Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

krorvik

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 636
  • Joined: 12 Sep 2015, 15:26

Unread post29 Nov 2015, 11:18

optimist wrote:I think that A$90m has gone to around A$120 flyaway, with the current exchange rate


*Current* snapshot exhange rates mean very little in the face of multiyear large aquisitions. The buy is spread out, and that also means the cost will be smoothed out by fluctuations in the exchange rate.

This is something the fighter programs are taking into evalutaion - in both directions.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 23559
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post29 Nov 2015, 12:44

Dated 2012 and there may well be a more up to date source but this'll do for now from a REGULAR F-35 AUDIT REPORT:

http://www.anao.gov.au/~/media/Files/Audit Reports/2012 2013/Audit Report 6/201213 Audit Report No 6 OCRed.pdf

I will guess this report has been referenced here before - with the budget info - I'm just going to add this graphic now...

Search this F-35 Section of this forum using this string (+ included): +audit +report +anao There will be gems....

YES one may wonder: wot does the graphic have to do with the budget? Search the PDF mentioned using the word 'budget' and or download / follow the search hits material at your leisure. Me? It is getting late 2300 and it has been a long day. Wot caught my eye for the graphic was the level of detail shown and I'll use it in my PDFs so adding it here is just a bonus.

Meanwhile here is another SMH estimate of the cost in 2014 [$95 Bill + Engine - Weapons]:
Australia to buy 58 Joint Strike Fighters
22 Apr 2014 David Wroe & Mark Kenny

"...Defence Minister David Johnston said on Wednesday that the purchase would give Australia’s air combat capability "the sort of technological edge that it must continue to have".

He defended the billions in spending - less than a month before Treasurer Joe Hockey delivers a budget with expected cuts to health and welfare, saying the money for the fighters had been put aside since the government’s initial order of 14 aircraft.

"The money is contained within the defence budget in the outyears of the budget and beyond," Senator Johnston told ABC radio. "We are committed to defending Australia with the best available platforms. This clearly is a regionally dominant and cutting-edge platform that will see Australia right out to 2050."

Opposition leader Bill Shorten backed the purchase, saying the previous Labor government believed the Joint Strike Fighter was the "right way to go".

When asked if the order should be scaled back given the tough budget climate, Mr Shorten said the fighter program was a long term-investment.

"These defence purchases are necessary for our forward security plans over a number of decades," Mr Shorten [Major Party Labor Opposition Leader] told ABC radio.

The lifetime cost of the new batch of fighters, which includes maintenance, weapons and spares, will reach $12.4 billion, making it one of Australia's most expensive ever military acquisitions alongside the Collins Class submarine and the long-retired aircraft carriers. [SOB] :shock:

The announcement is also a win for the RAAF bases at Williamtown in NSW and Tindal in the Northern Territory, which will be the home bases for the squadrons. They will need about $1.6 billion in new facilities and infrastructure, Mr Abbott will announce...."

...Cost per plane about $95 million, not including weapons

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/ ... zqxvr.html

BTW the fine print in the graphic below will be much more readable when it is left mouse clicked and hit the 'F11' key.
Attachments
F-35materialDeliverySchedule2012DMO.gif
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 23559
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post29 Nov 2015, 13:34

There is no date on this NOW very old article - it should be obvious it has been written c.2002 I guess.... BestRedSource NOW an 8 Page PDF made from the URL below is attached. NOTE the use of the word 'budget' throughout.
The case for the JSF
c.2002 Chief of Air Force CAF
CAF Air Marshal Angus Houston outlines the best choice for our next frontline combat aircraft

"...Our involvement in systems analysis
WE HAVE a great deal of absolute information about the JSF capability that the US intends to release to us.

About 30 Defence Science and Technology Organisation scientists are working independently on analysing JSF capability to ensure it will deliver what we need.

This will allow the government to be fully informed when the time comes to make an acquisition decision. As a partner in the project, our pilots and scientists have had the opportunity to participate in the structured systems analysis and evaluation being conducted in a dedicated simulation facility in the US.

This facility uses a combination of computer modelling and man-in-the-loop simulations of operational scenarios and is loaded with the latest JSF performance data as the system development phase proceeds.

The simulations are also loaded with the threat systems of greatest interest to us.

Our participation means we are able to monitor how the project is developing in considerable detail, access a great deal of technical information, and refine our independent assessments of the JSF’s operational suitability to our concepts for operations.

Important set of numbers
THERE has been no government decision yet on the number of aircraft to be acquired under the new air combat capability project.

The 2000 Defence White Paper and subsequent reviews propose the acquisition of “up to 100 aircraft”, and the Defence Capability Plan 2004-2014 identifies a notional budget for the project of $11.5bn to $15.5bn.

But much intensive operational analysis and force balance studies remain to be done before a final decision on numbers will be made.

Key issues to be taken into account in determining the number of aircraft to be acquired include:

• the balance between numbers of JSF, AEW&C and air-to-air refuelling (AAR) aircraft, the aim being to achieve the most cost-effective force structure overall (noting that AEW&C and AAR aircraft make significant contributions even when not supporting combat aircraft);

• the contribution from other force elements such as the new Air Warfare Destroyers; [so the RAAF can squeeze out of Fleet Air Defence role?]

• the number of geographic areas that may need to be supported simultaneously;

• potential for concurrent air superiority, strike (maritime and land) and ground support operations – noting that as a true multi-role aircraft the JSF can perform all tasks, even on the same mission;

• rotation of forces, which recent operational experience has shown is a major issue;

• aircraft required in a maintenance pool, expected to be low given the JSF’s expected reliability and minimal deeper maintenance requirements; and

• attrition aircraft to cover losses throughout the service life of the aircraft.

The JSF will require the Air Force to rethink the basis of squadron sizing, taking into account the increased endurance of the JSF and the expected increased availability of aircraft....

... It can be acquired in operationally meaningful numbers within the available budget...."

Source: http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafnews ... ture01.htm
Attachments
RAAF Reason F-35A CAF 2002 Air Force News 8 pp.pdf
(111.98 KiB) Downloaded 246 times
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Online

SpudmanWP

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 8399
  • Joined: 12 Oct 2006, 19:18
  • Location: California

Unread post01 Dec 2015, 00:50

The Motion to vote for a Review of the F-35 Australian program has been postponed till Dec 2nd.

"3 – Senator Whish-Wilson – Reference to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Committee (F-35 Lightning II (Joint Strike Fighter)) Postponed to 2 December 2015"

http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Bus ... ynamic_Red

Senator Whish-Wilson is the same one that was quoted in the articles leading up to the motion.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/ ... l9ubr.html
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
Offline

Corsair1963

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5868
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 04:14

Unread post01 Dec 2015, 07:19

SpudmanWP wrote:The Motion to vote for a Review of the F-35 Australian program has been postponed till Dec 2nd.

"3 – Senator Whish-Wilson – Reference to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Committee (F-35 Lightning II (Joint Strike Fighter)) Postponed to 2 December 2015"

http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Bus ... ynamic_Red

Senator Whish-Wilson is the same one that was quoted in the articles leading up to the motion.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/ ... l9ubr.html


I am sure with can thank Trudeau for this............ :doh:
Offline

optimist

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 996
  • Joined: 20 Nov 2014, 03:34
  • Location: australia

Unread post01 Dec 2015, 10:29

SpudmanWP wrote:The Motion to vote for a Review of the F-35 Australian program has been postponed till Dec 2nd.

"3 – Senator Whish-Wilson – Reference to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Committee (F-35 Lightning II (Joint Strike Fighter)) Postponed to 2 December 2015"

http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Bus ... ynamic_Red

Senator Whish-Wilson is the same one that was quoted in the articles leading up to the motion.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/ ... l9ubr.html

It really is a non-event from a very minority party, senator. Both the Gov and opposition fully support the F35
Aussie fanboy
Online

SpudmanWP

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 8399
  • Joined: 12 Oct 2006, 19:18
  • Location: California

Unread post01 Dec 2015, 16:56

I know it's a non-event, I just posted it due to teh expected vote on Monday and the press not talking about the postponement.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
Offline

meatshield

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 99
  • Joined: 28 Feb 2011, 03:09
  • Location: QLD

Unread post02 Dec 2015, 00:58

SpudmanWP wrote:I know it's a non-event, I just posted it due to teh expected vote on Monday and the press not talking about the postponement.


The greens party are a bunch of left wing nut jobs. If elected to run the country they would slash defence spending and then buy lots of white flags.

Rant over...... :bang:
Last edited by meatshield on 02 Dec 2015, 08:18, edited 1 time in total.
Offline

Corsair1963

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5868
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 04:14

Unread post02 Dec 2015, 06:02

Still adds Aid and Comfort to the ENEMY! :?
Offline
User avatar

popcorn

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 7707
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

Unread post02 Dec 2015, 06:20

Corsair1963 wrote:Still adds Aid and Comfort to the ENEMY! :?

Only to the ABJSF crowd..
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
Offline

Corsair1963

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5868
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 04:14

Unread post02 Dec 2015, 07:30

popcorn wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Still adds Aid and Comfort to the ENEMY! :?

Only to the ABJSF crowd..



Like I said..... :wink:
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 23559
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post02 Dec 2015, 23:24

Allo Allo Allo - Well Well Well... This is embarrassment to say the least. What is the LABOR Party playing at here? Politics is a strange bidness indeed AND as the LIBERAL Senator says "The Labor Party should be ashamed". PDF page is attached.
COMMITTEES - Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Committee Reference
02 Dec 2015 HANSARD

"...Senator WHISH-WILSON (Tasmania) (15:56): I, and also on behalf of Senator Lambie and Senator Xenophon, move:
That the following matter be referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Committee for inquiry and report by 1 May 2016:
The planned acquisition of the F-35 Lightning II (Joint Strike Fighter), with particular reference to:
(a) the future air defence needs That the aircraft is intended to fulfil;
(b) the cost and benefits of the program to Australia, including industrial costs and benefits received and forecast;
(c) changes in the acquisition timeline;
(d) the performance of the aircraft in testing;
(e) potential alternatives to the Joint Strike Fighter; and
(f) any other related matters.

Senator CONROY (Victoria—Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (15:57): I seek leave to speak for a minute on this motion.
Leave granted.

Senator CONROY: While Labor strongly support the right of the Senate to inquire into a whole range of issues, we do not want the fact that Labor are supporting this Senate inquiry to remotely suggest that Labor do not fully support Australia's participation in the F35 project. We are strongly behind it, we have a long record of being strongly behind it and we continue to support Australia's participation in this project. [wot a snide snivelling turdburger]

Senator RYAN (Victoria—Assistant Cabinet Secretary) (15:57): I seek leave to make a short statement.
The PRESIDENT: Leave is granted for one minute.
Senator RYAN: The government does not support this motion, and, despite what Senator Conroy just stated to the chamber, the fact that the opposition is doing so is embarrassing. Successive Australian governments have been committed to the JSF program, including in Labor's 2009 and 2013 white papers.
Senator Conroy: [LABOR] We continue to be.


The PRESIDENT: Order on my left!
Senator RYAN: Both the Leader of the Opposition and the shadow minister, Senator Conroy, have made strong statements supporting the JSF. To date, Australian industry has secured contracts valued at US$448 million. We estimate that Australian industry will win at least US$1.5 billion in JSF related orders. This creates jobs. Last week the UK confirmed their program of 138 jets and will procure JSF earlier than planned. The government is committed to acquiring a fifth-generation JSF aircraft and the significant opportunities it provides for Australian industry and suspects that this is another deal whereby a vote in the Senate is being used for other purposes.

Senator WHISH-WILSON (Tasmania) (15:58): I seek leave to make a short statement.
The PRESIDENT: Leave is granted for one minute.

Senator WHISH-WILSON: I respect the Labor Party and thank them for their support in this inquiry. This is simply about us doing our job—asking questions about what was the largest defence acquisition in this nation's history: $25 billion for a strategic capacity around Joint Strike Fighters that many people question. There are a number of stakeholders across this public debate. This is an opportunity to scrutinise all aspects of this acquisition of the F-35, and it is simply us doing our jobs. I do not like the dog whistle politics from the government that goes with this. This is what we were elected to do and I think it is an opportunity for everybody to put the facts on the table and let the Senate look into this acquisition. It is worth pointing out that there has not been any public scrutiny of this. Our previous Prime Minister doubled down on this, financing 70 new aircraft with no warning at all. It is time we had a good look at this acquisition.
The PRESIDENT: The question is that the motion moved by Senator Whish-Wilson be agreed to.
The Senate divided. [16:04]

(The President—Senator Parry)
Ayes ...................... 37
Noes ...................... 27
Majority ................. 10 "

Source: http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/dow ... tion%2Fpdf (1.5Mb)
Attachments
F-35 Inquiry Go Ahead Voted 02 Dec 2015 Senate_2015_12_02_3883.pdf
(159.54 KiB) Downloaded 234 times
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

meatshield

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 99
  • Joined: 28 Feb 2011, 03:09
  • Location: QLD

Unread post03 Dec 2015, 00:07

This is a stunt. The labor party on the one hand supports the f35 and then they go and do this. It defies description :bang:
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 23559
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post03 Dec 2015, 00:24

:devil: Yeah - those Labor cretinous bastards. However some good is likely to come of it with the Labor and Liberals actually for the purchase, they should provide good info - and reasonings for it - from their respective times in government. I hope so anyway so as to snaffle up the good stuff. :mrgreen:
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

meatshield

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 99
  • Joined: 28 Feb 2011, 03:09
  • Location: QLD

Unread post03 Dec 2015, 00:44

They already have the info. I've seen the old co of the raaf fronting numerous senate hearings trying to explain how bad it was to go up against a 5th gen aircraft in a 4th gen aircraft. How many times do they have to say the same thing..... :doh:
PreviousNext

Return to Program and politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests