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Re: Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2018, 14:35
by magitsu
optimist wrote:one was for 100 units and one is for 72 units. The last time I looked, our budget is an all up price including runways, hangers and crowns, so it can officially be a hanger queen. I think these LM sheds may blow the budget, I haven't seen them mentioned before.

Does it need anything different in terms of hangars when transitioning from Hornets, or is it just because RAAF is activating some new sites? Norway's one is similarly expensive, but they are building a base from a rather quiet civilian airfield.

Re: Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2018, 14:54
by spazsinbad
I don't know about these 'hangers' - HANGARS is the word. Meanwhile there is another ANAO report also mentioned in this thread: https://www.anao.gov.au/sites/g/files/n ... 17_40a.pdf
..."1.2 Current Status Cost Performance
In-year [2016]
In-year expenditure was approximately one per cent over budget (an overspend of $2.9m). The major contributor to the variance was due to the unpredictability of expenditure forecasts for F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) contracted activity.

Project Financial Assurance Statement
As at 30 June 2016, Project AIR 6000 Phase 2A/2B has reviewed the approved scope and budget for those elements required to be delivered by the project. Having reviewed the current financial and contractual obligations of the project, current known risks and estimated future expenditure, Defence considers, as at the reporting date, there is sufficient budget remaining for the project to complete against the agreed scope...."


OF COURSE the URL for the PDF does not work now - ffsake so I'll make my own PDF & attach it below. Here is another URL for 'major projects' but it is too late for me to read at moment. https://www.anao.gov.au/file/21541/down ... n=EwDhezSL (14Mb PDF)

The attached PDF has been made into a 2 page spread so in effect there are 20 single pages in this 10 page spread. To minimize file size instead of 10Mb when reprinted (killing links) the size is as seen 242Kb.

There is the 18 page extract (larger file size 0.66Mb) [easier to read as single pages] on page 31 of this thread: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=23043&p=363595&hilit=ANAO_Report_2016+2017_40a#p363595

Re: Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2018, 23:30
by operaaperta
Does it need anything different in terms of hangars when transitioning from Hornets, or is it just because RAAF is activating some new sites? Norway's one is similarly expensive, but they are building a base from a rather quiet civilian airfield.


It’s all happening just a stones throw from existing Hornet infrastructure in both Tindal and Williamtown. No doubt the existing hangars and Flightline could have been upgraded, but considering the transition period when two types would have to operate simultaneously, the age of existing infrastructure not meeting current OHS and building requirements and also a lack of modern IT infrastructure it was probably cheaper to start from scratch. More info at the link below.

http://www.defence.gov.au/id/Air6000/Default.asp

Re: Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2018, 00:03
by popcorn
Hangering around...

Re: Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2018, 00:16
by spazsinbad
USMC must be envious - RAAF sheer looxury FOBs: "• Forward Operating Bases at RAAF Bases, Townsville (QLD), Darwin(NT), Curtin(WA), Scherger(QLD), Learmonth (WA) and Pearce(WA)." http://www.defence.gov.au/id/Air6000/Default.asp

Re: Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2018, 09:41
by element1loop
According to RBA's inflation calculator, $15.5 billion AUD in 2005 dollars is now equal to $20,767,851,762 AUD, in 2017 dollars.

We can't get 2018 figures until 2018 is over, so I used 2005 to 2017 as a proxy for what the figure should be. It'll be very close to correct.

https://www.rba.gov.au/calculator/annualDecimal.html

As I see it, before facilities etc., were deducted, there should have been about 9 billion AUD left in the budget, in 2018 dollars.

Did the support 'stuff' really cost that much?

Are we to believe $15.5 billion in 2006 AUD was supposed to cover full operational life-cycle costs or something?

Time to cough up the other 28 jets Canberra.

Re: Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2018, 19:38
by optimist
The RAAF went to gov, saying they didn't need more than the 16b then year money. What was fuzzed was that the difference is that the 16b was for 100 units, now it's for 72 units. I'm not certain that other procurement costs are apple for apple now. The old DMO reports will have some of the info on costing. It was a political move from the gov through the raaf, to keep opposition under control.

Re: Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 03:01
by element1loop
Current RAAF site F-35A page says:

" ... Australia has committed to 72 F-35A aircraft for three operational squadrons at RAAF Base Williamtown and RAAF Base Tindal, and a training squadron at RAAF Base Williamtown.

In the future, a fourth operational squadron will be considered for RAAF Base Amberley, for a total of 100 F-35A aircraft.
..."

https://www.airforce.gov.au/technology/ ... ghtning-ii

----

They need to get to firming that up more tangibly.

It seems it is indeed Canbera that's asleep and needs a good nudge to snap out of it.

This should not be regarded as just another shoddy political tool for pre-election rah-rah security BS.

Re: Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 03:19
by spazsinbad
Don't FOB me off with this "damaged by UV" CorBlimeyGov what about Bs & Cs on FLAT DECKS at SEA?! FACTOR 100 req'd.
But I'll understand the HEAT protection required - sad that the USN has not thought of this for their flat decks eh. :doh:
Facilities Requirements for the New Air Combat Capability RAAF Base Williamtown, NSW
Jun 2014 OzParlPubWerks

"...Aircraft Shelters. The F-35A aircraft require secure parking positions when not being flown or deployed on exercises. As the surface coating of the aircraft is susceptible to damage from prolonged exposure to ultra-violent radiation, the aircraft must be protected from direct sunlight. A further characteristic of the F-35A that is common to most fighter aircraft is the exposed cockpit glass canopy. When stationary, direct sunlight can cause the temperatures in the cockpit to rise to uncomfortable temperatures, adversely affecting maintenance and operations. [Fair Cop Guv] Conversely, during wet weather the cockpit must be protected from water inundation. Accordingly, the aircraft must be sheltered from both sunlight and weather.

36. Forward Operating Bases. The deployable mission planning facilities and simulators described earlier will support the deployment of the aircraft to forward operating bases for training and operations. USA security requirements apply to these modules, requiring protection from unauthorised access. Many of the Forward Operating Bases are characterised by high temperatures or torrential downpours at times. Crew comfort considerations and the need to protect the equipment mean that the deployable mission planning facilities need to be protected from the extremes of the weather....”

Source: http://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ash ... bId=254100 (PDF 11.2Mb)

Re: Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 03:49
by element1loop
So a fully-enclosed insulated + aircon cyclone-rated shelter, with the berms, for each FOB park space?

But rear areas use regular covered parking?

Re: Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 03:54
by SpudmanWP
Looks like just a sun/weather shade ala Luke AFB.

Image

Re: Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 04:21
by spazsinbad
Here comes the FOB TINDAL: http://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ash ... bId=254100 (PDF 11.4Mb)

Re: Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 05:15
by optimist
element1loop wrote:Current RAAF site F-35A page says:

" ... Australia has committed to 72 F-35A aircraft for three operational squadrons at RAAF Base Williamtown and RAAF Base Tindal, and a training squadron at RAAF Base Williamtown.

In the future, a fourth operational squadron will be considered for RAAF Base Amberley, for a total of 100 F-35A aircraft.
..."

https://www.airforce.gov.au/technology/ ... ghtning-ii

----

They need to get to firming that up more tangibly.

It seems it is indeed Canbera that's asleep and needs a good nudge to snap out of it.

This should not be regarded as just another shoddy political tool for pre-election rah-rah security BS.

They look at that for 2025. If the rhinos are retired then, as per the plan. A lot can change. Now we have the growlers, it isn't as expensive to keep the rhinos in the air. There are shared costs.

Re: Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 08:22
by operaaperta
So a fully-enclosed insulated + aircon cyclone-rated shelter, with the berms, for each FOB park space?

But rear areas use regular covered parking?


FOB scherger in pic below has dispersed aircraft shelters, Curtain has similar. There are also bunkers for maint and ops. The upgraded accomodation will be for aforementioned donga’s supplied by Varley.

Re: Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2018, 08:46
by element1loop
spazsinbad wrote:Here comes the FOB TINDAL: http://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ash ... bId=254100 (PDF 11.4Mb)


So Tindal being a permanent main operating base, not a FOB, as per your link's list of transient operating FOBs, means the parking area graphic is consistent with that.

" ... Forward Operating Bases at RAAF Bases, Townsville (QLD), Darwin(NT), Curtin(WA), Scherger(QLD), Learmonth (WA) and Pearce(WA). ..."

So basically they must remove the arced-roof sun shelters in bermed bays (as used by visiting F-111 and SH) and build new enclosed hangers in each bay.

So, 6 FOBs with maybe 12 hangered bays per FOB?

~72 hangers.