Australian lawmakers confident in F-35's future

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mixelflick

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Unread post04 Nov 2018, 14:25

Simulations show an F22 can shoot down two Su35s. One Su35 can shoot down 2.4 F35s. And one Su35 can shoot down eight F18 Super Hornets.

Wouldn't you just LOVE to know where they got these, "simulations". So if an F-22 can shoot down 2 SU-35's (and it has 6 missiles plus the gun left), it can't shoot down more? One SU-35 can shoot down 2.3 F-35's? A plane it can't see?? And BTW even if true, it'll have to do a lot better than 2.4 to make up for the 200 they're going to produce, vs. our 3,000.

As far as 1 SU-35 being able to down 8 Super Hornets, I don't even know what to say. The SH has it all over the SU-35 in its AESA radar, better BVR weapons like AIM-120D and no slouch when it comes to nose pointing authority/the 9x when it comes to WVR. It also likely has a smaller RCS.

I really wish I got high before reading those stats.Would make them more believable...
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marsavian

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Unread post04 Nov 2018, 14:38

Usual years old negative misinformed F-35 opinion that's been held over the years. As it happens F-35 instantaneous maneuverability is pretty good backed up by very pointy AoA ability, it can stop point and zoom as good any of its more vaunted opposition. Australia has a pretty good air defense, powerful OTH radar backed up by SH, Growlers, F-35. Only J-20 would even stand a chance in a BVR face off like that. Australia is like a prickly Porcupine, even Lions stay clear as it's not worth the hassle, who would venture all that way and for what benefit ? Probably only if it became a serious US base in a conflict would it become a target.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post04 Nov 2018, 16:21

Dear OLD Bailey is a typical OLD FOGIE misinformed by years and years of ignorant prejudice that he has not bothered to update. With only info from spurious sources such as WickedPedia, he recalls often incorrectly, it is sad. There are other silly errors in some of his other silly misinformed opinions that are megaphoned by equally misinformed Australian media. Somehow Bailey got into the limelight on TV/newspapers where his colourful opinions provide entertainment; but taken seriously by equally misinformed readers - because like SPREY - 'Bailey used to be somebody some 40 odd years ago now'.

I'm from the same era as Bailey as I have pointed out, however I've spent countless hours informing myself, as best I can, about all the issues around the F-35 (particularly the Naval Aviation aspect). Just understand that Bailey has a lot of commercial airline time and that is what he should comment upon, leaving military aviation to those who understand it TODAY, with the information available today, & yes often that may mean SERVING MILITARY AVIATION PEOPLE OF TODAY.

Bailey must be at least in his early 70s, flying often with ex-military people who ARE better informed about the F-35 but it seems he has his views from his past that have not changed with the new circumstances of today, nor will those views change I'll guess - because like Sprey - Bailey likes the attention and contrary views suit the MURDOCH print Newspapers.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post04 Nov 2018, 21:00

And another thing 'bout BAILEY (ain't inside knowledge GRAND!?). Being already an officer he was in the Officers Mess at Point Cook with our 67 course Academy Graduate officers including Chris Mills (I was in the cadet pilot mess). Mills has written extensively on the now defunct APA website with KOPP & GOON so most likely that place was an info gathering point for the idiotic BAILEY views (from years ago now). MILLS is/was our well known CONTRARIAN, as pointed out in earlier posts Chris could argue the contrary point all day long when just a simple question was asked. We learnt NEVER to ask him directly - ask one of the other Academy Grads but he (although a nice chap) would butt in & we would butt out.

Furthermore another Academy Grad on No.67 Pilot course became the head of the RAAF JSF selection cabal all those years ago now. He was at our recent reunion (last year at Point Cook however I did not attend for health reasons). I would have luvved to have heard some inside goss on F-35 if he would spill (not likely to a civvie though). :( :roll: Mills did not go.

AVM Ray Conroy - Head Aerospace Systems Division (1990–91): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R ... r_marshals
Market analysis JSF Report prepared for members of Dutch Parliament
Sep 2009 JOBO

"...Media briefing “F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft Media Briefing on Capabilities” by Colonel Dwyer Dennis, JSF Program Office (US) in Australia on 19-Aug-2002. Present were also AVM Ray Conroy (Leader Australian negotations), Air Commodore John Harvey (Leader Integrated Project Team)…." page 108 of 136

Source: https://www.infodefensa.com/wp-content/ ... S_JOBO.pdf (1.3Mb)

Can't figure this website out for JSF brief by AVM Conroy: https://wenku.baidu.com/view/cb63850716 ... 8fc5a.html
Last edited by spazsinbad on 05 Nov 2018, 12:04, edited 1 time in total.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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hornetfinn

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Unread post05 Nov 2018, 10:30

knowan wrote:Older article from the same guy, also with The Australian, dated Feb 12 2016:


Thanks knowan, it's interesting how many such characters there seem to be in Australia...

F35 already behind as Russia leads arms race

As a former RAAF fighter pilot I am concerned for the future of our fighter force. We may be on track to procuring a very expensive lemon, one that is too costly to commit to battle, let alone a battlefield close air-support role where it would be exposed to defensive ground fire.


LOL and his solution is procuring even more expensive (life time costs) aircraft with much lower capabilities overall (Su-34 and Su-35)...

The Russians have been developing L-band radar, which reports suggest can detect a stealth fighter up to 169km away. Stealth was the great technological leap in air combat: the F117 Night Hawk of 1983 made an impressive debut in Baghdad.

But advances in technology are eating into its advantages. The F35 is also supposed to be stealthy, except when it is carrying external weapons. Reports suggest the Russian infra-red search and track will detect a F35 at 32km.


Even if true, those same L-band radars would detect Su-34 and Su-35 1690 km away... And same IRST system would detect Su-34/35 at least 100 km away. Of course F-35 carries IRST system which far outranges any Russian IRST system. Especially against Su-35/35 types. F-35 EOTS will likely detect Su-34/35 at least 200 km away with same probability as Su-35 OLS can detect F-35 32 km away.

The latest Sukhoi Flanker derivative Su35 — with its thrust-vectoring super manoeuvrability — renders obsolete conventional Western fourth-generation fighters that rely on aerodynamic manoeuvring.


LOL, how is thrust-vectoring super maneuverability somehow superior to aerodynamic super maneuverability if both can achieve similar results?

Also, the larger even more powerful Sukhoi PAK FA 50 is close to production.


Yeah, only a decade or two away...

Simulations show an F22 can shoot down two Su35s. One Su35 can shoot down 2.4 F35s. And one Su35 can shoot down eight F18 Super Hornets.


I think he is referring to these "simulations":
https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Bu ... s/sub5.pdf

These were made by REPSIM (basically APA). Basically Su-35 and F-35 fly towards each other without any combat maneuvering and Su-35 has no trouble tracking and engaging them. Somehow stealth and EW capabilities of F-35 are totally inconsequential and Russian missiles have higher hit probability because F-35 has so poor performance (yeah, right). Su-35s carry 3 times the missiles, so because they fly higher and faster and have better maneuverability in the "simulation" they will win.

In air combat, most missiles miss due to the high and near instantaneous turn rate that modern fighters are capable of. But the F35 performs poorly at such manoeuvres.


:roll: I bet he has never seen F-35 maneuver.

Once missiles miss, then the merge develops — known colloquially to fighter pilots as the dogfight or furball — where guns still reign and sustained turn rate is paramount. The F15 was the former top dog of this but thrust-vectoring is now the name of the game.

Unfortunately, our F35 is just too small, underpowered and too expensive.

The Russians have the ideal set-up: big, combat-capable Su34 Strike fighter bombers accompanied by big, powerful Su35 air superiority fighters.

In this game of war, size and numbers matter.


LOL, so bigger is better in WVR combat along with guns... :roll:

First he talks about how sustained turn rate is paramount and then tells us that TVC is now the name of the game? :roll:
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knowan

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Unread post07 Nov 2018, 07:13

hornetfinn wrote:Thanks knowan, it's interesting how many such characters there seem to be in Australia...


It looks like there's a few other articles published in 2018 by The Australian about the F-35 that aren't negative, but I can't get past the paywall on any of them.

"F-35s will take immense pressure off fighter pilots" https://www.theaustralian.com.au/busine ... 5b21431106

"F-35s have what it takes to hold their own" https://www.theaustralian.com.au/busine ... 4ef6cfc969

"No dog, the F-35 is a silent, long range assassin hiding in the dark" https://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinio ... 5d459c3953

"End of the dogfight as fighters, pilots evolve" https://www.theaustralian.com.au/busine ... 27ccb713ec
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weasel1962

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Unread post07 Nov 2018, 07:44

Trust me, not missing much.

Articles written by ex-RAAF pilot/B777 captain Byron Bailey basically states in the 1st article that the F-35 will not impose as much G-stress on pilots compared to legacy aircraft without citing how.

2nd article
http://www.thefifthcolumn.xyz/Forum/vie ... =40&page=9

4th article:
http://www.thefifthcolumn.xyz/Forum/vie ... =66&page=5

See Spaz' comment on Bailey on Nov 4 before he barks at me again for not citing his sources first.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post07 Nov 2018, 08:04

Thanks 'weasel1962' I have to stop insulting entire countries (at this stage details unknown) so I guess I should not insult anyone else - thank you for the links - they are always appreciated because I myself do not have to go searching for them.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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knowan

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Unread post07 Nov 2018, 10:52

weasel1962 wrote:Trust me, not missing much.

Articles written by ex-RAAF pilot/B777 captain Byron Bailey basically states in the 1st article that the F-35 will not impose as much G-stress on pilots compared to legacy aircraft without citing how.

2nd article
http://www.thefifthcolumn.xyz/Forum/vie ... =40&page=9

4th article:
http://www.thefifthcolumn.xyz/Forum/vie ... =66&page=5

See Spaz' comment on Bailey on Nov 4 before he barks at me again for not citing his sources first.


Thanks, they sound a bit less negative, but still misinformed and riddled with errors.
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Unread post10 Nov 2018, 22:05

RAAF Knuck 'RED' Sqdn Leader F-35A Under Training LUKE AFB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NimyONctBd0

RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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