thread have begun to materialise from last year with the announcement of the closure of an airbase for consolidation and the interest shown in the F-35B variant. Such planning takes decades to materialise e.g. the airbase will only close in 2030. Hence any LHD, which is still speculative at this time, or even the F-35B could take awhile to happen.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2014, 09:09
by weasel1962
Quote from the DN article
Costs could increase as much as 25 percent to buy and operate the F-35B relative to the standard takeoff version. This would mean fewer planes, Aboulafia said.


In America, land is cheap. In Singapore, the land cost in areas surrounding the airbases hits ~US$150-US$180 million per hectare today (based on actual land sale prices). In town, land prices can hit US$1 billion per hectare.

The decision to shift the airbase frees up 800 hectares. How much is the 25% added cost compared to that 800 hectares? How many F-35Bs and LHDs can that 800 hectares afford? If you were the air force & military heads, what would you have asked for in return to give up such a valuable property? I'd ask for a couple of LHDs and as many F-35Bs I can base. The Singapore air force could buy the F-35A but it would have to keep its airbases. Already, its remaining airbases have to operate the fixed wing F-15s/16s in inventory. Seen in that light, is it surprising Singapore is looking at the B variant?

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2014, 09:41
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:Quote from the DN article
Costs could increase as much as 25 percent to buy and operate the F-35B relative to the standard takeoff version. This would mean fewer planes, Aboulafia said.


In America, land is cheap. In Singapore, the land cost in areas surrounding the airbases hits ~US$150-US$180 million per hectare today (based on actual land sale prices). In town, land prices can hit US$1 billion per hectare.

The decision to shift the airbase frees up 800 hectares. How much is the 25% added cost compared to that 800 hectares? How many F-35Bs and LHDs can that 800 hectares afford? If you were the air force & military heads, what would you have asked for in return to give up such a valuable property? I'd ask for a couple of LHDs and as many F-35Bs I can base. The Singapore air force could buy the F-35A but it would have to keep its airbases. Already, its remaining airbases have to operate the fixed wing F-15s/16s in inventory. Seen in that light, is it surprising Singapore is looking at the B variant?


Well, nothing says they won't order some F-35B's sometime after the initial order of F-35A's. Good bet Singapore will end up buying both just like a number of other countries.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2014, 20:02
by weasel1962
First official note of possible LHD by 2030

Singapore Defense Minister budget speech
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/press_ ... peech.html

We are therefore studying carefully the need for larger LSTs that can carry more helicopters as well as more cargo.


Also in bad news for LM, F-35 buy still not decided yet but will be in service by 2030. F-15 and F-16 to remain mainstay of combat fleet in medium term and F-16 is expected to still be flying in 2030. So any F-35 buy numbers, if selected, will be limited until 2020-2030. F-16 AESA upgrade is confirmed with A-330 tanker selected to replace existing KC-135s.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2014, 06:21
by spazsinbad
Singapore probably has up to 40 F-15SGs
24 Aug 2014 Greg Waldron | Flightglobal.com

"Evidence that Singapore has far more than the officially claimed 24 Boeing F-15SG fighter aircraft has emerged, although the precise number of airframes has yet to be ascertained....

...If Singapore has 40 F-15SGs, the country’s fighter fleet numbers about 126 aircraft. Flightglobal’s World Air Forces directory shows that Singapore also operates 60 Lockheed Martin F-16s and 26 Northrop F-5s. The country plans to upgrade the F-16 fleet, and replace the F-5s with the F-35 – the country has indicated a preference for the short take-off vertical landing F-35B variant.

Singapore’s secrecy about its F-15SG fleet could stem from the fact that the type is, by a very large margin, the most effective combat aircraft in Southeast Asia – especially coupled with the high quality of Singapore pilots.

Singapore’s F-15SGs are split between Singapore and the USAF’s Mountain Home base in Idaho, where a training detachment is stationed."

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... gs-402971/

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2014, 09:13
by Corsair1963
Has no effect on plans to procure F-35's. Already seen a flood of bloggers jumping to conclusion that it somehow meant Singapore was no longer interested in the F-35???? :doh:

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 02:54
by weasel1962
Corsair1963 wrote:Has no effect on plans to procure F-35's. Already seen a flood of bloggers jumping to conclusion that it somehow meant Singapore was no longer interested in the F-35???? :doh:


It will have some effect on possible timing of F-35 acquisition. If the F-15s represent F-5 replacement, then if the RSAF does not add a squadron, then this would mean the F-35 will be acquired only as F-16 replacements. With the F-16 due for an upgrade/SLEP, an F-35 acquisition may only happen at least a decade from now (notwithstanding potential issues with the 2 seater F-16s which occupy 2/3rds of the RSAF F-16 fleet). Even if there is a buy until then, its not going to be more than a sqn. Not good news for LM.

If it was only 32, then maybe it won't be an F-5 replacement since 8-10 are kept in MHAFB for training so the remaining 22-24 would form a full sqn back home. 40 = more likely 2 small sqns back home. DiD was skeptical what the 8 serials of FAA registration represents. I did a check of the FAA database and couldn't find any other F-15SG serials for past F-15SGs.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 03:36
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Has no effect on plans to procure F-35's. Already seen a flood of bloggers jumping to conclusion that it somehow meant Singapore was no longer interested in the F-35???? :doh:


It will have some effect on possible timing of F-35 acquisition. If the F-15s represent F-5 replacement, then if the RSAF does not add a squadron, then this would mean the F-35 will be acquired only as F-16 replacements. With the F-16 due for an upgrade/SLEP, an F-35 acquisition may only happen at least a decade from now (notwithstanding potential issues with the 2 seater F-16s which occupy 2/3rds of the RSAF F-16 fleet). Even if there is a buy until then, its not going to be more than a sqn. Not good news for LM.

If it was only 32, then maybe it won't be an F-5 replacement since 8-10 are kept in MHAFB for training so the remaining 22-24 would form a full sqn back home. 40 = more likely 2 small sqns back home. DiD was skeptical what the 8 serials of FAA registration represents. I did a check of the FAA database and couldn't find any other F-15SG serials for past F-15SGs.



I've seen nothing from the Singapore Government or Air Force that remotely supports your view.....

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 03:40
by weasel1962
Corsair1963 wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Has no effect on plans to procure F-35's. Already seen a flood of bloggers jumping to conclusion that it somehow meant Singapore was no longer interested in the F-35???? :doh:


It will have some effect on possible timing of F-35 acquisition. If the F-15s represent F-5 replacement, then if the RSAF does not add a squadron, then this would mean the F-35 will be acquired only as F-16 replacements. With the F-16 due for an upgrade/SLEP, an F-35 acquisition may only happen at least a decade from now (notwithstanding potential issues with the 2 seater F-16s which occupy 2/3rds of the RSAF F-16 fleet). Even if there is a buy until then, its not going to be more than a sqn. Not good news for LM.

If it was only 32, then maybe it won't be an F-5 replacement since 8-10 are kept in MHAFB for training so the remaining 22-24 would form a full sqn back home. 40 = more likely 2 small sqns back home. DiD was skeptical what the 8 serials of FAA registration represents. I did a check of the FAA database and couldn't find any other F-15SG serials for past F-15SGs.



I've seen nothing from the Singapore Government or Air Force that remotely supports your view.....


And what view might that be, since a lot is stated, that is not supported? I'll be glad to share exact releases supporting each statement but clearly a "everything is wrong" retarded response does not actually warrant a response.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 04:14
by spazsinbad
'weasel1962' this 'apparently' unsupported assertion [yes I know you said "IF" but why?] would be a good place to start especially when on previous page the article reporter says that the F-35s will replace the F-5s:
ARTICLE quote:
"... The country plans to upgrade the F-16 fleet, and replace the F-5s with the F-35 – the country has indicated a preference for the short take-off vertical landing F-35B variant...."
"'weasel1962': ...If the F-15s represent F-5 replacement..."

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 05:20
by weasel1962
spazsinbad wrote:'weasel1962' this 'apparently' unsupported assertion [yes I know you said "IF" but why?] would be a good place to start especially when on previous page the article reporter says that the F-35s will replace the F-5s:
ARTICLE quote:
"... The country plans to upgrade the F-16 fleet, and replace the F-5s with the F-35 – the country has indicated a preference for the short take-off vertical landing F-35B variant...."
"'weasel1962': ...If the F-15s represent F-5 replacement..."


There is a difference between "seriously looking" at replacing the F-5 with the F-35 vs have decided to replace it. How reporters read it vs what the Government actually says are 2 different issues. The last public announcement was on Dec 2013 and that was "seriously looking".

On the other hand, the F-15SGs have replaced F-5S/Ts. That's exactly what 149 sqn was operating before it was replaced by the F-15s. That created some buzz cos the Government had earlier announced that the F-15SGs were intended to go to 142 sqn which were operating skyhawks but was eventually disbanded.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 05:26
by spazsinbad
How about a link to that info then?

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 05:29
by weasel1962
spazsinbad wrote:How about a link to that info then?


You guys need to be more specific. What info?

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 05:40
by spazsinbad
1st para: A LINK to last public announcement (in bold) would be nice.
"There is a difference between "seriously looking" at replacing the F-5 with the F-35 vs have decided to replace it. How reporters read it vs what the Government actually says are 2 different issues. The last public announcement was on Dec 2013 and that was "seriously looking"...."

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 05:51
by weasel1962
spazsinbad wrote:1st para: A LINK to last public announcement (in bold) would be nice.
"There is a difference between "seriously looking" at replacing the F-5 with the F-35 vs have decided to replace it. How reporters read it vs what the Government actually says are 2 different issues. The last public announcement was on Dec 2013 and that was "seriously looking"...."


See my post on 17 Dec 2013 on page 6 of this thread which has the link.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 06:18
by spazsinbad
Here is the quote I hope - Dr.Ng sure is the obsfucator here from your link mentioned:
"...Dr Ng: I've said in Parliament during the last budget that Singapore is seriously looking at the F-35s to replace our F-5s. We're in no particular hurry because our F-16s are still very operational, they are due for upgrades but it is a serious consideration...."

Singapore is in no hurry to replace F-5s because their F-16s are still very operational? Cool - vividly understandable.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 06:37
by spazsinbad
I have no idea if the F-5s are still flying / operational - anyway perhaps they will be replaced by F-15SGs according to this report... It seems that obsfucation is the way of speaking in Singaporean military matters - so if on the one hand this then on the other hand something completely different. I can go with that - it leaves room for a tonne of speculation - noice.
Singapore Quietly Expanding Fighter Force
25 Aug 2014 Mike Yeo, USNI

"...In addition, on 5-6 August 2014, Boeing took out eight civil aircraft registrations with the Federal Aviation Administration for what it described as F-15SG aircraft. If these indeed represent an additional batch of F-15SGs acquired by Singapore, it would allow Singapore to form a second squadron of F-15SGs in Singapore, most likely to replace a handful of upgraded Northrop F-5S/T Tiger II interceptors which are due to be retired in the near future.

Notoriously secretive with its military matters, Singapore has remained tight-lipped about the number of F-15s it actually has, other to say that it has sufficient numbers to meet its defense needs. Similarly, Boeing has been coy about discussing numbers regarding its F-15SG program...."

Source: http://news.usni.org/2014/08/25/singapo ... hter-force

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 07:37
by weasel1962
spazsinbad wrote:I have no idea if the F-5s are still flying / operational - anyway perhaps they will be replaced by F-15SGs according to this report... It seems that obsfucation is the way of speaking in Singaporean military matters - so if on the one hand this then on the other hand something completely different. I can go with that - it leaves room for a tonne of speculation - noice.


One fact is the Singapore F-5s are still flying, and since everything I state appears to need a link, here's one from Cope Tiger in March.
http://www.pacaf.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123403175

One might need a long wait for any official confirmation of squadron decommissioning. 141 sqn (Another F-5 sqn) was decommissioned in 2005. That has not been officially confirmed as of today. A good mystery is what sells defence mags.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 07:46
by spazsinbad
Think about the links. If Singaporeans have a license to say anything about their military then it helps to have links eh.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 08:36
by weasel1962
spazsinbad wrote:Think about the links. If Singaporeans have a license to say anything about their military then it helps to have links eh.


Remember AOL defense claiming Singapore was going to get 12 F-35Bs within ten days? Not every link is worth the same.

This is worth a bit more. Alert5's report on the FAA registration. I checked it against the actual registry and so it is.
http://alert5.com/2014/08/22/8-f-15sgs- ... istration/

Registrations are cancelled once the a/c are exported so these 8 should be state-side.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 08:39
by spazsinbad
Given the history so far of Singaporean Misinformation I have no doubt that many links will be obsfucating - however that is the only way we can judge anything - just relying on what you claim is not good enough. The more links the merrier I reckon.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 10:54
by weasel1962
spazsinbad wrote:Given the history so far of Singaporean Misinformation I have no doubt that many links will be obsfucating - however that is the only way we can judge anything - just relying on what you claim is not good enough. The more links the merrier I reckon.


Everyone does it (misinformation). Otherwise what is military secrecy? Has not stopped journos from making wild claims with no links though and many on this forum can appreciate the F-35 misinformation campaign. Nevertheless, one should also distinguish between postulation and claims. If one makes claims, sure links would be useful to back it up. If one raises only possibilities, how will there be any concrete links?

So going back to the post, where in lies the offending claim? If none, then the fact is a lot of hot air has been stated in criticism.

It will have some effect on possible timing of F-35 acquisition. If the F-15s represent F-5 replacement, then if the RSAF does not add a squadron, then this would mean the F-35 will be acquired only as F-16 replacements. With the F-16 due for an upgrade/SLEP, an F-35 acquisition may only happen at least a decade from now (notwithstanding potential issues with the 2 seater F-16s which occupy 2/3rds of the RSAF F-16 fleet). Even if there is a buy until then, its not going to be more than a sqn. Not good news for LM.

If it was only 32, then maybe it won't be an F-5 replacement since 8-10 are kept in MHAFB for training so the remaining 22-24 would form a full sqn back home. 40 = more likely 2 small sqns back home. DiD was skeptical what the 8 serials of FAA registration represents. I did a check of the FAA database and couldn't find any other F-15SG serials for past F-15SGs.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 10:59
by spazsinbad
I give up. I'm not interested in your possible postulations - sadly. However I would be interested in whatever links you have to news about the Singaporean interest in F-35s. What you make of that news I do not care to know. I'll make up my own mind about what is going on - as best I can. You are just more noise AFAIK.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 11:19
by weasel1962
spazsinbad wrote:I give up. I'm not interested in your possible postulations - sadly. However I would be interested in whatever links you have to news about the Singaporean interest in F-35s. What you make of that news I do not care to know. I'll make up my own mind about what is going on - as best I can. You are just more noise AFAIK.


Yup, I'm the kind of noise that highlighted the 93 deliveries on another forum BEFORE Janes published their article. I don't expect anyone to read what I post. But if one criticise, then its courtesy to back up the criticism.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 11:52
by spazsinbad
You like to pull stuff out of nowhere - what 93 deliveries? What you have done for me is highlighted (possibly not on purpose) how unreliable ANY news is coming from the 'all to ready to lie Singaporeans'. I acknowledge their right to secrecy and that is OK but to lie deliberately about all and everything just makes them untrustworthy. Perhaps there is some kind of nod and wink system nudge nudge. I'm certain the US bigwig quoted some time ago saying F-35Bs would be ordered soon is not going to speak about Singapore again in his lifetime. Sad it is.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2014, 21:27
by weasel1962
spazsinbad wrote:You like to pull stuff out of nowhere - what 93 deliveries? What you have done for me is highlighted (possibly not on purpose) how unreliable ANY news is coming from the 'all to ready to lie Singaporeans'. I acknowledge their right to secrecy and that is OK but to lie deliberately about all and everything just makes them untrustworthy. Perhaps there is some kind of nod and wink system nudge nudge. I'm certain the US bigwig quoted some time ago saying F-35Bs would be ordered soon is not going to speak about Singapore again in his lifetime. Sad it is.


I'm not interested in your possible postulations. However I would be interested in whatever links you have to news about the Singaporean interest in F-35s. What you make of that news I do not care to know. I'll make up my own mind about what is going on. You are just more noise AFAIK.- I totally agree as a response to this post.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2015, 17:22
by zerion

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2015, 23:07
by popcorn
A bit curious they are also seeking info on the C-model.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2015, 23:19
by maus92
popcorn wrote:A bit curious they are also seeking info on the C-model.


Better short field performance, and slightly better range than the -A.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2015, 00:24
by spazsinbad
Seeking info on the three variants is just SingaporeanWay of being obscure (for their security purposes). This is a theme with them and for good reason I will guess. One day they will order some F-35s perhaps - then we will know - maybe. :devil:

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2015, 00:41
by popcorn
spazsinbad wrote:Seeking info on the three variants is just SingaporeanWay of being obscure (for their security purposes). This is a theme with them and for good reason I will guess. One day they will order some F-35s perhaps - then we will know - maybe. :devil:

Yes, very likely. Also, learning never hurt anyone AFAIK. Knowledge that may come in useful some day should Singapore eye getting a piece of the maintenance business.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2015, 07:14
by Corsair1963
Getting closer and closer to the tipping point! Which, will be when orders start to flood in from a number of Air Forces.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2015, 03:55
by thepointblank
popcorn wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Seeking info on the three variants is just SingaporeanWay of being obscure (for their security purposes). This is a theme with them and for good reason I will guess. One day they will order some F-35s perhaps - then we will know - maybe. :devil:

Yes, very likely. Also, learning never hurt anyone AFAIK. Knowledge that may come in useful some day should Singapore eye getting a piece of the maintenance business.


Singapore's ST Aerospace does a lot of heavy maintenance for the F-16, and has done major modifications for the F-5 and A-4 fleet in the past for the military. They also do a lot of extensive heavy maintenance work for the civilian sector, and is in fact one of the world's largest maintenance providers. You can sure bet that they will be interested in F-35 maintenance business.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2015, 04:19
by popcorn
thepointblank wrote:
popcorn wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Seeking info on the three variants is just SingaporeanWay of being obscure (for their security purposes). This is a theme with them and for good reason I will guess. One day they will order some F-35s perhaps - then we will know - maybe. :devil:

Yes, very likely. Also, learning never hurt anyone AFAIK. Knowledge that may come in useful some day should Singapore eye getting a piece of the maintenance business.


Singapore's ST Aerospace does a lot of heavy maintenance for the F-16, and has done major modifications for the F-5 and A-4 fleet in the past for the military. They also do a lot of extensive heavy maintenance work for the civilian sector, and is in fact one of the world's largest maintenance providers. You can sure bet that they will be interested in F-35 maintenance business.

The South Koreans would be top of the list potential customers.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2015, 04:35
by thepointblank
popcorn wrote:
thepointblank wrote:
popcorn wrote:Yes, very likely. Also, learning never hurt anyone AFAIK. Knowledge that may come in useful some day should Singapore eye getting a piece of the maintenance business.


Singapore's ST Aerospace does a lot of heavy maintenance for the F-16, and has done major modifications for the F-5 and A-4 fleet in the past for the military. They also do a lot of extensive heavy maintenance work for the civilian sector, and is in fact one of the world's largest maintenance providers. You can sure bet that they will be interested in F-35 maintenance business.

The South Koreans would be top of the list potential customers.

I would imagine Singapore would want a slightly customized version of the F-35, fitted with some unique avionics, like with their later versions of their F-16's. Remember that Singapore and Israel cooperate extensively with each other, and have a very close military relationship,

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2015, 05:03
by popcorn
thepointblank wrote:[
I would imagine Singapore would want a slightly customized version of the F-35, fitted with some unique avionics, like with their later versions of their F-16's. Remember that Singapore and Israel cooperate extensively with each other, and have a very close military relationship,

Yes but depending on the complexity of any mods they will likely wind up having JPO/LM do it for them to avoid compatibility/sustainment issues, same as the Israelis AFAIK.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2016, 20:39
by spazsinbad
Early Feb = this must be Singapore F-35B speculation time?
Ensuring Singapore’s defensive edge
09-15 Feb 2016 GREG WALDRON Flight International Mag'n

"...FUTURE FIGHTER
[MAJ GEN HOO CHER MOU Chief, RSAF] is candid about the air force’s broader role, but his comments about specific acquisitions are carefully calibrated. One pointed question posed was about Singapore’s degree of interest in Lockheed’s short take-off and vertical landing F-35B. Its defence minister has seen demonstrations of the Joint Strike Fighter variant in the past, and industry observers feel the model is the ideal platform for land-scarce Singapore.

“The RSAF has identified the F-35 as a potential candidate to enhance our fighter fleet, and is in the advanced stages of evaluating the F-35,” says Hoo. “Each of the F-35 variants has its unique strengths that could enhance our
operational capability. We will make our final decision when we are satisfied that this state-of-the-art, multi-role fighter meets our long-term defence needs, is on track to be operationally capable, and most importantly, is a cost-effective platform.”..."

Source: 09-15 Feb 2016 Flight International Magazine

Responding to China
Southeast Asia’s leading air force continues to methodically improve its already impressive fixed-wing inventory
09-15 Feb 2016 GREG WALDRON Flight International Mag'n

"...LIGHTNING STRIKE
Singapore’s fighter fleet is rounded out by 26 well-maintained but ageing F-5S fighters, which date from the earliest days of its air force, in the 1970s. The type has been extensively upgraded, but its looming retirement is a foregone conclusion. It is all but certain the fleet will be replaced by the F-35. For years Lockheed has displayed a mock-up of the F-35 at the Singapore air show in RSAF markings. The city-state is a security co-operation participant in the programme, giving it access to programme data and allowing it to request special studies. In March 2013, defence minister Ng Eng Hen said an evaluation of the F-35 was almost complete.

“For the longer term, the Republic of Singapore Air Force has identified the F-35 as a suitable aircraft to further modernise our fighter fleet,” said Ng in 2013.

Local media reports last December quoted Ng as saying Singapore is in “no hurry” to make a decision to obtain the F-35, and is evaluating the type. Ng made the more recent comments on a visit to Luke AFB in Arizona.

“Two years ago when we were here, these hangars were not filled (with F-35s)... within 18 months they’ve clocked in more than 3,000 sorties, 5,000 hours – that’s a lot of flying,” said Ng. “And that gives us confidence the programme is on track. So the more mature the programme is, the more steady the production lines for [the F-35s], the more boxes are ticked when we evaluate it. But we are in no hurry to decide.”

Richard Bitzinger, senior fellow at Singapore’s S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies, says Singapore is just being careful. “The F-35B makes sense to a country with only a few bases and few options for dispersed operations,” he says. “ Ostensibly, Singapore could set up austere basing sites for the B version, including islands off the mainland. Singapore is probably just being prudent, and waiting until the F-35B goes through its teething with the US military. They’ll probably announce any F-35B acquisitions the same time they place an order for the A version.”

LACK OF LAND
Bitzinger touches on one of the key questions surrounding Singapore’s plan to obtain the F-35: the mix of conventional take-off and landing F-35As and short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) F-35Bs. A major challenge facing Singapore’s air force – and the other arms of its military – is the chronic shortage of land in the densely populated nation....

...Although Singapore’s civilian runways can be given over to military use in a crisis – and several public roads are designed to serve as runways in an emergency – it is an inescapable fact the Singapore air force has limited basing options. As such, the flexible basing capability offered by the F-35B will have clear attractions for Singapore.

Forecast International’s Darling says Singapore’s caution about the F-35B probably stems more from cost than concerns about the jet itself
.

“The long-term funding of such an expensive acquisition is no doubt a key factor in its hesitation to announce its commitment to the pricy F-35B as of yet,” he says. “Balancing costs within the defence budget with an ongoing government campaign to bolster the living standards of citizens is no doubt a consideration. The hope for Singapore is that, over time, unit prices per F-35B aircraft will decline, thus ensuring a more cost-effective purchase in the future.”....

...“With the purchase of up to 100 F-35s, it will continue to be so well into the middle of the century. The challenge is China. If China becomes more militarily present in the South China Sea, and more aggressive in using force to back up its claims, that could present a latent, long-term threat to Singapore that it would find hard to compete with. China can simply bring much more force – qualitatively as well as quantitatively – to bear against Singapore or any other Southeast Asian military. Hence the increasing need to hedge against China by inviting the US into a closer embrace, militarily speaking.”

Source: 09-15 Feb 2016 Flight International Magazine

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2016, 04:14
by popcorn
JSF makes it's Asian debut this month.


http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/sin ... 01102.html
F-35 fighter jet to go on display at Singapore Airshow


SINGAPORE: The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will be on display at this year's Singapore Airshow, which will be held from Feb 16 to Feb 21. There will also be a flight simulator so visitors can get a feel of the fighter jet that Singapore has expressed its interest in buying...

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2016, 04:30
by Dragon029
It's a shame that (presumably) they're not taking a real jet to do a flight demo.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2016, 05:12
by spazsinbad
Quote from last recent 'popcorn' post URL above:
"..."A MEDIUM- TO LONG-TERM PROJECT
Last December, Defence Minister Ng Eng Hen said he was pleased with progress on the F-35 programme, but he reiterated that the Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) is in "no hurry" to purchase the jet, adding that the SAF will buy what it needs.

Mr Bitzinger said one prohibitive factor could be the high cost of the JSF development programme. He estimates that the programme may have driven up the cost per jet to more than S$140 million.

This could be partly due to the need to address issues such as reliability problems with the fighter's IT system called the Autonomic Logistics Information System, and ejector seats, which have been widely reported.

The SAF might be waiting to see if these risks become more manageable, said another analyst, even as it seeks a next-generation fighter that will give it clear superiority over other air forces in the long term.

"Singapore doesn't particularly need new air defence or interceptor aircraft," said Dr Tim Huxley, executive director at the International Institute for Strategic Studies. "It's got the F-16s, which do that job very well and which are being upgraded, which will extend their service life probably for another 20 years.


"I think the F-35 is seen as a medium- to long-term project for RSAF and there is no need to commit to it immediately. The F-35 programme will involve producing considerably more than a thousand aircraft eventually and that production line is going to keep going for a long time."

However, Dr Huxley added that if the F-35 is selected by the SAF, it would be a platform that can effectively coordinate with other air, land and sea elements, in line with SAF's goal of becoming an integrated force."

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 16 Feb 2016, 02:24
by spazsinbad
F-35s for Singapore? Don’t Hold Your Breath [ :devil: AAaawwww!!! But I wanna!!! :mrgreen: :doh: Bated breath ]
16 Feb 2016 Angus Batey

"...With F-35, the picture remains exactly as it was two years ago. Singapore joined the program as a security cooperation participant in 2003, at the same time and status as Israel. [How does this fact determine anything?] Despite the latter’s procurement being a far-from-smooth process – Israel’s F-35s have a number of unique subsystems – the first Israeli jet is in production in Fort Worth, Texas. Singapore is still to confirm an order, or even to announce its preferred F-35 variant. [Phwaaoorrgghhh! For shame!]

Speculation persists that a mixed buy of A and B models could suit Singapore, with its several short runways and the possibility of operation from converted helicopter carrier vessels. But the Republic clearly remains in no rush to commit. Nor are Lockheed aggressively marketing the sale: Although an F-35 mock-up and cockpit simulator will be on view at the Air Show, Singapore is not listed on the official F-35 program website as an international participant, and Lockheed staff were not available for interview ahead of the show...."

Source: http://aviationweek.com/singapore-airsh ... our-breath

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 16 Feb 2016, 02:48
by XanderCrews
First class reporting avaition week. Lol such inside info, cruising the website like that. Wow much journalism

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 16 Feb 2016, 03:16
by weasel1962
AIN did an email interview with the outgoing Chief of Air Force (replacement will come in March).
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -lots-more

Moo told AIN that the RSAF was, “in the advanced stages of evaluating the F-35.” But he also said that a final decision would not be made until “we are satisfied that [it] is on track to be operationally capable, and most importantly, is a cost-effective platform.” Amplifying that point, Dr. Ng said last March that, “we do not buy a platform when it is just new. We watch [for] when the price comes down.”


Just waiting for the price to come down a bit more...There is still 1 squadron (144 sqn) of F-5s in service that was due for replacement 6 years ago. Singapore is looking for a blk 3F or more capability but with the schedule more or less due to complete 2018 and operational testing to be completed latest by 2021, I can't see a decision going into the next decade.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 16 Feb 2016, 04:11
by optimist
XanderCrews wrote:First class reporting avaition week. Lol such inside info, cruising the website like that. Wow much journalism

I don't know the plan for AW, but it looks like they are going to go behind a paywall. This will stop some criticism, as those that know that Sweetman and Co. write trash, won't subscribe. They have virtually cut the ares blog and have lock symbols on most articles.

My guess for Singapore going by their previous 'buy off the shelf' established platform procurement. They will wait till block 4 is finished in the mid 20's and buy then.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2016, 14:58
by thebaseleg
Weasel et al,

F-5S/Ts have retired in Q3 2015, and there will be developments on the F-15SG front announced soon.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2016, 04:18
by weasel1962
thebaseleg wrote:Weasel et al,

F-5S/Ts have retired in Q3 2015, and there will be developments on the F-15SG front announced soon.

Thanks for the heads up, mike. Waiting for budget this week.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2016, 17:39
by thebaseleg
And here it is: Singapore forms 2nd F-15SG squadron http://www.janes.com/article/58959/rsaf ... g-squadron which means it has more than the known 32 aircraft

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2016, 23:27
by raameagle
It doesn't mean that they have more than the known 32 aircraft but they do have 32. The next batch of 8 jets are in production and the first couple have been seen in St Louis.

Regards

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 24 Mar 2016, 06:35
by thepointblank
raameagle wrote:It doesn't mean that they have more than the known 32 aircraft but they do have 32. The next batch of 8 jets are in production and the first couple have been seen in St Louis.

Regards

Yep. From what has been observed regarding F-15SG serials, 32 aircraft are known to exist. Singapore is perhaps the least transparent regarding their military capabilities, which fits with how they operate; create uncertainty with potential opponents over your true capabilities.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2016, 16:01
by weasel1962
Article in the local main broadsheet taking advantage of the interest generated with the RSAF open house (at Paya Lebar airbase).

http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/t ... f-the-rsaf
The future of the RSAF?
Published May 22, 2016, 5:00 am SGT
Jermyn Chow Defence Correspondent In Dallas Fort Worth

Welcome to Dallas Fort Worth, where production of what has been labelled the world's most advanced fighter jet is continuing apace.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter can travel at nearly twice the speed of sound, has stealth features that make it tough to detect by enemy planes and radars, and high-tech systems which let it strike the enemy first before being spotted.

But the plane, which Lockheed Martin started developing in 2001, has also become a lightning rod for criticism. It has faced delays, ballooning production costs and a series of production flaws, such as a fuel tank prone to exploding, a vulnerability to lightning strikes and even a faulty ejection seat which could snap a pilot's neck during ejection.

But that has not stopped 11 countries, including the United States, Britain, Israel, South Korea and Japan, from buying the F-35, with Denmark possibly joining the list after its defence ministry made a pitch to Parliament two weeks ago to opt for fifth-generation aircraft.

Now, Lockheed is looking to sew up a multibillion-dollar deal with Singapore, which is in the final stages of considering if it will also go down the F-35 route and buy both the conventional F-35A and the F-35B, which takes off from shorter runways and can land like a helicopter.

A MATTER OF WHEN

Several sources told The Sunday Times that Singapore looks all but certain to say yes to the F-35s, explaining it is "not a matter of if but when" and that a decision may be expected as early as next year.

That will be when the Pentagon issues a notice to the United States Congress highlighting the possible deal. If Singapore does buy the plane, it will probably receive its first F-35 around 2021 when the warplane is considered "full matured", said one source.

The Ministry of Defence (Mindef) would only say that the F-35 "is still under evaluation", citing Defence Minister Ng Eng Hen's comments to Parliament in 2013 that fifth-generation jets, such as the F-35, are "potential options".

"As a small country with no strategic depth, Singapore will always need superior air capabilities to protect its interests and borders," said a Mindef spokesman.

Dr Ng has seen both the F-35A and F-35B jets up close as recently as last December. A Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) evaluation team has also been to Lockheed's aeronautics headquarters in Dallas Fort Worth at least twice in the last three years to go through their paces in F-35 simulators.

The Pentagon's F-35 programme chief, Lieutenant-General Christopher Bogdan, paid an unpublicised visit to Singapore in February during the Singapore Airshow, and was said to have made his closing pitch to the country's military leaders - two years before the F-35's development is scheduled for completion.

For Singapore to be mulling its options at this stage is unprecedented, said observers. It acquired its F-16s and F-15s years after they were built in the 1970s and battle-tested.

But this also means Singapore needs to be more careful that it will not be buying into a problematic platform. A source said: "This is the first time that we are buying a fighter jet that is fresh off its development phase. We need to make sure that the platform is ready."

TEETHING PROBLEMS

It has been a bumpy ride for the F-35. In the latest blow, engineers last year uncovered computer glitches that can shut down the plane's radar, requiring pilots to turn it off and on again.

Such issues have pushed the F-35's development seven years behind schedule and made it the world's costliest weapon programme in history. The initial estimate in 2001 had been around US$200 billion. Today, the Pentagon has already spent US$400 billion (S$553 billion).

The F-35 was also reportedly outclassed by a 40-year-old F-16 in a dogfight last year. Last month, US Senator John McCain, a former navy pilot, slammed the F-35's troubled history, saying it "has been both a scandal and a tragedy with respect to cost, schedule and performance".

PILOTS GIVE THUMBS UP

Yet, pilots who have flown the F-35 told The Sunday Times that it is a cut above the rest.

Lieutenant-Colonel Gregory J. Summa, who is the commanding officer at the VMFAT-501 squadron which trains the US Marine Corps' F-35 pilots, said: "The airplane has more power than others and the power is there immediately.

"Because of its low observable design, there is not a lot of drag, so the airplane accelerates very, very fast and does not decelerate. You have to force the airplane to slow down."

Major Michael Rountree, the squadron's executive officer, has clocked 400 hours on the F-35. The 38-year-old said the jet was much easier to fly, allowing him to pay more attention to threats.

The information collected by the plane's many sensors is also put together in one single display, which means the pilot can quickly have a complete picture of what is happening around him, he added.

Lockheed's F-35 chief test pilot Alan Norman, who has clocked 6,000 flying hours in more than 70 types of aircraft such as the F-22, said the plane is also more survivable and lethal than any other.

He said: "Nobody is going to sneak up behind an F-35 because you know where every adversary is in the battlespace well before they are on your tail."

Maintenance crew said F-35s take half the time to maintain, given its advanced computer system.

Lockheed's executives assure that all the glitches will be fixed by 2018.

Mr Steve Over, Lockheed's F-35 business development director, said the defence manufacturer has "a solution on hand for every one of the technical flaws pointed out".

"The flaws found are not unlike any weapons programme that is still under development", added the engineer, who worked on F-16s for 29 years before moving to the F-35.

Defence analyst Kelvin Wong said developmental challenges are par for the course for modern combat aircraft programmes, more so with the F-35 programme's scale and complexity. Pointing to the F-16 programme, which is one of the most successful with at least 25 countries flying over 4,500 jets, Mr Wong, who is IHS Jane's Asia-Pacific defence technology reporter and upgrades editor, said the F-16 suffered "subpar performance" for about 10 years.

Lockheed is also optimistic as it has been able to cut production costs by 60 per cent since the first plane rolled off its factory floor in 2010. It said it is on track to shave a further 20 per cent off the current price by 2019. By then, each F-35 will hopefully cost around US$80 million to US$85 million.

The optimism was palpable when The Sunday Times visited Lockheed's F-35 factory floor.

Visitors were not allowed to take photos or capture videos in the high-security production line, which is about 1.6km long.

The area was a hive of activity, with engineers and technicians working like clockwork to assemble the warplanes. To meet expected higher demand and ramp up production to hit full steam by 2019, Mr Over said Lockheed will increase the number of final assembly stations from 14 to 22. More hands will also be needed, with 1,000 people to be hired by 2020 to add to the current 5,000-strong team.

Mr Jack Crisler, Lockheed's vice-president of F-35 business development and strategy integration, said the "sweet spot" for countries to lock in their orders would be between next year and 2018, to gain economies of scale.

He expects interest from other countries to grow when Japan and Israel start to take delivery of their warplanes and fly them, putting paid to doubts of a sustainable worldwide F-35 fleet. Mr Crisler said countries will want to be in a growing shortlist that Lockheed and the Pentagon will pick from to set up maintenance and repair warehouses around the world.

DOES SINGAPORE NEED THE F-35?

Beyond the marketing spin, questions still swirl over the need of having the F-35s to protect Singapore's airspace. Currently, the country has fourth-generation fighters F-16s and F-15s. While the 60 F-16 jets are getting their midlife upgrades to extend their operational lives by another 20 years, the F-15s, which the Republic is believed to have as many as 40 of, are considered the best currently.

Defence observer David Boey, who sits on the Advisory Council on Community Relations in Defence, believes existing fighters are "numerically and technologically superior to that of anyone in the immediate region who may want to pick a quarrel with us".

He said: "In the absence of the F-35, options include expanding this fighter force with latest variants of these or other warplanes."

He added that the hefty price of the F-35 is not the chief hurdle.

The F-15s were said to be about US$120 million each when Singapore bought them. He said: "The deal-breaker is convincing ourselves that the F-35 can perform as advertised and serve as a credible deterrent. With enough time and money, any bug can be fixed. We need to ask ourselves if the patience and money will always be there to bankroll this project."

Defence analyst Richard Bitzinger thinks Singapore is in no hurry as it already has an "overwhelming (air) superiority" over its regional neighbours, although several, including Indonesia and Malaysia, are also eyeing fifth-generation platforms. "I think that Singapore will eventually opt for the F-35, due to its overall technophilia, but it can afford to wait," said the senior fellow at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies.

Other observers said there is also a limit to how much the RSAF can upgrade its existing fourth-generation warplanes to outdo the enemy.

As one put it: "You can only do that much with a Toyota and Suzuki. Given the strategic challenges, we may need to get a sports car to stay ahead."

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 03 Aug 2016, 08:45
by spazsinbad
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter: Singapore's next-gen fighter?
02 Aug 2016 Kelvin Wong

"While Singapore continues to remain tight lipped about its next-generation combat aircraft programme it is widely believed that an F-35 Joint Strike Fighter buy is a matter of not if, but when for the Southeast Asian country. Kelvin Wong reports on the latest perspectives from the Singapore government and Lockheed Martin

With a stated interest of acquiring the next-generation of combat aircraft for the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) by 2030, the Southeast Asian island state of Singapore is widely expected by analysts and defence watchers to be an eventual customer for Lockheed Martin's fifth-generation F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF).

The densely populated island is only 719.1 km² in size, with limited manpower resources for defence and no strategic depth to manoeuvre in the advent of conflict. Cognisant of the growing spectrum of operations that the Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) must undertake in an increasingly uncertain security environment vis-à-vis its own resource constraints, the country embarked on a third-generation (3G) SAF transformation in 2004 under which it is moulding its three services into an advanced, networked force. Underpinning this effort is the integrated knowledge-based command and control (IKC2) concept, where networked forces are augmented with decision support systems that enable commanders and personnel to exploit information more quickly and effectively...."

Source: http://www.janes.com/article/62721/f-35 ... en-fighter

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 09 Aug 2016, 00:14
by maus92
Singapore Puts Off Decision on Whether to Buy Lockheed’s F-35
Anthony Capaccio / Bloomberg
August 8, 2016 — 6:32 PM EDT

"Singapore has put on hold a decision to buy as many as 12 of Lockheed Martin Corp.’s F-35 jets, according to information from the Pentagon’s program office.

The island nation’s permanent secretary of defense development informed the U.S. in mid-June that it was delaying final steps toward purchasing four of the fighters by about 2022, with an option to buy eight more, according to the information presented to Pentagon officials last month as part of their regular reviews of the costliest weapons program."


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... eed-s-f-35

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 09 Aug 2016, 00:16
by popcorn
No rush really, just a matter of time.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 09 Aug 2016, 05:28
by weasel1962
Word on the street is early next year for an official announcement. F-35Bs makes sense. Integration with RN in FPDA. With proposed training in guam & australia with USMC. New A330 tankers to support drogue refuel and maybe even an LHD that can fly Bs in the works. A sizeable rolls royce factory in country. The Bs free up the local air bases for allied use.

Singapore is now within J-20 range operating from the South China sea bases.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 09 Aug 2016, 18:49
by spazsinbad
Some bits of interesting info left out of the 'maus92' excerpts of the article above:
"...In December 2014, Singapore submitted a “letter of request” to the U.S. formally seeking information on purchasing the F-35, and it followed up in early 2015 by indicating it wanted the most complex model, the F-35B. Intended for short takeoffs and vertical landings on unimproved airstrips, the F-35B was designed for use by the U.S. Marine Corps and has already been ordered by the U.K. and Italy.

Data Link, Radio
The U.S. made a policy decision earlier this year allowing Singapore to integrate a data link and radio that it developed into its jets if purchased, according to the Pentagon’s F-35 program office...."

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 09 Aug 2016, 19:09
by SpudmanWP
Odds are that "allowing Singapore to integrate a data link and radio" is just new codes & waveforms for the F-35's existing software configurable CNI.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2016, 00:34
by weasel1962

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2016, 16:48
by zerion
Singapore Eyes F-35 for 2030 Time Frame

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/sin ... rd%20Brief

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2016, 08:36
by Corsair1963
zerion wrote:Singapore Eyes F-35 for 2030 Time Frame

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/sin ... rd%20Brief


If, China starts to field J-20's and/or J-31's in the next few years. I am sure Singapore will acquire the F-35 much sooner than 2030.
:doh:

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2017, 00:59
by spazsinbad
SNAFU must be on heavy tranquilizer darts to say this - today 03 Mar 2017 when original story published 09 Aug 2016
"...The last thing that should be noticed by my readers is the date of this delay. The Singaporean Ministry of Defense notified the program office in mid-June of their decision. We're only hearing about this now. The JSF Program Office is deceitful, manipulative and untruthful in their dealings with the media/public. How I wish we had defense reporters that knew enough about basic issues to ask simple stuff like...hey General, why the **** did it take your office so long to inform the public of this news?....ya know...simple questions that even a blogger could think to ask!" [IF that blogger could understand DATES!]

Source: http://www.snafu-solomon.com/2017/03/si ... qus_thread

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2017, 01:19
by XanderCrews
spazsinbad wrote:SNAFU must be on heavy tranquilizer darts to say this - today 03 Mar 2017 when original story published 09 Aug 2016
"...The last thing that should be noticed by my readers is the date of this delay. The Singaporean Ministry of Defense notified the program office in mid-June of their decision. We're only hearing about this now. The JSF Program Office is deceitful, manipulative and untruthful in their dealings with the media/public. How I wish we had defense reporters that knew enough about basic issues to ask simple stuff like...hey General, why the **** did it take your office so long to inform the public of this news?....ya know...simple questions that even a blogger could think to ask!" [IF that blogger could understand DATES!]

Source: http://www.snafu-solomon.com/2017/03/si ... qus_thread


LOL simple dates are hard

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2017, 01:22
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:SNAFU must be on heavy tranquilizer darts to say this - today 03 Mar 2017 when original story published 09 Aug 2016
"...The last thing that should be noticed by my readers is the date of this delay. The Singaporean Ministry of Defense notified the program office in mid-June of their decision. We're only hearing about this now. The JSF Program Office is deceitful, manipulative and untruthful in their dealings with the media/public. How I wish we had defense reporters that knew enough about basic issues to ask simple stuff like...hey General, why the **** did it take your office so long to inform the public of this news?....ya know...simple questions that even a blogger could think to ask!" [IF that blogger could understand DATES!]

Source: http://www.snafu-solomon.com/2017/03/si ... qus_thread


.....errr, what was the Singapore decision about what????...... :D

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2017, 08:37
by gc
Corsair1963 wrote:
zerion wrote:Singapore Eyes F-35 for 2030 Time Frame

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/sin ... rd%20Brief


If, China starts to field J-20's and/or J-31's in the next few years. I am sure Singapore will acquire the F-35 much sooner than 2030.
:doh:


Singapore possesses a fighter fleet that is disproportionately large and advanced compared to its neighbours. It now possesses approximately 100 highly advanced F15SG and F-16C/D/D+. With the completion of the F-16 MLU, every single fighter will be equipped with AESA radars and advanced ECM. Coupled with force multiplies such as the G-550 AEW aircraft and A330 MRTT, this force is significantly overmatched against its neighbours whose fighter procurement plans has been put on hold for the past many yrs. i guess that is the reason why Singapore is delaying the procurement of the F-35.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2017, 14:31
by mixelflick
So their F-15's are near the end of their service lives?

How can this be? I thought they took delivery recently of the very new F-15SG's? And isn't this just a tricked out strike Eagle, meaning air to ground??

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 25 Jan 2018, 22:22
by spazsinbad
E-mail tells me the F-35B will be at the Singapore Air Show 6-11 Feb but does not say what it will do there - GO GYRENES.

Here it says the B will BE in the static display: https://www.singaporeairshow.com/public ... splay.html

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 25 Jan 2018, 22:53
by juretrn
According to singaporeairshow website, the F-22 is operated by the United States Navy. Who knew.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2018, 21:17
by spazsinbad
Some pics e-mailed of F-35Bs at the show....

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2018, 16:25
by spazsinbad
Singapore shops for new platforms as part of Air Force transformation
06 Feb 2018 Mike Yeo

"...Upcoming procurements
Singapore has a reputation as a discerning buyer of military equipment. The country has evaluated the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, with particular interest in the F-35B short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing, or STOVL, variant although it has requested information on all three variants of the F-35, according to former F-35 Joint Program Office head Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan.

With its limited land area and the upcoming closure of one of its three fighter bases, the STOVL variant would offer Singapore the ability to generate air power even in the event of a successful strike on its runways. However, Singapore’s defense minister, Ng Eng Hen, has said that despite being impressed with the F-35, the country is in no hurry to place an order given the Air Force sees no need for a new fighter until the latter half of the 2020s, at the earliest...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... formation/

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 08 Feb 2018, 00:21
by spazsinbad

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 08 Feb 2018, 07:18
by Corsair1963
The real question isn't will they (Singapore) acquire the F-35. It's when...... :wink:

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 08 Feb 2018, 08:04
by sunstersun
Singapore, UAE, Saudis, Finland, Spain, Germany, Belgium, Canada, Romania, Poland, and Greece.

I think that covers all the potential buyers.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 08 Feb 2018, 13:02
by ricnunes
sunstersun wrote:Singapore, UAE, Saudis, Finland, Spain, Germany, Belgium, Canada, Romania, Poland, and Greece.

I think that covers all the potential buyers.


You can actually add Portugal that that list as well.

The only reason why Portugal hasn't bought the F-35 yet is because of current financial constraints (and thus Portugal is in "similar boat" as Greece). Actually the current plan is to update the current F-16 MLU fleet to the -V standard (a more economical move) and keep the updated F-16s (F-16V) until circa 2035-2040 where they will be replaced by the F-35 (the Portuguese government doesn't publically state the F-35 but internally the Portuguese Air Force clearly and solely aims at the F-35).

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 08 Feb 2018, 19:57
by mixelflick
juretrn wrote:According to singaporeairshow website, the F-22 is operated by the United States Navy. Who knew.


I knew the Navy would come to its senses! So why are we buying F-35C's? :mrgreen:

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2018, 19:29
by loke
The minister also revealed that Singapore is interested in buying Tejas. “We love to provide the Tejas to other countries. Singapore's defence minister has shown interest in it,” she said.

The Singapore defence minister Ng Eng Hen during a visit to India in November last year had flown a sortie in Tejas. He had praised Tejas as an excellent aircraft.


https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 148814.cms

Sorry guys, no F-35s for Singapore they will go for the far superior Tejas :doh:

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2018, 20:02
by rheonomic
lol

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 17 Mar 2018, 22:35
by dandy5
Really?

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 17 Mar 2018, 23:54
by popcorn
Funny. Singapore buys top shelf stuff.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 18 Mar 2018, 03:42
by optimist
Now you have done it, there are 400m Indians that can be on a Tejas vs F-35 thread.
:bang: I'll have to delete my account. It's bad enough with the number of rafale posts increasing since India and others, have ordered Rafales. A home grown Tejas will lift the lid off. :mrgreen:

I think it's the G'ees. Put any politician in the backseat of a jet and it must be the euphoric G rush. The cheque books are out before they land.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 18 Mar 2018, 04:35
by popcorn
The mods would be thrilled at the prospect of 400Million new subscribers. :mrgreen:

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 13:56
by talkitron
Reactivating this old thread to post an article stating that Singapore is beginning the long process of evaluating then likely purchasing F-35s to replace F-16s. IOC is 2030.

Decision on F-16 fighter jet replacement likely in next few months: Ng Eng Hen


https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/ ... ng-eng-hen

The options for the 4.5 or fifth-generation stealth fighters in the market include the Eurofighter Typhoons, US Lockheed Martin's F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, Russian-made Sukhois, and Chinese-made J-20s, though Singapore has reportedly been evaluating the F-35s as a replacement.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 17:00
by popcorn
The J-20 is going to be available for export?

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 17:08
by rheonomic
popcorn wrote:The J-20 is going to be available for export?


I'd be surprised. FC-31 maybe? Everything I've seen so far seems to point the PLAAF has little interest in it.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 17:13
by popcorn
Singapore will buy only a top-shelf platform.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 01:36
by lbk000
talkitron wrote:
Chinese-made J-20s

Does the reporter know anything about the landscape at all...?

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 02:51
by weasel1962
Should not read too much into media articles. Singapore did review Su-35s, Typhoons and Rafales as fighter replacement potential back in year 2005 but for the F-16 replacement, the consistent message are F-35s.

The only real questions are A or Bs, where they will be based, where these will be built and how many.

More recent speculation is the selection of BAE instead of SAIC for the USMC amph vehicle replacement, the AETP growth options, the Israeli F-35A buys, the difficulties faced at Cameri, may influence the decision to the cheaper A. 2030 will see AETP as a production option.

Some groundwork has already been done with 2% rate hike in GST/VAT that can fund a 3 squadron buy plus development needs. A new airbase is being built in the east. The Israeli buy would mean inter-operability between the G550 and F-35 will be resolved. The new JMMS vessel is being messaged to operate helos, not fixed wing.

The B cannot be ruled out. The island marine environment could mean more emphasis on corrosion protection (delivery acceptance of A was due to corrosion issues). The growing ability of potential aggressors to suppress airfields. The A330s can refuel 2 B rather than 1 A at a time. The interoperability with UK including on their CVs and USMC amphs. The lack of airspace (low speed short take-off requirements) continues in B’s favour.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 03:21
by spazsinbad
'weasel1962' said: "...The island marine environment could mean more emphasis on corrosion protection (delivery acceptance of A was due to corrosion issues)…."

This is a furphy (not exactly accurate rumour). All F-35 variant aircraft have been made to the same standard as well as the engines (corrosion proofedwise). It was just happenstance that some of the recent F-35As were manufactured with a corrosion process not carried out on a 'hole or two'. This oversight will be remedied in due course and - of course - the manufacturing process has been changed to amend this error for future aircraft. The only wrangle was 'who was going to pay for the repair to existing aircraft' - this has been sorted to the satisfaction of all concerned.

8) In other words every F-35 variant could sail on the flat deck anywhere -even if only as deck cargo for some - with the same corrosion protection. IF Singapore needs more corrosion protection than already provided I guess they can pay extra and sort out what extra needs to be done. GO FOR IT SINGERS. :roll:

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 03:37
by weasel1962
I hear you. It is also clear that USN and USAF have different corrosion prevention standards. Agree that the F-35 regardless of variant will probably be qualified to the same location requirements but how about maintenance?

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a568516.pdf

If someone buys the A, would they use airforce or navy standards? I would think its hard to change the impression that the Navy probably has more experience dealing with corrosion in marine or at sea environs.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 04:19
by rheonomic
weasel1962 wrote:The only real questions are A or Bs, where they will be based, where these will be built and how many.

Obviously the solution is to buy both!

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 04:49
by weasel1962
The J-20 report appears to be a mis-read of what the defense minister mentioned.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/si ... s-10485834

“In the market you can only choose what is out there,” he added. “When air forces are choosing replacements, the usual suspects come up: Whether it’s the (European) Typhoons, F-35s, (Russian) Sukhois or Chinese-made stealth fighters.”

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 04:49
by spazsinbad
Heheh. Has one forgotten the FIRST F-35A Base is at where? What kind of environment is there? Do they wash down their aircraft after flight? Oh My Gosh Golly. By the By do the Singas aircraft get washed down after every flight? Anyway yes there are standards and standards but why not have good corrosion prevention in every service. (I've yet to read cited PDF). Already a USN corrosion maintenance PDF has been cited elsewhere here. Preventative maintenance will be the cornerstone of any modern military aircraft where ever it is to be flown. The goody gumdrops have operationally tested the three variants at Eielson AFB in Alaska in WINTER. How corrosive is that with the runway being de-iced. I guess SALT is not used but whatever. This BLEEDin' Aircraft has been tested, is being tested, will be tested frontwards & backwards.

Nice PDF. 05 Oct 2012 Second last page says this:
"Summary
The F-35 has a comprehensive corrosion prevention program
 Leveraged legacy aircraft design lessons learned
Integrated the best processes from Navy and Air Force standards
 Focused on early assessment of materials in an operational environment
 Maintains active engagement in technology development communities

The Summer 2010 Technical Baseline Review validated approach
 No significant gaps in design or testing were identified

Corrosion is always a systems engineering trade
 Suggests a “corrosion-proof” aircraft is unlikely
 Resulting “corrosion-resistant” design improved over legacy LO aircraft..."

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 12:47
by mixelflick
Did the corrosion factor at all into the Singy F-18, F-15, Sukhoi, Mig-29 buy?

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 14:38
by spazsinbad
Only corrosive factor of BullDust on collective brain cells of Singaporeans going TROPPO in their apparently UNIQUE way.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 11:22
by weasel1962
Corrosion has been a consideration for the Singapore air force in all aircraft acquisitions since the A-4. The only AH-64 crash in Singapore was ironically caused by corrosion. Things as minute as tropical fungus which cause corrosion are the strange quirks of aircraft maintenance in the tropics.

To the extent of a different definition of stealthy...
http://www.tec-hub.com.sg/categories/co ... space.html

When an air force operates thousands of fighters, sure, one can laugh about it. When an air force only has a few dozen fighters... some take it a bit more seriously than others.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 11:28
by spazsinbad
However some aircraft are designed to be operated in a sea water tropical environment - TAHDAH! - the F-35 Family, knocking them dead at Eglin AFB Florida and MCAS Beaufort on the East Coast and onboard somewhere off Japan & by the sea at MCAS Iwakuni no less. Deal with it. Kiwi A-4Ks were transported on deck wrapped in plastic, not uncommon because our A4Gs were transported in a similar way. All kinds of 'corrosion control' existed in my day, it was a fact of life.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 11:52
by weasel1962
Its a learning process.

https://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11171r.pdf

The F-35 program has a more robust corrosion design largely due to inclusion of more stringent Navy corrosion qualification tests;...

The study also includes more generic factors that could potentially contribute to corrosion in other weapon systems. These factors are related to current acquisition practices, the application of lessons learned from legacy systems, lack of Air Force expertise with corrosion, and lack of Navy expertise with low-observable technology.


This was as late as 2011. Not everything can be resolved with just a bird bath.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 12:01
by spazsinbad
I did not say it could. Do not misconstrue what I write here. You make a song and dance about corrosion 'in your special environment'. It has been thought about and catered for as best as possible as indicated in the earlier PDFs (have not viewed the last one from 2011?). Get over it. Corrosion control on aircraft operating in different environments has been around since metal became corroded by same. IF Singapore wants to make a big deal about it then so be it. Frankly I don't give a damn. That PDF is Dec 2010 and has been cited several times in this forum:

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=20635&p=235899&hilit=d11171r#p235899
&
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=19035&p=222226&hilit=d11171r#p222226
&
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=15259&p=192818&hilit=d11171r#p192818 (first time - long post)

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 17:46
by spazsinbad
Singapore to announce F-16 fighter jet replacement plans in few months
30 Jun 2018 REUTERS

"Singapore will announce in the next few months plans to replace its ageing F-16 fighter jets, its defense minister said, listing a number of manufacturers that could be in the running for a deal potentially worth billions of dollars....

...Singapore’s F-16s first entered service in 1998. The country has typically used U.S.-made aircraft in the past, making the F35s - a variant of which appeared at the city-state’s airshow back in February - a likely successor.

The head of Lockheed’s international business said in February that Singapore was “seriously evaluating” a future purchase of F-35 jets - one of the world’s most advanced fighters which start at around $80 million (60.56 million pounds) each. He said initial talks with Singapore were centred on the F-35B short take-off and landing variant, which he described as “a nice fit for a smaller land-constrained environment”.

Media reports show that Singapore had intended to buy four F-35s by around 2022, with the option to purchase another eight, but held off taking a decision on this in 2016...."

Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/30/singapo ... onths.html

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 18:16
by spazsinbad
Singapore Discusses a Future Fighter
02 Jul 2018 Chen Chuanren

"The Singapore Ministry of Defence will soon be ready to announce a decision on a replacement for the country’s fleet of 60 Lockheed Martin F-16C/D/D+ Fighting Falcons. In recent years, it has said that it was in no hurry to decide on the F-35. Singapore has been a security cooperative participant in the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter program since 2003....

...Singapore’s F-16C/D pilots have been training at Luke AFB since 1998, adjacent to the USAF F-35 training unit. The Minister and senior RSAF officials have been briefed numerous times on the training and capabilities of the F-35A and F-35B during their visits to Luke AFB.

The U.S. State Department had gone to great lengths to woo Singapore to further commit on the F-35 program. For the first time in recent years, early this year it sent foreign military sales diplomats to the Singapore Airshow to promote the sales of the American military products to Singapore and other Asia-Pacific armed forces, and two U.S. Marine Corps F-35Bs made their debut...."

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... re-fighter

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 03 Jul 2018, 02:37
by Corsair1963
Only real question is F-35A or F-35B??? :?

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2018, 01:49
by spazsinbad
Trawling thru me videos came across this F-35A Eglin AFB Bird Bath Water Spray classic.


Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2018, 03:13
by spazsinbad
Icing will be an issue in the tropics when at altitude, meanwhile the humidity & heat conditions were tested as per below.
F-35 Climatic Chamber Testing & System Verification
16 Apr 2018 Victorio J. Rodriguez, and Billie Flynn; Marc G. Thompson; Steven Brelage

"...II. F-35 vs. Previous Aircraft Climatic Testing
The program level, functional requirements for the F-35 Air System are defined in the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) Contract Specification (JCS). The JCS defines all aspects of the aircraft level requirements, which includes the capability to be parked outside of a hangar and operation in a multitude of extreme environments that naturally occur throughout the world. The environmental requirements are based upon the guidelines for design established in the MIL-HNBK-310 for Global Climatic Data for Developing Military Products. The requirements were tailored early in the program development for the anticipated F-35 aircraft customers and expected operational usage. These requirements served as the basis for the type and extent of testing required for the F-35 SDD program and included a range of ambient temperatures, humidity levels, rainfall, icing, and other environmental conditions. Nearly all new major military aircraft programs include some sort of climatic environment test and evaluation requirement. The testing to satisfy this requirement is traditionally performed at a dedicated facility, performed in naturally occurring environmental conditions, or a combination of both approaches. In legacy aircraft programs, test methods (including natural weather exposure) and facilities, often yielded unpredictable, unrepeatable, and unreliable test conditions and inconclusive results that would not have satisfied the rigorous performance specifications demanded for the F-35....

...The aircraft fuel system architecture delivers fuel from the feed tank(s) to the main engine. In that process, heat is rejected from the various aircraft system heat exchangers into the fuel supply which then is also used to cool the engine oil before being supplied to the engine gas generator to be combusted. In exceptionally hot environments, the summation of the heat sources has the potential to exceed the available fuel sink supply; resulting in an aircraft fluid (e.g. fuel or oil) temperature reaching a prescribed limit value. With the addition of the lift fan and subsequent reduction in fuel volume on board, the F-35B is the most challenged configuration. The F-35 contract specification requirements for the aircraft TMS performance was difficult to verify in a normal test environment because of the complex and multiple systems involved coupled with the rare nature of this exceptionally hot environment. As such, the requirements were verified using modelling and simulation methods. Calibration and validation of those models was key to providing final proof of system design and performance.

The hot day testing that was conducted at McKinley provided significant evidence towards the verification of the TMS requirement to operate to the required time and environmental conditions. During the CCT, elevated ambient temperature testing sequence, the main chamber was setup to simulate the maximum diurnal cycle (24-hour period, with ambient temperature and solar radiation effects included) as specified in the requirements. By the time the engine was started, fuel feed tank temperatures were 10 degrees F above the TMS specification ground rules and assumptions. Despite this elevated system temperature, the aircraft was still able to perform and complete the required time at engine ground idle, then successfully performed a conversion to powered lift mode and executed a simulated Short Takeoff maneuver before reaching the maximum allowable pre-flight fuel system temperature....

IX.F-35 Climatic Testing Results Summary and Lessons Learned
...Airframe and structural characteristics for water tightness, intrusion, and drainage were assessed to predictions and documented. Aircrew evaluation of environmental characteristics in the cockpit was noted for all the environmental conditions tested....

...X.Summary
The end result of all the testing performed was a very successful demonstration and confirmation of the F-35 capability to operate at all the required environmental conditions....

...“The proof is in the pudding” is an expression often used to state that the final results will provide the support and evidence that proper technique and due diligence was taken on the path to aircraft fielding. The increasing number of F-35 aircraft being fielded worldwide to the various services and customers will soon enough provide that proof and, in the end, the authors of this paper are confident that the time spent in the planning and the execution as well as the results and the actions taken from the F-35 CCT will in no small part, be a key factor in the F-35 program’s success sfor decades to come."

Source: F-35 Climatic Chamber Testing & System Verification.pdf (2.5Mb) download/file.php?id=27760

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2018, 15:25
by marsavian
F-35: How the fifth-generation fighter jet might take RSAF to the next level

In a three-part series on the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, Channel NewsAsia’s Aqil Haziq Mahmud visited Lockheed Martin’s production facility for an in-depth look at the fighter jet and how it could be a battlefield game changer.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/si ... n-10815958
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/si ... e-10821506
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/si ... d-10836054



https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/si ... s-10485834

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2018, 23:29
by spazsinbad
'marsavian' posted only the URLs in previous post above so here is a taste of ANOTHER one:
Commentary: The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will change the rules of the air power game
03 Nov 2018 Mike Yeo

"...As far back as 2013, the Ministry of Defence (MINDEF) was known to be evaluating the F-35 among several other fighter types for its F-16 replacement, with reports since then suggesting that Singapore was particularly interested in the F-35B STOVL variant.... [perhaps a flat deck in 2020?]

...Singapore, with its limited strategic depth due to its small land area and number of airbases, will still be able to generate high-end air combat capability to defend itself in the event of its runways being disabled in times of conflict.
Previously, the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) has conducted exercises by turning a stretch of Lim Chu Kang Road adjacent to Tengah Airbase into an alternate runway where fighter jets can take off and land from....

A NIMBLE NODE FOR A NETWORKED FORCE
The F-35 is designed from the start to be more than just a fighter jet. Its ability to function as part of an integrated, networked force is a big plus for Singapore, given MINDEF’s efforts to transform the SAF into what it calls a “3rd-Generation fighting force” that is similarly networked and integrated....

...First, the demonstration of the F-35’s capability of being a network node means that its ability to unleash fire power at enemy targets is not limited by the weapons it can carry itself. Second, the F-35B is able to give friendly forces such as other, less stealthy fighter jets or ground-based rocket systems, the ability to engage those targets without using their own sensors (such as radars) to find targets – therefore lowering the risk of giving away either of their own positions....

ENABLING REGIONAL INTEROPERABILITY
There are several regional air forces already buying F-35s with Australia, an F-35 development partner country who has a close security relationship with Singapore, ordering 72 F-35As.

Australia is also building facilities and infrastructure to support its own F-35s, which includes threat emitter systems to simulate hostile radar and air defences in the same training areas RSAF fighters have used in the past as part of the training agreements Singapore has signed with Australia. These could potentially be used by the RSAF to train with in the future.

In northeast Asia, both Japan and South Korea have ordered F-35As for their own air forces and have reportedly looked into the possibility of operating F-35Bs from ships of their respective navies...."

Source: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/co ... r-10873654

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2018, 15:08
by mixelflick
Well this outta be interesting. F-35's (I suspect a mix of A's and B's) flying alongside thrust vectoring Flankers.

What'd you give to be a fly on the wall after DACT? :)

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2018, 15:34
by weasel1962
That's the purpose of exercise pitch black. The Indians bring their su-30mkis, everyone from the RAAF to USAF to rsaf gets a chance to fly against the suks. Just a matter of time before the RAAF fly their 35As at the exercise. Next year?

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2018, 15:43
by spazsinbad
weasel1962 wrote:That's the purpose of exercise pitch black. The Indians bring their su-30mkis, everyone from the RAAF to USAF to rsaf gets a chance to fly against the suks. Just a matter of time before the RAAF fly their 35As at the exercise. Next year?

RAAF IOC Dec 2020 whilst next year only TWO will be in country for test purposes. Others for 3 Sqdn RAAF to follow later:
"...RAAF Initial Operational Capability with the F-35A is planned for December 2020." http://adbr.com.au/raaf-takes-delivery-of-ninth-f-35a/

"... "Our FOC is December 2023..." Australian Defence Business Review Magazine - March/April 2018 Vol.37 No.2

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 17 Nov 2018, 15:56
by mixelflick
I say they opt for A's and B's, a split order.

Man, LM has to really be stoked. After decades of bad publicity, the F-35 is cleaning up on the world market. More and more countries that weren't partner nations continue to sign up, seeing the aircraft for what it really is. F-35's are flying from almost every corner of the globe, and have already seen combat. This could be the quickest maturation process we've seen in a long time. I hope so, anyway.

I bought a fair amount of LM stock way back when. Boy do I wish I bought more, LOL. But I do re-invest the dividends... :)

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2018, 15:19
by Conan
weasel1962 wrote:That's the purpose of exercise pitch black. The Indians bring their su-30mkis, everyone from the RAAF to USAF to rsaf gets a chance to fly against the suks. Just a matter of time before the RAAF fly their 35As at the exercise. Next year?


Pitch Black is only run every two years. Next one won’t be until mid-late 2020...

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 10:48
by weasel1962
Singapore has officially confirmed F-35 as the F-16 replacement.

https://www.mindef.gov.sg/web/portal/mi ... 18jan19_nr

weasel's note: and in typical Singapore fashion, refused to state number and type.

The Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) and Defence Science and Technology Agency (DSTA) have completed their technical evaluation to select the next generation fighter to replace its F-16s. The F-16s will have to retire soon after 2030 and the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) has been identified as the most suitable replacement to maintain the RSAF's capabilities.

However, the technical evaluation also concluded that the RSAF should first purchase a small number of F-35 JSFs for a full evaluation of their capabilities and suitability before deciding on a full fleet. In the next phase, MINDEF will discuss details with relevant parties in the US before confirming its decision to acquire the F-35 JSFs for Singapore's defence capabilities.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 10:57
by spazsinbad
:oops: More words here but no extra details however I do like the last paragraph... :twisted:
Singapore identifies F-35 fighter jet to replace F-16s, expects to buy ‘small number’ for full testing
18 Jan 2019 Aqil Haziq Mahmud

"...During testing, MINDEF will also work with other parties to take into account ongoing developments and ensure the F-35 is safe to operate." :twisted: [ahh NANNY MINDEF EH - SWEETness] :roll:

Source: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/si ... d-11139654

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 11:06
by weasel1962
The working assumption is that they want to use the B but its too risky to go all in with a full B fleet so they're going to test the B first. That's going to coincide with a number of projects e.g. major airbases shift/redevelopment and the joint multi-mission ship (which they don't need many Bs). If the working assumptions are validated e.g. they can operate the B at sea, that's going to be a full/large B fleet. Otherwise, its back to the tried and tested plan A.

Below was what the Defence Minister posted on his facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/ngenghen/

The Republic of Singapore Air Force's F-16s that were in service since 1998 will have to retire soon after 2030, even after their mid-life upgrades. That’s not very far away, just over 10 years, to acquire their replacement and, just as important, to build the logistic support and train pilots individually and as a fleet to guard our skies.

Happy to report that DSTA Defence Science and Technology Agency and RSAF have completed their technical evaluation for the replacement. It took longer than expected – more than five years – as they had to go through in detail specifications and needs, which they could only do after developmental flight testing of the F-35s was completed in early 2018. They have decided that the F-35 would be the most suitable replacement fighter.

Our agencies will now have to speak to their US counterparts to move the process forward, which may take 9 - 12 months before a decision is made. Even then, we want to procure a few planes first, to fully evaluate the capabilities of the F-35 before deciding on the acquisition of a full fleet. We must prepare well and cater enough time to replace our F-16s.


The announcement confirmed that Singapore waited for end of development.
Key date for more information: 18 Feb - 2019 budget where there are normally juicy snippets in the committee of supply debates.
Also awaiting the long-postponed dsca announcement for F-35s but which has been alluded to which should occur within the next 9-12 months.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 15:15
by mixelflick
The beginning of the end for most 4th gen planes in competitions with the F-35 IMO...

The Poles will be next...

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 17:21
by steve2267
I was unaware Singapore already have a flattop? On what “B” boat are they planning?

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 18:16
by spazsinbad
Search this thread using SHIP for plenty of ship hits. One 2014 example:

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=23202&p=267436&hilit=ship#p267436

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2019, 00:36
by weasel1962
steve2267 wrote:I was unaware Singapore already have a flattop? On what “B” boat are they planning?


No flat-top yet...

Google "joint multi-mission ship".

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2019, 05:10
by spazsinbad
An oldie but a goldie with some colourful language (perhaps just 'howler'conflagration used instead of CONFRONTATION?).
Singapore’s Aircraft Carrier Ambitions [LONG POST PROLLY BEST READ at SOURCE]
11 Mar 2015 Marvin Diaz

"In early March last year, a model of what appeared to be a Landing Helicopter Dock was put on display at the Singapore Air Show. The model betrayed no other information other than the fact that it was a variant of the Endurance class Joint Multi Mission Ship (JMMS). Although the Singapore’s Ministry of Defence (MINDEF) didn’t make that big a deal out of the whole event, it doesn’t take an expert to look beyond the unpretencious façade of the vessel. To look towards Singapore’s growing role in the establishment of security in the maritime domain of South East Asia....

...In an interview in July 2014, Singapore’s Defence Minister – Dr. Ng Eng Hen spoke about the possibility of commissioning larger Joint Multi Mission Ships, to add to the capabilities of existing Landing Platform Dock vessels, already in service. In addition to this, when asked about the possibility of the acquisition of such a vessel, Singapore’s Ministry of Defence (MINDEF) refused to comment on the topic.

However, MINDEF did confirm that Singapore will soon be acquiring F-35B stealth fighters. Analysts heaved a sign of relief when confirmation came from a rather unusual source. In July 2013, US Air Force General Herbert Carlisle unwittingly disclosed that Singapore’s Chief of Defence Force, Lt. Gen. Ng Chee Meng had confided to him that Singapore had planned to procure the F-35B.

The decision to procure the B variant of the F-35 and the apparent shift in policy in favor of larger Joint Multi Misson Ships (JMMS) point towards Singapore’s regional aspirations. It is plain to see that Singapore has taken it upon them to balance China’s assertiveness.

Though it seems like Singapore’s Ministry of Defence has made up its mind, what are the reasons behind this decision?...

...The lack of real estate can be offset by introducing an off shore floating base of operations. In simple words, an aircraft carrier. Singapore’s Ministry of Defence is taking this option very seriously. But how will they go about acquiring this vessel? The most likely route that will be taken by the Minstry of Defence is to issue the tender to a Singaporean firm. If they are to go down this road, it will be a huge step forward for Singapore’s naval industry. An aircraft carrier is a huge leap from the Endurance class Landing Platform Docks currently in service with the Republic of Singapore Navy (RSN).

The second and less likely option would be to procure an existing vessel and carry out an extensive refurbishment.

Despite all the layers of defences, an aircraft carrier’s most potent weapon is the aircraft that operate off of it. Singapore was a Security Cooperative Participant in the F-35 programme for more than a decade and the F 35B has been in the sights of RSN officials for years, but no steps have been made to show interest in the procurement of this aircraft or its variants...."

Graphic: https://i2.wp.com/www.defenceaviation.c ... /Singapore’s-Aircraft-Carrier.jpg URL IS BROKE so here is the TINY: https://tinyurl.com/yaosassy


Source: https://www.defenceaviation.com/2015/03 ... tions.html

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 21 Jan 2019, 11:09
by weasel1962
Nice article explaining some of the thinking locally. Author used to work for the main broadsheet as their defense journalist.

https://www.todayonline.com/commentary/ ... ghter-jets

Singapore announced on Friday (Jan 18) that it would buy a "small number" of F-35 Joint Strike Fighters for "a full evaluation of their capabilities and suitability before deciding on a full fleet". If the sparse 127-word Ministry of Defence (Mindef) statement spread over two paragraphs left you with more questions than answers, you are in good company.

Two key questions remain.
First, is the Lockheed-Martin F-35 — the most advanced warplane that friends of the United States can buy — the chosen one that will replace Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) F-16s? It is a critical decision as single and double-seat variants of the F-16 are currently the most numerous fighter type in the RSAF. Literature touting the superiority of the new generation multi-role F-35 inevitably ends up downplaying capabilities of F-16s that were once Lockheed's best-selling fighter jet.

Second, what is the RSAF's Plan B if the F-35 fails the evaluation? Singapore's search for an F-16 replacement is the RSAF's longest and most complex fighter evaluation. It was launched formally in March 2004 when the Republic paid an initial US$50 million for what was essentially observer status on the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) programme, giving it insights into the evolution of the multi-role fighter aircraft now known as the F-35 Lightning II. After 15 years eyeing the JSF, with the RSAF and Defence Singapore Technology Agency (DSTA) investing the last five years on a technical evaluation, a firm order from Singapore beyond the test airframes continues to elude Lockheed.

When one considers the longevity of the JSF programme, the popularity of fighter jets and copious amounts of literature on the internet debating the merits (or lack thereof), teething issues and cost of the F-35, it is not surprising that the topic has captivated many people in Singapore and abroad.

There are broadly two camps: supporters who feel the F-35 is a game changer, and detractors who argue that the F-35 is an overpriced lemon. (The F-35A conventional take-off and landing model costs almost US$90 million, while the short-takeoff F-35B model costs US$115.5 million.)

Singapore's reputation as a tough and discerning defence customer makes its decision on the F-35 closely watched. Alas, Mindef's skimpy statement on Friday left both camps somewhat perplexed. Fans of the F-35 were disappointed the fighter jet was not declared a clear winner but nonetheless relieved that it is still in the running. Opponents were disappointed the aircraft was not dropped outright after such a lengthy assessment but nonetheless relieved that only a handful — possibly as few as two aircraft — will be used for a thorough assessment.

DEAL OR NOR DEAL?

Mindef and DSTA, Singapore's national authority for weapons acquisitions, appear to be pacing the project prudently and responsibly. Singapore's try-before-buy approach is not unique among JSF customers and has precedents locally. For example, Australia and the Netherlands both acquired two F-35s for tests before buying 100 and 37 fighters respectively. In Singapore, several second-hand Sjoormen-class submarines were bought from Sweden in the 1990s to assess the suitability and capability of these undersea hunters. The successful submarine trials led to the formation of the Republic's submarine force, which is now the largest in South-east Asia.

For the F-35, RSAF and DSTA will have to assess how well the jets can integrate with the Singapore Armed Forces’ network of weapons and sensors. The small number of F-35 test aircraft will therefore serve as prototypes for Lockheed to customise the fighter to the RSAF's specific operational requirements. There should be some latitude for Singapore to recommend enhancements that will facilitate the exchange of data securely and in near real-time, now that other F-35 customers have done likewise.

The F-35 must also adapt to Singapore's equatorial weather. The RSAF learned a hard lesson in 2010 after an Apache attack helicopter crash landed in Woodlands. The investigation found that corrosion of an engine part sooner than maintenance cycles could detect the degradation contributed to the crash. The component failed as a result of operating in Singapore's airspace, which has high salinity as sea breezes constantly fan across the island.

It was a crucial lesson that both the RSAF and Boeing, the Apache manufacturer, appreciated as the near-miss has tightened the maintenance regime to prevent similar incidents. As a result, Apache flights in places close to the sea are now safer.

Defence Minister Dr Ng Eng Hen said in a Facebook post that the next stage of the F-35 evaluation could take nine to 12 months.

A potential deal-breaker could come from the reluctance of the Americans to allow Singapore to make the modifications it needs to maximise the F-35's potency and effectiveness. Past hang-ups over access to source codes that control sensitive electronic warfare equipment have seen Singapore turn to alternative vendors to fulfil the RSAF's operational requirements.
But when Washington is prepared to work with the Lion City, a win-win partnership blossoms that benefits American industry and enhances the SAF's defence readiness.

This brings us to a discussion on Plan B.

Even without the F-35, the RSAF can still command a numerical and technological edge if alternative jet fighters are introduced to replace the RSAF's fleet of 60 F-16s. Upgrades to the existing stable of fighter types from the US and Europe make new variants of existing fighters such as the F-15, Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale potent adversaries in the air-to-air and air-to-ground arenas.

These fighter types may lack the F-35's stealthiness but are no pushovers in combat. Introduced in meaningful numbers in an integrated air defence network, a future RSAF fighter force sans the F-35 can still represent a formidable deterrent.

Observers are correct to point out the F-35 is the only choice when one is looking for a fighter plane that can integrate information from sensors on the aircraft and data supplied by external sensors like ground radars and warships.

But there are alternatives if one thinks outside the box. For instance, technology might develop from now till 2030 for us to see unmanned combat aerial vehicles operate with advanced sensor fusion and networked capabilities. These might even end up being more stealthy and manoeuverable than manned fighter jets.

Whatever conclusion is reached eventually, the sparse Mindef news release on the F-35 will not be the last we will hear on this subject. Exciting possibilities are in the works and for the future of the RSAF's air power.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR:
David Boey is a member of Mindef's Advisory Council on Community Relations in Defence. A former defence journalist who has visited fighter aircraft factories in the US, Britain and France, he attended the F-35B flight demonstration and static display held for Minister for Defence Ng Eng Hen in December 2013 at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 21 Jan 2019, 11:25
by Corsair1963
Upgrades to the existing stable of fighter types from the US and Europe make new variants of existing fighters such as the F-15, Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale potent adversaries in the air-to-air and air-to-ground arenas.

These fighter types may lack the F-35's stealthiness but are no pushovers in combat. Introduced in meaningful numbers in an integrated air defence network, a future RSAF fighter force sans the F-35 can still represent a formidable deterrent.



Actually, "NO" as Singapore would have to face Chinese J-20's and J-31's. No, 4.5 Generation Fighter would be adequate! :doh:

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 21 Jan 2019, 15:17
by weasel1962
...which would have made perfect sense if Singapore was anywhere near China...

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 21 Jan 2019, 17:49
by SpudmanWP
Given China's expansionist policy in (read "invasion of") the South China Sea, it's a prudent move to arm yourself against the eventuality.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 21 Jan 2019, 18:39
by weasel1962
...which would also make perfect sense if Singapore actually owned anything in the South China sea. Otherwise Zimbabwe, like Singapore, and every other country should also buy F-35s since China is going to invade the South China sea...

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 21 Jan 2019, 19:34
by SpudmanWP
Singapore, being on the southern tip of Malaysia, is on the Southwestern border of the South China Sea... Just a bit closer than Zimbabwe :mrgreen:

Your mistake is assuming that "all they want" is the South China Sea. Chamberlain made the same mistake.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 21 Jan 2019, 20:20
by lbk000
I think its likely China will make neither Chamberlain's nor Hitler's mistake. China will not overtly invade any other nation, because they understand well the modern, civilized method of pursuing interests through influence. Taking just the SCS may well be deemed sufficient to achieve dominant influence in the region.

In this sense I consider the F-35 important for Singapore less so for any actual tactical applications, but rather as a political check. With the F-35, Singapore cements itself as a leader in the region for all nations wishing to retain bargaining power against China.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 02:33
by weasel1962
It may surprise some people but not everyone acquires the F-35 with China specifically in mind... Singapore is not going head to head against China who has more 200 times its population and Singapore has carefully avoided alliances that could trigger exactly that, notwithstanding the F-35 being a magic plane. Even if the domino theory applies, China has got to get through a number of other countries before it ever gets to be a direct threat to Singapore (carriers included). The biggest being Taiwan. If China ever reach anywhere near Singapore to be a threat, it would already have defeated the US, probably its European and Far Eastern allies etc, to which a few F-35s operated by Singapore isn't going to make much of a difference.

What is more relevant tactically to Singapore is the prevalence of Sukhoi variants in the South East Asian region and potentially Su-57. The latest to express an interest in the Su-57 being Vietnam. That is probably a bigger driver tactically for an F-35 than any imagined drummed up threat of China.

The difference between Germany in 1939 and China in 2019 is that Hitler practiced Lebensraum which was land expansion to manage population growth. In contrast, the China population will decline. imho, south china sea is a oil and gas resource grab and the Chinese are already there. Despite the drummed up threat from certain quarters, none of the countries actually in the SCS want a fight because resource exploitation can only happen in peace. Singapore has no natural resources. The threat of China to Singapore is as great as the threat of China to Zimbabwe.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 03:36
by skyward
Maybe you guys are over thinking it. Singapore may just want the F-35 because it is the best future proof multi-role jet out there right now.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 22 Jan 2019, 04:58
by weasel1962
skyward wrote:Maybe you guys are over thinking it. Singapore may just want the F-35 because it is the best future proof multi-role jet out there right now.


+1. Agreed. The still unanswered question is whether A or B.

The first government sourced quote on B buy was reported by Gen Herbert Carlisle so its not exactly speculation. See Spaz's post of 15 Aug 2013 16.01pm on pg 5 of this thread. The cost and capabilities differential was already known in 2013. Has anything changed between 2013 and today to change that dynamic? Same Government, same defense minister, different chief of air force and an explanation for the delay: waiting for development testing to complete.

More commentary, this time from DN's Mike Yeo, explaining the Singapore thought & procurement process.
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/co ... r-11147932

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 08:34
by weasel1962
Singapore to buy 4 F-35 + 8 options in letter of request to US government. FMS approval by congress to follow. Trump "welcomed" decision. DoD already approved it.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/si ... 9-11300934

In typical Singapore fashion, the price range of $90m (A) to $115m (B) does not reveal type yet. Total cost similar to F-15SG. This is revealed in committee of supply debate which typically happens after the budget is announced. Won't be surprised if the FMS indicates either A or B...although previously it was indicated that it would be 12 Bs.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 02:25
by weasel1962
Regardless of the version, the Singapore air force will need to integrate the F-35 with its CAEW. It thus makes sense that a request for Derby integration (embargo/use risk eliminated) will also happen. The missile integration (including with CAEW) is already performed by the Israelis. Aim-120, Derby and Israeli-built G550 CAEW are already in service with the Singapore air force.

The B variant, if chosen, would be easy to incorporate "small" numbers of meteor and spear 3 as this is already being integrated by the UK. Both munitions are not restricted by MTCR.

If so, this may be the only variant that is Derby, AIM-120 and Meteor-equipped. This is consistent with the Singapore policy of multiple anti-aircraft munition. This is practiced with SAMs (Aster 15/30, VL-Mica, RBS-70, Hawk, Rapier, Spyder (Python/Derby), Igla, Mistral and other unnamed types).

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 03:37
by weasel1962
https://www.mindef.gov.sg/web/portal/mi ... r19_speech

Full speech transcript by minister above.

For MRCV, looks very much like the proposed sovereign class frigates built by ST.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 06:03
by SpudmanWP
CAEW can be done now with Link-16 and in the future with a gateway like Fredom550 which gives you MADL.

Weapons are another issue. There are basically two quick paths, emulation and UAI. If Israel is smart (which they are), they are pushing UAI driver development to all of their mfgs. Hell, even Turkey was smart enough to go this route with their SOM-J. The other option is emulation where the weapon talks to the fighter as if it's something the fighter is already cleared to use.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 10:40
by spazsinbad
Singapore moves to buy four F-35s, possibly eight more afterward
01 Mar 2019 Mike Yeo

"MELBOURNE, Australia — Singapore will seek to buy four Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighters for a start, with an option to purchase eight more, according to the southeast Asian nation’s defense minister.

Speaking in Parliament on Friday, Ng Eng Hen said Singapore will submit a letter of request to the United States for the purchase, adding that “Singapore has the endorsement of both the U.S. administration and the Department of Defense for our proposed purchase of F-35s.”

He did not disclose which version of the F-35 Singapore will request when asked by lawmakers, although he was quoted as ruling out buying the “aircraft-carrier version” of the F-35, and told Parliament that the unit price of the aircraft “ranges from U.S. $90 million to U.S. $115 million.”...

...The country typically makes its combat aircraft acquisitions in small, incremental batches, so the relatively small order is not much of a surprise. If the option for the additional aircraft is picked up, Singapore will have the numbers to launch a training detachment, likely based in the United States, to train pilots and maintainers...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... afterward/

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 14:03
by weasel1962
The "aircraft carrier" version is the f-35c. That's consistent with the vids.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 14:06
by spazsinbad
:devil: :doh: WOW - I did not know that. :doh: :devil:

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 18:03
by spazsinbad
8) Interestin' tidbit in this news report. :shock: You'll have to get past the headline - I did. :doh: :roll:
F-35C Achieves IOC; Singapore Details Initial F-35 Buy
01 Mar 2019 David Donald & Chen Chuanren

"...On March 1, Singapore released some more details about its intended F-35 procurement. The country has announced that it will make an initial purchase of four F-35 Lightning IIs, with an option for eight more as the replacement for its F-16 fleet. The initially small number of aircraft is for a final full evaluation by the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) on its capability. The next step is for the Ministry of Defence to issue a Letter of Request (LOR) to the United States to seek Congressional approval for the Foreign Military Sales (FMS).

“Our LOR will request an initial acquisition of four F-35s, with the option of a subsequent eight if we decide to proceed,” Defence Minister Dr. Ng Eng Hen told the Singapore Parliament at the Committee of Supply debate on March 1. Ng said that the U.S. Administration and the Department of Defense have endorsed the purchase and both President Donald Trump and Acting Secretary of Defense Patrick Shanahan have welcomed Singapore’s plan.

Ng said the unit price of the F-35 has been steadily falling due to healthy orders, and the ministry’s procurement arm, Defence Science and Technology Agency (DSTA), said it is “an opportune time” to make Singapore’s request. He added that the unit price for each jet is ranging from US$90 million to US$115 million, comparable to that for Singapore’s F-15SG. Similarly, the total cost of ownership, including maintenance across its lifespan, is close to that of the F-15.

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... l-f-35-buy

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 02:39
by weasel1962
The other nuggets in the COS speech was "Joint Multi-Mission Ships", in the plural form not once but twice mentioned. If the F-35B is embarked onboard, it may not be just one vessel.

Also, the Minister confirmed that post 2030, "the RSAF fighter fleet will consist of F-35s and F-15SGs". That means 3 squadrons of F-16s to be replaced. Clearly it will not be just 12 F-35s.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 02:55
by steve2267
The Killer Bee seems tailor made for Singapore. Unless Singapore truly needs the range of the Model A, the Bee gives the RSAF / RNAF a lot of basing options from airfields to roads to ships. Would seem to greatly complicate an adversary's planning.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 03:58
by weasel1962
The A vs B’s range comparison is less relevant in Singapore’s case. Beyond ~600nm, the A will need aerial refuel. Beyond ~450nm, the B will need aerial refuel. The difference would be material only if there is no air tankers available. There is also no targets between 450nm and 600nm that make an A that necessary and rules out a B (which could in theory still bridge that gap between 450nm to 600nm with drop tanks or just longer ranged munitions). If there are air tankers available, then it just means the B tops up earlier. The 6 A330 that will be operated by RSAF (4 of which are already operational by Nov 2018) can fuel more than a dozen F-35Bs per sortie (less F-35As principally because of larger fuel tank).

The real difference is in cost. Why pay more for a B? The USMC justification is easy. No other plane can fly off an LHD. Japan realised that. The UK case was a bit more difficult, their CVs could have flown the F-35C, if they had designed it so from the start. Was the Israel case a bridge too far for Bs?

The F-35A may still be the best variant for land basing. Like other conventional fighters, it can take off from road runways and land quickly with parachutes. B variant is about flexible basing beyond roads and runways. Singapore is too small to operate QE-sized CVs but LHDs are already in the works, no conversion required.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 09:34
by weasel1962
Did this 9 years back to illustrate that the Singapore intended ops area is well-covered even for a B. Beyond the range circles, air refuel would apply.

Image
Image

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2019, 20:52
by spazsinbad
Singapore Plan Implies F-35 Order Complete In 2020s
13 Mar 2019 Marhalim Abas & Bradley Perrett

"KUALA LUMPUR, BEIJING—Singapore will retire its 60 Lockheed Martin F-16s by 2030, a government presentation suggests, implying that acquisition of F-35 Lightnings will be completed in the [2020s] … [NO SUBscription]

Source: https://aviationweek.com/awindefense/si ... lete-2020s

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2019, 01:20
by weasel1962
The avweek report may need some context.

(a) The F-16 upgrade will be completed in 2023. Will these be deployed for under a decade especially factoring the cost of upgrade?
(b) Singapore acquisition in the past has generally been 1 squadron every 5 years. This is intentional to avoid large acquisitions.
(c) The initial F-35 buy was already stated for test. Will they go full buy before testing is complete?
(d) 140 sqn and 143 sqn being the oldest are more likely to be replaced first as they will reach 30 years from FOC by 2030. However 145 sqn operating the later F-16D Blk52+ only FOC in 2006. Will they operating these for under 30 years?

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2019, 06:19
by weasel1962
Interesting article from lowyinstitute

https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-inter ... t-purchase

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2019, 06:44
by spazsinbad
:devil: Gotta luv lack of proofreading so we cannot blame the author for this Singaporean F-35B variant display top of page:
"F-35B on display at the Singapore airshow in 2018 (Photo: SeongJoon Cho via Getty)"

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2019, 07:13
by weasel1962
If I recall, the B was parked on the right of the raptor.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2019, 07:19
by spazsinbad
8) :devil: Must have been :roll: INVISIBLE :shock: otherwise to the caption maker then. :mrgreen: :doh:

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2019, 07:45
by weasel1962
Its stealthy, not invisible. Nose cone is visible.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2019, 09:02
by popcorn
Just proves that the F-35 is stealthier than the Raptor. LOL

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2019, 09:09
by spazsinbad
weasel1962 wrote:Its stealthy, not invisible. Nose cone is visible.

So the caption maker should have seen it then?

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 18 Mar 2019, 22:08
by ricnunes
popcorn wrote:Just proves that the F-35 is stealthier than the Raptor. LOL


LOL :mrgreen:

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2019, 11:03
by weasel1962
In typical stealth fashion...last month.

https://www.mfa.gov.sg/Newsroom/Press-S ... nald-Trump

welcomed Singapore’s decision to acquire four F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, with an option for eight more in the future.


Looks like this is already a done deal. Noted this in Sep but wanted to until the FMS notice is out. May have to wait longer.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 22 Oct 2019, 14:51
by mixelflick
Well, this is exciting if not expected.

Malaysian Flankers are just next door, wonder if they'll perform DACT? In any case, the skies above each are set to become a lot more interesting in the coming years!

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2019, 00:55
by popcorn
The lack of any drama in the Singapore acquisition is refreshing or boring, take your pick. :devil:

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 09 Dec 2019, 09:55
by weasel1962
Singapore to establish an F-16/F-15 fighter training detachment on Guam. Singapoe F-15 fighter training with PACAF on Guam started in 2017. Guam is ~2,538nm from Singapore.

https://www.mindef.gov.sg/web/portal/mi ... 07dec19_fs

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2020, 01:10
by spazsinbad
Singapore gets the green light to buy F-35s
09 Jan 2020 Valerie Insinna

"WASHINGTON — The U.S. government on Thursday formally approved Singapore to become the next customer of the F-35 joint strike fighter, paving the way for a future sale.

Last year, Singaporean Defense Minister Ng Eng Hen announced that the country would submit a letter of request to the U.S. government to purchase four F-35B short takeoff and landing jets, with the intention of a total of 12 B models.

The U.S. State Department endorsement made Jan. 9 would allow Singapore to move ahead with purchasing those jets, at an estimated cost of $2.75 billion, according to the Defense Security Cooperation Agency.

Also included in the proposed deal are up to 13 Pratt & Whitney F135 engines, unspecified electronic warfare and communications systems, training equipment, and the Autonomic Logistics Information System used for mission planning, maintenance and other logistics functions....

...A contract with Lockheed Martin would make Singapore the 12th country to buy the F-35, following Australia, Belgium, Denmark, Israel, Italy, Japan , Netherlands, Norway, South Korea, the United Kingdom and the United States. Canada, a partner of the F-35 program, has not yet committed to buying jets, while Turkey was booted from the program last summer over its decision to field a Russian S-400 air defense system."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/01 ... buy-f-35s/

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2020, 01:46
by weasel1962
It took long enough. There seems to be some certificate issues with the dsca site, link below.

https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/s ... l-aircraft

The pdf version of the announcement is attached.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2020, 02:07
by steve2267
Why the Killer Bees?

I went back a page and refreshed my memory... we had discussed -A vs -B models, and the consensus seemed to be that the additional range of the -A doesn't get Singapore anything, i.e. the range of the -B is sufficient for Singapore's needs. I had suggested the -B gives Singapore more basing options, but someone else replied that the -A can also operate from roads etc. At one point I had inquired about Killer Bee for shipboard use by Singapore, but could swear that I was "schooled" about the size of the Singaporean Navy and that they don't have enough bodies to fully man a "carrier" (i.e. a LHD-style Lightning carrier).

Has the rationale for why the -B model for Singapore been explained?

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2020, 02:12
by quicksilver
“Has the rationale for why the -B model for Singapore been explained?“

Same reason the IAF has thought about it.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2020, 02:16
by steve2267
quicksilver wrote:“Has the rationale for why the -B model for Singapore been explained?“

Same reason the IAF has thought about it.


We discuss everything F-35-related on here to death. I guess I missed the part where Singapore had mentioned or discussed the -B as being interesting to them from a basing / flexibility perspective. I get it, I just don't recall us picking that subject apart.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2020, 02:20
by weasel1962
Multiple reasons.

(1) The STOVL allows short take-off & vertical landing i.e. no need large base. That allows the Singapore government to redevelop an entire airbase (Paya Lebar airbase) into commercial & residential property in 2030. That redevelopment will more than offset the cost of the aircraft (and future aircraft). Cost will be a big election issue.
(2) This is aligned with their alliance requirements. FPDA means potential for cross basing with UK's CVs. Was it coincidence that Izumo was also in Singapore for Imdex (see pic)
(3) STOVL looks d*mn good for independence day celebrations - yet another election requirement
(4) Big recruitment incentive for future pilots.
(5) If coupled with LHD = more training locations unimpeded by neighboring sovereign issues.
(6) The small numbers & lesser "perceived" performance of the B vs A means less threat perceived by neighbors.
(7) Timed with the announcement of China's Shandong carrier commissioning...although offically no link.

LHD staffing is not really that big an issue. They operate 4 endurance LPDs which combined can staff 1 LHD. The LHD is already an announced project termed as the "joint multi-mission ship" or JMMS.

I raised this possibility 10 years back with all the explanations and considerations already mentioned in the thread below (firstly under the nick "slim10" before I changed to the weasel nick later in the thread.
https://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/355608/

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2020, 02:37
by quicksilver
steve2267 wrote:
quicksilver wrote:“Has the rationale for why the -B model for Singapore been explained?“

Same reason the IAF has thought about it.


I just don't recall us picking that subject apart.


I don’t know that we did.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2020, 04:32
by weasel1962
Just to explain a bit further how point (1) is relatively unique to Singapore. Land in Singapore is one of the most expensive in the world. (~US$5,000 per square meter average cost from 2015-2018).
https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/real-e ... velopments

If Singapore had bought the F-35A, they would have paid ~US$2 billion for 12 or roughly US$10 billion for 60 (to replace the 60 F-16s they have). They would have to keep the Paya Lebar airbase because they only have 1 other fighter airbase (Tengah) whilst Changi is the civilian airport.

By buying the F-35B, they pay US$2.75 billion for 12 or ~US$14 billion for 60. As the F-35B can take off from short runways, that adds 2 runways at the helicopter base in Sembawang, the UAV runway at Tengah and the civilian airport runway at Seletar i.e. adding 4 runways that can be used by the F-35B but not the F-15/16s or F-35As due to the shorter runway lengths. So now the MoD can afford to lose the runway at Paya Lebar airbase.

Paya lebar airbase's size is 800 hectares (8 km2) or 8 million square meters. At $5k per m2, that translates into potentially up to US$40 billion in land sales, not counting the added economic benefits to GDP of construction and development. So for the extra cost of $4 billion they get:

- 4 more runways for the loss of 1
- Significant economic benefits (US$40b +)
- A fully funded fighter replacement program + LHDs
- political electoral cover for spending on an expensive fighter program

The LHDs are just icing on the cake. It also hints at whether Singapore go for a 1 for 1 replacement for their F-16s.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2020, 04:55
by marsavian
Has the government said it would sell an airbase or is that just a potential benefit you can see ? After all they may just justify it on security grounds i.e. more dispersed basing/runway options including new LHDs.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2020, 07:24
by weasel1962
The airbase relocation was announced in Aug 2013 (see pmo website link) with a planned date after 2030. That hinted that the F-35B plan had been hatched many years back already.
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/ ... -base-gone
https://www.pmo.gov.sg/Newsroom/prime-m ... 13-english

This also impacts the various US units housed at the base (mainly logistics units) that would shift to Changi airbase.
Operationally, there is some thought into whether the new Guam air force training arrangement ties into joint USMC-singapore training. So we might see F-35Bs flying there.
Many foreign F-16 training units at Luke have also been asked to shift out of luke. It is likely the Luke training arrangements will end. Interesting to speculate where the CONUS training will happen.

As to the LHD, the Government has been very coy on how the JMMS would look.
https://www.mindef.gov.sg/oms/navy/care ... pment.html

The USMC LHD that's stationed in Pacfleet regularly stopsover in Singapore. It would be interesting to see whether USMC LHDs might one day play host to international F-35Bs from UK, Italy, Japan, Korea and Singapore.

The previous modus operandi for the Singapore air force have been influenced by USAF doctrine. It now appears to be drifting towards marine conops. They have the himars and are heavily involved in the himars rocket munition program.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2020, 09:49
by quicksilver
“The USMC LHD that's stationed in Pacfleet regularly stopsover in Singapore. It would be interesting to see whether USMC LHDs might one day play host to international F-35Bs from UK, Italy, Japan, Korea and Singapore.“

Marine Corps LHDs. Does the CNO know about that yet?

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2020, 10:43
by spazsinbad
quicksilver wrote:“The USMC LHD that's stationed in Pacfleet regularly stopsover in Singapore. It would be interesting to see whether USMC LHDs might one day play host to international F-35Bs from UK, Italy, Japan, Korea and Singapore.“
Marine Corps LHDs. Does the CNO know about that yet?

Yep - theys the ones with LIGHTINGS/LIGHTENINGS onboard. You know the LIGHTING/enlightening/LIGHTENING CARRIER.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2020, 09:58
by weasel1962
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/co ... s-12250968

Commentary: The road to getting the F-35s up and ready for Singapore

The US Department of Defence announced an approval of sale of up to 12 F-35s to Singapore on Friday. The Republic of Singapore Air Force will face challenges operationalising this advanced fighter jet once it takes delivery. Mike Yeo paints what the road ahead looks like.

MELBOURNE: As history has shown us, it is one thing for militaries to buy advanced, high-tech weaponry that look good at national parades, it is another to be able to use it effectively and decisively when push comes to shove.

From the decisive defeats Israel inflicted on the well-equipped Arab armies in 1967 and 1973, to the Saudi-led coalition’s ongoing struggle to defeat Houthi insurgents in Yemen despite the oil-rich kingdom being the world’s top arms importer between 2014 and 2018 - there is ample evidence showing militaries need to focus on adequately training and integrating new platforms to become an effective fighting force.

The challenge of gaining proficiency on, and integrating a new, technologically advanced platform is not new to the Singapore Armed Forces (SAF).

Singapore’s impending purchase of the Lockheed-Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter will however present a new test of the SAF’s ability to successfully do so.

That purchase moved one step closer to reality when the US Department of Defence announced an approval of a sale of up to 12 F-35s and related equipment to Singapore on Friday (Jan 10).

A GAME-CHANGING FIGHTER JET

As has been described before, the F-35 suite of stealthy networking capabilities will be a game-changer, with the potential to radically transform how militaries operate not just in the air but in the land and sea domains as well.

The F-35B variant, which Singapore has requested to purchase, has also a lift fan, essentially a second engine that directs additional thrust downwards, that allows the fighter jet to take off and land vertically, without the need for a long runway.

For land-scarce Singapore, merging three airbases into two in the near future, this added capability will give the country a needed boost in its air power generation capabilities.

Coupled with the SAF’s push in recent years to transform itself into a networked force, the need to fully utilise the F-35’s game-changing technology and ensure it is fully integrated into the SAF will take on an added layer of importance and potential complexity.

THE TRAINING NEEDED TO GET PILOTS UP TO SPEED

Defence Minister Ng Eng Hen has previously said Singapore’s F-16s will start to be phased out around 2030.

By this time, the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF)’s future F-35 pilots would have started training on the jet, with Singapore’s first handful of aircraft having already been delivered, almost certainly at an overseas training detachment.
At first glance, the prime candidate for this training detachment would appear to be Luke Air Force Base just outside of Phoenix, Arizona.

So how would the F-35’s introduction to service look like?

The base is where the RSAF’s Peace Carvin II F-16 training detachment is located, having been there continually over more than two decades, and is also where the US Air Force’s Air Education and Training Command will train American and international F-35 pilots for the foreseeable future.

However, the USAF and most international users will operate the conventional take-off and landing F-35A variant.

Hence, it might make more sense to set up a training detachment at one of the US Marine Corps’ bases, given that the Marines are the service operating the F-35B and the RSAF can leverage on their experience on the unique capabilities of the F-35B – the same model the UK and Italy employ, and which Japan has also ordered.

Between 2015 and last August, the UK Royal Air Force operated a small detachment of its aircraft alongside a Marine F-35B training squadron at Marine Combat Air Station (MCAS) Beaufort in South Carolina for crew training purposes, before heading back home last year.

Given that the infrastructure, such as simulators and other support equipment at bases like Beaufort (or MCAS Yuma in Arizona where the Marines will also be basing F-35Bs at) will be specific to the F-35B, the case for the RSAF setting up a training detachment at these bases is stronger than anywhere else.

Training may also involve partnership programmes with friendly air forces that have purchased the F-35B variant – which on top of the US and UK, include Italy and Australia, countries that the RSAF have very friendly ties with and have training spaces in or made training deployments to.

THE ROAD TO FULL OPERATIONAL CAPABILITY

The setting up of an overseas training detachment will be followed by the first aircraft heading back to Singapore, to form the nucleus of the first locally-based RSAF F-35 squadron.

The next major milestone for the squadron would be attaining Initial Operational Capability (IOC) with the F-35.
The criteria for IOC would be determined by the RSAF and differ from other operators, but it would likely be pegged to a certain number of aircraft delivered, the number of air and ground crew trained to perform an initial set of missions and roles, and the ability to deploy a pre-determined number of aircraft for operations.

Full operational capability (FOC) for the F-35 will follow, which is typically declared a few years after IOC.

By this time, the first RSAF squadron would have received its full complement of aircraft, a cadre of crew trained to carry out the full range of missions and the platform integrated into the RSAF.

The F-35 will have been integrated into Singapore’s Island Air Defence Network, a locally developed systems-of systems network that enables all air defence sensors and platforms to be linked under a single communication protocol.

The RSAF will also almost certainly have taken part in overseas exercises with the F-35 by this time, for benchmarking and interoperability training with foreign partners, in addition to integration training within the SAF itself.

Given the RSAF’s cautious entry into the F-35 programme following a history of development delays and cost overruns, the path towards IOC and FOC will have been well-trodden by other operators by the time it is Singapore’s turn, which will help the RSAF in gaining an understanding of how to tailor its own processes.

Using the Boeing F-15SG Eagle as a rough guide, the first RSAF jet arrived at the Peace Carvin V detachment at Mountain Home, Idaho in the US in May 2009, followed by the arrival of the first jets in Singapore in April 2010 to form the nucleus of 149 Squadron at Paya Lebar Airbase. The squadron then declared FOC in October 2013.

It is however by no means certain that the introduction of the F-35 will follow a similar timeframe. The time taken to reach the IOC and FOC milestones is dependent on several different variables, and the integration of the F-35 into the SAF may well be very different from its predecessors, given its complex suite of capabilities.

RENOVATED BASE INFRASTRUCTURE

Singapore’s air bases will also change with the arrival of the F-35 in Singapore. This goes beyond the base realignment that has already been announced so far, which will see Paya Lebar Air Base close in the 2030s to free up land for other uses and the aircraft, equipment and personnel moved to the expanded Tengah and Changi East airbases.

Work at whichever base(s) the RSAF’s F-35s will be stationed at will also need to take into account US security requirements for F-35 basing.

Essentially, an extra layer of fencing will need to be built around all F-35 parking areas, along with additional security arrangements.

These include limiting access to these areas only to personnel specially cleared to enter, essentially turning it into an airbase within an airbase.

Another upgrade would entail the building of landing pads to allow F-35B pilots to conduct vertical landing training and operations on. These pads would need to be specially reinforced to withstand the intense downward heat generated by the F-35B’s powerful engine as it lands vertically.

The F-35 looks set to transform the global air power landscape in the next few decades. It also has the potential to transform how Singapore will use air power and leverage technology to defend itself.

Introducing its capabilities into the RSAF would be a complex task, and one whose success is crucial to maximising its potential with the SAF.

Mike Yeo is the Asia reporter for US-based defence publication Defense News.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2020, 10:18
by spazsinbad
"...At first glance, the prime candidate for this training detachment would appear to be Luke Air Force Base just outside of Phoenix, Arizona...."

IF the 'singers' are buyin' BEEs then they'll go to MCAS Beaufort for USMC F-35B training and / or go to the OLD DART to train with UK F-35Bs at their CRAB base Marham. LUKE they will not go for F-35A training. DUH. I JUMPED THE GUN...
"...However, the USAF and most international users will operate the conventional take-off and landing F-35A variant.

Hence, it might make more sense to set up a training detachment at one of the US Marine Corps’ bases, given that the Marines are the service operating the F-35B and the RSAF can leverage on their experience on the unique capabilities of the F-35B – the same model the UK and Italy employ, and which Japan has also ordered.

Between 2015 and last August, the UK Royal Air Force operated a small detachment of its aircraft alongside a Marine F-35B training squadron at Marine Combat Air Station (MCAS) Beaufort in South Carolina for crew training purposes, before heading back home last year.

Given that the infrastructure, such as simulators and other support equipment at bases like Beaufort (or MCAS Yuma in Arizona where the Marines will also be basing F-35Bs at) will be specific to the F-35B, the case for the RSAF setting up a training detachment at these bases is stronger than anywhere else.

Training may also involve partnership programmes with friendly air forces that have purchased the F-35B variant – which on top of the US and UK, include Italy and Australia, [WUT!?] countries that the RSAF have very friendly ties with and have training spaces in or made training deployments to...."

There is a lot of wordy padding in this article and then we have this... OH Lordy Lordy Lordy… BAD MEME BAD MEME...
"...Another upgrade would entail the building of landing pads to allow F-35B pilots to conduct vertical landing training and operations on. These pads would need to be specially reinforced to withstand the intense downward heat generated by the F-35B’s powerful engine as it lands vertically…."

These pads are built to be able to last a long time and to have the surface ground down every now and then if required.
There is a thread of articles about this aspect of BUILDING an F-35B concrete VL Pad - worth finding if interested. I'm not.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2020, 15:34
by popcorn
I wonder if the RSAF will consider the feasibility of portable takeoff ramps?

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2020, 16:49
by steve2267
spazsinbad wrote:There is a lot of wordy padding in this article and then we have this... OH Lordy Lordy Lordy… BAD MEME BAD MEME...
"...Another upgrade would entail the building of landing pads to allow F-35B pilots to conduct vertical landing training and operations on. These pads would need to be specially reinforced to withstand the intense downward heat generated by the F-35B’s powerful engine as it lands vertically…."



As I recall, the problem with the concrete pads for VL was that the temperatures involved could lead to spalling (any residual moisture in the concrete essentially boiling off (bad analogy, I'm sure)). But it wasn't some insurmountable object. I believe Dr. Bevilaqua discussed the topic briefly in one of the videos floating around of his JSF lectures. He may have also discussed it in a paper somewhere. Bottom line: yes, the concrete needs to be "speshul," but it is a non-issue.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2020, 17:01
by spazsinbad
I'll repeat the phrase I do not like: "... intense downward heat …". This form of words is INTENSELY STUPID. Sure the pad is made SPESHFUL. One would hope so. As I said MADE SPESHUL TO LAST FOR A LONG TIME etc.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2020, 18:24
by steve2267
Copy all...

I will be sure to send out a speshul memo to all make-believe journos... advising them they need to replace "intense downward heat" :drool: with "very high heat flux." :devil:

But then they are likely to become confused about what the F-35 hot exhaust has to do with a flux capacitor.

Actually, I dare anyone to ask the following question of an F-35B pilot if any inane aerospace reporters are within earshot:

"Is the extremely intense heat caused by the heat flux capacitor, or is it a function of the oscillation overthruster?"

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2020, 18:36
by spazsinbad
The INTENSELY HEATED B/S DETECTOR STINKS IF OVERHEATED needing SPESHUL (as in any concrete is tailored for purpose).

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2020, 03:53
by Corsair1963
Clearly, these 12 F-35B's are just the first batch of Lightning II's for the SAF. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if additional orders aren't placed for at least some F-35A's.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2020, 04:16
by spazsinbad
Text sent via e-mail from STRAITS TIMES recently - no other info except JMMS will be larger than first mooted years ago.
“...As Lockheed looks for signs of follow-on orders from Singapore, one leading indicator will be the status of the joint multi-mission ship (JMMS) that Singapore announced several years ago as a replacement for the 141m long Endurance-class landing ship tanks.

News on this project has since fizzled out, possibly because of the F-35 evaluation. The F-35B's ability to take off from and land on ships offers many possibilities for the JMMS, especially if the flight deck can be extended from bow to stern to offer an enlarged platform for STOVL-capable planes.

Choosing the B-variant from among three types in the F-35 family indicates that the JMMS design may well incorporate features that allow helicopters and the F-35B to fly from its deck, making this class of ship akin to a small aircraft carrier. So one can see how one defence procurement (F-35B) has a knock-on effect on the decision for another SAF platform (the JMMS). Singapore looks at defence acquisitions holistically, with this example underlining why Singapore has earned its stripes as a reference customer.”

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2020, 07:48
by weasel1962
As a file note, the 6 A-330 MRTTs that the RSAF ordered (or which at least 4 had been delivered by Aug 2019), each included 2 wing refuel probe in addition to the boom...the RSAF had already phased out all fighters equipped with a refuel probe earlier. Presumably with the FRU, the MRTT can refuel up to 3 F-35Bs at a time. A single MRTT carries enough fuel to fuel a dozen F-35Bs.

There would also be some non-US integration network requirements e.g. to Israeli G550s, Aster-30, Spyder SAM systems. The missiles fired from the Spyder SAM can be interchanged for use on board fighters. The F-16s are assumed to have integrated Derby, Python firing capability. It would be interesting to see if the F-35Bs would also be similarly integrated. There is also the option of the meteor which the British are integrating into their F-35Bs.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2020, 14:53
by notkent
weasel1962 wrote:https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/commentary/singapore-f-35-fighter-jet-air-force-base-stovl-training-pilots-12250968

This quoted is from the article not Weasel1962:

The F-35B variant, which Singapore has requested to purchase, has also a lift fan, essentially a second engine that directs additional thrust downwards, that allows the fighter jet to take off and land vertically, without the need for a long runway.



No it is essentially a lift fan that is powered off the single engine in the F-35B.

The sensor and networking capability alone makes the F-35 worth it.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2020, 20:01
by weasel1962
Yet in addition, Singapore received an industry offset when rolls Royce invested in a Trent engine manufacturing facility at seletar back in 2012.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2020, 10:42
by weasel1962
F-35 unit costs.png
Noted a lot of articles citing US$115m as the unit cost of the F-35B. They need to look at f-16.net before writing these stuff.

Per latest fast facts, lot 12-14 unit prices will be US$108m (12), US$104.8m (13), US$101.3m (14). At $100m a pop, that could be cheaper than the F-15SGs (I noted US$3.2b for 24). Not the most expensive fighter plane buy in Singapore's history.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2020, 11:09
by Corsair1963
It's also worth noting the F-35B and F-15SG carry about the same amount of internal fuel. (13,326 lbs vs 13,550 lbs) :wink:


Just one more thing often overlooked by the critics..... :?

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2020, 15:04
by marsavian
Corsair1963 wrote:It's also worth noting the F-35B and F-15SG carry about the same amount of internal fuel. (13,326 lbs vs 13,550 lbs) :wink:

Just one more thing often overlooked by the critics..... :?


F-15SG like all F-15E come with CFT as standard/fitted meaning a default fuel capacity of around 23,000 lbs in practice before any optional EFT are added so your observation while technically correct does not have much real world relevance unless CFT are purposely stripped in usage to unlock the Mach 2.3-2.5 performance which no F-15E user has purposely done yet.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/pro ... -aircraft/

Image

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2020, 16:27
by mixelflick
marsavian wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:It's also worth noting the F-35B and F-15SG carry about the same amount of internal fuel. (13,326 lbs vs 13,550 lbs) :wink:

Just one more thing often overlooked by the critics..... :?


F-15SG like all F-15E come with CFT as standard/fitted meaning a default fuel capacity of around 23,000 lbs in practice before any optional EFT are added so your observation while technically correct does not have much real world relevance unless CFT are purposely stripped in usage to unlock the Mach 2.3-2.5 performance which no F-15E user has purposely done yet.

https://www.airforce-technology.com/pro ... -aircraft/

Image


That's true... but practically speaking, doesn't the drag associated with CFT's/the Eagle's external stores bring its overall range down to the F-35B level? Actually, I take that back about the CFT's. Recall reading somewhere where the CFT's subsonic drag index is very low. It's only when the Eagle is supersonic where the drag of such is really noticed. Of course, once you start hanging bombs/sensor pods off of them...

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2020, 17:56
by sprstdlyscottsmn
What ends up eating the Mudhens range is weight. I wouldn't say it drops to F-35B ranges, but in spite of all the fuel it does not have a significant range advantage over an F-35A.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2020, 22:33
by marauder2048
weasel1962 wrote:
F-35 unit costs.png
Noted a lot of articles citing US$115m as the unit cost of the F-35B. They need to look at f-16.net before writing these stuff.

Per latest fast facts, lot 12-14 unit prices will be US$108m (12), US$104.8m (13), US$101.3m (14). At $100m a pop, that could be cheaper than the F-15SGs (I noted US$3.2b for 24). Not the most expensive fighter plane buy in Singapore's history.


There's the FMS surcharge and Singapore may not be eligible for the non-recurring cost waiver.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2020, 01:19
by weasel1962
Agreed on surcharges. Yet back in 2005 when the SG won the fighter comp, the Ks and Es were still priced at the premium $100m before the recent price drops. I doubt the Bs, including surcharges cost more than the F-15SGs, which also face surcharges. As important is that the F-15SG included significant weapons packages that the B doesn't need because all munitions acquired for the 15SG can be used by the B.

The B's EW supports mudhen's survivability and frees up the mudhen to do what it does best i.e. bombtruck.

Range circles showing the combat radius coverage
F-35B range.JPG

Operationally, the 15SG-35B range difference is not significant in Singapore's context. The operational battlefield, Singapore to the Kra peninsular is ~400nm i.e. preventing the same invasion route the Japanese took in ww2. Anything more, can be serviced by tankers. The B's range is also sufficient to cover the entire Malaccan straits and the relevant region of the South china sea up to the gulf of Thailand and down to the Sunda Straits.

I note that the standard USMC F-35 aviator training would normally result in carrier qualification. I presume it would be the same for international aviators going thru B training :)

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2020, 04:06
by Corsair1963
How the F-35 could be a game-changer for Singapore

By: Mike Yeo   


MELBOURNE, Australia — Singapore’s long-expected decision to acquire the Lockheed Martin-made F-35B Joint Strike Fighter could transform how it generates and sustains air power, with the tiny Southeast Asian island nation no longer reliant on long, vulnerable runways to operate an aircraft. The fifth-generation fighter jet’s short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing capability allows it to operate with little to no airstrip.


The jet’s advanced network-enabled capabilities would also be an added advantage for Singapore, which is working toward modernizing its military.


Following a lengthy evaluation process, Singapore last year selected the F-35 to replace its fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16C/D jets starting in 2030. And in early January 2020, the U.S. State Department cleared Singapore’s request for 12 F-35Bs, with four confirmed and an option for eight more.


Located at the southern end of the Strait of Malacca, near the southern end of the South China Sea and through which an estimated one-third of the world’s commercial shipping passes, Singapore’s economy is highly dependent on the global maritime trade.


Singapore is approximately 280 square miles, and its main island is only about 25 miles at its widest point. But while its military is a force to be reckoned with in the region, the country’s fleet of 60 F-16s and 40 Boeing F-15SG Eagle fighter jets still require relatively long runways. And that’s why the vulnerability of its runways will be put into sharper focus as the Republic of Singapore Air Force starts to retire its F-16s. In addition, Singapore plans to shut down one of its current fighter air bases to free up land for civilian purposes, leaving the country with just two fighter bases from the next decade onward.

Singapore’s acquisition of the F-35B will, however, reduce the Air Force’s dependence on long runways in the event of a conflict, during which an adversary might attempt to deny the use of runways. The short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing aircraft needs about 550 feet to take off (and it can of course land vertically).


Due to the shortage of training airspace at home, Singapore maintains several aircraft detachments for training in overseas, including in Australia, France and the United States. These include two fast-jet detachments at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona and Mountain Home Air Force Base in Idaho for training F-16 and F-15 crew respectively.


Should Singapore purchase the F-35B, it’s unlikely a training program for the stealthy fighter will take place at Luke AFB because the international training program there focuses on the conventional-takeoff-and-landing F-35A. Instead, Singapore will likely seek to embed a detachment with U.S. Marine Corps units flying the F-35B, which makes Marine Corps air stations Beaufort in South Carolina, Miramar in California or Yuma in Arizona as three possible locations.


In December, Singapore signed a memorandum of understanding with the U.S. for its fighter jets to conduct training on the Pacific island of Guam, which will see the long-term basing of a squadron of jets on the U.S. territory for training from 2029 onward.


Given Singapore’s procurement history, an F-35B purchase will likely be followed by more as the country incrementally replaces its F-16s. Singapore has traditionally used this procurement model with its fighter purchases to avoid budgetary peaks and troughs, as well as to maintain secrecy over defense acquisitions.

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... singapore/

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 09:31
by weasel1962
Not saying yes to F-35B on JMMS (but not saying no either)...only "there's a lot more to it." Typically cryptic.

Article: Singapore Airshow gives a first glimpse of what to expect from the F-35B ahead of RSAF assessment

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/si ... n-12417800

SINGAPORE: Like a scene from an Avengers movie, the F-35B fighter jet drifted to the middle of centre stage at the Singapore Airshow, its spinning lift fan and downwards rear nozzle drowning out the accompanying music.

The watching crowd trained their lenses on the F-35B as it moved slowly through the air, dramatically kicking up spouts of water. After all, this is the first time the jet is performing aerobatics in Singapore.

And then the F-35B, all 18,000kg of it, stopped in mid-air.

In January, the United States approved the sale of up to 12 F-35Bs to Singapore at an estimated cost of US$2.75 billion (S$3.71 billion), pending approval from Congress. This would make it the most expensive warplane Singapore has bought.

But experts have called the decision prudent, given the F-35B's ability to take off from shorter runways and land vertically. The hovering display on Sunday (Feb 9) at the airshow was a demonstration of this capability.

This capability will allow land-scarce Singapore to launch the jets from smaller air bases with shorter runways and alternative facilities like temporary highway airstrips, analysts have said.

Singapore's Defence Ministry has asked to buy four F-35Bs first to assess the jet's capabilities and suitability before deciding on a full fleet.

"The F-35Bs are the same birds that we put in a request for to Congress. And if no objections from Congress, then we can put up the orders," Defence Minister Ng Eng Hen told reporters on Friday.

"Of course, it’s slightly jumping the gun because even if it's approved (by Congress), it will be a number of years before the F-35s (get here).

"First, we get them to train in US and then bring them back to Singapore. But at least for this coming week, Singaporeans can get to see the F-35s in the air."

Singaporeans will also be able to witness other aspects of the fifth-generation fighter jet when it takes to the skies on the public days of the airshow from Feb 15 to 16.

After the F-35B pulled a series of tight turns, vertical climbs and high-speed passes during its display, it flew past centre stage with its internal weapons bay doors open. This bay conceals the fighter's bombs and missiles, and is one aspect of why it is extremely stealthy.

In contrast, Singapore's current warplanes, the fourth-generation F-15SG and F-16C/D, carry their weapons externally, increasing their radar signature. The F-35Bs are expected to replace the F-16s.

"HEAVYWEIGHT FIGHTER NOT MOVING IN THE SKY"

Still, F-35B pilot Lieutenant Colonel Michael Rountree, 41, said the capability airshow visitors would be most interested in is the short take-off vertical landing.

"You will see the aircraft hover centre stage, point at you and translate left and right and front and back," he said on Friday.

"So you can see a 40,000-pound heavyweight fighter not moving in the sky, which is a pretty incredible feat for a modern fighter which can also fly supersonic."

Lt Col Rountree, commanding officer of the Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 121, said the F-35B is easier to land vertically than the AV-8B Harrier, the jet he used to fly.

"While the vertical landing capability of the Harrier is very much a manual procedure, this aircraft is completely computer-controlled," he explained. "My inputs are totally different than I did with the Harrier, so it makes it very easy to land – it’s highly mechanised and very reliable."

This makes the jet very successful at landing on warships, he continued.

"We can recover this aircraft every time safely and reliably, and I’d say that is one of the major differences that makes it a real pleasure flying this aircraft," he stated.

COULD SINGAPORE LAND THE F-35B ON ITS WARSHIPS?

Perhaps it is no surprise then that defence observers have suggested that Singapore might land its F-35Bs on another of its future assets, the Republic of Singapore Navy's (RSN) joint multi mission ship (JMMS).

The JMMS will replace the RSN's current 141m-long, 6,000-tonne landing ships tank (LST) from 2020, and like its predecessor be deployed in disaster relief and counter piracy operations.

Reports have said the larger JMMS might feature a straight-through flight deck, with landing spots for helicopters and possibly the F-35Bs.

But in a July 2018 interview with CNA, the RSN’s head of naval operations Rear-Admiral (RADM) Cheong Kwok Chien played down these suggestions.

"No pilot likes to take off from a ship when the runway is only 50m," he said. "So even for a ship of this size, the runway – the flat deck that it has behind – maybe is only like 70m to 80m."

A 2015 US Department of Defense report estimated that the F-35B can take-off with a typical load of fuel and weapons from runways as short as 170m.

RADM Cheong said "size is maybe the lowest denominator to fulfill" when it comes to designing ships that can carry warplanes, noting that the deck must be strong enough to withstand their weight and hot afterburners.

"A typical aircraft carrier is much bigger than this, much thicker than this, and it has all its control and launch and recovery systems," he added of the JMMS.

"And then you also need all the radars, the control tower, the whole communications suite to talk to the aircraft. So you can’t really say a car is a Ferrari just because it’s loud – there’s a lot more to it."

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 09:50
by spazsinbad
OMG "...hot afterburners..." NOT again. Will this ever end? HELLS BELLS [hell's bells. An exclamation of frustration or surprise. A shortened form of the phrase "hell's bells and buckets of blood."]

AC/DC - Hells Bells (Official Music Video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etAIpkdhU9Q


Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 09:57
by weasel1962
I suppose an afterburner would not be hot after the engine is switched off, and cooled.....

Remember some of these navy folks have never operated a jet fighter...ever. No afterburners on helos (at least not yet).

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 10:03
by spazsinbad
weasel1962 wrote:I suppose an afterburner would not be hot after the engine is switched off, and cooled..... Remember some of these navy folks have never operated a jet fighter...ever. No afterburners on helos (at least not yet).

:shock: :roll: :devil: Our WESSEX 31Bs [WETTEX] had AFTER BURNERS & even BEFORE BURNERS - this pic proves it. :doh: :twisted: :shock:

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 10:24
by weasel1962
I would stand corrected if I had not fallen off my chair after seeing the pic... :shock:

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 10:28
by spazsinbad
The WETTEX suffered from WET STARTS - the pilots suffered from SKID Marks in their DERPANTS. :mrgreen: VAMPIRES every now and then had a WETStart especially when the wind was up their BTM (recall the F-35A fire with such condition).

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 21:20
by spazsinbad
Singapore F-35 Buy Moves Closer
11 Feb 2020 Chris Pocock

"...Singapore joined the F-35 program in 2003, paying to become a Security Cooperation Participant. This enabled it to receive detailed program status and classified performance information. But it was not until March last year that Defence Minister Dr. Ng Eng Hen announced that it would purchase four jets “for evaluation,” with an option for eight more. A letter of interest followed, and the purchase moved forward last month when the Pentagon sent the formal notification of the proposed sale to Congress.

The notification confirmed for the first time that the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) had requested the F-35B Short Take-Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) version....

...it is entirely possible that the RSAF will have some or all of its F-35 pilots trained for carrier operations. They will most likely undertake flight training at the USMC air station Beaufort, South Carolina, where all prospective F-35B pilots go. They might then practice such operations closer to home because the USMC’s assault ships sometimes visit Singapore.

The notification to Congress estimated the total procurement cost at $2.75 billion. That includes all 12 jets as well as the substantial package required to acquire the sophisticated fifth-generation capability. The sale will include 13 Pratt & Whitney F135 engines; weapons employment capability; the fighter’s command, control, communication, computers, and intelligence/communication, navigation, and identification (C4I/CNI) system; spare and repair parts; support and test equipment; training; the autonomic logistics information system (ALIS); and U.S. government and contractor support services.

Defence Minister Ng said last March that the unit price of an F-35 was similar to that of Singapore’s F-15SG Strike Eagles. And the total cost of ownership, including through-life maintenance, was close to that for the Boeing jet, he added.

One interesting aspect of this sale is the extent to which Singapore might be allowed to modify and support the jets to its own requirements. The U.S. government allowed the RSAF to add an Israeli mission computer and electronic warfare system to its F-16s. It also allowed the RSAF to write its own operational flight programs (OFPs).

The notification states that “electronic warfare systems” are included in the sale, plus access to the “reprogramming center.” As a Security Cooperation Participant already, the RSAF will be aware of some problems that have arisen with the F-35 OFPs, such as a failure to synchronize those in the jets with those in the simulators. There have also been delays in updating the mission data files, a library of enemy threats to the aircraft that feed into the fighter’s advanced sensor recognition and data fusion capability.

Israel has been allowed to add some unique avionics and electronic warfare systems to its F-35s. A source in the U.S. with access to the program told AIN that it was possible that Singapore would be allowed similar privileges."

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ves-closer

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2020, 01:09
by weasel1962
The MDE component of the notice is $1.625b and the remainder being....non-MDE. This equates to ~$135m per plane (frame + engine).

In Poland's buy, the MDE was $4.1b in the notice which would give a guide post on what the Singapore contract value would roughly be...

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2020, 20:06
by spazsinbad
F-35 gets thumbs up from Singapore’s air chief
14 Feb 2020 Mike Yeo

"SINGAPORE — Singapore’s Air Force chief has given his vote of confidence in the Lockheed Martin F-35 fighter jet amid the country’s efforts to buy new fifth-generation aircraft. However, he acknowledged that challenges still remain in the acquisition process, particularly in regard to logistics.

In a written reply to questions by the media, Maj. Gen. Kelvin Khong said the Republic of Singapore Air Force “is convinced that the F-35 program has matured to a stage where confidence in the delivery of a cost-effective 5th Generation is high.”

He added that based on the service’s own estimates, “the total cost of acquiring and operating an F-35B over the life of the aircraft would be comparable” to that of Singapore’s existing Boeing F-15SGs.

He also revealed that the first four F-35Bs that Singapore is looking to buy would be located in the continental United States for initial training and testing, with ongoing discussions taking place between both countries for more specific locations. The testing and evaluation phase will include the ability to integrate the F-35 into the RSAF’s own war-fighting systems.

Khong said that although most of the F-35’s developmental issues have been resolved in recent years, “some work still needs to be done on issues like logistics sustainment for the aircraft,” describing an August 2019 article in the New York Times Magazine by Defense News’ air warfare reporter, Valerie Insinna, as a “fair representation of the F-35 program.”

Khong also stressed that Singapore chose to go after the F-35 following “careful consideration.” [WOW all the other buyers just kicked the freakin' tyres - no exaggeration there at all] He noted that the country had been a security cooperation participant in the F-35 program since 2004 “to better understand the program’s development,” during which Singapore had access to high-fidelity simulators...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... air-chief/

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2020, 20:15
by spazsinbad
Singapore air force confronts rapidly changing world
18 Feb 2020 Greg Waldron

"The Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) is committed to continually updating its combat power, with efficiency as a focus, given the small nation’s manpower limitations....

...In regard to traditional fixed-wing aircraft, he notes that Singapore’s long-awaited decision to order the F-35B was predicated on the growing maturity of the platform. While challenges remain around areas such as the aircraft’s logistics system, the RSAF estimates that the acquisition and operating costs will be equivalent to those of the F-15SG.

Initially Singapore will receive four examples out of a total possible commitment for 12. The first four aircraft will be deployed not in Singapore, but in the “continental USA” for evaluation work. Kong added that the type’s short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) capability is important given land limitations in Singapore...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/singapore- ... 98.article

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2020, 00:26
by weasel1962
Yesterday was Singapore's budget which saw the defense budget hiked up to ~US$11b.

Re: Singapore F-35 selection

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2020, 18:31
by spazsinbad
RSAF Chief: Upgraded F-16s, Maritime Patrol and New UAVs
19 Feb 2020 Chen Chuanren

"...Regarding the F-35B, Singapore is awaiting the letter of offer and acceptance from the U.S. government. The first four jets will stay in CONUS for initial training and testing, and a suitable location for training is under discussion.

With the exception of logistical sustainment, Khong said that most of the technical issues are resolved and that the price of the aircraft has fallen 40 percent since 2010. The ministry estimates that the costs of procuring and operating the F-35B are comparable to those of the F-15SG, which the RSAF has flown for more than 10 years."

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... d-new-uavs