Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

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optimist

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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 02:32

And the ANTI-F-35Bs on our LHDs complain

Come on mate, it isn't anti-F-35B. The 2 LHD are fully committed now. Our LHD will operate under the umbrella of the USMC expeditionary units and USN. If China kicks off, Australia is a forwarded deploy base in the indo-pacific.

It will require at least a 3rd LHD and it's support ships and systems to get F-35B for australia. It's not funded in anyway, not even as a tabletop assessment of what would be required.
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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 02:44

"And the ANTI-F-35Bs on our LHDs complain about cost of 'upgrading' LHDs for F-35B use, even only from other countries."
optimist wrote:
And the ANTI-F-35Bs on our LHDs complain

Come on mate, it isn't anti-F-35B. The 2 LHD are fully committed now. Our LHD will operate under the umbrella of the USMC expeditionary units and USN. If China kicks off, Australia is a forwarded deploy base in the indo-pacific.

It will require at least a 3rd LHD and it's support ships and systems to get F-35B for australia. It's not funded in anyway, not even as a tabletop assessment of what would be required.

WAY to MISquote me indeed. The article even says TINbloodyBALL is being upgraded to "be integral to our Alliance with the United States". So why not upgrade our LHDs for the same reason? YOU GET REAL. Cross decking is friendly indeedy.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 03:20

optimist wrote:
And the ANTI-F-35Bs on our LHDs complain

Come on mate, it isn't anti-F-35B. The 2 LHD are fully committed now. Our LHD will operate under the umbrella of the USMC expeditionary units and USN. If China kicks off, Australia is a forwarded deploy base in the indo-pacific.

It will require at least a 3rd LHD and it's support ships and systems to get F-35B for australia. It's not funded in anyway, not even as a tabletop assessment of what would be required.



You can't count on the US to always having enough forces available for every scenario and in every region.


Honestly, I can't stand Trump but many Western Nations aren't doing enough!
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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 03:40

How about other local nations with F-35Bs: USMC, Japan, Korea & Singapore + other future possibilities for cross decking.
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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 03:45

I'm sorry if you feel misquoted. It wasn't my intention. I haven't met anyone anti-F-35B. It's been Yes it would be good, but and the but was the killer. I really haven't looked that far into it, since the ADF said no to the idea. In the very early planning of getting a LHD.

Cross decking was always on the table. For specific costs to get the LHD to be able to crossdeck or lilypad. I haven't seen anything on that. I assume they will work it out with the USMC with exercises. I think there are still a lot of questions just for this. A minimum requirement on the LHD? Is it just comms and the F-35B has everything needed onboard? Other than fuel, what ongoing footprint is needed? Any spare parts or rearmament suggested? There is a lot to work out.
Last edited by optimist on 26 Feb 2020, 04:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Conan

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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 03:50

spazsinbad wrote:"And the ANTI-F-35Bs on our LHDs complain about cost of 'upgrading' LHDs for F-35B use, even only from other countries."
optimist wrote:
And the ANTI-F-35Bs on our LHDs complain

Come on mate, it isn't anti-F-35B. The 2 LHD are fully committed now. Our LHD will operate under the umbrella of the USMC expeditionary units and USN. If China kicks off, Australia is a forwarded deploy base in the indo-pacific.

It will require at least a 3rd LHD and it's support ships and systems to get F-35B for australia. It's not funded in anyway, not even as a tabletop assessment of what would be required.

WAY to MISquote me indeed. The article even says TINbloodyBALL is being upgraded to "be integral to our Alliance with the United States". So why not upgrade our LHDs for the same reason? YOU GET REAL. Cross decking is friendly indeedy.


Because the purpose of Australia’s LHD’s is to deliver land forces across the ocean to places they need to go, not to fly fixed wing aircraft and therefore money spent on making them do so, would not only hurt the capability of these vessels in their primary roles, it would hurt the capability of ADF as a whole by reducing the capital investment funds we have to buy capability we actually need?

Whereas Tindal’s ONLY purpose is to fly fixed wing aircraft, as our primary air defence base...

Something along those lines I think you’ll find...
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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 04:08

Corsair1963 wrote:You can't count on the US to always having enough forces available for every scenario and in every region.
Honestly, I can't stand Trump but many Western Nations aren't doing enough!


But that is exactly what we do, we count on US as per our treaties. Other that very local actions, we work as part of a multi-national force. We come under the US nuclear umbrella. Or we would have out own Nukes. Australia has no plans for an aircraft carrier in the foreseeable time.

The US has garrisoned or influenced most areas of the world for select US interests and betterment. It's not some altruistic endeavor or a talking point for Trump
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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 04:11

'Conan' where ya bin?! I would agree with all of that I'm just making a SARCASTIC point that 'money is no object' for upgrading RAAF bases (TIN BALL will not be a bare base I'll guess) yet ALWAYS money is cited as the reason why making the LHDs able to operate F-35Bs is too expensive - even if these aircraft belong to another country - an ally even. However I have given up the idea that Australia (which may or may not include the Navy Army or RAAF) will ever operate the F-35B.

It is a shame that the Navy has reduced itself to operating HUGE ARMY buses in a benign environment - so be it.
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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 04:40

spazsinbad wrote:'Conan' where ya bin?! I would agree with all of that I'm just making a SARCASTIC point that 'money is no object' for upgrading RAAF bases (TIN BALL will not be a bare base I'll guess) yet ALWAYS money is cited as the reason why making the LHDs able to operate F-35Bs is too expensive - even if these aircraft belong to another country - an ally even. However I have given up the idea that Australia (which may or may not include the Navy Army or RAAF) will ever operate the F-35B.

It is a shame that the Navy has reduced itself to operating HUGE ARMY buses in a benign environment - so be it.


I haven't seen cost as the reason given for not having our own permanent F-35B on our 2 LHD. It's always been CONOPS requirements. It's been cost and requirement for not getting a 3rd LHD plus, for going with F-35B.

As to the costs to make LHD able to support some cross decking. I think that will be met, it has been talked about for years.
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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 05:13

optimist wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:You can't count on the US to always having enough forces available for every scenario and in every region.
Honestly, I can't stand Trump but many Western Nations aren't doing enough!


But that is exactly what we do, we count on US as per our treaties. Other that very local actions, we work as part of a multi-national force. We come under the US nuclear umbrella. Or we would have out own Nukes. Australia has no plans for an aircraft carrier in the foreseeable time.

The US has garrisoned or influenced most areas of the world for select US interests and betterment. It's not some altruistic endeavor or a talking point for Trump


You seem to be missing the point??? We all work together as allies and often operate side by side. Yet, you can't pick and choose every scenario and always have adequate forces available. Which, means all partners my have do their share in the collective defense....

Also, the treaties you mention work both ways! Otherwise, neither party would sign them..... :|
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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 05:16

Conan wrote:
Because the purpose of Australia’s LHD’s is to deliver land forces across the ocean to places they need to go, not to fly fixed wing aircraft and therefore money spent on making them do so, would not only hurt the capability of these vessels in their primary roles, it would hurt the capability of ADF as a whole by reducing the capital investment funds we have to buy capability we actually need?

Whereas Tindal’s ONLY purpose is to fly fixed wing aircraft, as our primary air defence base...

Something along those lines I think you’ll find...


So, your not responsible to protect your own forces??? Nor, provide assistance to other Allied Partners???
Last edited by Corsair1963 on 26 Feb 2020, 05:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 05:17

optimist wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:As to the costs to make LHD able to support some cross decking. I think that will be met, it has been talked about for years.

OK cost was ONE of the reasons. I am actually sick of talking about this aspect myself. However in this thread there is a quote from an LHD Captain to the effect that F-35Bs WILL NEVER land upon an LHD deck. I guess I'll have to find it now.

I'm puzzled by what the corsair is on about. In a NUTSHELL - Australia does their fair share - who is saying they don't?

I'll get to post this before another comment is posted. Interesting quote from the waybackOyonder Machina:
'spazmodicalSinPaticoNo' 28 May 2012 "Remove any inferences of talk in this article about 'ski jumps' on any USN flat decks. It is submitted here to illustrate how the ski jump installations will likely be used on the 'already ski jumped other country flat decks' including CVF. This article written in 2002 is not here for the purpose of encouraging ski jumps on any USN flat decks. That is a dead horse well flogged here by now (similar to F-35Bs on Oz LHDs dead horse idea gone to the great knackery in the sky')." :D viewtopic.php?f=58&t=15969&p=224204&hilit=captain+LHD%2A#p224204
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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 05:28

spazsinbad wrote:
optimist wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:As to the costs to make LHD able to support some cross decking. I think that will be met, it has been talked about for years.

OK cost was ONE of the reasons. I am actually sick of talking about this aspect myself. However in this thread there is a quote from an LHD Captain to the effect that F-35Bs WILL NEVER land upon an LHD deck. I guess I'll have to find it now.

I'm puzzled by what the corsair is on about. In a NUTSHELL - Australia does their fair share - who is saying they don't?

I'll get to post this before another comment is posted.



I was talking in "general terms" not specifically about Australia. Considering the size and budget of the ADF they do a good job in my opinion. Which, is not to say there is no room for improvement. Yet, you could say that about any nation...


Sorry, I should have clarified that! My apologies......... :(
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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 05:59

Australia could never defend itself from any of the major powers, without assistance.
Australia spends 1.9% the 8th highest of the top 15 and a lot of those don't have a carrier either. We have the 13th highest military cost with 14th GDP. On paper we are doing fine. There's a lot of high tech with well trained personnel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... penditures
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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 06:45

optimist wrote:Australia could never defend itself from any of the major powers, without assistance.
Australia spends 1.9% the 8th highest of the top 15 and a lot of those don't have a carrier either. We have the 13th highest military cost with 14th GDP. On paper we are doing fine. There's a lot of high tech with well trained personnel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... penditures



Respectable but that hardly means they can't or shouldn't spend more.....(the point)
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